View Full Version : Muzzle sweeps
alvincullumyork
10-07-12, 15:27
So I take a lot of new people shooting and make sure and go over the 4 rules. I also make it point to go over muzzle control and common mistakes that lead to pointing guns at people, reloads, malfunctions, etc. For a while it seemed like some people just didn't get it and no amount of correction would fix the muzzle sweeps. So I adopted a new rule from IDPA sweep yourself or some one else and your done for the day. This has made a huge difference.
Now here is the question. If you have your rifle slung and bend over to pick something up and the muzzle sweeps someone is it still a muzzle sweep? I have been treating it as one and even got called on doing it myself.
if there is a person behind the muzzle or the weapon is moving under the direction of a person and it is not in a carrier or holster it is a muzzle sweep.
the old 'over the shoulder' carry can be pretty iffy as folks consider it "holstered"... its not. even when carrying it over the shoulder I keep it on a very short leash and am very conscious of the muzzle direction.
of course I keep my guns loaded and ready when carrying so I dont have to "pretend" that it's loaded or dangerous.
Easy fix for a slung rifle and sweeping when picking something up, is to simply kneel instead of bending at the waist.
A muzzle crossing me is sure as shit sweeping, whether it's slung or holstered I don't really care.
DiabhailGadhar
10-07-12, 23:59
thats how we do it on a USMC range..no bending over..kneeling only keeping the butt stock at the 6 o'clock at all times when not actively shooting..
thats how we do it on a USMC range..no bending over..kneeling only keeping the butt stock at the 6 o'clock at all times when not actively shooting..
Really? Damn.
That's a good rule. It's one we follow when we're doing CCW classes.
I had a girl point a pistol not 14 inches from my face a couple months back.
If it happens to me or the other instructor, they forfeit that class and have to sign up for a later date.
DiabhailGadhar
10-08-12, 08:44
Really? Damn.
Yep. It actually makes since if you think about it. 100 people or so milling around with a about 100 or so rounds a piece picking up brass after every string of fire. With probably ten coaches/instructors total to monitor. First time they're logged as a safety violator, second time they are booted from the range. The highest level you can achieve is a marksman after that regardless of how you shoot and in the Corps that directly effects promotion and retention. We do not play with dumb ****s and loaded weapons...:D
Inkslinger
10-08-12, 09:47
That's a good rule. It's one we follow when we're doing CCW classes.
I had a girl point a pistol not 14 inches from my face a couple months back.
If it happens to me or the other instructor, they forfeit that class and have to sign up for a later date.
Where do you teach at? My buddy lives near Walensberg, he'd probably sign up for one of your classes.
If you watch any of my shooting vids, the car that we use is from the. Store.
It's in canon city, victory defense
Yep. It actually makes since if you think about it. 100 people or so milling around with a about 100 or so rounds a piece picking up brass after every string of fire. With probably ten coaches/instructors total to monitor. First time they're logged as a safety violator, second time they are booted from the range. The highest level you can achieve is a marksman after that regardless of how you shoot and in the Corps that directly effects promotion and retention. We do not play with dumb ****s and loaded weapons...:D
Gotcha, you're talking about the standard rifle range. When I was a coach it was the same thing, especially with recruits.
I was worried they had carried that rule over to other ranges, which would be counterproductive in some ways, but wouldn't surprise me these days.
FlyingAttackPorcupine
10-20-12, 23:55
People also need to remember to watch their backstop when sweeping their rifle. You may be sweeping your muzzle across a wall but is it a simple wall made of drywall? Is it concrete? What will the round in your weapon do if it impacts this surface? I see a lot of new shooters in gun stores sweeping walls thinking it's safe but on the other side is a room with 4-5 people inside it. Granted, it can be difficult to know what's behind your backstop but keeping the gun at high/low ready when applicable helps eliminate sweeping people.
Gotcha, you're talking about the standard rifle range. When I was a coach it was the same thing, especially with recruits.
I was worried they had carried that rule over to other ranges, which would be counterproductive in some ways, but wouldn't surprise me these days.
Interesting,
We just had our students ground their weapons at the firing points when doing clean up.
uncle money bags
10-22-12, 16:23
NO BRASS NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT!
Man, some threads just take you back to the good ole days.
Really? Damn.
I've seen enough negligent discharges (insert sexist, and accurate comment here) at every available MC range, it's the right policy, not just for recruits.
So I take a lot of new people shooting and make sure and go over the 4 rules. I also make it point to go over muzzle control and common mistakes that lead to pointing guns at people, reloads, malfunctions, etc. For a while it seemed like some people just didn't get it and no amount of correction would fix the muzzle sweeps. So I adopted a new rule from IDPA sweep yourself or some one else and your done for the day. This has made a huge difference.
Now here is the question. If you have your rifle slung and bend over to pick something up and the muzzle sweeps someone is it still a muzzle sweep? I have been treating it as one and even got called on doing it myself.
So as of today I have heard from two different reputable trainers about AR-15's discharging because a primer fell loose and into the trigger assembly causing an AD. So I think the rifle in particular must not ever sweep anything you don't want to put a hole in.
So as of today I have heard from two different reputable trainers about AR-15's discharging because a primer fell loose and into the trigger assembly causing an AD. So I think the rifle in particular must not ever sweep anything you don't want to put a hole in.
I'd like to hear more on how a popped primer caused a weapon to discharge?
Thanks
So as of today I have heard from two different reputable trainers about AR-15's discharging because a primer fell loose and into the trigger assembly causing an AD. So I think the rifle in particular must not ever sweep anything you don't want to put a hole in.
I was standing next to a gentleman when this same thing occurred in September of 2010.
On a move and fire excersice, after about 8 rounds shot, the rifle would not fire, the individual ran the proper clearance/ malfunction procedure and still no go. With his trigger finger in 'register', he then brought the muzzle down to vertical and engaged the safety, at which time the rifle discharged.
A spent primer was found in the fire control well upon disassembly.
This was an unmodified Colt carbine, BTW.
Kind of a surprise occurrence,, but the shooter did maintain excellent muzzle control !
I've seen enough negligent discharges (insert sexist, and accurate comment here) at every available MC range, it's the right policy, not just for recruits.
I suppose. I just don't think thats the solution. You mean to tell me a fighting force can't be trusted to safely handle a rifle? That's breaking training down to a level of the lowest common denominator, and that lowers the standards.
Is it more safe? I guess. I can't recall a time downrange where I was worried one of my own guys was flagging me on the stack, because I knew he was competent. If someone cant handle holding a rifle without it accidentally firing, they don't need to be there.
I saw more ND's in one week at the range than in any given year in the fleet, doing much more kinetic ranges. My opinion is that the level of fear and mystery that rifles are given by recruits at the range is what makes stupid shit happen.
If you sweep someone at a USPSA match or IPSC match in my area, they tell you to pack your gear and leave. That includes sweeping someone with a slung rifle when you bend over to pick something up.
I don't teach high speed operators, I teach LEO. When I help run in service classes, I teach people to grab the buttstock of the rifle to keep the muzzle out of the dirt and hold the rifle pointed muzzle down when picking up something off the deck. If we have a lot to pick up off the ground, we clear the rifles and secure them somewhere while we police the area.
I would hate to see someone get shot during training. The brass do not like it and it causes me extra paperwork.
NO BRASS NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT!
Man, some threads just take you back to the good ole days.
thanks i just Flashed Back BRM good times indeed :laugh:
alvincullumyork
12-03-12, 12:56
The primer in the FCG is a very interesting piece of info. Thanks to all who responded.
ApexAchilles
12-05-12, 17:22
So I take a lot of new people shooting and make sure and go over the 4 rules. I also make it point to go over muzzle control and common mistakes that lead to pointing guns at people, reloads, malfunctions, etc. For a while it seemed like some people just didn't get it and no amount of correction would fix the muzzle sweeps. So I adopted a new rule from IDPA sweep yourself or some one else and your done for the day. This has made a huge difference.
Now here is the question. If you have your rifle slung and bend over to pick something up and the muzzle sweeps someone is it still a muzzle sweep? I have been treating it as one and even got called on doing it myself.
It still counts, but in non range setting sometimes muzzle sweeps are inevitable, so I guess it depends on the environment, and how well you know the person, new shooters on square bay, there's no reason for it.
I totally agree. A slung rifle muzzle sweep is still a muzzle sweep. In my last carbine class it was spelled out clearly as such. You are responsible of the direction of the muzzle, slung or not. You quickly learn to kneel properly to pick something up without sweeping someone. This is a good tactical lesson too. You need to learn the proper way to pick something off the ground and keep your head up looking around as well as keeping your weapon from sweeping your partners.
theblackknight
12-16-12, 21:11
I suppose. I just don't think thats the solution. You mean to tell me a fighting force can't be trusted to safely handle a rifle? That's breaking training down to a level of the lowest common denominator, and that lowers the standards.
Treating people with kid gloves,until they D.F.L. and are expected to be proactive,switched on thinkers and leaders was pretty much SOP for a lot of the people I witnessed.
alvincullumyork
12-16-12, 23:24
Treating people with kid gloves,until they D.F.L. and are expected to be proactive,switched on thinkers and leaders was pretty much SOP for a lot of the people I witnessed.
D.F.L?
theblackknight
12-16-12, 23:31
Sorry I was being a motard. depart friendly lines
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