View Full Version : Can Decision mini 4 vs m4-2000
Guys,
Looking for some advice here.
Let's just say I have 2 primarly rifles.
An 11.5 inch SBR with a red dot optic and then
an 18inch rifle with a 1-6 variable optic
Both guns are handy and serve different purpose but fit my needs.
i am looking to purchase a fast detach suppressor for them
i like the small size of the Mini but is it worth giving up the suppression of the larger m4-2000
long term i see myself owning both
i am leaning towards getting the mini first
any thought or recomendaitons?
My 11.5inch gun has the KAC URX rail so there isnt alot of wiggle room when mounting the can
thanks as always
I split the difference and got the Surefire 556-212. It is smack dab in the middle of those two cans regarding length added and weight added, but comes pretty close to the M4-2000 side of things when it comes to suppression.
I would buy the full size first, but that's just me. I have the m4-2k and really have no desire to acquire the mini. Buying the mini first may leave you wanting more from the suppresion side of it. However, this is strictly my opinion. If you're going to end up with both, then it really comes down to what you want more right now-full suppression or lighter, smaller package.
Edit: I agree with the above post. I like my AAC but I would go with the surefire. If you're wanting a mini for the handling and not full suppression, go with a 7.62 and be able to use multi cal. It will still take the bark off all guns and handle really well.
I think WS6 had a good suggestion as a compromise between the two.
If you're set on AAC, then I would suggest defining exactly what your goal is for your 11.5" build. Is it shortest OAL possible (for "CQB/HD" type setup) with a compromise on suppression level? Or do you want the most suppression and don't mind the fact that a full size suppressor will bring the length out to about what an unsuppressed 16" would be?
If it's shortest OAL, then the answer is obviously Mini4. I also think that the Mini4 on your 18" will not only handle better, but will still sound pretty damn good.
mini. handling will be better.
Assuming you are using the 11.5 for CQB, I cannot see the appeal of running a full-size suppressor on an SBR (over a mini)
If the cost of the can doesn't matter, go with a Surefire mini can.
They are out of my price range ,especially given the cost of the flash hider.
I ordered 2 AAC mini's for $799 each, and just don't see the justification in the cost difference for my needs.
One upper already has the AAC Blackout installed from Noveske. So for me, the cost of 3 mounts, and having them installed, versus 2 and that adds up a little more.
The dB rating isn't so far off, and I'm not looking for 'Hollywood' performance. Just tame the noise if I ever need the can for self defense. On the range the noise of my SBR doesn't me in the least. Other shooters, well I can see the annoyance. But it's a gun for Christ's sake!!
Assuming you are using the 11.5 for CQB, I cannot see the appeal of running a full-size suppressor on an SBR (over a mini)
My whole thing, personally---and I admit it's a personal quibble and not "operationally important" to many of the professionals on this website---is that I be able to fire a magazine empty and not have ringing ears afterward. The Surefire 556-212 does this on my 14.5" middy w/Switchblock, and I am hoping for the same from my 10.5". Maybe, maybe not. We will see.
No, I know this does not mean "it's hearing safe". What it does mean is that my ears don't hurt, and I like that, even if it's medically insignificant. I might have to shoot something in a low-stress situation sometime and would rather not worry about the gunshots and flinch, etc. because hearing protection isn't available and it's not life/death but I really REALLY don't want to miss the shot (dog has a large copperhead cornered, etc. and the AR is the closest viable tool of disposal. Things like that.)
I might have to shoot something in a low-stress situation sometime and would rather not worry about the gunshots and flinch, etc. because hearing protection isn't available and it's not life/death but I really REALLY don't want to miss the shot (dog has a large copperhead cornered, etc. and the AR is the closest viable tool of disposal. Things like that.)
You make a good point, I had not really considered the use of a suppressed weapon outside of an "official" role since I live in the suburbs :)
I split the difference and got the Surefire 556-212. It is smack dab in the middle of those two cans regarding length added and weight added, but comes pretty close to the M4-2000 side of things when it comes to suppression.
Just ordered a dark earth one for my 12" SBR for that reason, better suppression on an SBR than a mini but only adding about 4". Since the SOCOM is coming out, you can get damn good pricing on the 212 right now, around $1k.
Thanks for the imput
i am looking for a local 212 and if i can find one for a decent price i will jump on it
if not i am going to fall back and get the mini
after looking and thinking i want small size
Thanks for the imput
i am looking for a local 212 and if i can find one for a decent price i will jump on it
if not i am going to fall back and get the mini
after looking and thinking i want small size
Good luck finding one local. I went through Silencer Shop. I've been hearing anywhere up to 2 mos for form 3s from other dealers, but with SS I've heard 5-15 days on F3s. No idea who they have on the inside...but they're doing something right.
I like mini cans. The Mini-4 is something like 2.5" shorter and four ounces lighter than the M4-2000. That's a big deal.
We shot Pappabears Mini 4, and that thing is pretty nice. I couldn't tell the difference from a full sized silencer when shooting it with no ear pro on. I think he had it mounted to a 14.5"
Db ratings are meaningless to me. Stand slightly down range of a .223 with a silencer being fired, and you'll find that they are ALL painfully loud.
We shot Pappabears Mini 4, and that thing is pretty nice. I couldn't tell the difference from a full sized silencer when shooting it with no ear pro on. I think he had it mounted to a 14.5"
Db ratings are meaningless to me. Stand slightly down range of a .223 with a silencer being fired, and you'll find that they are ALL painfully loud.
That's because it has less back-pressure which makes noise at your ear equivalent or even less than with the full-size.
Properly regulate the gas-flow and a full-size can begins to show its value.
That's because it has less back-pressure which makes noise at your ear equivalent or even less than with the full-size.
Properly regulate the gas-flow and a full-size can begins to show its value.
Possibly. A real good test we could do is to run the mini on his Bolt gun. It's got a 2000 on it. Eliminate all of the port noise and get a better Idea if we can hear a sound difference.
Possibly. A real good test we could do is to run the mini on his Bolt gun. It's got a 2000 on it. Eliminate all of the port noise and get a better Idea if we can hear a sound difference.
You will.
Why do I say so? I can hear the FRP on my 556-212. That is what, 3-4dB at the most? Easily less difference than between the mini and full-size.
That will be interesting.
Littlelebowski
10-22-12, 10:41
Db ratings are meaningless to me. Stand slightly down range of a .223 with a silencer being fired, and you'll find that they are ALL painfully loud.
They do say that AZ is a war zone :D
They do say that AZ is a war zone :D
This was Iraqgunz's M4-2000. It was literally painful to the ears 30 feet out front and to the side of the muzzle.
It's the sonic crack and all... which the silencer can't do anything about.
FlyingHunter
10-22-12, 20:19
My M4-2000 on my SBR has been a solid performer so i can feel good on giving it a thumbs up. Downside, it's a brick and does significantly alter the balance of the SBR. Sorry...no actually use on the mini. Good luck with your decision.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 07:56
This was Iraqgunz's M4-2000. It was literally painful to the ears 30 feet out front and to the side of the muzzle.
It's the sonic crack and all... which the silencer can't do anything about.
He told you to stay off his lawn.....
That's where my golf ball landed though... I play it where I lay it!
(took a big divot out of his yard though)
There's grass in Arizona??
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 08:24
There's grass in Arizona??
Yup. They import it from the south.
There's grass in Arizona??
For medicinal purposes.... yes.:blink:
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 08:28
That's where my golf ball landed though... I play it where I lay it!
(took a big divot out of his yard though)
http://www.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/15051463-15051466-large.jpg
I thought by now they'd just give up and move to astro-turf...for their non-medicinal purposes, that is.
I have a Mini-4 and its about my perfect can.
Quieter at the ear than an M42k, shorter, lighter, less back pressure.
I don't see the benefit of getting the M42k over it. It also has an all inconel stack, but I view a suppressor as a wear item.
I have a Mini-4 and its about my perfect can.
Quieter at the ear than an M42k.
Genuinely curious, how is that possible?
Genuinely curious, how is that possible?
if I had to guess, it's less effective overall, thus less gas is sent back into the receiver, thus less noise at the ear from the ejection port.
if I had to guess, it's less effective overall, thus less gas is sent back into the receiver, thus less noise at the ear from the ejection port.
Now I'm tracking
if I had to guess, it's less effective overall, thus less gas is sent back into the receiver, thus less noise at the ear from the ejection port.
And that's all that matters because it's LOUDER than hell out front of the can when the bullet cracks.
I've only shot the mini a little bit so far, but I'm starting to think it's the BETTER option for a gas gun.
But it takes enough bite out of the muzzle blast when shooting indoors, under cover, or next to a wall, it makes a big difference to the shooter and most everyone around him.
But it takes enough bite out of the muzzle blast when shooting indoors, under cover, or next to a wall, it makes a big difference to the shooter and most everyone around him.
A full sized can will still rattle your brains inside a structure. I shot mine in a structure with two blown out window and no door... and it was like firing a 9mm pistol with no ears on.
So seeing that it's going to be painfull loud either way... the Mini isn't a bad trade off.
No doubt about it, its still loud, but with / without is a huge difference.
Does subsonic ammo make the mini4 and SBR a better combo?
There is no reason to use subsonic 5.56mm.
We will have to try the SDN-6, with 300 Blackout, and see how painful it is with supers.
5.56 subsonic is extremely expensive and also not very effective from what I know. The 5.56 round relies on speed and fragmentation neither of which are accomplished with subsonic ammo.
Does subsonic ammo make the mini4 and SBR a better combo?
59_Gretsch
10-25-12, 05:14
Good luck finding one local. I went through Silencer Shop. I've been hearing anywhere up to 2 mos for form 3s from other dealers, but with SS I've heard 5-15 days on F3s. No idea who they have on the inside...but they're doing something right.
Great customer service from SS too.
foxjordan22
10-25-12, 06:31
I have a Mini-4 and its about my perfect can.
Quieter at the ear than an M42k, shorter, lighter, less back pressure.
I don't see the benefit of getting the M42k over it. It also has an all inconel stack, but I view a suppressor as a wear item.
I agree 100%. I have 4 AAC rifle cans sprm4, mini4, m42000, sdn6 and the mini is my favorite and most used.
Does subsonic ammo make the mini4 and SBR a better combo?
It's amusing, but not effective. I loaded some and shot it into a water jug. 69 gr SMK. Bullet turned sideways and flattened at the base.
For shooting out of a bolt gun off the porch, it'd be ok.
Great customer service from SS too.
Definitely!
5.56 subsonic is extremely expensive and also not very effective from what I know. The 5.56 round relies on speed and fragmentation neither of which are accomplished with subsonic ammo.
From what I understand the slow subsonic loads also have a high propensity for baffle strikes, as they can 'wobble' more on their x-axis.
From what I understand the slow subsonic loads also have a high propensity for baffle strikes, as they can 'wobble' more on their x-axis.
You have to load your own. I'd never trust a factory sub.
You have to load your own. I'd never trust a factory sub.
Right and that's a no-go for me, as I don't know shit about reloading.
I smell a business opportunity for you, Mark. www.markshandloads-ihatelwrci.com :haha:
I smell a business opportunity for you, Mark. www.markshandloads-ihatelwrci.com :haha:
Pappabear kills anyone who distracts me from filling his ammo needs. :p
Pappabear kills anyone who distracts me from filling his ammo needs. :p
Shit. :fie:
Right and that's a no-go for me, as I don't know shit about reloading.
I smell a business opportunity for you, Mark. www.markshandloads-ihatelwrciandmarklarueandrailsandoptics.com :haha:
fixed that for you
fixed that for you
:sarcastic: I think that domain is available
:sarcastic: I think that domain is available
It's catchy! :) Although I have an Aimpoint on one of my SBRs... but I'm not happy about it. :p
Mark and I tested the mini4 and M4-2000 on a 20 inch bolt gun and 14.5 SBR and 11.5 SBR tonight.
The M4-2000 shined as the barrel length reduced, which is why so many people like mini's for 14.5 guns. No doubt the M4 is quieter, but I would still opt for mini on 14.5 and greater guns.
The sound more is different than it was different in loudness. And of course it depended on where you were standing.
We just need a couple more mini's and 7.62SD-n's and we shall be GTG :D
oberstgreup
10-28-12, 03:13
I have a Mini-4 and its about my perfect can.
Quieter at the ear than an M42k, shorter, lighter, less back pressure.
I don't see the benefit of getting the M42k over it. It also has an all inconel stack, but I view a suppressor as a wear item.
What length barrel do you have it on?
I'm thinking about one of these two for my 10.5" LMT for which I'm still waiting for the stamp.
Mostly on a 10.5", sometimes on a 14.5.
On a 10.5, it makes the gun the same length as 14.5 without a can.
You will.
Why do I say so? I can hear the FRP on my 556-212. That is what, 3-4dB at the most? Easily less difference than between the mini and full-size.
It was very interesting to shoot these two side by side on ARs and swap them out on the Rem 700.
They each have a different sound and the mini is a littlle louder. The 2000 sounds a little deeper.
I was thinkin you were full of crap, and I wouldn't be able to hear the diff... but you were right.
Interesting. I shot a singe round out of my 14.5" with an M4-1000 inside this abandoned double wide trailer in the desert. My ears hurt like firing a 9mm outside with no muffs on.
I should have shot at a target outside of the structure to see if it mellowed out the sound.
I've shot a 10.4" 416 with a a Surefire 556K indoors several times with no ear pro and never felt that it was in any way uncomfortable. A friend also confirmed the same thing re: his 10.4" 416 but with a M4-2000 on it. Both were with full power mil-spec ammo but I couldn't tell you if it was Greentip, 262, or other. Also note that the sonic crack normally associated with firing a suppressed centerfire rifle doesn't seem to develop within normal room distances. It is noticeable in long halls or really big rooms.
I think the whole hearing comfort/pain thing is very personal and probably a reflection of your cumulative life long level of hearing damage. YMMV
For sake of comparison, with no ear pro, 9mm NATO ball out of a pistol in painful (but bearable in the short term) to me but the same ammo out of an MP5 is pretty tolerable (in the short term).
That said, always use some form of good electronic ear pro (Peltors or Sordins) if at all possible.
Sonic crack develops instantly. HOWEVER, how the human brain interprets what the human ear hears is something entirely different.
Like you said, hearing is personal. However, physics and physiology are what they are.
The shorter in duration a loud sound is, the quieter the human brain interprets it. Obviously in a smaller area, the sonic crack will not be as long a duration as the bullet will have impacted/left the structure much sooner in a short room than a hall-way. However, the dB of sound is still equal, your brain just interpreted it different. This does not change the fact that it is above the threshold of your ear's physiology and is damaging you, you just aren't aware.
It was very interesting to shoot these two side by side on ARs and swap them out on the Rem 700.
They each have a different sound and the mini is a littlle louder. The 2000 sounds a little deeper.
I was thinkin you were full of crap, and I wouldn't be able to hear the diff... but you were right.
Yep, a few dB is "hearable" to someone with even remotely working ears. This is why the switchblock is so "cool" (same for the WAR, I just don't own one). It makes whatever suppressor you run 2-3dB quieter to your ear. So hey, $200 to knock 2.5dB off the real-world sound? Helluva sales point, regardless of all the other benefits that others would debate.
Although there was a snound difference and tambre difference, I'd take the smaller can all day long for a gas gun. The trade of was negligible in my opinion.
For the bolt gun, the full size can was optimal.
There was also two different POIs on the same gun... about an inch higher with the mini if I remember right.
No Bananas
10-30-12, 11:41
How would the mini do for cutting flash on a 12.5"?
How would the mini do for cutting flash on a 12.5"?
All our cans were flashing a little bit on Friday night. The mini would make it manageable, but It'd be worse than a real flash hider.
It seems the flash is worse on the first round pop and dwindles out from there.
Ammo selection is also a big factor in what you get for flash... but the worse flash I saw out of a can was about 6-8 long and not very wide. Wouldn't have hurt your night vision and the can shoots the flash straight forward... not out to the sides.
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-12, 13:20
All our cans were flashing a little bit on Friday night. The mini would make it manageable, but It'd be worse than a real flash hider.
It seems the flash is worse on the first round pop and dwindles out from there.
Ammo selection is also a big factor in what you get for flash... but the worse flash I saw out of a can was about 6-8 long and not very wide. Wouldn't have hurt your night vision and the can shoots the flash straight forward... not out to the sides.
It'd probably be better if the gun was running a real flash hider instead of a brake underneath the suppressor in terms of flash.
Regardless of the DI gun, I'd rather a fullsize suppressor because no matter what... for any reason I want a can. A longer one will do what I want a suppressor to do better.
Unless it's on a 14.5'' barrel or longer, in which case it might make no difference. As 14.5'' guns have less flash, and are quieter in general.
It'd probably be better if the gun was running a real flash hider instead of a brake underneath the suppressor in terms of flash.
Doesn't matter. None of my mounts are brakes. A silencer negates the ability of the flash hider to work.
For example, you'll get more flash out of a gun with a blackout and silencer mounted than you would if just the blackout were on the barrel.
How much flash do you see with a 12.5" barrel and m42k? If you are outdoors at night, would it be enough to give your position away? If it is, would a flash hider that reduces flash to near zero be a better choice due to the fact that gunshot noise at night is hard to localize anyway?
I'd think you'd want to go full size than the mini, especially if you plan to use it on the SBR which will already be louder. Per what I've read, the mini does 22dba and the M4 is 32-34dba, I don't see much point to the mini, I want it to supress as much as possible, unless you absolutely need a short can for room clearing or something.
Saving my pennies up for the M4, unless I cave and get the Specwar first :D
How much flash do you see with a 12.5" barrel and m42k? If you are outdoors at night, would it be enough to give your position away? If it is, would a flash hider that reduces flash to near zero be a better choice due to the fact that gunshot noise at night is hard to localize anyway?
Unless you're running Nods and a designator like Seal Teams, then flash is irrelevant.
You're tac light is going to give your position away since as civilians, we must I.D. our threat before shooting.
I can NOT see a realistic civilian scenario where zero flash is a MUST.
I'd think you'd want to go full size than the mini, especially if you plan to use it on the SBR which will already be louder. Per what I've read, the mini does 22dba and the M4 is 32-34dba, I don't see much point to the mini, I want it to supress as much as possible, unless you absolutely need a short can for room clearing or something.
Saving my pennies up for the M4, unless I cave and get the Specwar first :D
For a gas gun, there's NO WAY I'd pick a full size can over the Mini. The mini is just as quiet as the 2000 from the shooter's position due to the decrease in blow back... and that's ALL that matters since out front of the muzzle they're ALL LOUD...
Stand 30 feet to the side and in front of someone with an M4-2000. and experience ear pain. :(
Doesn't matter. None of my mounts are brakes. A silencer negates the ability of the flash hider to work.
For example, you'll get more flash out of a gun with a blackout and silencer mounted than you would if just the blackout were on the barrel.
How? Most flash is on the first shot, can't the fh still work fine in the oxygen rich blast chamber for the first shot?
I wonder if rsilvers will weigh in, here...this is right up his alley.
For a gas gun, there's NO WAY I'd pick a full size can over the Mini. The mini is just as quiet as the 2000 from the shooter's position due to the decrease in blow back... and that's ALL that matters since out front of the muzzle they're ALL LOUD...
Stand 30 feet to the side and in front of someone with an M4-2000. and experience ear pain. :(
That depends on whether or not you are running a switchblock or WAR. I like my sb, and it cuts fouling easily by 2/3, as well as minimizing back pressure effects on port noise due to correcting the timing of the weapon.
I'm basing this off of personal experience AND rsilvers old pics from when the Blackout first came out.
I'm basing this off of personal experience AND rsilvers old pics from when the Blackout first came out.
Ah, okay. I digress.
Magic_Salad0892
10-31-12, 09:02
That depends on whether or not you are running a switchblock or WAR. I like my sb, and it cuts fouling easily by 2/3, as well as minimizing back pressure effects on port noise due to correcting the timing of the weapon.
Add moded gas port, or SYRAC to that list.
Magic_Salad0892
10-31-12, 09:02
Doesn't matter. None of my mounts are brakes. A silencer negates the ability of the flash hider to work.
For example, you'll get more flash out of a gun with a blackout and silencer mounted than you would if just the blackout were on the barrel.
Huh. I didn't know that.
Shoulderthinggoesup
11-01-12, 13:45
Mark, What do you think about the FH that silencerco is having as an add on to the endcap of the saker? All the post I have ever seen about them is people complaining that it looks like "mall ninja" gear, but in my mind it cures (if it works) one of the biggest drawback of suppressors, flash at night. I know these are still just vaporware.... but I was curious what you, or anyone thought of them.
It looks nuts, but it makes perfect sense to anyone who's run a can in low light.
Flash is more powder dependent than muzzle device. If it matters get a suitable load. M193 will put a footlong flash out of a shorty, a newer load near nil.
I have not found a suppressor to amplify muzzle flash, quite the opposite. This may be peculiar to the loads used.
This is true too. But most ammo available has nasty powder in it.
This is true too. But most ammo available has nasty powder in it.
I have found that Speer's 64gr Gold Dot offering is pretty low-flash. You only lose about 200-220fps in a 10.5" barrel compared to a 16" carbine with it, too. Win/win. It's my SBR load of choice.
That's good to know. Yeah... that's a premium round. Gold Dot is my house load, and it's too expensive to be doing too much testing with.
That's good to know. Yeah... that's a premium round. Gold Dot is my house load, and it's too expensive to be doing too much testing with.
You're telling me. I bought a few cases of it a while back and that is my "lifetime supply". About 1300 rounds, 2012 production. After I zero the weapons with it, other than a random 3-5 shot group to verify POI after a trip or something, I don't plan on expending it unless it's on something that bleeds or is otherwise meaningful.
Sorry, again with the computer/server issues.
I bought like 3 boxes. :D
A mag full... and a little for testing. After that, I'm switching to regular ammo for the rest of the firefight! :p
Yay for double-posts, somehow?
I find something I like and I stock up on it. My Dad is still trying to figure out how to replace/match the shower tile in his parent's home that he inherited, and that's kindof how I view some things.
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