View Full Version : What does your muzzle device do for you?
This is something I've thought about over time and the recent discussion about the new BCM comp has brought it all to a head in my mind.
So, at the most basic levels, we screw something on the end of the barrel to accomplish one or more of the following things:
1) Flash Signature Reduction
2) Muzzle Flip Reduction
3) Sound signature modification and/or reduction
It's been said that a Silencer is the best flashhider you can get. It also does a pretty good job on 2 and 3 as well. Unfortunately, silencers are somewhat cost prohibitive and carry obnoxious Federal and State regulations in the US.
So, it seems what we're looking for is a "second best" compromise.
Devices like the Vortex and AAC Blackout hide flash the best, but do nothing for muzzle flip.
Devices like the JP and SJC Titan mitigate muzzle flip the best, but at the cost of huge fireballs.
Due to BATFE definitions, there are no sound modification devices outside of the silencer arena.
So, we're left trying to balance flash and muzzle flip, right?
It's been said that the A2 birdcage is that best balance and they're very inexpensive.
Newer products like the Battlecomp and new BCM comp (yet to be released) are said to have the flash reduction of the A2, but with better muzzle flip mitigation.
I have the following questions:
1) How real of an issue is muzzle flip on an AR15? Do things like mid gas, heavy buffers, and proper grip/stance not already make it a non-issue?
2) Assuming an AR15 is in a fighting gun role, isn't flash reduction much more important than flattening out recoil on an already mildy-recoiling system?
Mission influences gear selection. Rifles I game with need to shoot with no muzzle rise for very fast follow ups. Serious use rifles are used in a different role so flash hiding abilities would be more important since real life doesn't mimic blazing through a shoot stage at a local match.
It holds my suppressor on.
It's been said that a Silencer is the best flashhider you can get.
That is said by people who don't know shit. A silencer puts out a flash.
That is said by people who don't know shit. A silencer puts out a flash.
I've got some great pictures of flash coming out of cans.
Yeah. The flash often looks photoshopped it's so nice.
A few of the can makers have even put flash hiders on the end cap of their silencers... like little blackouts.
I have a couple of different muzzle devices.
Extended A2, pinned and welded. = Reduces flash, makes the gun legal.
Battle Comp 2", pinned and welded. = Reduces flash, makes the gun legal, may reduce muzzle rise a little, not sure.
militarymoron
10-10-12, 11:35
markm - he said 'best flash hider', not implying that a can eliminates flash completely :)
anyways - i think that the answer to the OP's first question is found by asking a simple question: what is your standard of how well you're shooting when you're shooting? (i'm referring to shooting only, not tactics etc)
i don't think anyone will disagree that the only two measures are accuracy and speed. it's either accuracy (as in bench rest), or a combination of the two. speed with misses is useless, obviously. so, given that we're talking about a combination of speed and accuracy, and assuming that given no time limit you can hit the target accurately in slow fire, then the only thing left is speed.
first shot on target is related to reaction time and target acquisition, so in this context, we're only talking about follow up shots and transition to other targets in the same string of shots.
assuming that you're doing what you can already with proper stance and technique, the only other factor is recoil and muzzle movement (up, down, side etc). recoil and muzzle movement on an AR15 is not an 'issue' when taken in the wider context - i see people poo-poo the 'recoil issue' all the time, claiming that it's non-existent on an AR-15. while that is true, if you're talking about whether it's 'scary' or that it's going to push you back or cause you to lose control like portrayed in some movies, in this context the better way to phrase it is 'is recoil or muzzle flip a factor when trying to shoot faster while maintaining the same accuracy?'.
it's unquestionably so. it's simple physics. the less movement that the rifle has after a shot is fired, the quicker you can follow up with subsequent shots. i challenge any proficient shooter that claims that recoil and muzzle flip are non-factors on an AR, to measure split times shooting an AR, then doing it with a .22LR AR upper. i have not yet seen a shooter who cannot shoot a .22LR upper faster than he can with an 5.56mm upper. what's the only difference? recoil and muzzle movement.
so, if your goal is to shoot faster and more accurately, and you're pushing the limit of your current technique, a muzzle device that stabilizes the muzzle is going to make a difference.
does it have 'real world' applications outside the gaming community? i don't know. but as long as instructors and trainers are scoring targets in timed drills (speed + accuracy) like 1-5 or bill drills, some people will look for mechanical ways to improve those, however incrementally, in addition to proper technique.
what the compromises are (increased flash or blast) have to be weighed against those advantages.
anyway, that's what i look for in a muzzle device on rifles i use in classes or shooting sessions with those drills - a slight edge in control without compromising blast too much. i'm not as concerned about flash as most of the shooting i do is during the daytime, and i'm a civvie. on the uppers i shoot at night, and use in conjunction with NVGs and an IR laser, i have flash suppressors only, no comps. I'm looking for maximum flash suppression in those cases.
1) How real of an issue is muzzle flip on an AR15? Do things like mid gas, heavy buffers, and proper grip/stance not already make it a non-issue?
2) Assuming an AR15 is in a fighting gun role, isn't flash reduction much more important than flattening out recoil on an already mildy-recoiling system?
I recently shot two 14.5" BCM lightweight midlength guns side by side. The only difference between the two was that one had a battlecomp and the other had an a2x flash hider. The red dot did move slightly less with the battlecomp, and I expected to find a small benefit in my times with the battlecomp. When I shot drills emphasizing rapid splits and transitions at 5, 10, and 20 yards on a timer, however, I found absolutely no difference. I used both H1 and H2 buffers on both guns, and all configurations locked back consistently. I noticed that the H2 had a slightly smoother feel to it, but no difference in times between the two buffers.
I also fired controlled splits into targets in order to assess the mix of speed and accuracy. In both setups, my splits were in the 0.14-0.15 range with no difference in accuracy or distance between the hits.
Although the battlecomp has much less blast, flash, and noise than a classic compensator, all three are noticeably worse than an a2. You might not notice the flash at night from a shooter's perspective, but there is a significant amount to an observer.
I have shot other guns in the past that had different lengths, gas ports, buffers, etc. that bounced around a lot more than the 14.5" BCM middy, and individuals using those guns might derive more benefit from a battlecomp. The answer that I have come to with what I use is that it is best to stick with a flash hider on a 5.56 gun except on a dedicated suppressor host because the benefits (which in my hands are undetectable in courses of fire emphasizing splits and transitions) do not outweigh the costs.
Perhaps the new BCM muzzle device will truly have no more flash signature and noise than an a2, but I am not holding my breath.
Aha! Thanks for those last two posts guys. Now we're starting to get somewhere.
Has anyone evaluated this offering from PWS? I have the Triad on my LMT and haven't hyper-focused on it enough to make an informed evaluation. I replaced the A2 with it and like it - my follow-ups seem to be good enough, but I'm not running like the wind with it yet, so some first hand thoughts would be appreciated:
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=252&idcategory=6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTUx2JCZeMM&feature=player_embedded
Another 'side' effect of a muzzle device is the blast areas to the sides of the shooter, i.e.: your buddies catching hot winds as you shoot in combat or at the range.
SomeOtherGuy
10-10-12, 13:12
MassMark, the Triad has been discussed in the following thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77230
It works, in my experience.
If you turn your A2 upside down you'll also discover that the lowly A2 is providing some useful reduction of muzzle flip as well. Not as much as the Triad, however.
OP:
1) Every little bit helps. I've been using the Triad in competition for much of the past year and I find it provides a benefit over an A2, for me. When I watch my shooting on video I see absolutely no muzzle rise with the Triad, even in awkward positions.
MassMark, the Triad has been discussed in the following thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77230
It works, in my experience.
If you turn your A2 upside down you'll also discover that the lowly A2 is providing some useful reduction of muzzle flip as well. Not as much as the Triad, however.
OP:
1) Every little bit helps. I've been using the Triad in competition for much of the past year and I find it provides a benefit over an A2, for me. When I watch my shooting on video I see absolutely no muzzle rise with the Triad, even in awkward positions.
Nice read - thanks!
Mine makes me lightheaded after 5 consecutive indoor shots. :D
This is something I've thought about over time and the recent discussion about the new BCM comp has brought it all to a head in my mind.
So, at the most basic levels, we screw something on the end of the barrel to accomplish one or more of the following things:
1) Flash Signature Reduction
2) Muzzle Flip Reduction
3) Sound signature modification and/or reduction
It's been said that a Silencer is the best flashhider you can get. It also does a pretty good job on 2 and 3 as well. Unfortunately, silencers are somewhat cost prohibitive and carry obnoxious Federal and State regulations in the US. The tax is $200, and you are talking about a $4-1200 item on a forum where the median price of the rifles alone are usually around $1000. They are legal in 4/5ths of the US almost, and there are no interstate travel regulations as long as you are in that 4/5.
So, it seems what we're looking for is a "second best" compromise. No.
Devices like the Vortex and AAC Blackout hide flash the best, but do nothing for muzzle flip.
Devices like the JP and SJC Titan mitigate muzzle flip the best, but at the cost of huge fireballs.
Due to BATFE definitions, there are no sound modification devices outside of the silencer arena. Not 100% true. The Noveske PIG is an example. It makes an SBR livable by re-directing that sound. I consider this a modification, and luckily for those in that 1/5 of the US, the BATFE does not.
So, we're left trying to balance flash and muzzle flip, right?
It's been said that the A2 birdcage is that best balance and they're very inexpensive.
Newer products like the Battlecomp and new BCM comp (yet to be released) are said to have the flash reduction of the A2, but with better muzzle flip mitigation.
I have the following questions:
1) How real of an issue is muzzle flip on an AR15? Do things like mid gas, heavy buffers, and proper grip/stance not already make it a non-issue?
Proper stance/grip are the biggest.
2) Assuming an AR15 is in a fighting gun role, isn't flash reduction much more important than flattening out recoil on an already mildy-recoiling system?
It depends. In my home, I think if I'm shooting they will either know nothing after the first shot, or they will know everything. Flash suppression would serve only to preserve my night adapted vision.
As you may have guessed, I really am in the suppressor camp. I used to seriously balk at the NFA paperwork involved in owning things like that, but I dabbled my toe in it and created a world of spending for myself. My advice to you is if you're not a single man like me and your partner has access to your bank account statements, you keep on thinking what you are now. If not, I suggest trying one if you legally can...
It depends. In my home, I think if I'm shooting they will either know nothing after the first shot, or they will know everything. Flash suppression would serve only to preserve my night adapted vision.
As you may have guessed, I really am in the suppressor camp. I used to seriously balk at the NFA paperwork involved in owning things like that, but I dabbled my toe in it and created a world of spending for myself. My advice to you is if you're not a single man like me and your partner has access to your bank account statements, you keep on thinking what you are now. If not, I suggest trying one if you legally can...
I think you're reading me wrong, Chief. I'm not opposed to suppressors, I have one. Do you?
This is about what goes on the muzzle of the gun when you're not running a suppressor. Unless, of course, you have suppressors on all of your guns, in which case, you have way more money than I do.
1) How real of an issue is muzzle flip on an AR15?
2) Assuming an AR15 is in a fighting gun role, isn't flash reduction much more important than flattening out recoil on an already mildy-recoiling system?
1. Do you have any MIL or LE experience? If not, have you ever taken an intensive carbine course?
2. Why would you think that? For what purpose or role? I'm trying to figure out your perspective on this question, because the answer seems obvious to me.
1. Do you have any MIL or LE experience? If not, have you ever taken an intensive carbine course?
2. Why would you think that? For what purpose or role? I'm trying to figure out your perspective on this question, because the answer seems obvious to me.
No MIL or LEO experience. I took a basic carbine class with LAV last year but I don't think that counts as intensive.
My perspective is as a husband, father, and armed citizen of a free country and willing to fight to defend those things. If that fight comes at night in my house, fireballs and deafening concussions from a comp don't seem like a great idea to me.
Am I understanding you to say that a compensating muzzle device is more important than flash suppression?
My muzzle device of choice is the A2 due to cost to function ratio. It also protects the crown on the muzzle. I've had a FSC556 and the obnoxious bark from it negated any of its other benefits to me. Where can I get an actual military/Colt A2 hider in case I want to use one for a suppressor mount?
I guess it depends on what it your primary purpose.
If you're a 3-gun gamer, muzzle rise and recoil are your first concern while flash and noise are a non issue because you'll be wearing ear protection.
In a pure tactical setting my thoughts are flash is your number one concern as to not give away your position. I'd rate noise as second and rise/recoil third. However i am not MIL/LE so i do not have any experience in the setting, just hypothesizing, so please correct me if i'm incorrect.
Now for many including myself where my rifle is more general use, i would rate rise/recoil and noise higher than flash suppression. I rarely shoot at night, i usually wear ear protection, and its nice to have a device that helps me control my rifle better but not too loud so i dont upset my shooting buddies; example Battlecomp and hopefully the BCM comp.
Just IMO, YMMV, and all that stuff.
threeheadeddog
10-10-12, 21:12
I think it is worth pointing out that in many cases a direct comparison between FH and comp is not going to be seen in split times on very close drills. It will be more obvious at medium ranges where the slight recoil actually brings your sights outside of the intended target.
Regarding noise, lets just say if you have never had anyone touch off a round in a confined space from an AR when others were not properly protected ie hearing protection, you will not forget it. So regarding the statement of fireballs and concussions imagine getting slammed in the ears and not being able to hear a damn thing. Especially if you touch a round off in a hallway setting.
I live in Cali so suppressors are out, I wanted something that allowed me to keep my red dot on target for follow up shots. I live in a condo, with lots of units surrounding me. If I need to pop off a shot in the confines of my home I want as much control of those shots as possible so comp for me was the best choice. I have a couple comps (KX-3, PWS, Troy Claymore, BC 1.0, 1.5, and BABC.) I like the Battlecomp because it offered me about the same flash and noise as a A2 but with much better control of muzzle flip. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for with most of this stuff. People shooting next to me seem to appreciate the BC's vs the PWS which I had a few complaints about. Just one person's 2 cents :)
A muzzle device does two things for me
1. protects the crown from damage
2. If I slip and stick the muzzle in the mud it helps keep the mud from getting into the barrel.
Dust-printing is the most overlooked consideration when it comes to muzzle devices -- and a lot of the time it's an even more important consideration in a tactical environment than flash.
Here's an extremely exaggerated example. Talk about easy target detection for the bad guys. This is training obviously, but there's not always an opportunity to piss on the dirt or lay down a mat / poncho in real life either.
Even with an AR, pronged flash hiders as well as comps and brakes kick up more dust than a closed bottom A2, for example.
So for me, I use standard A2's or suppressors exclusively on AR's. IMO, comps and brakes have no place in a tactical environment when it comes to AR's.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/dustprinting.jpg
As I recall, the regulation states a device must not modify the sound level of the muzzle report more than 1db. The Noveske Pig does not change the sound level, it simply directs more of it forward. The A2 does the same. We shot a Keltech carbine with no muzzle device and standing behind it at an indoor range, it was louder, had a larger fireball and had more concussion than an AR equipped with a Battlecomp. Both rifles had 16 inch barrels. We installed an A2 on the Keltech and it did much to direct noise and blast down range.
I have shot the same AR carbine with an A2 and with Battlecomp. Recoil was almost the same and the A2 has more consistent flash suppression.
Compared to a bare muzzle, the A2 gives me better flash suppression and noise & concussion control. Muzzle protection is a good bonus.
Compared to a bare muzzle, the Battlecomp also give me better flash suppression and sends more concussion & noise down range. Compared to the A2, flash suppression is a little erratic, side blast is a bit more and while there doesn't seem to be much difference in recoil, it's softer, smoother and my sights stray less from the target. After installing a BACB on a Para FAL, the rifle shoots smoother, has less muzzle climb and the recoil feels softer than it did with the Belgian combo device
ClearedHot
10-11-12, 00:51
For me, the A2 does everything I need a muzzle device to do. It really has no real negatives. It does a decent job of hiding flash, mitigating dust printing, and has some compensator effects on muzzle rise.
With other devices, there will always be some trade off. Either they'll dust print really badly, or they'll be obnoxiously loud, etc.
I think you're reading me wrong, Chief. I'm not opposed to suppressors, I have one. Do you?
This is about what goes on the muzzle of the gun when you're not running a suppressor. Unless, of course, you have suppressors on all of your guns, in which case, you have way more money than I do.
I doubt that. I think I just have less guns than you do. :D
Yes, all of my AR's are suppressed. If they were not, I would be running a dedicated flash-hider. The most effective one out there that I have seen or heard of is the AAC Black-out, and since we are presuming no suppressor, I would get the mount-only version to save weight and because why have the mount version if I lived somewhere I could not own a suppressor/did not want a suppressor?
I am a civilian in a non-weapon wielding career. I am not worried about things like dust and foliage signature. I would care most about not blowing my friends ears out when we go shooting, and not ruining my night-adapted vision when shooting at night be it at hogs, targets, or a home invader. That is the reason for my choice. Underneath my Surefire 556-212's, you will find 212 flash-hiders. This is because Surefire's brake looks blasty to me, and because the 212 as a mount is great. Indexes on only 1 spot, and does not allow carbon to build up behind the post.
Even with an AR, pronged flash hiders as well as comps and brakes kick up more dust than a closed bottom A2, for example.
The A2 still kicks up a ton of dust. Some devices make it worse, but there's no getting around the amount of energy released at the end of a rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
So for me, I use standard A2's or suppressors exclusively on AR's. IMO, comps and brakes have no place in a tactical environment when it comes to AR's.
Agreed.
The A2 still kicks up a ton of dust. Some devices make it worse, but there's no getting around the amount of energy released at the end of a rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
Agreed.
+1.
IMO, the best muzzle device for a Home defense AR is suppressor. Since I run a sdn6 I just put blackout 51ts on all my guns (5.56, 300AAc, 308). Makes it easy.
They only exception is my PWS diablo. Haven't found a can that I trust on that upper yet. The pws cqb does an ok job on that blaster
I find it interesting that there are so many comments hinting that the Battle Comp doesn't really do anything.
I'll throw it out there: I have a BCM 14.5" mid w/ BABC and a BCM 14.5" carbine w/ A2X. With the same ammo and the same buffer I, nor anyone else who've shot both can tell any difference.
I find it interesting that there are so many comments hinting that the Battle Comp doesn't really do anything.
I'll throw it out there: I have a BCM 14.5" mid w/ BABC and a BCM 14.5" carbine w/ A2X. With the same ammo and the same buffer I, nor anyone else who've shot both can tell any difference.
To add to that. I have a brakeout in addition to a blackouts. I think the brake out is just louder and blasty. Not noticeably flatter. Maybe marginally flatter. But i am not a gamer or mil with tons and tons of trigger time onthe platform. Just training classes and practice. So maybe I am just shitty operator.
If you're not getting this kind of result, then you're NOT scaring the enemy.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/Damn.jpg
If you're not getting this kind of result, then you're NOT scaring the enemy.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/Damn.jpg
If you miss, at least you might light them on Fire.
Boutique muzzle devices require very little capital investment and create a new profit segment for the manufacturer. So they make sense for the companies producing them. It is my opinion that they don't make much sense on a rifle.
The A2 works great for most applications, there are many cost effective options for a brake for a competition rifle. Any more than that, in this stage of the AR15 development, and you may be over thinking it.
Cameron
Maybe I'm just crazy, but shooting two BCM 14.5 middys, one with an A2X and one with a BC 1.5, only thing I really noticed was that the BC 1.5 had more push (rearwards).
For my purposes, I have no use for a comp. The new BCM comp has drawn my interest though because a year or so ago I was wondering what an A2 with a baffle would be like.
I, for one, have seen very little objective (and a ton of subjective) information on the performance of both flash hiders and brakes on the market. A couple years back I did some flash hider testing (more in the works) because I found others to be lacking.
What most [apparently] don't realize is that barrel length and ammunition selection matter just as much in regards to flash (both from the shooters perspective and downrange) than whatever widget one hangs off their muzzle.
Regarding comps, for most people, I would say that the $50-$150+ spent on a particular gee-whizz muzzle device would be better spent on ammunition for training or $$ towards a proper training class.
Far too many people get caught up in the, 'trending hivemind' than shooting performance itself and that's totally backward to me. I understand it from a marketing perspective (hey, I got my degree in that) but not from an end-users advantage.
Most of my rifles rock an A2. There is a Battlecomp 2.0 on a 16" barrel someplace and an Vltor VC-1 on an 11.5" (a Vortex on another and a BE Meyers on yet another) but by and large it's A2's.
The A2 still kicks up a ton of dust. Some devices make it worse, but there's no getting around the amount of energy released at the end of a rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
The fact that an A2 still kicks up dust (which it clearly does) does not mean that it doesn't do so to a lesser extent than a pronged flash hider. The argument isn't that the A2 eliminates the problem, just that it mitigates it in comparison to the alternative. Compared to a side-port brake, the difference is even greater.
I've tested this side by side with a Vortex and the A2 does print dust less. How important this is in comparison to the Vortex's increased flash suppression is up to the user.
But I do agree with you that a suppressor is obviously the preferred muzzle device whenever possible (with the exception of competition).
justin_247
10-11-12, 23:37
IMO, comps and brakes have no place in a tactical environment when it comes to AR's.
+1
I run A2 flash hiders.
...What most [apparently] don't realize is that barrel length and ammunition selection matter just as much in regards to flash (both from the shooters perspective and downrange) than whatever widget one hangs off their muzzle...
Barrel length and ammo type also has much to do with how well a compensater works. I found that the difference the Battlecomp makes is more noticeable on a 16" carbine than it does a 20" rifle
Barrel length and ammo type also has much to do with how well a compensater works. I found that the difference the Battlecomp makes is more noticeable on a 16" carbine than it does a 20" rifle
From what I've gathered, a lot of guys with 14.5"s say the battlecomp doesn't make as much difference as with longer barrels.
onefastz33
10-12-12, 13:50
I have a JP on my 3gun style rifle. Does and extremely good job of keeping the muzzle on target but I have to double up on ear pro if i'm under a awning. I keep an A2 in my batttle back with an armorers tool if I find myself in a situation where I don't want fireballs.
I, for one, have seen very little objective (and a ton of subjective) information on the performance of both flash hiders and brakes on the market. A couple years back I did some flash hider testing (more in the works) because I found others to be lacking.
What most [apparently] don't realize is that barrel length and ammunition selection matter just as much in regards to flash (both from the shooters perspective and downrange) than whatever widget one hangs off their muzzle.
Regarding comps, for most people, I would say that the $50-$150+ spent on a particular gee-whizz muzzle device would be better spent on ammunition for training or $$ towards a proper training class.
Far too many people get caught up in the, 'trending hivemind' than shooting performance itself and that's totally backward to me. I understand it from a marketing perspective (hey, I got my degree in that) but not from an end-users advantage.
Most of my rifles rock an A2. There is a Battlecomp 2.0 on a 16" barrel someplace and an Vltor VC-1 on an 11.5" (a Vortex on another and a BE Meyers on yet another) but by and large it's A2's.
If/when you do another test, include the Midwest industries. It is in my opinion THE best compromise. A2 flash hiding capability, reduced muzzle rise without a lot of blast.
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=423
I prefer a pure flash hider (i.e. Blackout) and let my Vltor A5 system mitigate recoil and muzzle rise somewhat. It's not as effective as a pure brake/comp, but it's the compromise I'm satisfied with.
If the new BCM comp is universally said to cut flash more than the A2, then I'd consider it...
BufordTJustice
10-13-12, 03:09
Barrel length and ammo type also has much to do with how well a compensater works. I found that the difference the Battlecomp makes is more noticeable on a 16" carbine than it does a 20" rifle
Interesting. I started with a PWS FSC556 on a 16" BCM and later migrated to the same muzzle device on a 14.5" middy from BCM. It made more of a difference on the shorter barrel with regard to muzzle rise and felt recoil. Not a world of difference, but enough for me to not have to drive the gun as hard.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Mission influences gear selection.
Exactly. On my mission, noise, blast, and flash are of only minimal importance. Muzzle rise is pretty much all I care about and the good ol' BattleComp 1.0 has met all of my needs. If my mission changes, maybe I'll re-think. There's a new 50-yard indoor range opening around here soon.
All my muzzle devices are suppressors...
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
plouffedaddy
10-14-12, 08:07
What does your muzzle device do for you
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1085.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1087.jpg
Keeps the muzzle on target better and directs sound forward.
As others have stated it isn't a substitute for training/technique and that likely will matter more.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/DSC00128.jpg
Flash reduction and not increasing noise are number one on my list. I don't think that comps belong on fighting guns. (And I think all ARs should be fighting guns first)
elephantrider
10-15-12, 19:41
Barrel length and ammo type also has much to do with how well a compensater works. I found that the difference the Battlecomp makes is more noticeable on a 16" carbine than it does a 20" rifle
Could part of this perceived difference be a result of different buffer systems on each gun? Say a carbine type buffer Vs. a rifle type?
I am hoping to be able to do an apples to apples comparison of the BC 1.0 to an A2 FH with respect to muzzle rise. I have two nearly identical carbines (same barrel length, gas system, buffer systems, triggers stocks, furniture, etc.) that I can do a side by side comparison with.
These carbines have Vltor A5s on them so there may not be much of a difference in muzzle rise and recovery time between them.
Perhaps my post is a bit confusing. When I read it again, I realized it's poorly written.
To clarify, I have found the Battlecomp to be more effective on a 16" carbine than 20" rifle. My theory is that with the higher pressure of the gases exiting the muzzle of the shorter barrel, the Battlecomp has more push.
The 20" rifle has a carbine RE, spring and buffer but it does weigh more than the 16" carbine
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/DSC_0034.jpg
lifebreath
10-16-12, 16:09
I am hoping to be able to do an apples to apples comparison of the BC 1.0 to an A2 FH with respect to muzzle rise. I have two nearly identical carbines (same barrel length, gas system, buffer systems, triggers stocks, furniture, etc.) that I can do a side by side comparison with.
This is the best side-by-side, apples-to-apples comparison that I have seen. Very informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtVB4IubWyc
I had a SJC Titan on my 3-gun rifle (16" Noveske recce upper), and while it was an effective brake, it was SO obnoxious to shoot that I swapped it for a BC 1.0. The BC is 95%+ as effective and much more pleasant to shoot. The Titan was especially a PITA when shooting from rollover or urban prone, as it would literally excavate a crater and blow all the dirt back in my face.
BC is my pick for best general purpose, all-around muzzle device. I have them on four rifles, but I opted for a straight flash hider (Surefire FH556-212A) for a 14.5" pinned device.
Recoil and Muzzle Rise are two different factors. I just want to make that point.
Also, some muzzle devices are made to direct sound forward or whatever else.
Anyway, my simplified take is this...
Just as dot sights have crossed over and evolved back and forth between competition and tactical applications comps and breaks are looking to be in the same situation. A military grade optic is found on competition guns all the time. Before then, the dots used on competition guns had many benefits, but were not 100% suited for tactical application even though they were an advantage of sorts. Now days they are built with better environmental concern in regard to tactical work by companies like aimpoint and trijicon.
So basically, killing flash can be really is important, but if the benefit of the comp or break can be thrown in, it's good. BCM seems to be addressing that cross-over and I hope it's a good mix.
Also:AR-15 Muzzle Device Discussion video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlikAdNoGo&list=UU1g6qVecwvA-M2T0TJ9UIZg&index=6&feature=plcp)
I have a Miculek comp on my 3 gun rifle. It is extremely effective for reducing recoil/muzzle rise. That being said, there is no way I would use it in a tactical situation. The concussion and blast directed towards the sides is pretty severe, although it is mostly directed away from the shooter. If I am shooting in an enclosed space, it gets an A2.
My 300 BLK either has a DSA 3 prong hider, or suppressor. Really the suppressor is the way to go, flash is almost non-existent and depending on the load ear pro becomes much more optional.
This is the best side-by-side, apples-to-apples comparison that I have seen. Very informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtVB4IubWyc
I had a SJC Titan on my 3-gun rifle (16" Noveske recce upper), and while it was an effective brake, it was SO obnoxious to shoot that I swapped it for a BC 1.0. The BC is 95%+ as effective and much more pleasant to shoot. The Titan was especially a PITA when shooting from rollover or urban prone, as it would literally excavate a crater and blow all the dirt back in my face.
BC is my pick for best general purpose, all-around muzzle device. I have them on four rifles, but I opted for a straight flash hider (Surefire FH556-212A) for a 14.5" pinned device.
I did exactly the same on my 3 gun rifle - while the Bc certainly puts out more blast and noise than an a2 (noticeable from the sides) it is way less obnoxious than a full on brake and as you say, 95% as effective. I also like the fact that my competition rifle is useful in the real world. That said, all the others have a2s - flash hiding more important to me on a mainstream rifle than recoil reduction. If I wasn't so tight id probably go for Smith vortex's which in my experience is still the king of flash supression.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?524-Guide-to-assorted-Flash-Suppressors
I found this thread from another forum via Google, any one care to add?
My BCM mod1 lets me get on target faster, lets me shoot faster, maybe a little more flash than an A2, the over pressure is gone and my team mates love the fact there is less concussion. There is nothing worse than kicking down a door your entire team lights up the subject and you have two or three surefire breaks next to your ear. Flash hiders and the hybrid comps and or a suppressor is the way to go in a tactical environment.
I prefer flash hiders because I've yet to fire any .223 or 5.56 load that produces significant muzzle-flip or recoil that I've felt the need for a comp or brake. In a combat rifle, I believe concealing your position while firing at night would be a more desirable and possibly life-saving feature. There's a reason why our military still issues them.
On another note, I recently picked up another muzzle device named Betty. She gives me regular massages and prepares snacks and meals at my request.
Personally after medically retiring from the .mil with severe hearing loss at age 40 right now. All of my stuff runs suppressed.
What does my muzzle device do for me?
Prevents further hearing loss along with my hearing protection I use.
dmaxfireman
02-12-13, 11:56
I have A2's on everything except for my 10.5 which has a Griffin compensator to act as a sacrificial baffle for my suppressor to extend baffle life.
Well after reading this entire thread, I think I will just keep the A2 on my Colt 6940 and spend the money on other items for the rifle.
Well after reading this entire thread, I think I will just keep the A2 on my Colt 6940 and spend the money on other items for the rifle.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1452611&postcount=245
If/when you do another test, include the Midwest industries. It is in my opinion THE best compromise. A2 flash hiding capability, reduced muzzle rise without a lot of blast.
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=423
Anyone else use/seen/review on this device? The price is right.
edit: Found this, not very informative but a close up Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMDuQ_qiWFc)
RogerinTPA
02-12-13, 16:08
Recoil magazine had a good article on muzzle devices in their last edition:
http://www.recoilweb.com/preview-flash-suppressors-muzzle-brakes-compensators-tip-barrel-5927.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1452611&postcount=245
:laugh: Ash I would have to agree with your comment.
^^ I know this helped me a lot. I've been stuck on what muzzle device to use for my first build and this helped me decide on it. Maybe this could help other first timers or even 2nd, 3rd or 8th timers.
Lawnchair 04
02-12-13, 20:15
Flash hiders on everything till a suppressor shows up then ill put a brake on the sbr as a sacrificial baffle.
Closed bottom Phantoms for me. They reduce flash much more than the standard A2 style, almost as good as the Vortex without that annoying pinging (electronic earpro)... and well, they look cool. :cool:
I run A2's on my guns. Why?
A) I'm too cheap
B) I'd rather buy ammo.
C) I'm too cheap?
TacticalSledgehammer
02-19-13, 23:16
I have the fsc 556 on my ar. I can feel a small improvement over the A2.
...destroys ear drums to my left and right. My newest one will allow me to attach a suppressor as soon as batfe hurries the hell up.
I'm partial to A1's... many of the advantages of the A2, with 100% less indexing.
I'm partial to A1's... many of the advantages of the A2, with 100% less indexing.
Do you honestly find indexing to be that difficult that you're willing to give up the benefits of the A2 over the A1?
Do you honestly find indexing to be that difficult that you're willing to give up the benefits of the A2 over the A1?
What are those?
What are those?
Perhaps I should've said "supposed" benefits. Closed bottom =
1) Reduced dust signature
2) Compensating capabilities
Not validating those benefits, but I don't consider indexing a flash hider to be difficult enough to give them up. Besides, I would index it with the flats anyway...just 'cause I like it that way.
Perhaps I should've said "supposed" benefits. Closed bottom =
1) Reduced dust signature
2) Compensating capabilities
Not validating those benefits, but I don't consider indexing a flash hider to be difficult enough to give them up. Besides, I would index it with the flats anyway...just 'cause I like it that way.
I agree. I index those flat too... but yeah...
1 and 2 are a joke in my experience.
The main benefit of my muzzle device is to hack off liberals to think that it makes my rifle somehow mass murduring baby killer. . . .
Other than that, it protect the threads fro whenever I can afford a suppressor.
Magic_Salad0892
02-20-13, 15:25
Let's me mount a suppressor, and helps me keep my muzzle on target during longer strings of fire.
It's like the gun vibrates, but the sight stays right on target.
Able to see my hits (or misses) on steel at distance.
I checked the flash on the BC vs the Rainier Xtreme comps in very dim light in my clubs underground tunnel /w IMI M193. The flash was very small on both and I think both do a pretty good job there.
The amount of visible fire to the shooter was near the same between the two, with the BC having an edge in the way the flash was configured. The visible fire on the BC was evenly spread about 3/4 of the way around the comp. The visible fire on the Rainier was all at 3:00 and 9:00.
The Rainier does a noticeably better job of controlling muzzle flip *for me*.
ETA: Both are loud, but nowhere near as loud as some of the triple port comps in use at the matches. I refuse to R.O. for those monsters.
Do you honestly find indexing to be that difficult that you're willing to give up the benefits of the A2 over the A1?
Nope.
Crush washers make my suppressor sad, and under the attachment collar, the 'benefits' of the A2 are even less relevant than they are normally.
I'd run a $5 A2 compensator over a Gucci muzzle device any day, but A1s are just as cheap (a little harder to find), and don't use a washer for my application. Money left to buy bullets, and do everything I need.
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