M&P 40 pro averaging 5.5" groups at 25 yards?

[LoneStarM1A]

After reading about all the M&P accuracy problems on the forum, I decided to test my M&P 40 pro 5" accuracy from a rest, at 25 yards.

I will freely admit that I'm not the best shooter in the world, but I shot a different pistol under the same conditions as a control.

Conditions:

Stock M&P 40 pro 5"
S&W installed night sights
25 yards
Federal HST 180gr P40HST1
Pistol frame resting on a rifle rest
Shooter seated, slow fire (approximately 1 shot per minute)
B-16 NRA slow fire pistol targets
85 degrees Fahrenheit
70% humidity
Winds less than 5 knots.
8x 5 shot groups (40 rounds total)
Magazines loaded to 10 rounds
Average Group Size: 5.5"

Here are a few of the targets. Most of the group outliers for the largest groups were the first round of a magzine, as you can see in the first and third targets below. For some reason the first round from a magazine was sometimes impacting 3-4" below the rest of the group (obviously I was manually chambering this round by racking the slide). However, there were a few other 5-6" groups that were unrelated to this. I also tried two groups with different ammo, Federal WM5223 180gr FMJ and got one 4" and one 6.5" group, so not much difference.

I can post the rest of the targets if anyone wants to see them.

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/mp0.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/mp1.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/mp6.jpg




Next for a control I shot my H&K USP40c under the same conditions

Keep in mind this is a smaller pistol with a shorter sight radius than the M&P 40 pro (3.5" vs 5" barrel, 5.35" vs 7.125" sight radius). It has the same type of sights; night sights. It also has the LEM trigger, which is at least 2-3 lbs heavier than the M&P's trigger.

Average Group size for H&K USP 40 compact: 3.877"

Here are a few random targets from the H&K groupings:
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/hk1.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/hk4.jpg


I'm not sure quite what to make of all this. Granted I'm not the best shooter but it's clear that the H&K is about 30% more accurate at this distance, at least in my hands (despite it's shorter sight radius and heavier, LEM trigger).

Just another data point to throw out there....I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed with the M&P. I had hoped it could average less than 4" at 25 yards. Perhaps if I just learn to compensate for the first round low impact, it could.

Another sidenote is that I had to aim the sights about 4" lower on the target to center my rounds with the M&P than with the H&K (held the top of the sights at the bottom of the beige paper for the M&P vs bottom of the black circle for the H&K).

Any advice, thoughts, or concerns are appreciated.

[J-Dub]

Are you shooting from a bench/supported position?

[LoneStarM1A]

Are you shooting from a bench/supported position?

Yes. I was in a chair, resting the front end of the pistol's frame on a "rifle rest". The rifle rest was sitting on a bench directly in front of my chair. It's the same type of setup you see at most commercial shooting ranges.


Stock M&P 40 pro 5"
S&W installed night sights
25 yards
Federal HST 180gr P40HST1
Pistol frame resting on a rifle rest
Shooter seated, slow fire (approximately 1 shot per minute)
B-16 NRA slow fire pistol targets
85 degrees Fahrenheit
70% humidity
Winds less than 5 knots.
8x 5 shot groups (40 rounds total)
Magazines loaded to 10 rounds

[MH64]

I would recommend having another known good shooter try the same setup and see what the results are.

Also, how much time do you have on each pistol?

[LoneStarM1A]

I would recommend having another known good shooter try the same setup and see what the results are.

Also, how much time do you have on each pistol?

10,000+ rounds through the M&P platform. About 1,000 rounds through this particular M&P 40 pro 5".

roughly 3,000 rounds through the H&K USP 40c platform and about 1000 through this particular USP 40c.

I fully expect some YSINTG responses and it's certainly true to an extent. I'm sure you could easily trim 25% off my groups by using a ransom rest; but when shooting the M&P supported slow fire @ 25 yards, I would often let a shot down range feel very good about, expecting a 7 ring or better, only to see a hole at the bottom of the target, on the 5 ring or worse.

The M&P seems occassionally capable of good groups, as target #2 above demonstrates, but the consistent 4-6" low fliers are troublesome. I wonder if it has anything to do with the POI being so high on the M&P compared to the POA (roughly 6" from the top of the front sight to POI at 25 yards).

I agree that having someone else shoot the pistol would be ideal. If anyone in the Austin, TX area wants to volunteer, let me know.

[ClearedHot]

Did you try some different ammo? Some barrels shoot more accurately with heavier rounds, while other barrels are more accurate with lighter projectiles.

[LoneStarM1A]

Did you try some different ammo? Some barrels shoot more accurately with heavier rounds, while other barrels are more accurate with lighter projectiles.

Yes, I also tried Federal WM5223 180gr FMJ "flat nose" and had no better accuracy. I don't have any 155 or 165 gr .40 ammo on hand but I'll try some when I get a chance. 180gr is by far the most common and usually the only thing you find in stores.


However, there were a few other 5-6" groups that were unrelated to this. I also tried two groups with different ammo, Federal WM5223 180gr FMJ and got one 4" and one 6.5" group, so not much difference.

[Steve S.]

I don't think the .40s are being reported as affected by the accuracy issues, are they?

It was my understanding it was a combination of early unlocking and using a .38special twist rate on a 9mm barrel that was causing the issues with the 9mm guns.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I think it comes down to HK makes some of the most mechanically accurate pistols available. This has pretty much always been the case. The M&P has always been middling. I ditched my M&P nine because it shot groups many times larger than my P30. I later picked up a .40 and it seems ok. Sell it.

[djmorris]

I think it comes down to HK makes some of the most mechanically accurate pistols available.

Bingo.

The M&P costs about $300 less than an HK. That's pretty telling right there.

[LoneStarM1A]

More data:

This was done at 10 yards. 24 dots, 5 shots each. 60 rounds with the M&P, and 60 rounds with the H&K, Indoor range, supported from a rifle rest, Federal HST 180gr P40HST1 ammo.

Average Accuracy M&P 40 pro 5", 10 yards = 2.14"

Average Accuracy H&K USP 40c (3.5"), 10 yards = 1.44"

This is VERY consistent with what I'm seeing at 25 yards.

H&K top, M&P bottom on this one; Group 11 low shot was 1st shot of an M&P magazine, however groups 7 & 9 were also fresh mags that didn't have a flier on the first round.
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/hkmp0.jpg

M&P top, H&K bottom ont his one: Group 1,3,5,6 low shots were all 1st shots of an M&P magazine!
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/hkmp2.jpg


In Addition....I had a range officer shoot the M&P with two seperate 5 round mags. He shot a 5 round group at 3 yards his first shot was 1.5" lower than the others; the other 4 shots were one ragged hole. He then shot 5 round group at 10 yards on the head of a human outline target, going for head shots. The first shot hit the left eye, the next shot went over the head, off the paper, the 3rd shot barely skimmed the top of the paper, the 4th shot was at the top of the forehead and he walked the last shot back close to the first one (I'm guessing he was adjusting his POA as his shots started flying too high).

So yeah...even with another guy shooting my M&P, the first shot of the magazines were roughly 10 MOA lower than the rest.

Without these 1st round of magazine fliers, the M&P would be equal to the H&K if not better.

Thoughts?

[LoneStarM1A]

Just felt like I should update this thread now that the situation is resolved:

I sent the pistol back to S&W and they put a new barrel in it. The new barrel has a different design than the old one with more reinforcement in the locking block area. I shot half a box of ammo through it this afternoon and was pleased with the results. It has the same 3-dot night sights as before, which are novak's with a .135" wide x .165" tall front w/ a .140 wide notched, ramped rear sight. The ammo was Federal HST 180gr JHP P40HST1, like always.

The first group I shot today using center hold. After that group, I adjusted to a 6 o'clock hold and the rounds started landing in the black nicely. These 5, five-shot groups averaged 3.11" center-to-center at 25 yards, fired slow fire from a sandbag on a rest, 80 degrees F and 50% humidity, calm wind.

All in all I'm very pleased with the replacement barrel S&W provided. It has effectively cut my group size with this pistol in half. The "first round low" phenomenon is totally gone and I'm very happy with this M&P now; it's shooting as well in my hands as any other pistol I own, including the H&K's and revolvers. It now appears to be shooting under 4" at 25 yards pretty consistently, and the 1.863" group is a personal best so far!

I'm going to call this "case closed" . Congratulations to S&W on their fine customer service.

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/new1_zps3a0220df.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/new5_zps566be9fc.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/new4_zps7395afbd.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/new3_zps80bfb2df.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/new2_zps85bfa8ea.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae219/randomperson8008/glamour_zps6713468d.jpg

Photo courtesy of 10-8 performance, old barrel vs new barrel:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rv7Bf2A8VQU/T-dHcRKg7bI/AAAAAAAAAQo/cdHYF9HFmAY/s1600/M%2526P-Barrels-2.jpg

[straterman]

What one is the new barrel top or bottom?

[straterman]

Nevermind

[HKGuns]

Interesting post and GREAT data! Good to see someone actually posting data rather than just opinion. I would have initially posted a reply stating it was the Indian and not the arrow. However, your data showed that was 100% not the case.

My hat is off to you and S&W, but mostly you, for not giving up and giving them the opportunity to make it right for you. Too many of these pistols get passed around instead of being sent back to make things right.