Handgun RDS, smaller dot sizes?

[glen]

To those who have spent time with RDS on your carry/duty gun, what are your thoughts on dot size?

I understand the general consensus is 7-8 MOA or so for handguns, and I did go with an RMR02 on my G19. But spending some time on accuracy drills, I wonder if a smaller dot might allow me to shoot more accurately and still be fast enough for "combat" use?

I have had this on my mind for a while, and since I saw DocGKR mention somewhere he was also trying smaller dots, I am wondering how other dedicated and experienced handgun RDS users feel about this.

[Airborne Infantryman]

There are a number of factors to consider, and honestly, I find it to be preference.

For instance, I hate anything that uses batteries. I did the research, understood, and accepted the limitations and shortcomings of the Dual-Illuminated RMRs, and I opted for the RM05 RMR (9 MOA Dot, Dual-Illuminated), as a lot of people recommended no less than an 7-8 MOA dot for a pistol.

The 9 MOA is nice, as its slightly thinner than my front suppressor sight.

I find that I can still hit chest-sized steel off-hand at 100 yards with no issues with the 9 MOA dot. You may prefer a smaller dot if its just a range toy, however, I would opt for a bigger dot for CC/Duty use.

A lot of experienced RDS users also advocate the RM07 6.5 MOA adjustable LED model RMR, as you can turn up the brightness for a "bigger" dot, or turn it down for a "smaller" dot. It also has an auto-adjust mode as well. Honestly, a lot of it depends on your eyesight, and how much you train with whichever MOA dot you choose, as to how accurate and fast you can hit with it.


Here is a pic of the view through my Glock 19- in real life, the dot is NOWHERE near as big as in the picture. The 9 MOA dot is just a little bit thinner than my front suppressor sight as I mentioned above. Its just that my camera sucks. Hopefully that can give you an idea as to what to expect when going with a lower MOA dot.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8323/8087557492_fce064447f_b.jpg

[glen]

Thanks for the pic Airborne.

True, there are so many other things to consider. However, to simplify the discussion a bit, let's assume everything else being equal, would you go bigger, smaller, or stay the same with regards to dot size, and why?

I use an 8MOA RMR on my G19, and the dot is narrower than the front night sight as well. However, I find the suppressor night sights to be bulky, and even with the thinnest front night sights (.125) I often wished for a bit thinner.

I just got to thinking that maybe smaller than the usual 8MOA dots might give the gun a more "surgical" capacity without taking away from being able to make quick COM hits as needed. Sort of like how a 2MOA T1 on your SBR can let you make precision shots without sacrificing close in speed if you want it...within reason, of course.

All of this is not bashing the 8MOA RMR in the least. It is a superb combat sight as is and I am thoroughly impressed with it so far.

[wahoo95]

Doesn't the 8moa dot only cover 2" or so at 25yds? Are you shooting better than that offhand?

[Airborne Infantryman]

Thanks for the pic Airborne.

True, there are so many other things to consider. However, to simplify the discussion a bit, let's assume everything else being equal, would you go bigger, smaller, or stay the same with regards to dot size, and why?

I use an 8MOA RMR on my G19, and the dot is narrower than the front night sight as well. However, I find the suppressor night sights to be bulky, and even with the thinnest front night sights (.125) I often wished for a bit thinner.

I just got to thinking that maybe smaller than the usual 8MOA dots might give the gun a more "surgical" capacity without taking away from being able to make quick COM hits as needed. Sort of like how a 2MOA T1 on your SBR can let you make precision shots without sacrificing close in speed if you want it...within reason, of course.

All of this is not bashing the 8MOA RMR in the least. It is a superb combat sight as is and I am thoroughly impressed with it so far.

All valid points on your end. I recommend experimenting, so you can find your "zen", per say. I think you'd be very well-served by an adjustable LED RM07 w/ the 6.5 MOA dot, as you mentioned above, you can "adjust" the dot size with the brightness settings.

If I did it over again, I would stay with the RM05. I find it to be the perfect balance of being able to quickly pick up the dot, while not sacrificing much at 100 yards on a steel target. It also meets my battery-free preference.

I agree that the front suppressor sight could be thinner. I've thought about swapping out the tritium suppressor sights for the standard suppressor sights w/ the "thin" .90 front, but decided I like having the night sights to sort of guide me in to the dot in low-light.

[glen]

Doesn't the 8moa dot only cover 2" or so at 25yds? Are you shooting better than that offhand?

I wish. :)

But wouldnt more precise sights enable you to wring out the most accuracy out of the system to the limit of its weakest link (which in this case, is definitely me)?

I am just interested in taking full advantage of the accuracy aspect of the handgun RDS concept, especially at longer ranges. This all without sacrificing practical speed, of course.

Airborne, yes, dot size "zen" is a good way to describe it. :D. I have by no means dismissed 8MOA. I may end up going full circle back to it, who knows?

I am kinda leery of the adjustable illum RMR ATM because of reported problems and my carry position (AIWB) which puts the side of the optic against my body and increases the chance of the inadvertent intensity adjustment complaints against the adjustable RMRs.

And I feel the same on the sights, they help me imdex faster too, especially when pressing out from unconventional positions or one-handed.

[BTL BRN]

Currently I have an RMR02 on my G19, but if I would like to try the 07 not so much for the dot difference but the adjustability factor. I have read that there were/are some issues with them however, and I don't know if these still exist. In using the 02 now for about a year, I don't think a smaller dot would be a bad thing however, I would like to get some time behind one.

ETA - I have a G17 that I would like to have milled and an RMR added to, my G19 was done by TSD and while I think they did an ok job, the front sight came loose within the first 500 rounds and the RMR screws turned about 1/16 after nearly the same round count. I removed both the front sight and RMR and didn't see any evidence of blue loctite, there was some kind of clear sealant on the threads of the RMR; maybe silicone something? A good friend had a G22 done by TSD and the front sight started to rust after only a few weeks. Maybe an issue with the type of sights they are using more than TSD however. I think my next Glock is going to go to L&M though, his prices are very competitive and I have read nothing but good things about his work.

[glen]

I don't think a smaller dot would be a bad thing however, I would like to get some time behind one.


My thoughts too ATM.

BTW that clear stuff might be nail polish, often used as a substitute for thread locker. :)

Looking around a bit, it seems there is a bit of interest in some group of RDS users to explore other dot sizes besides the standard 8MOA dot. As I mentioned, DocGKR is or was trying a smaller dot (Doc hoping you see this and chime in) and I just chanced on some talk of Gabe Suarez tending to the 6.5MOA adjustable version.

I have been following the evolution of handgun RDS use long before I was able to get my own, and things changed a lot as their use became more widespread. For example, for the longest time I remember that many advocated plain black BUIS, as night sights would alegedly slow down dot acquisition in the dark. I decided to get tritium, thinking I would just black them out if they really got in the way. I am glad I did and I see they are now in fact recommended.

Point being, RDS use is relatively young and evolving and this may be one area it is evolving also. I say this based on personal observations and at the same time seeing some serious industry RDS users experimenting with different RDS dot sizes, I am curious if any other RDS users here have been thinking the same.

[Airborne Infantryman]

My thoughts too ATM.

BTW that clear stuff might be nail polish, often used as a substitute for thread locker. :)

Looking around a bit, it seems there is a bit of interest in some group of RDS users to explore other dot sizes besides the standard 8MOA dot. As I mentioned, DocGKR is or was trying a smaller dot (Doc hoping you see this and chime in) and I just chanced on some talk of Gabe Suarez tending to the 6.5MOA adjustable version.

I have been following the evolution of handgun RDS use long before I was able to get my own, and things changed a lot as their use became more widespread. For example, for the longest time I remember that many advocated plain black BUIS, as night sights would alegedly slow down dot acquisition in the dark. I decided to get tritium, thinking I would just black them out if they really got in the way. I am glad I did and I see they are now in fact recommended.

Point being, RDS use is relatively young and evolving and this may be one area it is evolving also. I say this based on personal observations and at the same time seeing some serious industry RDS users experimenting with different RDS dot sizes, I am curious if any other RDS users here have been thinking the same.

I highly recommend blacking out the white rings around your tritium vials on your night sights. My picture above shows mine blacked out. I found that the white rings pulled my eye away from the dot of the RMR. Easily fixed.

From here on out, if I get a gun with night sights, I black out the rear white rings, then use florescent orange glow in the dark nail polish on the front white ring, sort of like "poor mans Trijicon HDs". I actually works freaking marvelously.

I used some of my wife's matte black fingernail polish. I put a coat on, let it dry, until I had 3 coats on it. I then took some nail polish remover and cleaned the nailpolish off the tritium vial, and BAM. The advantages of the plain black BUIS during the day, and the tritium to guide you into the dot at night. Best of both worlds.....just wish the front tritium BUIS was thinner, but alas, they can only be so thin beings there is a tritium vial in there. I think AmeriGlo made them as thin as they could, without risking the tritium vial falling out or getting damaged.

[glen]

I highly recommend blacking out the white rings around your tritium vials on your night sights. My picture above shows mine blacked out. I found that the white rings pulled my eye away from the dot of the RMR. Easily fixed.

From here on out, if I get a gun with night sights, I black out the rear white rings, then use florescent orange glow in the dark nail polish on the front white ring, sort of like "poor mans Trijicon HDs". I actually works freaking marvelously.

I used some of my wife's matte black fingernail polish. I put a coat on, let it dry, until I had 3 coats on it. I then took some nail polish remover and cleaned the nailpolish off the tritium vial, and BAM. The advantages of the plain black BUIS during the day, and the tritium to guide you into the dot at night. Best of both worlds.....just wish the front tritium BUIS was thinner, but alas, they can only be so thin beings there is a tritium vial in there. I think AmeriGlo made them as thin as they could, without risking the tritium vial falling out or getting damaged.

Yes I agree, I actually did the exact same thing on my rear sights, with a sharpie. What I did was just wrote over the whole thing then wipe off the ink on the lens before it dried. The rings being recessed hold the ink very well. Will look into trying that in a bright color for the fronts. :)

Yup, thinnest I ever saw anyone go for tritium fronts is .125...i would have loved a nice high .110 night sight.

ETA: Pic of rear sights

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff116/g300d/EE2905FC-1C44-418D-B953-A0A56460A7D6-687-00000123C91F4315.jpg

[dougwg]

Aim small miss small

There are no advantages to a bigger dot.

[NCPatrolAR]

I have time with multiple RMRs to include a RMR01. IME, I find I'm most accurate with the 01, but the larger dot models are easier to initially pick up as I'm pushing the gun out and on to target.

[glen]

Aim small miss small

There are no advantages to a bigger dot.

Yup, I am thinking this might be the case for me.

What is the most common size dot people are asking you to install nowadays?

Any heavy users you know experimenting or switching along these lines?

Love your work BTW, some of the best I've seen!

[glen]

I have time with multiple RMRs to include a RMR01. IME, I find I'm most accurate with the 01, but the larger dot models are easier to initially pick up as I'm pushing the gun out and on to target.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

So the smaller dots can increase accuracy potential.

Weighing the pros and cons, which do you end up prefering all around? Is your current opinion on this area different from when you first started with RDS on handguns?

[NCPatrolAR]

Thanks for sharing your experience!

So the smaller dots can increase accuracy potential.

Weighing the pros and cons, which do you end up prefering all around? Is your current opinion on this area different from when you first started with RDS on handguns?

Honestly I'm still undecided. I dont have issues banging torso sized steel at 75 meters with the 8MOA dot versions but I havent shot it on paper at that distance

[glen]

Honestly I'm still undecided. I dont have issues banging torso sized steel at 75 meters with the 8MOA dot versions but I havent shot it on paper at that distance

Gotcha, thanks!

BTW, how noticeable is diference in initial pick up you mentioned at close to mid range (say out to 25 or so) with a small dot vs big dot? How about shot to shot in strings of fire, any difference in that type of shooting?

[DocGKR]

Initially I liked a larger 6-8 MOA red dot for my slide mounted RDS. However, the more I shoot the handgun RDS, the more I am coming to appreciate a smaller dot. I've started experimenting with the 3.5-4 MOA dots on my training pistols and are starting to really like them, especially for longer range shooting. I am looking forward to trying a 2 MOA micro-Aimpoint on a Unity Tactical mount in the near future to see how that will do at 50+ yds.

Nonetheless, for Duty/CCW pistols, I am still preferring the 8 MOA RMR02, as it works very well for most of my shooting needs and is never inadvertently off or dim, they fit in lots of holsters, and don't tend to break like the RMR-A's (RMR06/07) have been doing (hopefully the new robust improvements Trijicon is introducing on will fix this issue). For folks operating in adverse conditions--swimming, surf zone, dusty environments, mud, snow/sleet/heavy rain, etc... the micro-Aimpoint is the only viable option.

[NCPatrolAR]

Gotcha, thanks!

BTW, how noticeable is diference in initial pick up you mentioned at close to mid range (say out to 25 or so) with a small dot vs big dot? How about shot to shot in strings of fire, any difference in that type of shooting?

I've found that its easier to just track the front sight (suppressor height) and pick up the dot as youre dropping the front sight in the rear notch.

For shot to shot tracking I, once again, just track the irons.

[Jack-O]

I've played with the RMR 4moa dot w/"BUIS behind" config and own a deltapoint "BUIS in front" config with the 7.5 delta. here are my impressions from a few matches and some field shooting with a G20 10mm and full power loads:

BUIS behind is a distraction from the primary system which is the red dot. further any sort of dot based sights draw the eye away and slow things down a wee bit. training issue... KINDA.

I like the deltapoint as I feel it is tough enough (NOT as tough as the RMR) and has a larger and wider field of view which speeds up aquisition. the lens also seems clearer to me and the outline of the lens body is not as "in your face" as the RMR. less distraction. personal preference... ak vs ar.

As to dot size. I'm in the smaller is better crowd ... to a point. I think 2moa is as small as I'd go with 4moa being just fine. Heres why... when shooting quickly, up close or under duress, sight picture just doesnt come into play for me, to a point. I depend on index and speed to get it done. at further ranges when you have more time you can slow down and find the dot then take a more accurate shot AT WHICH POINT the size doesnt NEED to be large, just "bright enough". I have found that the larger dot does cover a LOT of target and thus the "aim small miss small" thing get to be difficult. With the delta I can use the peak as an aimpoint and that kinda solves it. for faster shots I just use the body and call it good enough.

Another thing that has helped a great deal with the red dot for me is a much lighter trigger. I'd say a 4# would be good, but mine is sitting at about 5 and has helped a great deal over stock Glock with the 10mm.


So in summation. deltapoint with black suppressor sights is fast and least obtrusive to shooting. the delta while large gives good precision. When in doubt as to dot size my advice is to go smaller but not smaller than 2moa.

[dougwg]

Yup, I am thinking this might be the case for me.

What is the most common size dot people are asking you to install nowadays?

Any heavy users you know experimenting or switching along these lines?

Love your work BTW, some of the best I've seen!

Well....the most common size doesn't really matter if some trainer told someone that they should get "X". As the sampling is tainted by opinion and "well X trainer said this".

The only "advantage" I hear is the bigger dot is easier to pick up, to which I say BS. You either see dot or you do not see dot.

Been running a dot for over 2 years. The 13MOA SUCKED for precise shooting. An 8MOA or 6.5 or whatever "medium size dot" sucks less for precise shots and the "small size dots" suck the least.

I run an RM01 with no rear BUIS and a stock height front sight painted white.

Thank you for the kind words :)

[Jack-O]

Another plus to the delta is that the very tip of the delta make a great prescison aiming point and the body makes a really obvious one.

I have sighted my tip in at 13 yards which also means that at 45 yard the tip is zeroed for POA/POI. This gives me a BSZ of like 50 yards with a +-1/2" variance between 5 and 50 yards. I'm -3" at 75 or roughly the center of the delta.

Going further I can use the BOTTOM of the delta as an aimpoint to get out to 100 yards.

A smaller DOT will give more prescison than a larger one, but the delta also gives an even better precision with multiple aim points.

Yeah, I never got the "larger dot is faster to pick up" thing, since it's a brilliant red laser dot pointing at your eye... it's gonna be easy to see. for me it's always been about the correct brightness level to get a decent non sparkly dot.