View Full Version : Do you judge people by....
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
lethal dose
10-15-12, 22:08
I don't believe many people follow the old "don't judge a book by it's cover" adage... myself included. Naturally, I feel the same way as you but also know a small handful of folks with gimmicky lowers who train hard and often.
The problem with judging people is the same across all forms. You have to lump them all in one group. Which is impossible because there are too many roads to get to the same spot.
I'm guessing that a number of different factors are involved.
1. People that fall into your stereotype.
2. People looking for a cheap lower that happened to have that shit on it.
3. People whom started out in your stereotype and then realized that there was more to it and decided to get more training ect.
4. People that bought them to have an extra around due to worry from another ban. (2008)
5. Ect
No. There are plenty of stone cold killers rocking DPMS out there.
I'm a little more generous in my assessment. But after the DPMS LOWER , coupled with a "all AR's are the same" comment. My mind and thoughts digress quickly.
But I don't care as long as he is a gentleman. Its the guy that is an asshole behind the counter and speaks down to a curious customer then says 10 stupid things.
This may provoke more out of me than judgement.
Oh we'll, enough on that.
I've been guilty of sterotyping but, it's really never just the rollmark for me. I usually look at the rifle as a whole and if it's completely decked out in chicom knockoffs, that's when I think the things you've listed.
edited: spelling
Should have included fake cans/ anything
Thats when i start to make these assumptions
Wtf would you buy a fake can/ grenade launcher/ anything unless you fit these stereotypes in your op
As i have said before, i would rather have a 20 rd box of ANY ammo than a fake anything.
At first I use to think that too. The folks I do know that own rifles with those lowers also own other "high end" lowers which they use primarily for training, competition, etc. I do see an increase of those types of lowers showing up to our courses though. And yes they often malfunction compared to other quality builds. After talking to them about it, I've found they were built from a stripped lower. At least I don't see any issued/duty rifles with these roll marks on them.
The problem with judging people is the same across all forms. You have to lump them all in one group. Which is impossible because there are too many roads to get to the same spot.
I'm guessing that a number of different factors are involved.
1. People that fall into your stereotype.
2. People looking for a cheap lower that happened to have that shit on it.
3. People whom started out in your stereotype and then realized that there was more to it and decided to get more training ect.
4. People that bought them to have an extra around due to worry from another ban. (2008)
5. Ect
All true. My post was somewhat tongue in cheek and I know it is wrong to ASSume, but sometimes I just cannot help myself. I think I need counseling. :jester:
C4
No. There are plenty of stone cold killers rocking DPMS out there.
I would take a DPMS over many of the lowers I see today.
Just sayin....
C4
I've been guilty of sterotyping but, it's really never just the rollmark for me. I usually look at the rifle as a whole and if it's completely decked out in chicom knockoffs, that's when I think the things you've listed.
edited: spelling
Agree. I look over the entire AR and then make my decision that they are a moron. :D
C4
I try to give the benefit of doubt, but sometimes I cant help it.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
What lower has two male organs trying to crush a bug??? Just curious which one that is so that I never end up with one of those.
I too pass judgement based on the roll marks. But only when they say it is "just as good as Colt", or when they say the .mil uses it. That usually happens at the gun shows or shops. My friends are all educated enough on AR's to stay away from the junk. The one who has a BM admits his isn't as good as, and has made a couple improvements to increase reliablity.
What lower has two male organs trying to crush a bug??? Just curious which one that is so that I never end up with one of those.
I too pass judgement based on the roll marks. But only when they say it is "just as good as Colt", or when they say the .mil uses it. That usually happens at the gun shows or shops. My friends are all educated enough on AR's to stay away from the junk. The one who has a BM admits his isn't as good as, and has made a couple improvements to increase reliablity.
The refrenced lower is Spikes Tactical.
The things you mentioned denote a lack of knowledge. Exactly what the NATURE of this deficiency is can vary, though.
I got my GF into ARs when she saw a Spike's zombie-marked lower which she then bought as her first rifle. Later that week I got her to purchase a 6920 after explaining some stuff to her.
Some folks own silly lowers because they were cheap. Others own them as a joke. If it gets them to the range, I don't care as long as they're safe and get out shooting. Hell, my first AR was a post-ban Bushmaster with a horrible chinese red-dot, "sniper" pistol grip (with the disc thing at the bottom), full A2 stock and OEM 10-rd mag. I eventually saw the light because I got into it deeper and deeper, but it all started with that silly setup.
However, if they spout off nonsense and "don't know what they don't know", we have a problem.
The refrenced lower is Spikes Tactical.
I tried using my imagination and the spider does look like that. LMAO! Glad I won't even consider them!
TacMedic556
10-15-12, 23:06
Amen Grant. I was recently referred to, get this, it is new to me, as a, "Another Tier queer" for trying to talk a guy into buying a Colt 6920 as his first M4 variant. Simply because I stated some facts about why a Colt is a better choice than some.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
GeorgiaBoy
10-15-12, 23:14
If it works, it shouldn't matter what roll mark the lower has on it.
This is like poking fun at a guy because he has a U.S. Polo Association shirt on instead of an actual Polo Ralph Lauren, when it does the same thing.*
Ridiculous, and I don't even own organ-squishing-bug lowers.
*Ralph Lauren HPT's and MPI's their collars, though.
Just as a newb question, when I say that my current rifle (BCM 14.5" mid with Battle comp and DD OMEGA, BCM lower) is "just as good" as the Colt M4 I put through so much torture over seas, am I being accurate?
Serious question. I did my research before buying, but never heard that comparison.
justin_247
10-15-12, 23:18
I think the whole zombie craze is ridiculous and I find it hard to believe that any of those folks would attend a carbine course with that on their rifle.
That being said, I think most people should be judged by their skills and whether they are taking the time and effort to improve themselves instead of being judged based upon whether they have a snake or a spider plastered on the side of their lower.
BrigandTwoFour
10-15-12, 23:22
I don't put much stock in the roll mark. My first gun was built on a Spikes stripped lower and upper. But the guts were centurion, BCM, Geissele, and VLTOR. I did my research, as I expect most people who read these forums enough do.
My second gun was built on a BCM, though. Frankly, I went that route because I knew going with another stripped Spikes available at my local gun shop would earn ridicule.
A lot of it comes down to availability. At the price point that I pay for a BCM, LMT, or other lower, then shipping, then transfer fees, did I really come out better than buying the Spikes they had sitting under glass? I didn't think so.
Now, the other brands they have that I've never heard of (Ardel Engineering, for example), I avoid those.
I always thought the spikes roll mark looked like Darth Vader.
misanthropist
10-15-12, 23:39
It might form a part of a matrix I would use to judge someone. But it would be fairly low on the list.
A well set-up gun with a roll-mark that doesn't impress me would generate a much more favourable response than a Colt with a grip-pod, a bushnell trophy 3-9 and a CAA stock.
It may be a result of the more limited (and much more expensive) Canadian market, but I rarely see people whose main issue stems from selecting equipment of insufficient quality.
What I generally see is people who own guns and don't shoot them much, or, when they do, shoot them in unstructured ways that don't result in increasing skill.
I would much rather see someone with a cheap Norinco AR and several crates of empty brass than someone with a Mag-Pul'd up Colt with a Centurion rail...who never shoots his prized possession.
That may be less common in the US where guns are cheap and ammo is still relatively cheap compared to what we pay up here...but it's very common in Canada.
It's not that I don't think there are objective, measurable advantages to the "tier one" guns...obviously there are. It's just that most of the people I encounter who are having issues, are having USER issues, not gun issues.
I shoot Wolf in my AK. Don't hate me.
I do admit that I create possible scenarios in my head about folks based on their firearms and choice of accessories. But I try to give them the benefit of the doubt until I get to know them better.
Still, there are some indicators that I take as a clue that I don't want to wait around long enough to find out how close folks match up to my prejudices
justin_247
10-15-12, 23:57
Here's my list of silly rollmarks that I can think of offhand...
Service logos
Spider (I'll admit that I have some lowers with this on it)
Deer
Snake
Bear
Biohazard symbol
Zombie in crosshairs
Skull and crossbones
"ZOMBIE DEFENSE"
AR15.com bolt face
Nuclear energy symbol
Lion in crosshairs
Dancing beast thing
"PLUMCRAZY FIREARMS"
Pirate symbol
Bison skull
Obama
Crosshairs
Indian battle ax
Airplane taking off
Being that encompasses the majority of stripped lowers out there, it's going to be hard to avoid them. And you're going to pay a markup for an LMT, BCM, S&W, DD, Noveske, or Colt lower. The only two budget lowers with a decent logo is LRB and PSA.
Freedoooom
10-16-12, 00:16
Here's my list of silly rollmarks that I can think of offhand...
Service logos
Spider (I'll admit that I have some lowers with this on it)
Deer
Snake
Bear
Biohazard symbol
Zombie in crosshairs
Skull and crossbones
"ZOMBIE DEFENSE"
AR15.com bolt face
Nuclear energy symbol
Lion in crosshairs
Dancing beast thing
"PLUMCRAZY FIREARMS"
Pirate symbol
Bison skull
Obama
Crosshairs
Indian battle ax
Airplane taking off
Being that encompasses the majority of stripped lowers out there, it's going to be hard to avoid them. And you're going to pay a markup for an LMT, BCM, S&W, DD, Noveske, or Colt lower. The only two budget lowers with a decent logo is LRB and PSA.
Bison skull is Bison Armory...
sinlessorrow
10-16-12, 00:17
Two male organs trying to crush a bug......bahahahaa that was a good one, sadly my current lower seems to sport that exact thing, to bad its a registered sbr. Onl reason I have it is my local guy had a great deal on the lower and it was properly built, though I quickly replaced the LPK to a Geissele SSA.
I do have to say though I have a habit of iudging people based off the rifles they are at the range with and I am usually right.
Two male organs trying to crush a bug......bahahahaa that was a good one, sadly my current lower seems to sport that exact thing, to bad its a registered sbr. Onl reason I have it is my local guy had a great deal on the lower and it was properly built, though I quickly replaced the LPK to a Geissele SSA.
I do have to say though I have a habit of iudging people based off the rifles they are at the range with and I am usually right.
Three words: Black Duct Tape
At first I use to think that too. The folks I do know that own rifles with those lowers also own other "high end" lowers which they use primarily for training, competition, etc. I do see an increase of those types of lowers showing up to our courses though. And yes they often malfunction compared to other quality builds. After talking to them about it, I've found they were built from a stripped lower. At least I don't see any issued/duty rifles with these roll marks on them.
Can you please tell what kind of malfunctions do the "other" lowers have at your courses? And in your professional opinion, who make the lower that is good to go and why?
I could give a shit less what kind of lower folks are rollin' with, as long as they don't color the rollmark in.
My lower is a DPMS and the internals are Bushmaster, The upper is CMMG from when they where one of the favorites (the AR crowd is somewhat fickle)
It's been through 6 thousand rounds or so, including a ton of Wolf, in classes, competition and training.
I've got a KISS Bushmaster from when the mantra was "ABC," as in "if its Armalite Bushmaster or Colt it's good to go." It also has a few thousand rounds through it.
After a few mistakes when I got going I have always bought the best I could, where it mattered. And any AR I have, even if someone gave me a Colt or Noveske, has certain spare parts on board, as well as a clearing rod.
I don't judge people on their guns, if I'm going to judge it's on how they shoot. If they shoot well their gun was probably reliable enough to get them there. I take that back, I look down at certain set ups. If I see a China Mart 3-9 sitting in an M4gery its a sign. A lack of BUIS always bothers me. But the gear queers bother me as much as the people who don't know better. When I see a top dollar quad rail sporting nothing but rail covers it makes me think- "man that's almost a case of ammo."
justin_247
10-16-12, 00:45
Bison skull is Bison Armory...
I know what ALL of them are.
This thread is entertaining. High end gear snobs can piss off, not everyones AR15 is their life and only hobby.. Yep zombie shit is gay and squashed bugs are the tapout crowd..but they still work just like the "cool" brands do.. But I gotta draw the line somewhere, so I agree with Akdoug.. All in good fun..
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
Here is my list for people who post in general discussion.... oh wait....
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!" (if they own an AR)
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse
2nd.amendment
10-16-12, 01:14
I judge more on the basis of component/accessories than rollmarks.
Having said that, I just can't seem to wrap my head around those people who swoon at sight of a spider. Those thing sell like hotcakes on arfcom.
Gotta draw the line somewhere is right :D
http://i.min.us/ibV6xy.JPG
http://i49.tinypic.com/1r3qtt.jpg
vicious_cb
10-16-12, 01:27
Not the lower but what is on the AR, how they dress(trying to be tacticool or wearing sandals at the range), how fit they are(fatties), how they shooting(benched or offhand), how they are holding the carbine(looking for magwell grips usually)
Also most of my lowers are spikes, got them at whole sales prices for about $70 each after the obongo panic died down, but the uppers that sit on top of them are BCM, LMT or custom builds.
pointblank4445
10-16-12, 01:38
I always thought the spikes roll mark looked like Darth Vader.
Stick with that...for once you see, it can not be unseen.
Gotta draw the line somewhere is right :D
The lower looks like it survived fine :blink:
Stick with that...for once you see, it can not be unseen.
This is so true. Someone mentioned the two dicks smushing a spider thingy, so I look it up, and bam. Ewwww!
Haha,
does this look familiar?
http://whiskeygoldmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cazadores-deer-pic.jpg
https://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.rd-airsoft.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Stag-Arms-Interview-300x231.jpg&sa=X&ei=BgN9UK_5J-OUiALQi4DIDw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGqzIhkePJONBwEdWBWc_-CjBiWtQ
Magic_Salad0892
10-16-12, 01:52
This is so true. Someone mentioned the two dicks smushing a spider thingy, so I look it up, and bam. Ewwww!
Haha,
does this look familiar?
http://whiskeygoldmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cazadores-deer-pic.jpg
https://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.rd-airsoft.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Stag-Arms-Interview-300x231.jpg&sa=X&ei=BgN9UK_5J-OUiALQi4DIDw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGqzIhkePJONBwEdWBWc_-CjBiWtQ
HAHAHA. That's awesome.
I bought a lower here in Ca when they had a rush on them. Everyone was buying them because they found a way around the ban. I found only one guy at a gun show selling it and I got my pants pulled down over the price for a stripped lower. Oh well, thats supply and demand at its finest. Not sure how you fella's rate it but it's a DSA inc. on the mag well it has a Spartan shield and say "Malon Labe" below it.
HAHAHA. That's awesome.
Originally, I was going to call it my Jaeger-lower (as in Jaegermesiter) but the angle is not quite right and the Cazadores logo works better. Tequila>Licorice schnapps anyway.
Feel bad for this guy now that I'm informed about the penis lowers:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Spikes-Tactical-Rally-Fighter.jpg
I do even though I know I shouldn't. I had a friend who was having trouble with his AR-15 and when I looked at it I discovered that he had purchased a franken-gun and the roll mark was some Zombie shit. I advised him best I could but he saw my Daniel Defense running just fine and he decided to scrap it and buy a DDm7 and move on.
Should I buy a plastic AR15?
NO.
I bought a plastic AR15.
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q668/mkintner3/IMG_0356_zps972590cd.jpg
http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy324/recon013/DSCN0312.jpg
Dont judge....just float on right....?
Magic_Salad0892
10-16-12, 02:12
If the lower receiver doesn't take on any stress from the upper then how did that happen?
Wow, are the FCG, selector, and BCA also made out of plastic?
:facepalm:
filthy phil
10-16-12, 03:18
Wtf would you buy a fake can/ grenade launcher/ anything unless you fit these stereotypes in your op
.
I saw one owner used a fake can to attain barrel length while waiting his form one. (iirc this was an ak) easy to cut off when it came in
I view the AR15 as a tool. As soon as someone turns that tool into a toy or piece of jewelry you have immediately lost half your firearms credibility.
Will_Power
10-16-12, 04:15
A well set-up gun with a roll-mark that doesn't impress me would generate a much more favourable response than a Colt with a grip-pod, a bushnell trophy 3-9 and a CAA stock.
That's how it comes down for me, too.
Saw an AR on consignment at the LGS a few weeks ago: Noveske lower and Zweiss 4x-12/14 (I forget) glass with bipod attached to a picatinny gas block and standard, non-floated heat shield handguards. Definitely made me wonder...
I judge a lot but its hard not too. When I walk into local gun shops I have to hold breath and bite my tongue. When I go to the range I just nod my head and keep my distance. Its hard to explain what my iron sight only BCM is about to someone who owns a DPMS with Chinese optics and has never heard of BCM or LMT yada yada.
At the same time I understand that I could be judged. I'm no Larry Vickers with shooting or IraqGuns with armorer knowledge. If I had the time away from and the funds I'd love to learn from them.
In my circle I'm the gun guru. In the big picture I'm a novice. But when I'm with dudds and hobbyists that make me feel like a SME I'm just happy to see people exercising their 2nd ammendment rights and owning an AR15 or AK that would piss Bloomberg off.
I'm a noob in this playing field - less than a year and only 5k rounds down range.
I've done a ton of reading and research, assembled my first, working on my second (closer to a build this time), and taken 2 carbine courses.
I still judge people by the following criteria;
1 - Are they following the 4 rules?
2 - Do they know how to operate their weapon?
3 - Are they shooting or just sending lead down range?
4 - What does their target look like [shot pattern].
5 - Are they being pricks when giving or receiving advice?
I could care less about what flavor they are shooting, what logo is stamped, or what is attached. Too late to criticize or advise them, their money is spent. If I can catch them before buying, then I try to guide them in the right direction.
I've seen two high end rifles give nothing but attitude at both classes [1 was ammo - short stroking every 8 rounds or so on day 2, the other a $2400 Noveske that did not care what it was fed, it just gave attitude both days], a guy with a Bushy that had no problems, and my "Frankengun" was and still is problem free.
Safety is deff a big one. My range is usually deserted (which is why I'm a member there) but when I pull up and see vehicles I cringe, as I've had some scary moments with people shooting drunk and starting fights and so on.
Hmmmm maybe I need a new range lol. Or a new geographical residence.
One more thing i judge on is legality. I live in a ban state and see people all the time with collapsing stocks and post ban mags. They aren't trying to be criminals. They're just too ignorant and lazy to study and understand the law. Had a group of them at the range once and started bump firing and attracting attention. I packed my shit and left. I didn't want to be lumped in with them if there were problems.
I keep away from those people.
Dos Cylindros
10-16-12, 05:30
Well, I certainly fall into the calss of people who have a less than desirable lower, but don't consider myself to have a sub standard carbine. My duty gun consists of a Bushy lower. That being said, I have removed every sub standard part, right down to the fire control group, and buffer tube. The fire control group is colt, the buffer tube is LMT, the buffer ad spring are BCM. My upper is a BCM middy 16" with a BCM bolt carrier group, gunfighter charging handle, Centurion Arms 9" rail topped off with a DD A1.5 rear sight and an Aimpoint T-1 in an ADM SOCOM height mount. This carbine rides with me every day at work, and had been through thousands of trouble free rounds in both quals and training. I trust my life with it, and don't really worry about the snake on the side. I have thought about upgrading my lower, but then realize that it would only be to make myself feel better. Why go through all this trouble for a Bushy lower? Easy, I live in CA and it is a legally registered assault weapon to me. To get a new lower would entail getting another letter from my admin and going through the trouble of registering it with DOJ. Mine works fine and it's good to go.
So my long answer is no, I don't judge based on the roll mark on the lower.
QuickStrike
10-16-12, 05:41
I have colts and am in the process of preparing for the zombie ninja apocalypse.
What do you make of that? :cool:
Army Chief
10-16-12, 05:41
Feel bad for this guy now that I'm informed about the penis lowers:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Spikes-Tactical-Rally-Fighter.jpg
Not sure how I managed to miss this before -- much less the original SSD post. Is that some kind of production-based Rally car, or are these things effectively scratch-builds?
AC
It's a civilian UAV [Urban Assault Vehicle] :p
Army Chief
10-16-12, 05:49
Pretty heavily-medicated this morning, but still managed to find something:
http://www.localmotors.com/
http://rallyfighter.com/
Likely no future market as a street platform, as this would surely come under government scrutiny as an assault vehicle with no sporting purpose.
AC
I'd link the business card scene from American Psycho, but Youtube is blocked where I'm at. :D
Those Spikes guys always have some new funky spider mobile to post pics of on TOS. I never know wtf they are but I'm not a car guy...
I get a bigger kick out of the guys who have the top of the line gear including their guns and tactical gear but can't shoot for shit!
Or the guys who have a top tier AR but have no friggin clue on how it works. They can however regurgitate the talking points on what they've have read on some internet forum about what makes it it so great though even though they don't really know what any of it means.
Then there's the guy who has more money than sense and thinks buying a $2k+ Noveske will magically make his rifle immune from issues. That's all cool till the moment reality kicks in and he learns that nothing is immune from malfunctions since they're all tools. I've seen that look of amazement many times and it really is priceless.
I get a bigger kick out of the guys who have the top of the line gear including their guns and tactical gear but can't shoot for shit!
Or the guys who have a top tier AR but have no friggin clue on how it works. They can however regurgitate the talking points on what they've have read on some internet forum about what makes it it so great though even though they don't really know what any of it means.
Yes, a $3k rifle and a $3k optic does not a marksman make.
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 06:33
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
Honestly, I'm happy they're shooting. I'm even happier if they get gentle encouragement to get training. If they're unsafe or refuse to listen to friendly advice, that's another matter.
When I was a water survival instructor in the Corps, I used to shake my head at people flailing around in the water. Luckily, maturity prevailed and I started saying things like "hey man, mind if I show you a better way?" Worked almost every time.
Yes, a $3k rifle and a $3k optic does not a marksman make.
Brother you just said a mouthful. Spent some time at the range over the summer next to a guy shooting a beautiful KAC SR-25 outfitted with US Optics scope and 175gr FGMM ammo. He was there with a group of folks showing off his tools only to be stunned when his buddy on the spotting scope asked how it was possible the groups I was shooting with my 11.5" SBR and T-1 optic where better than his. Now the look on his face was priceless!!
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 06:46
Brother you just said a mouthful. Spent some time at the range over the summer next to a guy shooting a beautiful KAC SR-25 outfitted with US Optics scope and 175gr FGMM ammo. He was there with a group of folks showing off his tools only to be stunned when his buddy on the spotting scope asked how it was possible the groups I was shooting with my 11.5" SBR and T-1 optic where better than his. Now the look on his face was priceless!!
Had the same thing happen at a 50 yard range. Dude next to me was shooting a .308 AR with a Nightforce. I was shooting a 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser CG63 with open sights. His groups were bloody awful.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
I try not to, but it's hard to not take notice and make assumptions. Especially when those assumptions are proved accurate more than 50% of the time. So put me in the sinners category with those that rush to judgment. For me, something to improve upon I suppose!
And Grant I brought that SBRd PSA lower to your classes. Maybe add "that lower=cheap bastard" to the list of assumptions :haha: :)
Some of this definitely applies to me.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
I used one of these when I built my rifle, but at least a lot of the parts inside it came from you. :D
I don't have any complaints against it, but I didn't know what I know now about the company when I bought it or I would have taken my money elsewhere.
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!" - Not me
2. Has never attended professional taught training class. - Me (but this will change)
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about. - Me
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo. - Not me
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse. - Not me
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
RogerinTPA
10-16-12, 08:08
I get a bigger kick out of the guys who have the top of the line gear including their guns and tactical gear but can't shoot for shit!
Or the guys who have a top tier AR but have no friggin clue on how it works. They can however regurgitate the talking points on what they've have read on some internet forum about what makes it it so great though even though they don't really know what any of it means.
Then there's the guy who has more money than sense and thinks buying a $2k+ Noveske will magically make his rifle immune from issues. That's all cool till the moment reality kicks in and he learns that nothing is immune from malfunctions since they're all tools. I've seen that look of amazement many times and it really is priceless.
That happened in a class a few months ago. Two Noveske's went T.U. due to issues with the gas tubes coming loose from the gas block. The looks on their faces were priceless. Heart broken is more accurate, but it was disappointing to witness a couple of top notch ARs having identical issues in the same class.
To the OP, I try and make a conscious effort not to judge someones weapon or gear. If they start to mouth off about how it's the latest and greatest, I disengage or move out.
I try to not judge, if it is something they wanted and it keeps them shooting all the better. I have a buddy who believes that Delton and Keltec are the coolest guns ever and why anyone would need anything else. He also has one of those shoulder bump fire stocks and is driven crazy by "fully automatic fire". :cray: I keep my thoughts to myself as it is not worth my time and effort to try to change someone on their set path. Everybody has to learn for themselves.
I don't judge folks in the "real world". If I see some joker who wasted money on an LWRCi, an Olympic Arms, or has a Spikes with the markings colored in.... I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they just don't know what they don't know and they're just playing around.
There was actually an idiot shooting next to me on the public range who had an LWRCi that was choking, of course. I let him use my rifle stock to mortar rounds and such. Didn't even bother to educate him on his misfortunate purchase.
If they're active enough to come on a site like this, I'll wear their asses out for making such foolish purchases.
I tend to pay more attention to how they train and what kind of gear is on their weapon. After all there are guys out there running DD/Colt/BCM/etc. who have NO clue what they're doing but think because they own rifle XYZ they're the $h!T. Those are the poeple I aviod lilke it's cool. Now that being said, there are also those who own whatever rifle because it was all they could afford at the time but they work their butts off at the range to get better. Those are the ones I have the most respect for!
Just as a newb question, when I say that my current rifle (BCM 14.5" mid with Battle comp and DD OMEGA, BCM lower) is "just as good" as the Colt M4 I put through so much torture over seas, am I being accurate?
Serious question. I did my research before buying, but never heard that comparison.
This discussion came up awhile ago and (BCM VS Colt) and Paul (owner of BCM) posted in the thread that he is flattered that anyone would say they are equal.
BCM products are simply fantastic so enjoy your AR with no worries.
C4
I think the whole zombie craze is ridiculous and I find it hard to believe that any of those folks would attend a carbine course with that on their rifle.
That being said, I think most people should be judged by their skills and whether they are taking the time and effort to improve themselves instead of being judged based upon whether they have a snake or a spider plastered on the side of their lower.
Totally agree, but that is in a perfect world and all I have to go one is a Zombie marked lower. :D
C4
It's a civilian UAV [Urban Assault Vehicle] :p
Hmm, me thinks that this most likely ties into a zombie apocalypse. :rolleyes:
C4
I get a bigger kick out of the guys who have the top of the line gear including their guns and tactical gear but can't shoot for shit!
Or the guys who have a top tier AR but have no friggin clue on how it works. They can however regurgitate the talking points on what they've have read on some internet forum about what makes it it so great though even though they don't really know what any of it means.
Then there's the guy who has more money than sense and thinks buying a $2k+ Noveske will magically make his rifle immune from issues. That's all cool till the moment reality kicks in and he learns that nothing is immune from malfunctions since they're all tools. I've seen that look of amazement many times and it really is priceless.
All true and see this one myself. It is harder to spot these guys as morons though as they have wrapped themselves in an invisibility cloak (at least for a while). ;)
C4
Honestly, I'm happy they're shooting. I'm even happier if they get gentle encouragement to get training. If they're unsafe or refuse to listen to friendly advice, that's another matter.
When I was a water survival instructor in the Corps, I used to shake my head at people flailing around in the water. Luckily, maturity prevailed and I started saying things like "hey man, mind if I show you a better way?" Worked almost every time.
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption. I think the rifle tends to be a "show piece" for their COD friends.
C4
Is that some kind of production-based Rally car, or are these things effectively scratch-builds?
AC
I've NO idea, but whatever it is, it's got me a bit turgid.....
Apologies for the TMI aspects; I'm no "Car Guy," but that thing's got JUST the right blend of "looks sensible" and "looks ridiculous" to intrigue me. :D
I've been called out as a "brand snob" on a local forum for recommending that folks buy quality. The fact is, if Jim Bob wants to go shoot dirt clods with his Plum Crazy lower, what do I care? If he wants to fool himself into saying the gun is for hunting, plinking, and self defense, so what? I'll offer advice if it's asked for and roll on.
It took me awhile to learn that, though. I used to get all wrapped around the axle about it.
I'll say that some of the most switched-on shooters I know in my area run old Bushmasters, have never heard of staking the castle nut, and probably don't know what MPI stands for. However, they do train and shoot. That's good for them! At the time these guys bought the Bushmasters, they were the best thing going compared to the out of spec Colt lowers and the DPMS cast junk.
I run Daniel Defense guns because:
1) They're a Georgia Company
2) They make a top notch product
3) They have an acceptable reputation
4) They were a lot cheaper when I bought my first one two years ago than they are now!
I really can't dig the Spikes. Yes, I do judge those people. I Judge the RRA guys too. Paying all that money for the hunk of junk that RRA is. RRA pushed hard in the dealer market too. The shop I used to work in stocked almost exclusively RRA guns when they first came out; dropped all Colt and Bushmaster inventory. All the lines too, "non-chrome-lined is more accurate"; "1:9 twist is better", "You only need 4150 for machine gun barrels" :rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 09:19
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption. I think the rifle tends to be a "show piece" for their COD friends.
C4
I was referring to the real world.
bullittmcqueen
10-16-12, 09:20
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption. I think the rifle tends to be a "show piece" for their COD friends.
C4
Well first off, First Impressions are everything and 99% of the time are correct. I honestly give most people the benefit of the doubt if they have a cheap commercial AR with UTG crap all over it, or if it has zombies or terse language on the dust cover. No big deal, it's not my thing, but if it's yours and you can run it, we're all good.
When I start having issues is if you get into conversation with said owner and it's the typical 'zombie apocalypse', arfcom, 'fit and finish' BS that runs rampant on other sites. In that case, I just smile and continue to be nice, but then I'm pretty sure of who I'm dealing with.
Again, regardless of what you own, you get respect from me if are safe, know correct manipulation of your weapon, and can shoot it proficiently. If you can go through a carbine course successfully and your Olympic arms zombie lower holds up without failing, then more power to you. I'm much less interested in the black rifle so much as the person holding it (although sometimes they seem to go hand in hand).
Even if a guy starts out with a shitty gun and UTG crap, at least he is involved in the shooting sports and will not be anti gun. Plus he may eventually find his way to quality equipment and a useful skill set.
Very hard not to as was mentioned, but I like the comments that the same can be said of anyone who values hardware over software.
Well first off, First Impressions are everything and 99% of the time are correct. I honestly give most people the benefit of the doubt if they have a cheap commercial AR with UTG crap all over it, or if it has zombies or terse language on the dust cover. No big deal, it's not my thing, but if it's yours and you can run it, we're all good.
When I start having issues is if you get into conversation with said owner and it's the typical 'zombie apocalypse', arfcom, 'fit and finish' BS that runs rampant on other sites. In that case, I just smile and continue to be nice, but then I'm pretty sure of who I'm dealing with.
Again, regardless of what you own, you get respect from me if are safe, know correct manipulation of your weapon, and can shoot it proficiently. If you can go through a carbine course successfully and your Olympic arms zombie lower holds up without failing, then more power to you. I'm much less interested in the black rifle so much as the person holding it (although sometimes they seem to go hand in hand).
This is all for fun and we all have pre-conceived ideas about people based on how they dress, car they drive, job they have, etc etc. I was just curious if others applied the above to firearms (apparently I am not alone).
For me, I view the AR as a tool. Not a silly roll playing toy or a piece of art. A hammer, that's what it is. So when I see zombie crap on a gun (for instance), I question this person's mindset and where they are coming from. Firearms are purpose built tool for me and to use them for anything else is, well odd I guess.
C4
Army Chief
10-16-12, 09:40
I'm not especially interested in making an active judgement for or against anyone in these situations, so much as I am in gleaning some insight into their mindset.
There are plenty of solid citizens out there who have had limited access to the right kinds of folks and gear, and who end up following market trends largely out of ignorance. When the right kind of mentorship is offered, the results can often be quite encouraging.
The problem that we more frequently seem to run into, however, is that many folks will simply take offense and become preoccupied with defending their purchase choices. I'm not sure why saving face is such a big deal in the firearms world, but we've all seen enough loyalists to enough suspect shops to know where this particular path to fanboyism leads. Is confident, enthusiastic ignorance in any way preferable to garden-variety ignorance? No, but it can certainly be more dangerous.
Some don't know what they don't know, but would like to be exposed to solid information.
Some don't know what they don't know, and would like to only if it makes them feel good about opinions that they have already formed.
Some don't know what they don't know, and really couldn't care less.
Until you know which sort of fellow your dealing with, it is hard to generalize and come away with any useful result. Granted, some of this may be a generational thing, too, since I tend to view the whole "zombie apocalypse" thing as beyond ridiculous -- and ridiculous is NOT something that I want associated with any of my firearms.
AC
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 09:43
Even if a guy starts out with a shitty gun and UTG crap, at least he is involved in the shooting sports and will not be anti gun. Plus he may eventually find his way to quality equipment and a useful skill set.
That's pretty much what I was getting at.
justin_247
10-16-12, 09:46
Feel bad for this guy now that I'm informed about the penis lowers:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Spikes-Tactical-Rally-Fighter.jpg
This is one of Spike's marketing tools they use.
Magpul has silly vehicles, too. And I have yet to see Spike's making stupid iPhone cases...
And don't even get me started about a lot of the silly stuff that comes out of AAC.
This is one of Spike's marketing tools they use.
Magpul has silly vehicles, too.
Yea but Magpuls rig (the unimog) is SWEET
To play devils advocate. Not that I have a two organ lower or anything like that.(I do rock a stripped DPMS)
One of the best "tools" I've used.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee418/Matthew_Fairbanks/Ti7web.jpg
To play devils advocate. Not that I have a two organ lower or anything like that.(I do rock a stripped DPMS)
One of the best "tools" I've used.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee418/Matthew_Fairbanks/Ti7web.jpg
Man, that hammer looks badass!
C4
justin_247
10-16-12, 10:20
Yea but Magpuls rig (the unimog) is SWEET
This is true!
On another note, yes, I think that Grant is probably right that most people with the fancy, $2,000 zombie-themed ARs simply use them to show off to their COD buddies. Most can't shoot and have no interest in learning how to shoot.
As a general rule, even though I am still a fairly inexperienced shooter, I am almost always looking for advice and welcome it, especially from experienced shooters... although I usually politely ignore lots of people giving "advice" at local ranges. Even if the person I'm talking to is speaking about something I'm already familiar with, I still listen, because there might be something I can still learn.
However, it would **** me off if somebody rendered judgment upon me because I have a Spike's lower while ignoring the fact that everything else on my rifle is sourced from DD, BCM, Colt, or LMT, especially since I don't go around gloating about people's gear.
Man, that hammer looks badass!
C4
FWIW Its no really fitting for the situation on account this would be the Noveske of the Framing hammer world.
It is BadAss though. :)
RogerinTPA
10-16-12, 10:27
Sometime it's just plan old economics. Not willing to save for quality and I've Got to Have It Right Now mentality. The 'so I can look cool' in the class or in front of relatives and friends, is another big variable.
p22shooter30
10-16-12, 10:28
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption. I think the rifle tends to be a "show piece" for their COD friends.
C4
yeah, because all high end rifles on this site that have had thier photo sessions and posted in the picture threads are not some kind of show piece for thier owners. quit judging people that are just at a range to have some fun or maybe blow off some steam as long as they follow the rules and are safe.
For me, I view the AR as a tool. Not a silly roll playing toy or a piece of art. A hammer, that's what it is. So when I see zombie crap on a gun (for instance), I question this person's mindset and where they are coming from. Firearms are purpose built tool for me and to use them for anything else is, well odd I guess.
This is how I see it. If someone is spending extra money on things like roll marks or what not, I instantly think "tool".
The one exception to this, for me, are historical guns. I'm not in the place were I can start collecting, but obviously Waffen roll marks are worth paying extra for.
yeah, because all high end rifles on this site that have had thier photo sessions and posted in the picture threads are not some kind of show piece for thier owners. quit judging people that are just at a range to have some fun or maybe blow off some steam as long as they follow the rules and are safe.
There are many safe queens on this forum (for sure). I make the assumption (based off years of experience) that most people do not shoot their firearms (let alone attend training).
Your comments about "blowing off some steam" plays back into my mindset comment. Throwing rounds down range with no real purpose is simply a waste of time for me. YMMV.
C4
Doc. Holiday
10-16-12, 10:40
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
+1 I've thought the same thing on many occasions.
Your comments about "blowing off some steam" plays back into my mindset comment. Throwing rounds down range with no real purpose is simply a waste of time for me. YMMV.
Yeah. Those kind of shooters should be playing with CAP GUNS....
I try not to judge others by looking at their AR's..That said, I also pretty much quit giving advice when asked.. Reason being, no one listened..In the past I've had several co-workers ask me about AR's. I'd tell them what I knew, (basically, get a Colt, DD, BCM,etc,) I've even printed whole copy's of "The Chart" and given them out and told them to read before buying...what happens? they buy a Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly, etc..(It's just as good!) and of course, they also swing by the accessory isle at the gun shop, and load up on UTG shit, because it's just as good and soooo much cheaper.. As has been mentioned, you can't tell people with this mindset anything..most of the time they get defensive over their purchase, and are unwilling to learn..
Now, I understand that people buy stuff like this because it's all they can afford, That's one thing..But when you buy your rifle,accessories, based solely on price,(How cheap can I get it for..and you can easily afford good kit) Then, I'm at a loss..
I don't judge people's roll marks because I do not care what they are using. Be it zombies or pink lowers with dildo roll marks, just be safe around me at the range.
I try not to judge others by looking at their AR's..That said, I also pretty much quit giving advice when asked.. Reason being, no one listened..In the past I've had several co-workers ask me about AR's. I'd tell them what I knew, (basically, get a Colt, DD, BCM,etc,) I've even printed whole copy's of "The Chart" and given them out and told them to read before buying...what happens? they buy a Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly, etc..(It's just as good!) and of course, they also swing by the accessory isle at the gun shop, and load up on UTG shit, because it's just as good and soooo much cheaper.. As has been mentioned, you can't tell people with this mindset anything..most of the time they get defensive over their purchase, and are unwilling to learn..
Now, I understand that people buy stuff like this because it's all they can afford, That's one thing..But when you buy your rifle,accessories, based solely on price,(How cheap can I get it for..and you can easily afford good kit) Then, I'm at a loss..
QFT. Same with me. I have tried to help friends with their AR purchases and have just been left disappointed. Out of 5 friends last year that bought a rifle only one bought a DD. The other four were a collection of BM and Doublestar. I've learned they will just buy the cheapest thing the can find.
I can say i was pretty much one of those who used to think an gun is a gun. My first was a Ruger P95 (or was it 85?) I bought it back in 01. Got some kind of a cheesy OWB holster, with zero retention, for it and called it good enough. Later i traded it on a Taurus PT145, bought a Taurus 100 (the Beretta .40 copy), a DE .50 and a 6in S&W 629 44mag. Looking back at it it was all because they were "cool". Ill even admit that i carried the Desert Eagle in a shoulder holster and even once tried carrying the DE and the S&W 629 in a double shoulder holster! :banghead::banghead: The only normal gun i had was the compact CZ75. All these guns have been sold off long ago after i actually started to do research and evaluate how practical they were. Today the only one i have left from that time in my life is my Polish TT33 pre ttc.
This was all before i knew or realized that i could do research online in places like this.
Today its still hard to get quality training. I work 6 days a week and taking off a few days to drive/fly to another state, rent a room and pay for a class, plus ammo and everything else is just not possible for me at this time or the near future. And all the ranges here is either indoor or outdoor static shooting, or worse, only bench.so what i try and do is drive out to the sticks to a state game land early Sunday mornings before anyone else is there and practice what ive seen or read about here. As for my guns, they are now all practical, like G19/17, M&Ps, HKs, quality AR/AK. Still have some surplus rifles. If Im in a market for a different weapon I figure out how much i can spend and the do a to of research. Sometimes it turns out that what i want isnt realistic and i move on.
What i find to be the biggest problem is knowing how good the info is from the guy who's talking to me. He might just be speaking out of his ass or he might know what he's talking about.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
You know, this sorta sterotype runs both directions. Lot of folks I see at local ranges bust out the Noveske, KAC, LaRue so people can look and validate them and their purchase with all the "nice rifle" comments. Just because you drop a shitton of coin on a rollmark, doesn't mean you can shoot any better (or worse) than the slob with a DPMS.
Fidalgoman
10-16-12, 11:55
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
C4Actually I own a Colt and don't give a rip what other people pack. Some are gear queers for sure with ten pound rifles packing night scopes and IR illuminators. Heck I even saw the Nuge with a pink and black striped AR.
All my guns are either for hunting or defense. I don't play gun games but have no opinion of those who do.
You're possibly right though in that few with AR's ever take the time, effort and money to learn how to effectively run their weapon. And that is a shame.
nineteenkilo
10-16-12, 12:17
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption.
C4
Not being in the firearms business, I used to make this assumption all the time. It didn't take long in the civilian sector to get taught a few hard lessons.
Having said that, I don't care what anyone runs if they can do it safely and well. I've found that most people are unsafe in my presence because no one ever taught them differently. They were never 'trained/taught' and don't even know what up/down range means. Most of them tend to shoot lower end carbines and usually end up being frustrated by common malfunctions and maintenance items.
More than anything, I tend to feel sorry for them and try to help whenever I am able.
Hey, at least they are out firing a weapon.
Not being in the firearms business, I used to make this assumption all the time. It didn't take long in the civilian sector to get taught a few hard lessons.
Having said that, I don't care what anyone runs if they can do it safely and well. I've found that most people are unsafe in my presence because no one ever taught them differently. They were never 'trained/taught' and don't even know what up/down range means. Most of them tend to shoot lower end carbines and usually end up being frustrated by common malfunctions and maintenance items.
More than anything, I tend to feel sorry for them and try to help whenever I am able.
Hey, at least they are out firing a weapon.
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
C4
You know, this sorta sterotype runs both directions. Lot of folks I see at local ranges bust out the Noveske, KAC, LaRue so people can look and validate them and their purchase with all the "nice rifle" comments. Just because you drop a shitton of coin on a rollmark, doesn't mean you can shoot any better (or worse) than the slob with a DPMS.
This. I have seen both sides as well. I tend not to look at roll marks but rather the actual parts. You can put a Del-Ton kit on a BCM lower just as easy as BCM parts on a Oly lower.
I see some guys that shoot some nice guns, OBR's and what not that cannot shoot it worth a crap. Likewise, I know guys that have parts that they don't even know who makes them and they can shoot lights out.
But yes, I do stereotype until that point because until you see them shoot, the kind of gun they own is the only knowledge you are working with :D
You can put a Del-Ton kit on a BCM lower just as easy as BCM parts on a Oly lower.
Actually the parts likely wouldn't fit in an OLY lower. They never have the holes in the right place.... let alone the right size...
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
Yep. When we take a class, the instructors have said they're glad to have students who WANT to be there instead of their usual class that HAS to be there.
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
C4
I've grown to learn this too Grant.
Cops also think that they are good shooters just because they are cops. Not true at all, in fact, shooting in an ACTS competition, we had a cop swing a loaded (but safetied) AR behind him during transition (I was RO'ing behind him). Yikes. He said that is how he learned it in the academyl. Sorry for the guys behind him.
Funny thing, the guy that got me into shooting is a cop. A few years later, I get out to shoot/train 3-4 times a week. He said he hasn't been out shooting (other than quals) for a couple years.
Actually the parts likely wouldn't fit in an OLY lower. They never have the holes in the right place.... let alone the right size...
True, it was more the point I was trying to make than the actual parts I listed :p
Doc Safari
10-16-12, 13:20
I'm usually pretty forgiving of the mall ninja set, as long as the person doesn't stay mall ninja forever.
I think there is a learning curve. A lot of gun buyers start out young and inexperienced and buy an assault rifle for the "cool" factor. If they didn't buy that first AR, maybe it would have been a dirt bike. I bought my first assault rifle partly because it looked like a machine gun (in my mind) and because I thought I'd be the only person at the range with one.
I think most people, if they stick with it and develop, will go from owning expensive toys to being handlers of quality HD equipment. You buy a Luger with a mile-deep blue finish and fancy wood grips for how it looks and because it's the coolest of the cool. You buy a Glock because it shoots.
Same with AR's. As a young buyer you get talked into the cheapest one you can afford or the one with the Punisher skull logo, then you spend another thou' bolting shit to it. One day you wake up and realize that KISS really works, and that it doesn't matter so much what your weapon looks like or how much you can attach to it as what you can do with it.
So, staying with the learning curve you turn to competition and eventually training, and your journey to the dark side is complete.
You look back with either disgust or humor on your mall ninja days, but you've improved , and that is the point. Maybe it took you longer because you weren't part of a sanctioned training program from day one, but you got there nonetheless.
The ones I have disdain for are the ones who have owned guns for twenty years and still buy a gun because of its looks rather than its performance.
friendlyfireisnt
10-16-12, 13:32
The lower and it's rollmark are the least important components in my opinion. I would rather have a "novelty" lower with quality parts installed, than a "normal" lower with shit parts.
It's a tool, I don't really care what it says on the side.
My primary AR is a BCM lower, and I have 2 quality uppers (BCM &Rainier). I'm building a new lower that happens to have a stupid rollmark on it. Oh well. I got it for a good price, and got it ftf :D . It's still going to have high quality parts throughout. It will serve as the primary lower for my precision AR build, and as a backup for my go-to carbine.
I tell people what is the Best in My opinion from the information I have learned Here .I have had people call me and say "what about this it is only 500 bucks"? and i will repeat Save the extra Money and Buy a Colt or a BCM or Insert other tier 1 rifles .Most have listen and ended up with Colts and thanked Me for leading them down the right path .
the others I look at as uninformed or they think their Hunting rifle will be enough For anything.
I did have a Guy say he would not own a Colt because "they Hate Civies"
I told him he needs to read a little more Colt has shifted Back to Public Sales .
And some well you just can't Fix stupid and i don't waste my time
I belong to Walther forums and specifically I am always hanging around the PPQ section, it's the only Walther to date that I own, I noticed in pictures of those with ARs and through time I felt some of those members out and then I was finally in the market for an AR and getting serious about it, at the time I knew absolutely nothing, I sent a PM to 2 individuals that gave me somewhat conflicting answers on which AR to reccomend , one said either a STAG or a Spikes Tac, the other said Colt Noveske or a DD, the one who reccomended the DD broke the whole rifle down to me and gave me so much knowledge that it was somewhat overwhelming to me, he had also stated that he had given about 5 other people advice on a great AR and they went and bought ones that were not so good. I then started to lurk on this forum and came to the decision to go with the DD V1 and I could not be happier, I am not saying that the STAG or spikes are bad because I really don't know to much about them, but what I do know is I bought one of the best ARs out there. I am glad I took his advice it was a tiny stretch on the amount of $ I wanted to spend but in the long run I am sure it will have saved me $ on upgrades. But yeah I am soooo happy that I listened, and I could tell he knew his shit :D
Oh and as far as hanging shit to it, I have a black Vickers sling and 2 QD attachments, the next thing on it will be an Aimpoint.. And maybe just maybe my Klarus -XT11 but that's it..less to me is more with that hanging stuff.. So IYO how did I do?
1859sharps
10-16-12, 14:18
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
C4
True...but there are a few out there that really are "ninja's with their firearms". I happen to know one who is..... ;)
But they do tend to be a very rare breed :(
as to your OP....Stereotypes exists for a reason...lest we forget that. However I try (key word, try) and let "the words coming out of their mouth" form my opinions of people.
Yes, choice of gear, dress, hair style, tattoos etc all tell a bit of the story of who a person is...but the words coming out of their mouth tends to seal the deal in terms of my opinion more often than any other aspect of a person.
My friend, a marine with 3 tours under his belt (back in 04 etc when shit was crazy) is without a doubt the hardest SOB I have ever met, and he shoots a DPMS.
So no, I don't. Is my Noveske twice the rifle? Definitely!! Am I twice the gunfighter? **** no.
The refrenced lower is Spikes Tactical.
I can't believe that I didn't see that before...it is so obvious.
I try not to judge people by the rollmarks on their lowers.
BUT when I go through a class and some dude is wearing his full USMC FROG top/bottom, EGA'd boots & SPC and he's never been in nor will be in.
AND has colored in rollmarks.
AND I have to stop what I'm doing on the line to show him how to adjust his EoTech brightness, I think douche right away.
ETA: he was talking airsoft with another dude during lunch. I stayed at the other end of the line after that...
wetidlerjr
10-16-12, 14:56
I don't care what you buy or what the logo is as it's your money to waste. Just as in stereo/video equipment or computers, giving advice on what lowers, etc to buy has been (in my experience) a waste of time. I can keep busy dealing with my own failings. I don't have time for yours.
Don't worry; be happy! :D
When I do a build my role mark ends up being whatever was at the gun store. Often it is a crap company, sometimes with a lame role mark.
Lowers at you LGS are there and are 80-100$, if it is black and it in spec I'll buy it.
I would love to have a number of different cool lowers, like a Noveske for my Noveske barreled VIS, or a Daniel Defense lower for my mostly DD upper. But given the hassle of having to order it, get the two FFL to communicate and then pay a transfer fee, I just couldn't be bothered.
That said, I will not buy a Spikes lower, ever, no matter what. They are very common, but most LGS have a second option too. If its all they have, I'll look else where.
I cant say that I judge too much, especially not on a lower. Sometimes you find a great deal on a lower and can then put a nice upper on it and nice LPK in it and it is a good gun. But I will admit I judge people on plenty of things and know that people do the same to me
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
What about people who own lowers with an atom symbol?
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
C4
Ain't that the truth! There should be a better focus on training, but there isn't. I was in San Diego for the IACP show with one of my resellers who had a booth. I went down to the firearms section (holy shit, HK 416s for $1399 agency price - they had a "Warehouse Sale" flyer - Yes, H&K has a warehouse sale - but I digress). In a span of 5 minutes talking to the guys at H&K I got muzzle swept at least 10 times. A few of those where the guy's finger was on the trigger. One guy pointed an MP7 towards my head and it went click when his finger depressed the trigger. I noticed and told him that I didn't have a turban, so he shouldn't aim at my head (I was there as a vendor supporting my customer, so my only weapon available against such foolishness is stupid jokes). This is an LE only show and the guys were all LEOs in leadership positions, so you would expect better safety protocols, even with a known "safe" weapon. Training in safety and muzzle awareness should be automatic and unconscious if one has had any training at all.
I have to disclaim myself as I am by no means a ninja with a firearm, and haven't had the level or quantity of training as many members here ( nor would I ever claim to be or see myself in that way, etc.), but at least I understand how to be at a minimum - safe - with one, whether "known" to be loaded or not.
p22shooter30
10-16-12, 15:33
I'm usually pretty forgiving of the mall ninja set, as long as the person doesn't stay mall ninja forever.
I think there is a learning curve. A lot of gun buyers start out young and inexperienced and buy an assault rifle for the "cool" factor. If they didn't buy that first AR, maybe it would have been a dirt bike. I bought my first assault rifle partly because it looked like a machine gun (in my mind) and because I thought I'd be the only person at the range with one.
I think most people, if they stick with it and develop, will go from owning expensive toys to being handlers of quality HD equipment. You buy a Luger with a mile-deep blue finish and fancy wood grips for how it looks and because it's the coolest of the cool. You buy a Glock because it shoots.
Same with AR's. As a young buyer you get talked into the cheapest one you can afford or the one with the Punisher skull logo, then you spend another thou' bolting shit to it. One day you wake up and realize that KISS really works, and that it doesn't matter so much what your weapon looks like or how much you can attach to it as what you can do with it.
So, staying with the learning curve you turn to competition and eventually training, and your journey to the dark side is complete.
You look back with either disgust or humor on your mall ninja days, but you've improved , and that is the point. Maybe it took you longer because you weren't part of a sanctioned training program from day one, but you got there nonetheless.
The ones I have disdain for are the ones who have owned guns for twenty years and still buy a gun because of its looks rather than its performance.
I was going to write something very similar. most the guys learn the hard way. hell i had a UTG front and rear sight on my first AR, things are junk, after a few hundred rounds i got a magpul rear sight and a YHM folding front sight. i couldnt be happier. I also put a CMMG lower parts kit in one of my rifles, left my shotgun in my trunk in a wet case when done hunting, ect ect never make those mistakes again as well. my little brother is going through his mall ninja phase right now, i told him to start out simple, but he didnt. he will learn on his own too. as long as people are safe at the range they will live long enough to learn and follow in the same foot steps as more experienced shooters. my wife has pink furniture on her ar, along with pink safety glasses and pink ear muffs and i am sure guys snicker and laugh at the range until we check targets and she shoots way better groups than most the guys there.
i guess my point is i have done stupid things with my guns and that is the best way to learn, the only thing you are out is money, and they print more of that all the time.
You assume they shoot. I do not make this assumption. I think the rifle tends to be a "show piece" for their COD friends.
C4
I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that some people do this.
Also, there is some general truth to stereotypes.
I always thought that the skulls and such were super lame. Now, the only guys who I won't judge for using the Punisher skull are Chris Kyle and his fellow SEALs. I mean, those guys walked the walk.
http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4f036c22eab8ea472a000010/chris-kyle.jpg
I have a low opinion of range commandos, and it's even worse when the RSOs are like that. I mean, why the hell wear plate carriers and the outfit when everyone is there shooting deer rifles and ARs off the bech at 50-100yds. smh.
I'm attending my first civilian carbine class later this month. I'll probably be wearing multicam pants, hat, combat shirt, and belt.
I'm not an 11b or 03, but I did deploy and was issued most of my stuff. I'm going to wear it because I can't wear it stateside for duty and I don't want to mess up any clothes that I had to pay for out of my own pocket.
But I'll be honest, I kind of fear everyone thinking I'm a mall ninja. As a non combat arms person, I'll probably have the skill of a mall ninja too.
No, I don't think because your gun says BCM on the upper and lower that you are a skilled marksman or someone who has ran their gun into the dirt. You bought a good gun, though.
If you have a zombie on your lower, I don't care, just like I don't care if guys in WWII painted voluptuous women on their fighter planes. It's okay to have moral.
However, if someone has, say, a China Doll on their lower, I think something of it. . . just sayin' :secret:
Especially with firearms, I assume everyone I meet is an incompetent idiot until proven otherwise. I do however treat people with respect weather they are in fact an idiot or not.
Having a novelty lower, very low end firearm, fake can, no case, ammo in plastic bags, etc does not help your case.
These are stereotypes but most stereotypes exist for a reason and when that reason can involve firearms safety I'm not taking any chances.
However my final determination comes down to someone's attitude and actions.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
Wow, I thought you were a little more professional than that. You basically just put down anyone who owns any Spikes gear. If some random member said something like that no one would care but you sell people gear and give advice. This is a hobby for most people and even if it isn't who says you can't have some fun. It's not like Spikes puts out crap. I'm amazed you just put down a large percentage of your customers. Oh and if you see two penises on the logo you gotta really be looking... have to wonder what's going on in people's minds that see that :rolleyes:
Dos Cylindros
10-16-12, 17:47
Speaking of people that don't shoot, but are thought to shoot a lot is LE! The majority of the LE around me shoot 62rds a year (because they have too). Most Civy's think that Cops are Ninja's with a firearm. If they only knew!
C4
Thank god this statement does not apply to my department. We have 16 scheduled range sessions a year, and there is virtually no limit on the number of rounds we shoot during those sessions. Furthermore our training is reality based, and emphasizes weapon manipulation from numerous unconventional positions.
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 17:50
I'm attending my first civilian carbine class later this month. I'll probably be wearing multicam pants, hat, combat shirt, and belt.
I'm not an 11b or 03, but I did deploy and was issued most of my stuff. I'm going to wear it because I can't wear it stateside for duty and I don't want to mess up any clothes that I had to pay for out of my own pocket.
But I'll be honest, I kind of fear everyone thinking I'm a mall ninja. As a non combat arms person, I'll probably have the skill of a mall ninja too.
You volunteered for while our nation is at undeclared war on two fronts. They can **** off or ante up and join the military like you did.
You know, this sorta sterotype runs both directions. Lot of folks I see at local ranges bust out the Noveske, KAC, LaRue so people can look and validate them and their purchase with all the "nice rifle" comments. Just because you drop a shitton of coin on a rollmark, doesn't mean you can shoot any better (or worse) than the slob with a DPMS.
I'll second that too- although cases of this seem to be in the extreme monority. I've personally run across WAY more show-offs in the el cheapo range than on the high end.
Here's the way I see it- I don't care what's on the lower- for all I know the person got it stupid cheap, or lives in an area where that's all there was available.
The only thing that really crosses my mind when looking at another person's build is 'how is the overall quality'? If they have a stupid/subpar lower, but the rest is great, who cares?
Or at least I try to get a reason for why they used what they did before writing it off.
I don't judge people's roll marks because I do not care what they are using. Be it zombies or pink lowers with dildo roll marks, just be safe around me at the range.
Hate to say it, but if I had endless cash, I would totally buy a lower like that just for laughs. Imagine the look on peoples' faces when they figure out what the rollmark is..... :laugh:
Off topic-
Did something change with Spikes' lowers?
I was under the impression that their lowers were in the decent-quality budget range along with others such as PSA, Aero Precision, and such.
A couple of posts at the beginning here seemed to suggest that they are now a no-go....
I judge others the same way that you do... but its mainly on the component and accessory choice. I could care less what roll-mark is on the lower. If its in spec, who cares, its a container for parts. If the gun is well-setup w/ a quality LPK, BCG, barrel, etc its likely going to run OK.
A good example of what NOT to do would be a lightweight carbine with a grip-pod, $50 high magnification scope mounted on the carry handle, weapon light, and some chi-com rail. It's like the gun (and owner) are confused and suffering from some identity crisis. And after blowing all their money on over accessorizing, of course they can only afford steel-case ammo. And they are probably overweight and wearing some cheesy MMA t-shirt too.
As much as I want to be a jerk to someone like this though, I resist. Because hopefully they'll keep shooting and come around to make better training and equipment choices one day. And maybe they have the stuff that they do because some idiot gunshop employee told them to buy it.
p22shooter30
10-16-12, 18:03
no, nothing changed with spikes lowers, people just hate spikes and thier business practices and logos.
Littlelebowski
10-16-12, 18:11
I'm attending my first civilian carbine class later this month. I'll probably be wearing multicam pants, hat, combat shirt, and belt.
I'm not an 11b or 03, but I did deploy and was issued most of my stuff. I'm going to wear it because I can't wear it stateside for duty and I don't want to mess up any clothes that I had to pay for out of my own pocket.
But I'll be honest, I kind of fear everyone thinking I'm a mall ninja. As a non combat arms person, I'll probably have the skill of a mall ninja too.
They can ****ing skip rocks since you earned the uniform by volunteering for service while our country is at war.
I never have seen a Spikes AR or lower fail. I've looked at their carbines and everything looked fine as far as materials and finish.
I think the whole coloring and logs thing can be silly but we should not discourage other shooters at first blush.
You volunteered for while our nation is at undeclared war on two fronts. They can **** off or ante up and join the military like you did.
Hunting_Zombies
10-16-12, 18:38
Well, I am fairly new to shooting in general. I started off as one of those guys buying things for the wrong reasons. I was a single father so money was hard to come by. I ended up startngout with a Spikes lower with a RRA LPK. And it was a RRA/YHM upper. I thought I was bad ass. But after finding this site, I have a complete 180 way of thinking. I have learned so much from a lot of people here I have edcuated myself and I still have a lot to learn in regards to the AR platform. Now my rifle is completely different except it still sports the Spikes lower. But now it's paired with a VLTOR upper, BCM bcg, Timney trigger and just running TROY irons. Now the YHM upper ran just fine (for the shooting I do) for the 1000 rounds every few months. Just wanted to have something I can count on if SHTF. In the beginning, I never acted like I knew everything, those idiots will always be there. I hate them too. But I guess I'm just trying to say not all folks with these lowers are all idiots. Some of us just got started off on the wrong foot. Ok, my sobb story is over!
Shoot Safe
no, nothing changed with spikes lowers, people just hate spikes and thier business practices and logos.
This.
Even on this site people don't claim there is anything wrong with Spikes gear. Far from it.
People find other reasons to dislike them, such as the way the rollmark looks, the fact that they make fake parts (suppressors/grenade launchers/whatever else) for customers interested in such things, and the public behavior of the company on the boards, particular TOS. On that last one I can't help but agree that that is a good reason to avoid buying from a company.
Hunting_Zombies
10-16-12, 18:46
sorry for the double post
ROUTEMICHIGAN
10-16-12, 19:06
It goes both ways-- I've seen at various training classes dudes who show up in the latest Arc'teryx garb shouldering the latest/greatest rifle with all the bells and whistles who can't shoot or manipulate their weapon worth a sh**. Never judge based on appearance. That is the epitome of elite snobbery. Who cares what the rollmark is or what they are wearing -- as long as they are enjoying themselves, getting trained and staying safe?
Wow, I thought you were a little more professional than that. You basically just put down anyone who owns any Spikes gear. If some random member said something like that no one would care but you sell people gear and give advice. This is a hobby for most people and even if it isn't who says you can't have some fun. It's not like Spikes puts out crap. I'm amazed you just put down a large percentage of your customers. Oh and if you see two penises on the logo you gotta really be looking... have to wonder what's going on in people's minds that see that :rolleyes:
We all have prejudices and or pre-conceived ideas about people. I am no different. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't then I am not talking about you. ;)
No, you don't have to "look" to see the two penises killing a bug. It is there and everyone knows it (less you).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/denderwuz/spikeslogo.gif
C4
eternal24k
10-16-12, 19:23
I used to, and I do get a lot of crap for the spider on my favorite rifle. But IMHO, a lower is just a lower, I couldn't give two ****s if it has a spider or a knight, the barrel, bcg, trigger, and other components are much more important than anything else. Yes, there is some dbaggery associated with some of these companies, and I would much rather be taken for a snob than a tool
Suwannee Tim
10-16-12, 19:51
I met a guy who was shooting a S&W piston gun, decent gun but with every silly accessory you can think of hanging off it. Under my able tutelage he has grown as a shooter and become a pretty decent rifleman. Other than that he is one of the more interesting people I have ever met. He is a very intelligent and highly educated engineer and musician, mountaineer, author, inventor, traveler, sailor, adventurer, et cetera, et cetera. Point is there are degrees of ****tardism and the degree may not be evident from the ****tard's choice of ARs. And, they may be a real ****tard on your turf but you may be the ****tard on their turf. If I were trekking across the Gobi Desert for example, or climbing Mt. Ranier I would be pleased to have this friend at my side. On the other hand, I am acquainted with folks who have some seriously cool toys including aircraft and I don't think that highly of them.
Nope, what other folks shoot is their choice. In a class, I make sure my shit is straight and keep my ears open so I can learn - from the instructor, other students and their questions.
This past summer, in a carbine class one guy worked the crowd and checked out everyone's gear. No comment on my Noveske. When he saw my HK45c he asked if I was an 'engineer' - said 'no, just a retired infantryman.' :confused:
Ouroborous
10-16-12, 20:44
Well as far as individuals are concerned, it really depends on their overall demeanor-if they're exemplifying the stereotype with their gear and attitude, they deserve all the judgement they have coming.
How's about gun store owners?
One in particular sells nothing but spikes (with said roll marks in a variety of "zombified" colors) and dpms stripped lowers. The complete rifles he sells tend to be Spikes, M&P-15, and Bushmaster with all manner of cheap Chinese accessories thrown on em.
When I asked the owner "why no Colts?" the answer was "Bushmasters are better".
Needless to say I instantly formed a negative opinion of him and how he conducts his business.
The roll marks on their lower or the parts on their gun??? I occasionally stick my head into the custom build forum, AR pic thread, etc and when I see a pirate, a zombie, bio hazard symbol or two male organs trying to crush a bug I immediately think the following things about the owner:
1. Owns an AR because "it is cool!"
2. Has never attended professional taught training class.
3. Probably has no idea what they are talking about.
4. Thinks that Wolf and Tula makes "good" ammo.
5. Thinks that it is possible that there will actually be a zombie apocalypse.
These are just some of the thoughts that run through my head. I know that stereo types are wrong and have friends that own one of these lowers and they DO attend training and are intelligent people that do not fantasize about shooting the undead.
Am I alone on this??? Just curious if anyone else judges people by their lower choice.
*Please don't send me hate mail because I insulted your lower of choice. :D
C4
No because Im not a douche, and I dont care.....
Do I prefer quality parts from reputable companys? Of course. Do I give a shit what anyone else has/wants/likes? Nope.
I don't care what other people spend their hard earned money on.
This past weekend I went shooting with a guy who had his new tacticool RGuns 20" AR on a bipod and all that stuff. I shot his rifle, it went bang when it was supposed to, and had a good 100yd zero on it.....for a few minutes....
150Rnds later his brand new RGuns bolt threw a gas ring and the bolt jammed half way in the buffer tube and upper. Took us 30 min to get it apart. I felt so bad for him.
Luckily I was there to help him because he had no clue how to field strip the weapon.
I pointed him in the direction of a new lmt bcg. Told him to throw that rguns bcg threw the shops window where he bought the rifle.
Point is, that whole situation taught me two lessons:
1-dont be a dick about brands, just have fun, and be glad you have done enough research to have pieced together a high quality rifle you can be proud of.
2-when someone has a problem with the rifle they are proud of, help them out, but dont be a snob about the brand they have chosen. Nobody wants to feel horrible after spending $500-$1200 on a hobby they enjoy.
No because Im not a douche, and I dont care.....
Do I prefer quality parts from reputable companys? Of course. Do I give a shit what anyone else has/wants/likes? Nope.
This +1
Not for nothing, if you actually look at a spikes spider... you really need be looking for make reproductive parts to see that. Maybe youre looking in the wrong place.
Never would have noticed it without it being pointed it out.
Still cant see how the gun would know what symbol is on it and fire worse because of it.
I do judge... somewhat, but I try to look at the weapon as a whole. I have an old Bushmaster lower that I bought back in the bad old ban days. I've since replaced everything except the actual receivers with quality parts from BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt, etc. It's a great little carbine, it just has that stupid snake on the side.
I know many shooters that have done the same thing; turned junk into gold over time.
The problem happens when it's "one of those lowers" with a questionable barrel, BCG, and a bunch of other low end parts put together with questionable skill. Especially when aesthetics take a priority over function.
I don't care what people shoot just as long as it works. (Not that I'm some sort of operator.) That said, I have a LW 14.5" BCM and an arguably over priced Hk MR556 that seriously is like a Cadillac in every way. (Heavy & luxurious, lol.)
Both would get the job done if I had a job to get done. In this case even being euphemistically a "Heart breaker & soul taker" (0331 Marine) I am the weakest link to the systems I've chosen to own.
And such is the case of probably 80% of the owners out there. If they spend the money on training and put good instructed rounds down range then they will work out their systems and adjust from there. If someone continually chooses polished crap even after they've been trained that's when I start to think they're a little loose in the intelligence department. That's why the first question I like to ask someone giving their opinion, "who trained you?"
As for Zzombies and similar, if that's what it takes to get people interested in self protection and preparedness then I welcome it. Will I ever buy neon green BS? Not on your life.
huntswithweim
10-16-12, 23:35
I think it’s funny that some of same members who shit the panties if a guy talks about a receiver’s finish or fit are now talking about roll marks on a lower. ****ing grow up. You are the same group that shit talked the punisher logo until Chris Kyle is using it. The roll mark is absolute worthless in terms of function so who gives a shit. Apparently we have covered everything that is useful about the in the AR/M4 world so now we are descending into the TOS.
Now let’s argue whose imaginary friend is the most badass.
Holy shit... You win for the best post here Huntswithweim.
GeorgiaBoy
10-17-12, 00:29
I think it’s funny that some of same members who shit the panties if a guy talks about a receiver’s finish or fit are now talking about roll marks on a lower. ****ing grow up. You are the same group that shit talked the punisher logo until Chris Kyle is using it. The roll mark is absolute worthless in terms of function so who gives a shit. Apparently we have covered everything that is useful about the in the AR/M4 world so now we are descending into the TOS.
Now let’s argue whose imaginary friend is the most badass.
Nail? Hammer? Meet? Together?
Here's what I'm going to say about the subject. I could give a shit less what kind of gun Chris Kyle uses. And I could really kinda care less about a roll mark. What really matters is is the weapon functional. For those of you still think that all parts arein created equal I highly recommend you get out there and start taking a look. I guarantee you there are some M4C members here who have been to my classes now and they will tell you parts ain't parts.
We saw a brand new Rock River Arms carbine that was a piece of crap. Castle nut was not staked and it was improperly put together. someone damaged the tube during the process also. It was purchased brand new from a dealer. The BCG screws were not torqued and staked properly either. 800.00 plus tax.
JBecker 72
10-17-12, 01:04
I look at what the rifle is, not the rollmark on the lower. The way I see it is of the power is in spec and made by a quality source it doesn't matter what is on it.
To be honest I do like some of the lowers with unconventional roll marks. That umbrella corp lower from VA beach, VA is awesome, but I am from VA. I have a few Stag lowers with Colt parts and BCM uppers that run great.
Oh, and I want one of these, just because its subtle and I think hilarious.
http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/51246/2410576940041331668S600x600Q85.jpg
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
justlikeanyoneelse
10-17-12, 01:32
Could not care less even if it had SpongeBob SquarePants on it, if it works and he/she likes it, let it be. However when I see an AR-15 with a bipod, foregrip, high powered scope, magwell grip thingy, and a c mag on a 25 yard range...hell yes I judge.
Sadly this is not a made up example.
TacticalSledgehammer
10-17-12, 01:45
All true. My post was somewhat tongue in cheek and I know it is wrong to ASSume, but sometimes I just cannot help myself. I think I need counseling. :jester:
C4
Nah just start carrying Spike's.... :secret:
I still can't see the male organs in the spider. I agree though... All the rest of their logos are pretty cheesy. I work with a guy that bought a zombie lower. He's very doomsday preppy I guess you could say...
As I said earlier, I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt but there are some indicators that I take as a clue that I don't want to wait around long enough to find out how close folks match up to my prejudices. Something like this, for example
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Unbelievable/WTFAR.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
10-17-12, 05:59
As I said earlier, I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt but there are some indicators that I take as a clue that I don't want to wait around long enough to find out how close folks match up to my prejudices. Something like this, for example
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Unbelievable/WTFAR.jpg
What the hell is that?
Littlelebowski
10-17-12, 07:57
It's hypocritical to see a forum that has countless threads going on about shades of FDE/UDE/whatever and countless threads about hoodies/"shells"/****ing jackets bash some guy for something on his lower. This thread is not in keeping with the stated purpose of this forum.
I will say that the OP does give free classes to new shooters in his locale but honestly, we should be better than where this thread has gone.
urbanpioneer
10-17-12, 08:15
Can this thread not be deleted? I feel like the ghost of Rob_S is haunting it. :alcoholic::bad::help::nono::haha:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/Mako_Recoil_Reducing_AR-15_Stock_Cheek_Riser_37.jpg
ClearedHot
10-17-12, 08:35
Pointless thread is pointless.
misanthropist
10-17-12, 09:00
A well set-up gun with a roll-mark that doesn't impress me would generate a much more favourable response than a Colt with a grip-pod, a bushnell trophy 3-9 and a CAA stock.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Unbelievable/WTFAR.jpg
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/Mako_Recoil_Reducing_AR-15_Stock_Cheek_Riser_37.jpg
I hate it when I try to generate a mental image of whatever impossibly stupid thing I can think of, and then within 24 hours, I start seeing pictures of it on the internet.
**** you, human race.
Anyway I think it's really interesting that people are drawing parallels between roll marks on ARs, which for whatever reason aren't allowed to be skulls or pirates or spiders, and logos on hammers, which, if they're skulls, are badass. Also the fetishizing of desaturated shades of grey, green and brown.
I mean obviously a rifle with a horse on it is likely to be built better than a rifle with a snake on it...but a home build of DD parts in a zombie or spider lower could be just a good.
I'm fine with people saying "that zombie shit is gay", of course...provided they aren't the same people who go all squirrelly when their new accessory in Flat Dark Earth looks a little too Coyote Brown, and doesn't match their other FDE stuff now.
There's a lot of ways to be a tac homo.
I will say that the OP does give free classes to new shooters in his locale.
An enormously generous thing to do, all who have attended definitely appreciate it.
I think some of you missed the idea behind this thread. It was a QUESTION and a simple Yes or No would do. I have to laugh at the people that became personally insulted by the question. This generally means it hit close to home.
If you didn't know it, YOU judge people every day for something as simple as the car they drive or the shoes on their feet. We all do it. While I don't judge people based off of clothing, cars or where they live, I do question the mindset of folks that buy zombie AR's, Ammo and targets.
From my experience, a guy that is buying a cheap lower with some goofy roll mark is NOT filling it with quality parts. They generally follow the same theme throughout the gun. This is of course fine (as it is there rifle), but at the end of the day this is the same person you will most likely make "as good as" comments when discussing a Colt or BCM AR.
C4
Army Chief
10-17-12, 09:39
While I don't judge people based off of clothing, cars or where they live, I do question the mindset of folks that buy zombie AR's, Ammo and targets.
Game, set, match.
AC
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