I have recently become interested in Carbine rifles and need to aquire my Gear. I live in the Houston area and will be attending training classes with Thunder Ranch and other facilities in the future. Some help would be greatly appreciated:
1.) How does one choose from Black, Desert Sand, OD Green, etc?
2.) I need recomendations on how and where to carry your Mags. And if there is any vests are setups that are more popular than others.
3.) I will be using the 6004 Holster since it seems to be highly like on the forum.
I appreciate the Help.
Erick Gelhaus
09-03-06, 09:55
Fj-
Taking #1 & #3 first. A lot of it depends on what your mission / function is. For some in LE, Target Indicator Black may be there only option their employer allows. For the big military, certain colors are mandatory as they keep the uniform nazis away. Decent, normal Humans have a bit more leeway in selecting their gear but ...
Before you attend (competent) training, avoid going hog wild on gear. Get a look at what works in general & what will work for you - body type & limitations, climate, etc - before you buy a bunch of stuff.
The 6004 is a real decent holster -if that's what you really need. Otherwise there a some darn good belt holsters that work just as well and may be far more practical for folks outside of Mil & LE.
Were I to recommend one magazine carriage system for a new shooter to attend their first training it'd be Eagle's Chest Pouch (#CP223, MSRP $68.51). Rather low cost, simple design that holds four AR mags & two pistol mags / handheld lights.
One of these was my carbine mag carrier for LE patrol for a couple years. The only reason it isn't anymore is because I now use a plate carrier.
Had a student (thoracic surgeon) two weeks ago who wore that for his carbine mags throughout a five day class. His belt only carried a holster, pistol mags and a dump pouch. The whole set-up worked very well for him and is realistic for his situation.
Just my thoughts.
Erick
Eric's pretty much spot on.
Don't go and buy a lot of gear for your first class. Since your asking, that means you don't really know what you want.
Do you Carry CCW? if you do, then you will want to carry as you always do.
6004 Holsters are nice, but have you ever used one for an extended period of time??
If I were you, I would get a simple belt rig that holds 2-3 mags of Carbine and 2-3 of Pistol. A nice Dump pouch. And a Camelback.
Then during class check out the other students gear and decide what best will suit your needs.
As to color.... there's no rule. go with fluorescent Green if it suits you...;)
No one Uses black un less they have to (LEO) OD and Tan are very popular. but base it on where you live and what your surroundings are.
Don't worry about your gear as much as making sure you have a dependable working carbine that is zeroed and clean and that you know how to lube it and make it work. That you have good reliable mags and ammo and that you have tried out everything prior to class. Makes you learning experience much better for you.... and your classmates...:D
Here are some thoughts I posted on another thread concerning training and gear:
What gear did you take to class, any carbine class, and how did it work out for you? What would you take next time?
I have taken NUMEROUS tactical carbine and tactical pistol courses from many different traniners over the last 6 years. I have also taken a few Patrol Rifle and SWAT carbine courses (over the last 8 years). What follows are some things that I have learned in those course.
-Use quality USA made ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo realted malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo, and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us.
-MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. No doubt that optics are benificial and much faster than irons. But before you go an buy an ACOG, Aimpoint, EO Tech, or any other optic, master your iron sights FIRST. Once you have mastered the iron sights then master the optic of your choice. If you are already good to go on irons then by all means, use an optic of your liking.
-Use quality USGI magazines with the GREEN or new Magpul followers. Another thing that I do to my magazines is use the Wolff Gunsprings 10%+ mag springs in my mags. If you have the time take the mags to the range and make sure they work good. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.
-Learn to properly clean and maintain your gun properly. I always recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly maintain and clean your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class properly field strip, clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 per day, everyday. The guys that don't properly clean and lube their carbines will be easy to spot......Their guns usually go "TITS UP" the second day of class prior to lunch. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your gun.....and make sure to use the chamber brush.
-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers. Stick with the "Tier 1 manufacturers" as a general rule.
-I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle .223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.
-If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.
-If *you* are *new to AR's* get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine, attend the Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you *need* them.
-Make sure you have a good sling, my personal preference now is the outstanding Vickers sling by Blue Force gear, but use what works best for you (single point, two point, or three point) because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)
-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR (and use the IRON SIGHTS if you don't know how to already), good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a quality sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!
I'm thinking maybe I should go with a thigh rig for the spare mags at least.
In reference to gear. I often hear guys say "Fight like you train" or "Train like you will fight". Most of the time these same guys don't take their own advise. For example, a civilian that shows up to class with more nylon gear than most members of the military wear. In a real world situation when is a civilian going to have the time to don all that gear and deploy his rifle?
Outside of a Rodney King looting spree or a Hurricane Katrina situation, generally speaking if a civilian is going to deploy his carbine it will most likely be within the confines of his own home (home invasion or a burglary while the homeowner is asleep). In defense of your home, when the suspect is INSIDE your house, you are not going to have time to don any gear. You are going to grab your rifle and address the situation.
Keeping this in mind, why not train in a class in the same manner that you would deploy your carbine in real life.
In every training class and every match I have shot in I have learned at least one new lesson. So by wearing something to class that you would never wear in the real world, you are depriving yourself of lessons that you could have learned.
Here is some food for thought:
I am a big fan of train with what you will carry. If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear what you will use in real life!!!
This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place. Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.
There is a reason why I recommend this. A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.
The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.
This is the type of lesson that you could learn in a training class or a match if you use the same gear in the class that you will use in real life. Had this shooter taken a training class using a chest rig / belt mounted mag pouch / thigh mounted mag pouch / etc, he would have never learned this lesson.
Each piece of gear (weather it's a chest rig or a cargo pocket) has it's own specific learning curve. It's better to learn the pros and cons and the do's and don'ts in class than in a real world situaton.
The same thing goes for cops, military, etc. Use the gear that you will use at work.
Just my .02........Your experiences and milage may vary.
______________________________________________________________
Well, I can always wear the vest and use it to feed my pocket.
If in a defense situation you will store your mags in your pockets I feel that this is the best course of action.
______________________________________________________________
**This is directed at no one, just something I have noticed over several years of training**:
______________________________________________________________
I always hear guys say "Train like you will fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. For most, it is nothing more than "lip service".
As my father always told me "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words"
The reason I say this is many shooter's mindsets are in the wrong place. They show up to class with gear they would NEVER use in the real world. And most will admit that the gear they show up with, they will never use.
Don't get me wrong, gear is cool, I love gear......there is a time and a place for gear. There is also a time and a place to learn lessons in training so you don't have to learn them when bullets are flying both ways.
Many shooter are more worried about looking cool or justifying a purchase (guns, gear, etc) than learning to run their gun and gear in the same manner that they will use it in a real world defense situation.
This is about pistol holsters, but the point still applies to rifles and rifle related gear......Something to consider:
If your CCW rig is a kydex in the waist band (IBW) holster that you wear on your strong side (for arguments sake, let's say you are right handed). So your pistol is going to be on your right side in a IBW holster and your mags are going to be on your left side.
You take a 2 tactical pistol class where you will fire 1,500 to 2,000 rounds in two days and draw your pistol from the holster and access spare magazines from your mag pouch well in the excess of 100+ times.
Knowing that you are going to carry daily in a strong side (right side) IBW holster, does it make any sence to show up to class wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster? For 2 days and thousands of rounds and countless draws from the holster, you are going to draw your pistol from the area of your left armpit and you will access your mags from the area of your right armpit (remember for the class you are wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster).
There is an entirely different draw stroke, set of body mechanics, holster issues, clothing issues, reholstering, accessing magazines, etc. that go with a shoulder holster than with a strong side belt mounted IBW holster.
Now you have spent 2 days training, your "muscle memory" has gotten to the point that you (almost without thinking) go directly to your left armpit to draw your gun (because that is where the gun sits on your body when in a shoulder holster).
The class is finished and you put the Miami Vice sytle sholder holster in the closet and start carrying with your IBW belt mounted holster WITHOUT EVERY TRAINING WITH IT.
The following week you find yourself at the wrong end of a deadly force encounter with a man how is intent on killing you. You need your pistol and you need it now, your body and brain go into an auto pilot like mode, you grab for your pistol under your left arm, but it's not there (but that's where it was loacated for hundreds of draw stokes in training when you were wearing your Miami Vice style shoulder holster.....but today you are wearing a strong side belt holster).....
Then you realize "Oh shit, my pistol is located on my belt on my right side," you grab for the gun, start to draw the pistol gets caught up on your shirt (you are wearing a loose shirt because you liked the color, and because you never trained with your IBW holster you never realized that wearing loose fitting shirts could cause a problem when drawing from an IBW holster).
Now you have lost valuable seconds, you are even more upset and more stressed than you would have been if you could have located and easily drawn your pistol immedately and "gotten into the fight". Could a situation like this cost you your life? Something to think about.
And we all think "It can't happen to me". I was watching one of the new reality SWAT shows on TV a couple weeks ago, Texas SWAT, Dallas SWAT, or one of them. One of the SWAT cops was wearing a 6004 holster. He attempted to draw his pistol from the belt TWICE before realizing that he wasn't wearing his belt holster and his pistol was located further down on his thigh. I have admittedly made simular mistakes......It's something called a "training issue" and can happen to any of us.
I use the analogy with the pistol and different style holsters because guys can relate to them much better for some unknown reason. Take the same lessons learned with different pistol holsters and apply those lessons to a carbine and carbine related gear.
If you are going to access your AR15 magazine from your rear left side pants pocket there is a certain learning curve involved in that (an example of this can be seen in my first post). So if you are training for self defense, doesn't it make sense to truely "Train like you will fight".
When wearing a chest rig in a class you are teaching yourself to access extra ammo from your chest. Is this where you will carry ammo in a real world defensive situation? If not, maybe it's time to reevaluate your mindset and the way you do things.
If you are wearing a chest rig, it makes life easier for you in the class, but what are you teaching yourself? Something I learned early on in the USMC is "Comfort will get you killed". Don't do something just because it's easy or becasue it's comfortable. Take the phrase "Train like you will fight" to heart.
Every evolution I have every been on where we deviate from what we have done in training, and everything goes to shit, quickly. Training the way you will fight may save your life someday.
A gunfight is the wrong place to try to "unteach" yourself what you have already learned and attempt to replace it with a new set of skills.
Just food for thought.
Disclaimer:
The info provided in the post above is based on *my* first hand knowledge and experience. Your milage and experience may vary.
Take care and stay safe
Semper Fi,
Jeff
______________________________________________________________
Just some food for though. Your opinion and milage may vary
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Ditto my brother Erick above. I have used a simple Eagle CP 223 for the 15 plus years both in classes, training, and operationally. I can't think of a single class where I wasn't in the top 3 shooters, so this set up works just fine. They hang great over the head reast in the passenger side of both a police unit and my personal vehicle, they are easy to don, 4 spare mags on the rig is more than enough for a general purpose load out, and I keep the same rig next to my home carbine as well. A belt rig with a good holster (I avoid the full drop holsters unless I HAVE to use one due to armor or load), high quality accessable mag pouches for your pistol and maybe a single rifle mag pouch and a high quality dump pouch (Eagle or CSM) and a light holder are all you really need.
Simple, proven, economic, and functional gear will make your training more positive. I get a kick out of the folks who show up with fully loaded plate carriers and tons of gear who will never use this stuff in a lifetime, and then spend a whole class "learning their gear" rather than learning to function with a firearm, which is why you are there. Remember, smooth is fast. Make things function smoothly and in conjunction with one another.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.