View Full Version : LAW Tactical Folding Stock adapter.
Magic_Salad0892
10-17-12, 06:28
Today a friend of mine showed me his AR at the range (in the middle of nowhere, shootable land) equipped with one of these, along with some LAW Tactical Mk. 262 clone.
Some observations:
The Mk. 262 clone performed well. 500m shots were easy with 3X magnifiers, and the smallest group of the day (from me) was about 1.3'' (10 rounds) at 100m. KAC NT4 suppressor. He told me they use Nosler 77 gr. bullets. According to their site, he is correct. I don't know if they were cannelured (hopefully I spelled that right) or HPBT or not, but they were accurate, 5.56mm pressure (locked my gun's bolt back when unsuppressed.), and didn't cause malfs.
The LAW Tactical folding stock adds a little bit of length to the stock. Like maybe 3/4'' an inch or so, but I suck at measuring. The folding stock + VLTOR A5 collapsed completely (stock deployed) with B5 SOPMOD (his SOPMOD. Mine is LMT.) seems to be about the same LOP as a Colt M4 stock on the second notch. It's a good length, and I like it. I usually keep my A5 on the second notch anyways, so it was great for me, and didn't need to be extended. Sadly, you can't make it shorter than that either, so it's either that or collapse it. I've not held it with standard carbine RE.
It did not cause a single malf, and walking around with it folded was fine. It also fits very well in a backpack.
I don't know if I'd recommend it, but I might try one out for myself. I wonder a little bit if it adds to the length that the bolt has to travel rearward, giving you an even slower carrier velocity...
I dig it though. But I'll still wait to see how it performs over the long run. However he told me that he payed like $230 for his.
It is compatable with any endplate that fits on a standard carbine RE. As he had a KAC endplate on his, and it was fine. Hopefully there wouldn't be an issue with it collapsing during firing or anything. (because you can't stake it, even though you'd still stake the castle nut.)
I'll have to revise this later, as I'm really tired while I write this.
I'll keep you guys updated to see if it causes any problems on his gun.
http://www.lawtactical.com/
Their site seems a little tacticool to me, but not too bad.
The one thing I HATE about it however. It totally leaves he ass end of the bolt carrier exposed, and crap could get inside the gun. That's retarded. But the nature of the beast I guess. I did get oil all over myself because of that.
The carrier itself is not exposed when folded. There is an extension that fits into the rear of the carrier and that is what is open to the elements. It is solid so it has a better chance at keeping debris out in theory, but I think it is mainly to make up for the length of the folder so the carrier travels the same distance as a standard setup. I'm not sure if the extra weight of the carrier extension has any effect on function like a heavier buffer or carrier would, but I assume so.
Pics of the extension:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/hvepf.xgape/v/vspfiles/photos/2012001-2T.jpg?1338553123
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/hvepf.xgape/v/vspfiles/photos/2012001-22T.jpg?1338553123
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/STCK3084-A-1200-Stick.jpg
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/STCK3085-A-1200-Stick.jpg
justin_247
10-17-12, 15:19
What is the purpose of this, exactly?
If you're trying to fit it into a backpack, it makes much more sense to simply tear the weapon down to just the upper and lower receiver assemblies.
If you're wanting a weapon with a folding stock, I say buy one that's actually designed for one, like an AK, SCAR, or ACR.
What is the purpose of this, exactly?
If you're trying to fit it into a backpack, it makes much more sense to simply tear the weapon down to just the upper and lower receiver assemblies.
If you're wanting a weapon with a folding stock, I say buy one that's actually designed for one, like an AK, SCAR, or ACR.
well if this worked and was reliable I think it has a market. being able to fit into a back pack or what ever broken down is not easy to put into action if required. A folding stock is much easier to put into place than assembling a lower and upper.
JP
Anyone knows what gen 2 is about?
filthy phil
10-17-12, 18:06
Great news. A piston ar as short as an ak folder is in my future. I like the idea of carrying it to the range on the back seat of my bike
Magic_Salad0892
10-17-12, 18:12
The carrier itself is not exposed when folded. There is an extension that fits into the rear of the carrier and that is what is open to the elements. It is solid so it has a better chance at keeping debris out in theory, but I think it is mainly to make up for the length of the folder so the carrier travels the same distance as a standard setup. I'm not sure if the extra weight of the carrier extension has any effect on function like a heavier buffer or carrier would, but I assume so.
Pics of the extension:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/hvepf.xgape/v/vspfiles/photos/2012001-2T.jpg?1338553123
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/hvepf.xgape/v/vspfiles/photos/2012001-22T.jpg?1338553123
I'll have to get more time with it to comment on that. I TOTALLY remember seeing the ass end of the carrier openly exposed. I acutally wanted to see if I could cycle the weapon that way, but we never tried.
I also wanted to add that using a sling with this thing folded sucks ass.
This could grow on me. I like the idea of a folder with DI parts. If it holds up, I might get one.
ETA: what I don't like is the ass end of my carrier exposed. Hmmm...
I think I remember reading that the weapon would fire one round with it folded, but that it bent a tab and the assembly had to be returned to the manufacturer to repair?
SpankMonkey
10-17-12, 18:43
I think someone is going to have a bad day when they forget to close it and fire the weapon. Interesting idea none the less.
Magic_Salad0892
10-17-12, 18:44
I think I remember reading that the weapon would fire one round with it folded, but that it bent a tab and the assembly had to be returned to the manufacturer to repair?
I've heard of that too. And we considered doing it, but then decided that it was too likely that something would go wrong, and that it was unnecessary abuse, and didn't do it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=98690
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104703
I think I remember reading that the weapon would fire one round with it folded, but that it bent a tab and the assembly had to be returned to the manufacturer to repair?
If you fire it with the stock folded back, it bends a tab. The tab should be able to be replaced.
justin_247
10-18-12, 09:48
This entire idea is dumb, and is just another example of people trying to take the easy way out and introducing more problems in the process.
if the goal was to allow a folding stock, the RIGHT thing to do would have been to redesign the upper receiver assembly so that the receiver extension was unnecessary. But nope, they can't do that.
At least RRA made an attempt at this.
Moonlight Again
10-18-12, 10:14
snip
if the goal was to allow a folding stock, the RIGHT thing to do would have been to redesign the upper receiver assembly so that the receiver extension was unnecessary. But nope, they can't do that.
snip
Justin---you do have a point, but there is, I think, a countervailing point to consider. For better or worse, it looks like "we" are "stuck" with the M4 for the foreseeable future. (I share the consensus opinion here that that's not really a bad thing, not at all.)
Being "stuck" with the M4 means that novel upper receiver assemblies aren't going to happen. We're going to be operating with very similar upper and lower receivers for a while. If there's going to be progress (and there is), it's going to be around the edges. Ambi-selectors and mag releases, mid-length gas (maybe), the Vltor A5 receiver extension----these are all upgrades (arguably) to the M4, but it's still an M4.
The folding stock may flop. It might not strike the right chord with the buying public, and it might turn out to have serious problems in use. I don't particularly care for it, but I can see a real niche for people needing the smallest possible profile. And, with the stock installed, the M4 it's installed on is still an M4.
Hope this makes sense.
This device looks about as awesome as the one that uses the shooters chin to absorb the recoil.
justin_247
10-18-12, 12:04
I can tell you right now that the military will NEVER adopt this. Period. So, yes, you are "stuck" with the M-4 and M-16 if you're in the military and not assigned to any special mission units.
Not only that, the military puts very low priority on folding stocks.
And, no, you won't see mid-length gas systems adopted by the military on a large-scale, either.
If you're a civilian, then, no, you are not "stuck" with this. You can buy an SLR-107 for about $800-$900.
And, yes, there are some companies working on new upper receiver assemblies, even though most are still on the drawing board. As for right now, there's only Z-M Weapons and RRA, but there are others in the works. Read around the forum a bit...
Justin---you do have a point, but there is, I think, a countervailing point to consider. For better or worse, it looks like "we" are "stuck" with the M4 for the foreseeable future. (I share the consensus opinion here that that's not really a bad thing, not at all.)
Being "stuck" with the M4 means that novel upper receiver assemblies aren't going to happen. We're going to be operating with very similar upper and lower receivers for a while. If there's going to be progress (and there is), it's going to be around the edges. Ambi-selectors and mag releases, mid-length gas (maybe), the Vltor A5 receiver extension----these are all upgrades (arguably) to the M4, but it's still an M4.
The folding stock may flop. It might not strike the right chord with the buying public, and it might turn out to have serious problems in use. I don't particularly care for it, but I can see a real niche for people needing the smallest possible profile. And, with the stock installed, the M4 it's installed on is still an M4.
Hope this makes sense.
This entire idea is dumb
Sure, if you don't like it... it must be dumb, yet someone introducing a proprietary and redesigned gas system which changes the entire weapon would be great. Ok. :p
Getting rid of the buffer assembly has been done before, if you don't remember it, that would be because it didn't stick around.
Serpico1985
10-18-12, 16:03
Moonlight Again,
Well said. I think if it proves to meet a certain level of reliabilty and durablity it could fill a niche roll for SBR's. The idea of putting a loaded SBR in a case about the size of a laptop case it pretty cool. Of course this device isn't going to be adopted by the military but that doesn't mean it can't serve a limited purpose and fill a limited roll well.
Para Ordnance made an AR that was a "true folder" but it didn't stay in production. It is my understanding another company decided to produce it, though. That's as far as the tracks go. The "FPS Russia" AR also looks to be a folder of sorts.
All this said, this system seems to allow for more actual AR parts to be kept while allowing users to have the option of folding the stock.
Having a folding stock actually is pretty nice in some instances.
technician
10-18-12, 16:20
The idea of putting a loaded SBR in a case about the size of a laptop case it pretty cool. Of course this device isn't going to be adopted by the military but that doesn't mean it can't serve a limited purpose and fill a limited roll well.
This was my first thought seeing the device. A MK18 clone would be very compact.
Here is a video detailing installation (http://youtu.be/ylyZZJtoUGw) and another video that is more or less an advertisement (http://youtu.be/2vI7RMI59Q4), but you get to see it in action.
sinlessorrow
10-18-12, 16:47
Maybe its just me but what is the point of a folding stock? Other fitting your rifle in a small case I see no real use for these.
Maybe its just me but what is the point of a folding stock? Other fitting your rifle in a small case I see no real use for these.
For individuals that have the need for a compact and discrete weapon, a folding stock serves it's purpose. Only purpose for a folding stock is to make the weapon more compact. So if storage in a small case is needed...there is a real use for those that need it.
justin_247
10-20-12, 13:37
Para Ordnance made an AR that was a "true folder" but it didn't stay in production. It is my understanding another company decided to produce it, though. That's as far as the tracks go. The "FPS Russia" AR also looks to be a folder of sorts.
You have it backwards... Para Ordnance *licensed* an AR with a folding stock from X-M Weapons. X-M still makes those rifles.
The FPS Russia AR seems to be a somewhat more valid design than this silly half-ass folding stock.
....this silly half-ass folding stock.
Is there something personal between you and the company? You make it a point to be extra negative and use names at every chance, but it doesn't sound like you've ever actually handled one. You started with folding stocks being worthless, then others are valid, its just this one that is bad for no reason other than the names you call it. Have you used something similar and had a problem?
Being as I actually have one, and have used it, I'm trying to figure out what your angle is.
It isn't going to be something for everyone, but neither are Glocks, 1911s, ARs or AKs.
ZM Weapons licensed it to Para Ordnance, it's run its course apparently, ZM still sells it. YHM made it for ZM, not sure about when PO licensed it, or now.
While ZM Weapons system is proprietary and used many parts that are not interchangeable with other ARs (op rod attached to carrier, top main spring, half moon clip spring retainer, etc.), the LAW stock uses fewer proprietary components, leaving the AR's operating system largely unchanged.
justin_247
10-20-12, 14:40
Is there something personal between you and the company? You make it a point to be extra negative and use names at every chance, but it doesn't sound like you've ever actually handled one . . . Have you used something similar and had a problem?
Being as I actually have one, and have used it, I'm trying to figure out what your angle is.
I could ask you something similar... are you being paid by the company and are you advertising for them on this forum? Because you are awfully defensive of them!
Did the company provide this product to you for free? Are you being allowed to keep it? Have you yet fired the weapon with this device attached, or are you nothing more than a picture man? What do you see as the utility of it?
I have laid out my arguments against this before. It doesn't take a genius to see all the problems with this device.
You started with folding stocks being worthless, then others are valid, its just this one that is bad for no reason other than the names you call it.
I have NEVER said that folding stocks are worthless. NEVER. All I have said is that the current AR system is not designed for a folding stock. Even you admit this by stating the simple fact that firing the weapon when this stock is folded WILL RESULT IN DAMAGE TO THE WEAPON. Holy crap... why would you want to put something on your gun that introduces more potential points of failure?
sinlessorrow
10-20-12, 14:48
ZM Weapons licensed it to Para Ordnance, it's run its course apparently, ZM still sells it. YHM made it for ZM, not sure about when PO licensed it, or now.
While ZM Weapons system is proprietary and used many parts that are not interchangeable with other ARs (op rod attached to carrier, top main spring, half moon clip spring retainer, etc.), the LAW stock uses fewer proprietary components, leaving the AR's operating system largely unchanged.
The ZM oddly enough is actually a DI system, the carrier has a extended carrier key.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/albums-cc212-olava1-ar15-img-0644.jpg
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-20-12, 14:51
You have it backwards... Para Ordnance *licensed* an AR with a folding stock from X-M Weapons. X-M still makes those rifles.
The FPS Russia AR seems to be a somewhat more valid design than this silly half-ass folding stock.
I suppose I fail to see why you hate this product so much. IF it turns out to be a quality product, then I can see a real application for it for those carrying AR type rifles in vehicles. I imagine a Mk18 with a side folding stock would fit quite well on my passenger seat.
justin_247
10-20-12, 14:55
The ZM oddly enough is actually a DI system, the carrier has a extended carrier key.
That's sort of along the lines of how it works... the system primarily moves the recoil assembly from the receiver extension and puts it in the upper receiver.
I've been told they have a few tiny parts that can be easily lost when tearing the system down, but it is a nifty idea.
justin_247
10-20-12, 15:01
I suppose I fail to see why you hate this product so much. IF it turns out to be a quality product, then I can see a real application for it for those carrying AR type rifles in vehicles. I imagine a Mk18 with a side folding stock would fit quite well on my passenger seat.
Please read my reply to Stickman.
My biggest problem with this, beyond the fact that it introduces points of failure to the weapon and can easily cause damage to it, is what I discussed earlier in this thread: if you want a folding stock in an AR, quit half-assing it and redesign the upper receiver assembly so that it doesn't need the receiver extension to operate.
I have also discussed this issue in other threads.
sinlessorrow
10-20-12, 15:15
Please read my reply to Stickman.
My biggest problem with this, beyond the fact that it introduces points of failure to the weapon and can easily cause damage to it, is what I discussed earlier in this thread: if you want a folding stock in an AR, quit half-assing it and redesign the upper receiver assembly so that it doesn't need the receiver extension to operate.
I have also discussed this issue in other threads.
I wouldnt call this half assed. This stock system is well thought out and they did their best to allow the user to use as many common parts as possible, and as long as you dont shoot withthe stock folded your fine.
justin_247
10-20-12, 15:24
I wouldnt call this half assed. This stock system is well thought out and they did their best to allow the user to use as many common parts as possible, and as long as you dont shoot withthe stock folded your fine.
I mean "half-assed" as in "taking the easy way out"... ie, not designing a new recoil system for the weapon. The hinge isn't half-ass... the intent is.
you are awfully defensive of them!
Not defensive, just tired of ignorant postings from people. Nice try, I'm not paid by them.
Again, your childish delving into name calling of inanimate objects only points out your lack of solid argument. Had you laid out reasons instead of posting like a 12 year old, I wouldn't have cared at all.
At this point you are nothing more than noise behind the cage, and as I don't reply to them, I won't be making additional replies to you either.
To the OP, sorry your thread was derailed to such a degree.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-20-12, 15:31
I mean "half-assed" as in "taking the easy way out"... ie, not designing a new recoil system for the weapon. The hinge isn't half-ass... the intent is.
The hybrid-electric engine was half assed because the creators didnt just design a spaceship.
The LCD Flat Screen TV was half assed for its time because the creators didnt just up and create the LED TV.
The M1903 was half assed because the creators didnt just create the M1 Garand...M1 was half assed because they didnt create the M14....etc.
Are you ****ing kidding me with your line of thought? An innovative product comes along that has yet to be vetted, and your CONSTANT and unwavering criticism is that "it's a half-assed design because a mom-and-pop machine shop didnt just CREATE A WHOLE NEW FREAKING RIFLE".
justin_247
10-20-12, 15:39
Again, your childish delving into name calling of inanimate objects only points out your lack of solid argument. Had you laid out reasons instead of posting like a 12 year old, I wouldn't have cared at all.
I laid out my reasons extremely clearly, but you simply chose to not read them. Not only that, you have not yet provided your reasoning as to why this product is good, despite the fact that I asked.
So, feel free to ignore me in the future... you're certainly not going to hurt my feelings!
The hybrid-electric engine was half assed because the creators didnt just design a spaceship.
The LCD Flat Screen TV was half assed for its time because the creators didnt just up and create the LED TV.
The M1903 was half assed because the creators didnt just create the M1 Garand...M1 was half assed because they didnt create the M14....etc.
Are you ****ing kidding me with your line of thought? An innovative product comes along that has yet to be vetted, and your CONSTANT and unwavering criticism is that "it's a half-assed design because a mom-and-pop machine shop didnt just CREATE A WHOLE NEW FREAKING RIFLE".
Everything in here is irrelevant to the topic and loaded with logical fallacies combined with a certain level of ignorance as to how these products came into being.
justin_247
10-20-12, 15:52
Let's bring in more quotes as to why this is a bad idea:
If you want a folding stock (still don't know why anyone would go out of their way to have a folding stock...) get a rifle that was designed with a folding stock in mind.
Attempting to retro-fit a folding stock on a weapon that was intended to have a buffer tube attached to the rear of the receiver will end in disaster...
As far as I know nothing you have cited is actually available for purchase and none of them are proven. By proven I don't mean someone went to the range one time and it worked for 300 rounds.
I mean proven as in the system has had thousands and thousands of rounds trhough it over time and all the kinks worked out.
As others have mentioned, if you want a folding system get something designed to use it.
I put the folding stock Idea in the same category has the piston AR.
If you have to have it you better be looking for something that has a design that allows for it with out bastardizing the operating system.
Magic_Salad0892
10-20-12, 18:30
Stick,
Thanks for the pics you've posted, and for trying to sort this thread out.
He has 1k rounds on it now. No malfunctions.
uncommon commoner
10-21-12, 11:35
Stick,
Thanks for the pics you've posted, and for trying to sort this thread out.
He has 1k rounds on it now. No malfunctions.
This is why I viewed this thread. To find out if it will stand up to sustained shooting. No, it's not under the "combat conditions" that things seem to have to pass by people who will shoot their rifles at a range 3 times a year, if that. In a combat zone I wouldn't want a folded stock anyway , unless I was some knuckle head in man jams thinking allah was guiding my bullets. If you don't have/see a use for this product... fine, move on. Hopefully useful info could be collected by those of us who do, without having to read all the "this is lame" posts. I would like this on my duty carbine that sees a hell of a lot of time being moved in and out of the trunk of my car. When in plain clothes, I like the idea of a real rifle being able to be carried in and out of my house in a package that looks way too short to be holding a weapon. If it has to be used for more than range use (think fast paced fluid movement in a critical situation)it would never be thought of something that would be used with the stock folded, but could be unfolded in a snap instead of trying to put an upper and lower together under stress and hoping the bcg didn't fall out while in the case, which they do on separated uppers that are carried that way. (experience, not theory) Not trying to flame anyone, just stating MY stance and reasons. As said, if you do not have /see reasons for it and I do, that is why capitalism works.
Lastly, everyone get out there and vote so we may continue to have products like these to argue about.
This is an interesting product. I can see this having a few limited applications with certain special end-users (ie not civilian) who need to transport a very compact rifle discretely.
This is an interesting product. I can see this having a few limited applications with certain special end-users (ie not civilian) who need to transport a very compact rifle discretely.
why not civilian? this looks like a great solution for my "Rodney King riot/get-home" bag.
that it doesn't fire collapsed is not the most important thing to me. it would be nice if it did but it doesn't invalidate the concept of a compact/discreet way to transport a rifle...
Has anyone posted a general cost for this set-up? I can see a use for this speaking for myself.
Yep, I used to own one. The op rod is attached to the carrier as the pic shows :)
Sold it in 2002 or 2003 or so, I found retractable stocks much more useful. Between the two (stock folded, and standard stock collapsed), we're talking but a few inches, I actually measured it years ago but lost that data since I no longer owned the ZM, the info became irrelevant. At the time of the measurement taken, there was no E-Mod, UBR, and SOPMOD stock was very hard to find ($400 to $500 if you could find a Crane made one) and other stocks that are longer than the ribbed Colt stock, so the difference of 3 inches or so wasn't a big deal. Compared to the longer collapsible stocks, the space saving would be more. ZM also has a folding stock that's length adjustable.
Other than mechanical difference, speaking strictly of stocks folded / unfolded, the ZM Weapons conversion can be fired either way, though it does have more non-standard parts. I want to try the LAW stock, its inability to fire with the stock folded is inevitable and unavoidable without redesigning the spring / buffer system, as ZM Weapons did. Due to its short bolt carrier, the select fire receiver's auto sear has to be relocated as I recall.
For those that need a weapon a few inches shorter, but which requires the stock to be unfolded first, I'm not sure if it serves one purpose, then creates another as a result, it's up to the user to decide if the pros outweighs the cons :)
The ZM oddly enough is actually a DI system, the carrier has a extended carrier key.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/albums-cc212-olava1-ar15-img-0644.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
10-21-12, 18:41
Yep, I used to own one. The op rod is attached to the carrier as the pic shows :)
Sold it in 2002 or 2003 or so, I found retractable stocks much more useful. Between the two (stock folded, and standard stock collapsed), we're talking but a few inches, I actually measured it years ago but lost that data since I no longer owned the ZM, the info became irrelevant. At the time of the measurement taken, there was no E-Mod, UBR, and SOPMOD stock was very hard to find ($400 to $500 if you could find a Crane made one) and other stocks that are longer than the ribbed Colt stock, so the difference of 3 inches or so wasn't a big deal. Compared to the longer collapsible stocks, the space saving would be more. ZM also has a folding stock that's length adjustable.
Other than mechanical difference, speaking strictly of stocks folded / unfolded, the ZM Weapons conversion can be fired either way, though it does have more non-standard parts. I want to try the LAW stock, its inability to fire with the stock folded is inevitable and unavoidable without redesigning the spring / buffer system, as ZM Weapons did. Due to its short bolt carrier, the select fire receiver's auto sear has to be relocated as I recall.
For those that need a weapon a few inches shorter, but which requires the stock to be unfolded first, I'm not sure if it serves one purpose, then creates another as a result, it's up to the user to decide if the pros outweighs the cons :)
Thanks for that post Duffy.
The LAW folding stock should see another 200 rounds today. (It's our weekend so today, and tomorrow him, and I are gonna shoot it.)
Magic_Salad0892
10-23-12, 03:16
We put another 400 through it today.
No malfunctions.
uncommon commoner
01-27-13, 15:32
We put another 400 through it today.
No malfunctions.
Any further updates? I have been checking the Law Tactical web sight and the adapter is still only able to be back ordered. Hope they don't end up pulling a Kel-Tec and inventing an innovative product, then only releasing a couple dozen to the market.
I would really like to get one, too. I am a little confused about how it protects the action from extraneous debris when folded.
This is an interesting product. I can see this having a few limited applications with certain special end-users (ie not civilian) who need to transport a very compact rifle discretely.
I live in an apartment complex. Dead center of it. Walking through with a gun bag is not the best idea. I usually break mine down and use a discrete bag. But this would be so much nicer IMHO. Less wear and tear on the take down pin assemblies. No open lower half and upper half. No bolt and CH sliding out of my upper in the bag.
Im SBRing my Colt soon and I also plan on buying one of these eventually. I want to see how well they progress.
But to fold it over and stuff it in a regular joe shmoe backback to walk through my apartment or anywhere for that matter before or after going to the range... Brilliant.
This is an interesting product. I can see this having a few limited applications with certain special end-users (ie not civilian) who need to transport a very compact rifle discretely.
There are plenty of reasons for a civilian to want to transport a rifle discreetly.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
uncommon commoner
01-27-13, 16:08
I would really like to get one, too. I am a little confused about how it protects the action from extraneous debris when folded.
I don't believe it would, or is made to. It would seem that most are interested in this for carrying the folded AR cased, not open.
mastiffhound
01-27-13, 18:46
Cool idea no doubt. The intrusion of dirt is a worry. Adding another entry point for dirt seem like a bad idea. $199 dollars will get me a whole lot for my AK, including the folding stock. It would work for a very limited market, 007 might like it though.
I like it but is sucks you can't fire it while the stock is folded. I understand that is the down fall unless it is redesigned like others have said.
I like it because it can be stored a little more easily for example under a seat.
Wow.. on the derailment of the thread... Not cool.
Any case it does look like an interesting design.. not for everyone but definitely can see a market where you want to store it in a backpack. I might just try it out for the heck of it.
Magic_Salad0892
02-12-13, 02:20
He told me he's put another 300 rounds on it since November, but hasn't been able to shoot much since December.
No malfunctions, yet.
I'm thinking of molding a simple kydex cap/holster to put on the back of the receiver when folded. Maybe it could somehow fit inside the empty space of a MOE or CTR type stock when not folded.
Or maybe I should just get a rifle designed with a folding stock to begin with.
I'm thinking of molding a simple kydex cap/holster to put on the back of the receiver when folded
.
Why?
I like the idea and primary design. Sort of hard to believe it's so hindered by a "tab" that is bent and needs repair if fired while folded. Haven't seen one up close but there's got to be some way to rectify that. I think.
I like the idea and primary design. Sort of hard to believe it's so hindered by a "tab" that is bent and needs repair if fired while folded. Haven't seen one up close but there's got to be some way to rectify that. I think.
How is that hindering the design? The tab is there so that the BCG doesn't fly back and hit you in the face or anywhere else if you fire it while folded and the tab is designed weaker and bends so you don't permanently damage your serialized lower. Both those things seem like good ideas to me.
Well, in case it's being transported in a backpack with other items and food or in anything else other than a dedicated case/bag, I wouldn't want random things falling inside the bolt carrier group.
I this device is designed primarily for easy transportation of an AR, without having to break it down. I think that it could be made a little better by having a way to keep the rifle "sealed".
I'm still buying it.
Well, in case it's being transported in a backpack with other items and food or in anything else other than a dedicated case/bag, I wouldn't want random things falling inside the bolt carrier group.
I this device is designed primarily for easy transportation of an AR, without having to break it down. I think that it could be made a little better by having a way to keep the rifle "sealed".
I'm still buying it.
It is pretty clear you don't have one, and have never handled one. If you did, you would see your concern as a non-issue.
Does anyone carry a handful of loose sand in the bottom of their pack? Right, didn't think so...
I've actually carried broken down AR's in backpacks. One little blow in the lower and one in the upper cleaned out any dust or sand particles that made their way in.
I would really like to get one, too. I am a little confused about how it protects the action from extraneous debris when folded.
I don't believe it would, or is made to. It would seem that most are interested in this for carrying the folded AR cased, not open.
Stickman,
I never said I did. This conversation about debris came from my initial question quoted above. Not trying to bad mouth the design, I like it and want to get one. If this was thread hijacking on my part, I apologize.
Alex
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
Stick,
Thanks for the pics you've posted, and for trying to sort this thread out.
He has 1k rounds on it now. No malfunctions.
Interesting concept, thanks for posting it. Definitely a specialized piece of gear, but I can see uses for it.
Tennvol12345
03-31-13, 19:00
I'll be ordering one within the next week for my LMT 10.5 SBR. Where I'm moving to this summer I'll be able to mountain bike to a 200yd outdoor range from my house and this would make it much easier to transport in a backpack.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
It took me a total of 1 minute to google this product and fine the install youtube video from the company that I then watched taking less then 7 minutes in total.
Anyone talking about an open "ass end" of your carrier group needs to copy and paste the product name in google and watch the video that pops up on the second google hit.
I'm intrigued by this piece of kit and may want to see more.
Just saw the new promo on AR15 news for the Gen2 version $209.
Has anyone else bought this? I'm always intrigued by folding stocks like in FN Scar and AK's.
Seems a company called JARD also made a complete upper designed to accept and fire with a folding stock, but it costs ~$700. So this LAW adapter is a fairly cheap option.
JARD J16
http://www.jardinc.com/images/stories/Products/J16.jpg
I mean "half-assed" as in "taking the easy way out"... ie, not designing a new recoil system for the weapon. The hinge isn't half-ass... the intent is.
I don't see any of the half-*** intent or easy way out on this product. They created a cheaper option for those who would like to have a compact rifle for whatever personal or professional purpose, instead of buying a completely new rifle (AK, Sig556) or different upper like the J16 which costs more $$.
$500 difference between the 2 products is substantial...
I don't see any of the half-*** intent or easy way out on this product. They created a cheaper option for those who would like to have a compact rifle for whatever personal or professional purpose, instead of buying a completely new rifle (AK, Sig556) or different upper like the J16 which costs more $$.
How many people's lives could be saved by being able to fold your stock? Not many.
How many lives could potentially be lost if someone has an AD or is forced into a guns solution with a target with the stock folded? That's much more realistic.
It doesn't solve anything that it doesn't create an equal or bigger problem for. Logically, it doesn't make sense in the real world, because the only users who might have a legitimate use for this are the same users who are likely to receive returned fire. I'll admit it looks good on paper, but it introduces another failure point on a combat weapon.
I'm with Justin on this one. I'd have much rather seen a new stock solution altogether than a modification to an integral weapon component, like this:
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss13/huge/P1110401.jpg
In the real world, 90% are probably civilian shooters.
Its not so much about saving lives for them, as many AR owners are range plinkers or competition shooters. It does solve a small issue for those looking for a more compact storage solution on rifle-length (16inch) AR's without going to a pistol or short-barrel design. The J16 posted is still a standard AR with a modified BCG/upper design, so it does not create a problem to begin with. The LAW stock, well that remains to be seen as no one has posted a torture test on a mass-produced scale. Its not something I would put on my rifle anyway, was just curious about the design.
If lives were really at stake and I had to fight BG's on a daily basis, I'd be using an HK416 SBR...
AAC honey badger. Problem solved.
How many people's lives could be saved by being able to fold your stock? Not many.
How many lives could potentially be lost if someone has an AD or is forced into a guns solution with a target with the stock folded? That's much more realistic.
Huh? You lost me.
In this review they actually test fired it with the stock folded. Personally after watching this video the field stripping issues are what bothers me, not the fact that it can't be fired more than once while folded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3rab8d5fHU
I have one but haven't tried it yet.
Workmanship is very good. They lock up really tight. I'm not excited by the design. Field stripping is easy if you have a lower if it has a milled slot where you can slide the upper forward. Otherwise you do have to remove the part from the BCG when you want to break it down.
I would only use it for placing my SBR into a smaller pack otherwise I don't have any use for it..
justin_247
06-06-13, 01:21
In this review they actually test fired it with the stock folded. Personally after watching this video the field stripping issues are what bothers me, not the fact that it can't be fired more than once while folded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3rab8d5fHU
Field stripping!?!?! Who needs that? An AR is meant to stay in the safe and be dragged out every few months to show your friends.
DEXIX_five-oh
06-12-13, 05:26
Field stripping!?!?! Who needs that? An AR is meant to stay in the safe and be dragged out every few months to show your friends.
Reading this thread from the begining was like walking into a room and listening to people arguing about whether the loch ness monster can breath fire. I just do NOT understand where justin and others are coming from.
I understood and liked this product from the first time I saw it. Handling them at SHOT only reinforced that. If you dont understand it, Let me ask you this : have you EVER transported your AR broken down? If yes; this product is a brilliant solution. Saves you time, might save you some zeroing, CERTAINLY helps if you're carrying discreetly out in the world.
Skyrr : You think a folding stock you need one second to deploy is dangerous, but you think a rifle broken into two pieces in the same situation is, what, safer?
This doesn't replace the AK, this obviates the need to break your rifle in half so goddamn often.
justin_247
06-12-13, 10:43
If you dont understand it, Let me ask you this : have you EVER transported your AR broken down?
Are you serious? Of course I have.
Saves you time, might save you some zeroing
I leave my optics on the upper receiver, so I don't need to re-zero.
CERTAINLY helps if you're carrying discreetly out in the world.
My rifle, when the lower half separated from the upper half, is shorter than an assembled rifle with a folding stock. Putting the two halves together takes a matter of seconds.
Skyrr : You think a folding stock you need one second to deploy is dangerous, but you think a rifle broken into two pieces in the same situation is, what, safer?
This doesn't replace the AK, this obviates the need to break your rifle in half so goddamn often.
Apparently, you failed to see that the target demographic of this product is people who aim and shoot at other people for a living. These are the people who will primarily find a use for this product. By that same note, these are the very same people who rely on their weapons for life and death and do not want to add additional failure points to their systems.
By adding this, you're adding an extra two (2) potential failure points to the weapon, and for what? An extra 5-6 inches of storage space? You can save more than that by simply breaking down the weapon.
The only time this would be of any use is if you're carrying a concealed AR in a backpack or case in a professional capacity. This presents an issue if the person carrying the weapon has to retrieve it quickly, because usually the situation has escalated and they need their rifle. It requires the user to go through an extra step to ready the rifle and, if they don't (and fire it while folded), it can cause the weapon to lock up when it's needed most.
If you want to save space, go with an SBR or go with an HK-style stock such as is on the LWRC models. Both will save just as much (or more) space without adding additional failure points. Or, heck, go with an SBR and break it down and save more space than is even possible with any of the aforementioned options.
People used to realize that the AR is good at some things and not so great at others - it has limitations, like any other weapon. Trying to force the AR to have a SCAR or SIG-556-esque stock at the cost of weapon simplicity and reliability is counter-productive.
Saves you time, might save you some zeroing.
No, it wouldn't, unless you're the kind of guy that takes off optics to save 3-4" of storage space but won't separate the upper and lower which would save nearly 8".
Boba Fett v2
05-07-19, 20:45
I can tell you right now that the military will NEVER adopt this. Period. So, yes, you are "stuck" with the M-4 and M-16 if you're in the military and not assigned to any special mission units.
Not only that, the military puts very low priority on folding stocks.
And, no, you won't see mid-length gas systems adopted by the military on a large-scale, either.
If you're a civilian, then, no, you are not "stuck" with this. You can buy an SLR-107 for about $800-$900.
And, yes, there are some companies working on new upper receiver assemblies, even though most are still on the drawing board. As for right now, there's only Z-M Weapons and RRA, but there are others in the works. Read around the forum a bit...
http://soldiersystems.net/2019/01/10/law-tactical-receives-nato-stock-numbers-for-ar-folding-stock-adapter-gen3m-and-parts-kit/
Law Tactical LLC, an American design, develop and manufacturing company creating innovative, premium grade products for the AR family of weapons systems, has been issued two National Stocking Number’s (NSN) from the Naval Sea Systems Command, Naval Surface Warfare Center – Crane Division (NSWC Crane).
National Stock Numbers (NSN) 1005-01-672-4614 for the AR Folding Stock Adapter Gen-3M, (M4 CARBINE FOLDING STOCK) and (NSN) 1005-01-672-4612 for the Parts Kit, (PARTS KIT, M4 CARBINE FOLDING STOCK).
NSN’s are used by U.S. military services, Department of Defense (DoD), disposition services, federal agencies (such as GSA, FAA, DHS, etc.), North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), and many various governments around the world. When added to a product label, the NSN indicates a review and approval for use within the military’s logistics supply chain.
Law Tactical, stated: "The assignment of the NSN’s for our Folding Stock Adapter and Parts Kit is a significant milestone. It provides an important capability to the end users, that minimizes individual weapons signatures without the need to acquire additional or new more expensive weapon systems."
titsonritz
05-07-19, 22:33
^^^^Just in case it is missed. :sarcastic:
They are a solid product, I had one on a pistol but sold it when I need some cash. I'd buy another one.
What's the record for necro posting? You guys aren't much shy of 6 years.
FWIW I had LAW folders on a couple of my rifles - my SBR and my main range toy. Worked great, never a problem Used to carry the SBR around in the saddle bag of my street glide.
Then, not too long ago I tired of them and switched them around to my Remington TAC 14 (using a Mesa Adapter) and a dedicated .22 pistol build.
They are good to go, though, especially if you need something that minimizes individual weapons signatures without the need to acquire additional or new more expensive weapon systems.
So like everything else now that is has an NSN the price will double. Their ok, didn't have any issue with mine. If you do pull hard into your shoulder they do flex at the joint a tad. If weight is a concern, will add about 9 ounces to the gun.
SeriousStudent
05-08-19, 18:43
What's the record for necro posting? You guys aren't much shy of 6 years.
.....[/I]
The record is right at 9 years.
I'm not issuing a challenge, by the way.
The record is right at 9 years.
I'm not issuing a challenge, by the way.
You had me at 9 years. :lol:
Boba Fett v2
05-09-19, 14:52
So like everything else now that is has an NSN the price will double. Their ok, didn't have any issue with mine. If you do pull hard into your shoulder they do flex at the joint a tad. If weight is a concern, will add about 9 ounces to the gun.
Maybe. Maybe not. Still able to get them at the regular price for now, but then again that will probably change when the cloners see these start to show up in pics from SOF guys using them downrange.
titsonritz
05-09-19, 16:37
They were just on sale at Primary Arms for $209.99 plus an additional $10 of with code SAVE10ON100 or spend a few more uck and get a $30 savings with code SAVE30ON300
Boba Fett v2
05-12-19, 13:50
They were just on sale at Primary Arms for $209.99 plus an additional $10 of with code SAVE10ON100 or spend a few more uck and get a $30 savings with code SAVE30ON300
Good price. Wish I had paid that for both of mine. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.
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