View Full Version : Suppressor POI Shifts
Maybe I'm not using the correct words, but searching for suppressor shift didn't yield anything but a few anecdotal examples.
Would it be alright to have a thread where we discuss and post examples of POI shift from various cans? I know I was surprised to see the shift for my new Surefire was nothing like what they advertise. And my groups spread out - they claim to tighten them.
I'll start and if the mods want to kill/close the thread I won't lose any sleep. Maybe the demand for this information isn't there.
This is what SF claims for POI shift:
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/SFPOIShiftWebsite.jpg
These are my results:
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-45.jpg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-44.jpg
(aiming point w/ can was the small orange dot in the center)
Suppressor: Surefire 556-212DE
Muzzle Device: Surefire FH556-215A
Ammo: Asym 77gr OTM and Southwest Ammo 77gr SMK (each target noted)
Rifle: Lilja M4 Patrolman 16" bbl, 1/8 twist, free-floated handguard
Distance: 100 yards
Rests: Shot from bench with front and rear bags for support.
In both cases the group moved low about 3-4 inches, and left 1-2 inches. The groups with the can also spread instead of staying the same or tightening.
VERY interesting. I'd love to see a whole lot more evidence. Top 3 (SF, AAC, KAC) especially. I don't have a rifle can, or I'd add to the pile.
Apricotshot
10-18-12, 14:19
I'll try this with my Halo and my M4S in a few weeks. I know the Halo has a pretty wild shift already.
Deputy Dan
10-18-12, 14:23
I also have a -212 and use the 215 FH/suppressor mount on my 6920.
I get about a 3 inch change in POI downward at 100, windage is same as without can... I have only fired M193 through it, when I get time I will try M855, Mk262 etc.
The POI shift is repeatable, so I can live with that.
Instead of questioning or whining about it, why not contact the Surefire suppressor division? If it is not performing to expectations then tell them so they can address it or assist you.
We did a POI shift test a while back with Pappabear's M4-2000s. Shifts were minimal.. about MOA if I recall correctly.
I'll see if I still have the pic.
Instead of questioning or whining about it, why not contact the Surefire suppressor division? If it is not performing to expectations then tell them so they can address it or assist you.
I'm hardly whining. If that's the shift, then I'm good with it as it is consistent. I just figured it would be helpful to have a thread with examples of POI shift for people to reference.
It's really hard to say anything for certain about shift.
The important (and generally true) thing is that it exactly repeats each time the can is mounted.
What shift you'll see depends on a ton of factors- the ammo, your guns' barrel length, barrel profile, freefloat or not, the length, weight, and internal design of the can, any thread-concentricity variance, any manufacturing tolerance variation or stacking on the mounts and the can... and more.
In my experience with many many cans on various hosts over the years, I usually see 1 to 3 MOA of shift... and the direction of that shift seems to be all over the place- it can be any direction from unsuppressed to suppressed.
SF is usually on the smaller end of this, but I've seen particular setups have literally no shift and some have 5 or 6 MOA. What I've seen have been consistent with brands like SF, KAC, AAC, YHM, OPS, etc.
I DO usually see groups tighten up though, so that part of your testing is interesting.
JasonM makes good points. I can take the same can and get almost no shift on one gun, and 4 MOA shift on another. I've actually seen this with my m4-1000 07 model on two different 14.5 guns.
Jason, on a long range rifle with repeatable clicks a significant shift can be accounted for thats true but I'm not pulling a cap off my T-1 micro to adjust it when I put a can on...
FWIW with my SF FA556AR I can't shoot well enough with an aimpoint to see movement in the groups with or without the can.
I'm by no means upset with the performance. I'm new to cans and trying to figure out what's normal, and go from there. I do find their photos interesting, but they may have had the rifle in a vise for all I know. That's why I proposed including all the pertinent rifle data for each person who posts an example. Next time I plan to do a comparison with my 11.5" rifle and see what happens.
I'm not a sniper, so making a perfect head shot isn't a concern for me. I know even with the shift I can hit a torso size target all day long with the can even if I don't re-zero.
I'm also curious to know if how I mount it can make a difference. On the 16" gun the 215A hider has 4 separate places that the stub inside can be when mounted. Basically, think 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock. I used the 2 o'clock tine/prong yesterday. Perhaps if I use the 8 o'clock the group will move in the opposite (up, right) direction?
Thanks gents!
SF is usually on the smaller end of this, but I've seen particular setups have literally no shift and some have 5 or 6 MOA. What I've seen have been consistent with brands like SF, KAC, AAC, YHM, OPS, etc.
I DO usually see groups tighten up though, so that part of your testing is interesting.
So the shift is within parameters. That's what I figured - thanks. As for the groups opening up... it may have been me. I don't claim to be an amazing shot. I'll try some other ammo as well in the future.
Jason, on a long range rifle with repeatable clicks a significant shift can be accounted for thats true but I'm not pulling a cap off my T-1 micro to adjust it when I put a can on...
FWIW with my SF FA556AR I can't shoot well enough with an aimpoint to see movement in the groups with or without the can.
Agreed that easily adjustable scopes are the best way to deal with it, if it affects you.
I'm not arguing about how to best deal with it, i'm simply stating what my experience has been.
Personally, most of my shooting with cans is not terribly long range and mostly using 4 MOA T-1s, so the big dot combined with the typical plinking ammo practically negates any POI shift in terms of the experience. (sounds kind of similar to your experience)
I'm also curious to know if how I mount it can make a difference. On the 16" gun the 215A hider has 4 separate places that the stub inside can be when mounted. Basically, think 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock. I used the 2 o'clock tine/prong yesterday. Perhaps if I use the 8 o'clock the group will move in the opposite (up, right) direction?
Definitely worth a shot, you might find one position that has less shift than the others. mark it with a sharpie.
Is the shift in the same direction with both ammo types?
Major manufactures make a product (suppressor) to certain standards of fit/finish/operation/etc.. One of these "standards" is (or should be) a measured limited "shift" of POI.
I do not know if they "pressure-test" a suppressor during manufacture to see if anything comes loose......nor if the test for a shift of POI to see if each manufactured suppressor is within any set limits. I believe that during the manufacturer's initial testing.....but more importantly, during demonstrations for the military and Law-Enforcement, they should be able to fire a weapon with and without the suppressor and hit a target out to _____range. I understand "interior-ballistics, and how outsides factors such as wind/temp./altitude play into this.
I believe that a few questions do stand out here which may not be limited to the questions/posting/conversation in this thread so far, but I don't want to get off topic, nor stir things up.
1: Can someone list down the major reason why there could be a shift of POI other than saying "it could be for any number of reason such as ___, ___, ___, etc......and possibly a little insight as to why for each item.
2: If you have a "shift" that repeats itself..........has anyone addressed this issue to a specific manufacturer, and have they corrected that "shift" with any additional work to the suppressor (?)........What was the outcome of contacting a manufacturer (what did they tell you)(?)..........Did the weapon have to be sent to them for fitment, etc. (?).
2: If it is ammo related, can the manufacture suggest a specific loading (IE: Bullet-weight and loading FPS/bullet-speed using _____length barrel w/___"-twist........such as to mimic what they used for testing, and use during demonstrations so they could show minimal "shift" of POI .)......or state the barrel-length/twist-rate and loading so that a new purchaser of their suppressor can limit his/her shift of POI when attaching their suppressor (?).
.....and What has any manufacturer told you (?).
3: Are there any "points" as to what a person can do to bring down the amount of "shift" , or move the "POI" without changing the settings to their optics when using a suppressor (?).
Regards, RichardS in MI.
US Army, Retired.
PS: I am awaiting Transfer-approval of a new suppressor for my 5.56x45mm rifle.......so any good information will help.
The biggest answer to all your questions is that the barrel of the host weapon is the biggest variable. The same suppressor mounted to two different barrels will likely have different POI shifts. That's why the smart suppressor company has stated shift to be "minimal" and "repeatable", while the over-charging, marketing-driven suppressor company has used "minimal POI shift" as a marketing tool, while obviously and as the evidence in this thread shows, that is not always the case, nor can it be guaranteed. If barrel harmonics play a large enough role that benchrest shooters are willing to hang weights off their barrels, what sort role do you think hanging a 1lb + suppressor off the end is going to have?
Bottom line is it doesn't effect combat effective accuracy. If you want precision, thread the suppressor on your gun, get your dope, and never take the thing off again.
The biggest answer to all your questions is that the barrel of the host weapon is the biggest variable. The same suppressor mounted to two different barrels will likely have different POI shifts. That's why the smart suppressor company has stated shift to be "minimal" and "repeatable", while the over-charging, marketing-driven suppressor company has used "minimal POI shift" as a marketing tool, while obviously and as the evidence in this thread shows, that is not always the case, nor can it be guaranteed. If barrel harmonics play a large enough role that benchrest shooters are willing to hang weights off their barrels, what sort role do you think hanging a 1lb + suppressor off the end is going to have?
Bottom line is it doesn't effect combat effective accuracy. If you want precision, thread the suppressor on your gun, get your dope, and never take the thing off again.
Perfect answer
Major manufactures make a product (suppressor) to certain standards of fit/finish/operation/etc.. One of these "standards" is (or should be) a measured limited "shift" of POI.
I do not know if they "pressure-test" a suppressor during manufacture to see if anything comes loose......nor if the test for a shift of POI to see if each manufactured suppressor is within any set limits. I believe that during the manufacturer's initial testing.....but more importantly, during demonstrations for the military and Law-Enforcement, they should be able to fire a weapon with and without the suppressor and hit a target out to _____range. I understand "interior-ballistics, and how outsides factors such as wind/temp./altitude play into this.
I believe that a few questions do stand out here which may not be limited to the questions/posting/conversation in this thread so far, but I don't want to get off topic, nor stir things up.
1: Can someone list down the major reason why there could be a shift of POI other than saying "it could be for any number of reason such as ___, ___, ___, etc......and possibly a little insight as to why for each item.
2: If you have a "shift" that repeats itself..........has anyone addressed this issue to a specific manufacturer, and have they corrected that "shift" with any additional work to the suppressor (?)........What was the outcome of contacting a manufacturer (what did they tell you)(?)..........Did the weapon have to be sent to them for fitment, etc. (?).
2: If it is ammo related, can the manufacture suggest a specific loading (IE: Bullet-weight and loading FPS/bullet-speed using _____length barrel w/___"-twist........such as to mimic what they used for testing, and use during demonstrations so they could show minimal "shift" of POI .)......or state the barrel-length/twist-rate and loading so that a new purchaser of their suppressor can limit his/her shift of POI when attaching their suppressor (?).
.....and What has any manufacturer told you (?).
3: Are there any "points" as to what a person can do to bring down the amount of "shift" , or move the "POI" without changing the settings to their optics when using a suppressor (?).
Regards, RichardS in MI.
US Army, Retired.
PS: I am awaiting Transfer-approval of a new suppressor for my 5.56x45mm rifle.......so any good information will help.
Legit concerns, but you are kind of missing the point in that there are so many factors that affect potential POI shift with a can that they cannot all be anticipated or counteracted.
Unless a manufacturer has your exact gun (not an identical setup, I mean your actual gun) including the ammo you will shoot, they cannot determine the exact shift you will get with your can (or even be 100% of a range you might see).
They can (and some do) test for shift and function on test guns to ensure a general baseline performance, but that doesn't always translate into what you will experience.
Specific to your questions-
1. Major factor is the barrel - combination of length, profile, and concentricity of threading.
2. Any shift will exactly repeat itself with a good can. Getting a mount or can tuned to a particular gun is not done (as far as i've seen), since any "tuning" is fairly worthless if the gun or mount or ammo is changed...
2B. No. Again, it's the combo of all these variables that determine what your particular setup will experience. A general rule is- the shorter and heavier your barrel is, the less POI will be affected (but again, this doesn't always hold true)
3. If your mount system has multiple indexing points, you can test each one to determine which (if any) gives you the least amount of shift.
In terms of real world usage, it's not as much of a concern. if you are bullseye shooting, then leave your can on and zero that way. If you are doing typical carbine shooting at man size targets out to say 100M, a couple MOA shift probably won't be noticeable.
Maybe I'm not using the correct words, but searching for suppressor shift didn't yield anything but a few anecdotal examples.
Would it be alright to have a thread where we discuss and post examples of POI shift from various cans? I know I was surprised to see the shift for my new Surefire was nothing like what they advertise. And my groups spread out - they claim to tighten them.
50 yards from a bench.
Surefire 556-212 with -212 mount
Noveske 14.5" CHF w/switchblock
Vltor VIS upper
MK318 SOST
Aimpoint M4S
POI matches POA with suppressor attached. Shift is exactly 4MOA. Zero is repeatable without any visualization of zero-shift using this ammunition from this weapon. Group size suppressed vs. unsuppressed is not statistically different.
http://i49.tinypic.com/11jupud.jpg
JasonM makes good points. I can take the same can and get almost no shift on one gun, and 4 MOA shift on another. I've actually seen this with my m4-1000 07 model on two different 14.5 guns.
Well I hope my other uppers like my suppressor better. 4 MOA is kindof lame when Surefire claims <1MOA. Supposedly EACH SUPPRESSOR is tested for POI shift and <1 MOA is obtained or it gets smashed.
I would be more than happy to send you a copy of your test target. Just e-mail me your serial number and i will send it over.
I would be more than happy to send you a copy of your test target. Just e-mail me your serial number and i will send it over.
Beyond awesome! I don't doubt that my suppressor meets spec, just wished it met spec on MY rifle. I'd still like a copy of the test target, though! E-mail sent!
I would be more than happy to send you a copy of your test target. Just e-mail me your serial number and i will send it over.
Thanks! I emailed the generic SF technical account. Will send you something direct shortly.
This is for an AK but applies for all rifles really. The key is the barrel vibration and the amplitude and magnitude change a weight attached in the tip of the barrel causes. On thin barrels the weight in the muzzle may also cause the barrel bend a bit causing a drop in POI.
The Suppressor Project experiments about suppressor effect on accuracy and Shift of group center with suppressors and empty suppressors jackets of different weights and a flash hider was tested with a 7.62 x 39 Kalashnikov action Sako/ Valmet M62, fitted with a PSO-1 sniper scope. Test was carried out 15.9.1992 at the 90 meters test range of Finnish Army Arsenal 1 (or Army Depot 1), shooting from sandbag rest with regular Finnish Army ammo. Manufacturer and ammunition lot was VPT 78. 5 round groups were fired with each combination by shooter T. Romppanen.
90 m average 5 shot machine rest group diameters were without suppressor 83 mm and with suppressors 74.8 mm, so tested five different suppressors produced combined 10 per cent tighter average groups. Best groups were shot with TX8, resulting to 52 mm average group diameter, or 37 per cent improvement in accuracy from machine rest.
Impact shift test was shot to demonstrate the effect of mass attached to rifle barrel. It was suspected, that suppressors contributed to accuracy and shifted point of impact primarily by slowing down and suppressing barrel vibrations by their own mass, and not necessarily by affecting the flight of the bullet (excluding wipe type suppressors not tested). It was found, that any extra masses attached to muzzle, including regular flash hider and empty tubes made for this test, produced shift of impact. The amount of shift was roughly proportional to the mass and centre of gravity of the muzzle device. Results are shown in a neighbouring picture.
With the modified Kalashnikov clone, the Valmet M62 assault rifle, barrel vibrations clearly dominate accuracy and impact shift. In all Kalashnikovs, the barrel tends to strongly vibrate diagonally in up and right to down and left plane. The vibration is triggered mainly by the short two lug bolt suddenly clacking from loose to it's right position under chamber pressure. This causes strong bending vibrations in the barrel. The muzzle is allready moving diagonally, as the bullet emerges it. So, any mass attached to muzzle, including flash hider or suppressor, affects the phase and amplitude of muzzle vibrations, thus giving the bullet a usually reduced orthogonal velocity component.
test results (http://guns.connect.fi/rs/impact.html)
Jippo you are welcome to your opinions but I can tell you honestly that our marketing dept is not involved in blowing hot air. As a matter of fact everything you see from us in marketing is in fact a customer’s suppressor targets that we just pull and use. I just sent two customers their suppressed targets today from this thread. I have every single target from every suppressor ever built. Maybe they would like to share the information of their test targets with you. It is not a marketing gig.
Garin, it wasn't really worth saying anyway. And as you can see, it was edited right after writing.
But since you picked it up I think you claimed (don't know if you still do) in the early days was no POI shift when attaching a suppressor. Since any weight on the barrel will disturbs the original barrel harmonics thus leading to POI shift it can be safely said that any, and I do mean any suppressor or other muzzle device on the market, will cause a POI shift. Just because it'll have mass. With some configurations it'll be smaller and with others larger, but still in the end it'll be there.
But I do not want to continue on that line as I do not think a POI shift is a that big deal anyway, given that it is not several MOA and it is repeatable. Let's leave it here, I didn't want to take a cheap shot at your company. Btw. good response. :)
Jippo you are welcome to your opinions but I can tell you honestly that our marketing dept is not involved in blowing hot air. As a matter of fact everything you see from us in marketing is in fact a customer’s suppressor targets that we just pull and use. I just sent two customers their suppressed targets today from this thread. I have every single target from every suppressor ever built. Maybe they would like to share the information of their test targets with you. It is not a marketing gig.
Thank-you!
http://www.computermail.net/email/scripts/attach.pl/uid=58845&pn=2&noInline=0&folder=INBOX/image001.jpg
Garin, it wasn't really worth saying anyway. And as you can see, it was edited right after writing.
But since you picked it up I think you claimed (don't know if you still do) in the early days was no POI shift when attaching a suppressor. Since any weight on the barrel will disturbs the original barrel harmonics thus leading to POI shift it can be safely said that any, and I do mean any suppressor or other muzzle device on the market, will cause a POI shift. Just because it'll have mass. With some configurations it'll be smaller and with others larger, but still in the end it'll be there.
But I do not want to continue on that line as I do not think a POI shift is a that big deal anyway, given that it is not several MOA and it is repeatable. Let's leave it here, I didn't want to take a cheap shot at your company. Btw. good response. :)
My POI shift on my Noveske is 4 MOA. THis could be:
Slightly off-center threading.
Irregularity caused by pinning the mount.
Issue caused by soldering/welding the mount.
Either way, it has no effect on accuracy and is repeatable. I am looking forward to trying it on my 10.5"
I would be more than happy to send you a copy of your test target. Just e-mail me your serial number and i will send it over.
Hi Garin,
What are the test weapons & barrel profiles in different calibres that you use for testing your suppressors?
If your suppressor has X MOA shift at the factory with lets say on a short, heavy barreled bolt action test weapon and the customer actually uses with on a whole different type of weapon.
What I am saying is that your in factory procedures are fine, however the actual end user results might be quite different based on the particular weapon.
This is why we do not post a specific claim or test result in our advertisements, just give out our test results for a specific weapon type and suppressor combo, if customers inquire from us.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Ned Christiansen
11-05-12, 08:42
I expect a lot of good info from this thread and to me it is and will be very interesting getting the perspective from a country known for good guns, good ammo, and people who know how to make the most of both.
Jippo, the test you cited seems to give a good answer to a very basic question that I had never before seen actually put to the test (although no doubt it has). Thanks for the info.
Tuukka we have discussed this before on a different forum and welcome the chance to discuss what we do at Surefire again. We use a Jay Young rail gun with heavy profile barrels with tempture gauges and cold air induction for test fire. We use this set up as a QC measure to finalize that the build was done at the highest level. We are not testing how accurate a weapon is but rather testing to make sure the suppressor interface with the adapter is spot on, lock up, bore contricity, bearing surfaces and a host of other things that factor into a suppressor not affecting the weapons performance. Our goal is a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA continues to shoot 1/2 MOA suppressed. Holding extremely tight tolerances, EDM bore, multipul bearing surfaces, single point cut threads and such minimize any factor to a POI shift. We also have test suppressors that are used as control specimens that are subjected to accuracy and sound testing ever 1k rounds for 10k rounds.
Tuukka we have discussed this before on a different forum and welcome the chance to discuss what we do at Surefire again. We use a Jay Young rail gun with heavy profile barrels with tempture gauges and cold air induction for test fire. We use this set up as a QC measure to finalize that the build was done at the highest level. We are not testing how accurate a weapon is but rather testing to make sure the suppressor interface with the adapter is spot on, lock up, bore contricity, bearing surfaces and a host of other things that factor into a suppressor not affecting the weapons performance. Our goal is a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA continues to shoot 1/2 MOA suppressed. Holding extremely tight tolerances, EDM bore, multipul bearing surfaces, single point cut threads and such minimize any factor to a POI shift. We also have test suppressors that are used as control specimens that are subjected to accuracy and sound testing ever 1k rounds for 10k rounds.
So...
...while I may see a shift because of whatever reason, I should be able to swap any 556-212 onto my rifle and see the same shift, effectively no shift between suppressors of the same model. Is this correct? I look forward to testing for myself when my next suppressor is "out of jail".
Also, I am curious, if you test the suppressors on shorter than normal barrels, and if so, how they do on an SBR 10-11" in length regarding sound/accuracy degradation over time/rounds fired, if you use a brake of FH, etc.?
I am also curious how the new SOCOM can's do for POI shift, sound reduction, and that sort in comparison to the 556-212 and other "legacy" models.
Further noted, your website now shows legacy suppressors for sale, but without the new locking ring. Is this an oversite on advertising's part, or are the 556-212's no-longer offered with the new locking ring, or what's going on? Why are the old one's still being sold, what do they offer other than 1oz less weight that warrants this, etc. etc. etc.
What we do during demos is take a 5.56 AR weapon and have the user shoot 3-5 rounds at a target and then add a Mini, 212 model, 212 SB, 762-mini and a full size 762 model to the same rifle shooting at the same point as before for 3-5 rounds per suppressor model. Not only does it allow the customer to feel the different recoil impulse, hear the difference in sound but see that all the rounds are impacting the target the same as the non suppressed shots did. We will also do that using 3-5 of the same model to show the repeatability of our manufacturing. At certain demos we use one 7.62 suppressor on a 7.62, 6.8 and 5.56 weapon to show the interchangeability.
We don't have a big preference for the adapter. It is mostly what the customer is asking to see and we put on what they requested or called out for testing procedures.
We do a lot of testing outside of the rail gun for actual development and if it is a contract we use their weapons that are called out. Most 10-11" guns are hard pressed for 1 MOA or less at 100 yards. We still do the testing off a bench shooting non suppressed vs suppressed. Our goal is not to degrade the accuracy of what the weapon has and if we can improve it all the better.
All the Gen3 suppressors "legacy" have the new lock ring. When the web team put them back up on the web they didn't upload all the correct ones and are working to fix that issue.
I would be more than happy to send you a copy of your test target. Just e-mail me your serial number and i will send it over.
email inbound :cool:
Tuukka we have discussed this before on a different forum and welcome the chance to discuss what we do at Surefire again. We use a Jay Young rail gun with heavy profile barrels with tempture gauges and cold air induction for test fire. We use this set up as a QC measure to finalize that the build was done at the highest level. We are not testing how accurate a weapon is but rather testing to make sure the suppressor interface with the adapter is spot on, lock up, bore contricity, bearing surfaces and a host of other things that factor into a suppressor not affecting the weapons performance. Our goal is a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA continues to shoot 1/2 MOA suppressed. Holding extremely tight tolerances, EDM bore, multipul bearing surfaces, single point cut threads and such minimize any factor to a POI shift. We also have test suppressors that are used as control specimens that are subjected to accuracy and sound testing ever 1k rounds for 10k rounds.
Garin, I believe the last time we corresponded was regards to sound suppression protocols.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, this explains the your reasons for the procedure much better.
We do not test fire our suppressors, however the suppressor bodies are checked for alignment on a clocking bench after manufacturing and re-checked when the appropriate thread piece or fast attach mount is attached to the suppressor body.
So each and every product gets checked at least twice during the manufacturing process.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Garin,
Just browsed through your latest suppressor brochure, with the mention again that your all suppressors need to meet up to a max POI shift of 1 MOA.
How do you explain the larger shifts exhibited for example in this thread, some small issues in the thread & barrels causing the flash hiders to not be as true as at the factory or how can this be possible? ;)
Would you not say your brochure is slightly misleading?
My assumption here is that you portray this as part of your QC and customers should be knowledgeable enough to realize that real life results will vary?
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra suppressors
Garin,
Just browsed through your latest suppressor brochure, with the mention again that your all suppressors need to meet up to a max POI shift of 1 MOA.
How do you explain the larger shifts exhibited for example in this thread, some small issues in the thread & barrels causing the flash hiders to not be as true as at the factory or how can this be possible? ;)
Would you not say your brochure is slightly misleading?
My assumption here is that you portray this as part of your QC and customers should be knowledgeable enough to realize that real life results will vary?
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra suppressors
Tuukka, I agree with Garin that the method used to weld and pin my FH could well contribute to my 4MOA POI shift. It is pinned/welded on the bottom, and the shift is exactly to 6 o'clock.
However, I am going to have ANOTHER 556-212 suppressor in another few months when it clears. They are clones---same make/model.
Since they ALL exhibit 1MOA or less POI shift, I expect that when I swap one for the other, the POI shift will remain the same, to within 1 MOA. To me, this is a MUCH better test than POI shift alone, as there is no accounting for mount pinning, thread-concentricity, etc.
Now, if 1 suppressor shifts away from the other by more than 1 MOA, THEN! I will have to call BS. Until then, I think it's legit.
Tuukka you really should be careful making assumptions. There is an old saying about making them that you should look into.
My information is not misleading and you really should take the time to test my products if you are so worried about what we do here at SureFire rather than make unprofessional remarks and assumptions. I have yet to make disparaging comments about your suppressors or any other companies suppressors since that is not how we conduct business.
See the thing is Tuukka, I can back up all of our data and on any given week there many different agencies and military branches from around the world conducting their own testing and evaluation on my suppressors and we have not had one person come back to us and tell us that what we have accomplished was inaccurate.
Thanks,
Garin Lee
Surefire Suppressor Division
Tuuka,
It's pretty obvious that anything to do with Surefire suppressors is going to raise your ire and you are going to take shots at them.
Surefire has numerous contracts to provide suppressors to various agencies and I doubt that they were simply handed out without thorough testing.
Then we have people chiming in about their particular set up and why there is deviation between the claims by Surefire and their particular results without any type of contact BEFOREHAND as we often tell people to do. The reason is quite simple-and it explained in the forum rules.
In addition you want to call out a rep from the company online in public after reading their brochure and after this issue was addressed by him here publicly. That's not going to fly here. I also have to ask;
Exactly what first hand knowledge do you have of any Surefire suppressors? Have you tested and or used them extensively?
Is it possible that because you work in the suppressor industry in Finland that you may have an ax to grind?
Garin,
Just browsed through your latest suppressor brochure, with the mention again that your all suppressors need to meet up to a max POI shift of 1 MOA.
How do you explain the larger shifts exhibited for example in this thread, some small issues in the thread & barrels causing the flash hiders to not be as true as at the factory or how can this be possible? ;)
Would you not say your brochure is slightly misleading?
My assumption here is that you portray this as part of your QC and customers should be knowledgeable enough to realize that real life results will vary?
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra suppressors
Garin,
My point earlier in the thread was to ask a genuine, professional question in a respectful manner. To which I did not get a reply as I hoped. You did detail your test setup, which was nice from you.
The point behind my last question was: I have no reason to doubt or second guess the quality of you products, the way you check them in house and the results of the tests in house.
Describing in your brochure a part of the checkups that your product goes through, specifically a 1 MOA accuracy and 1 MOA POI shift, should instill confidence in the potential customer when he is looking at the different brands available.
What I was trying to ask was is this just a description of some of the standards that the product must meet up to or more of a indication / guarantee that a customer should not expect more than 1 MOA POI shift.
If I would be a U.S. customer, I might think that the specific part of the brochure leads to believe to a shift of 1 MOA at max every time, which based on my experience over 10 years in the industry is not always possible ;)
Nothing more, no axe to grind and as you know I do work in the industry. That is why I always post under my own name and company name, so that it is clear who is posting.
I usually also happily answer if other competitors post questions on us or the way we do things. I think it should be welcome that people in the industry talk, whether off line or on line.
Iraqgunz, yes I have examined and shot SureFire products a number of times.
Garin,
My point earlier in the thread was to ask a genuine, professional question in a respectful manner. To which I did not get a reply as I hoped. You did detail your test setup, which was nice from you.
The point behind my last question was: I have no reason to doubt or second guess the quality of you products, the way you check them in house and the results of the tests in house.
Describing in your brochure a part of the checkups that your product goes through, specifically a 1 MOA accuracy and 1 MOA POI shift, should instill confidence in the potential customer when he is looking at the different brands available.
What I was trying to ask was is this just a description of some of the standards that the product must meet up to or more of a indication / guarantee that a customer should not expect more than 1 MOA POI shift.
If I would be a U.S. customer, I might think that the specific part of the brochure leads to believe to a shift of 1 MOA at max every time, which based on my experience over 10 years in the industry is not always possible ;)
Nothing more, no axe to grind and as you know I do work in the industry. That is why I always post under my own name and company name, so that it is clear who is posting.
I usually also happily answer if other competitors post questions on us or the way we do things. I think it should be welcome that people in the industry talk, whether off line or on line.
Iraqgunz, yes I have examined and shot SureFire products a number of times.
Tuuka, I bought a 2011 Z06 a couple of years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed the car. Anyway, GM stated that it would perform 0-60 in the 3.7 second range.
Would they have been liable if I personally could not drive the car to a 0-60 in 3.7 seconds?
My point is, while the Surefire suppressor might well perform as such, the host rifle also plays a role, and that's not Surefire's problem.
Garin Lee has been nothing but transparent with me, and others who have contacted him.
Tuuka, I bought a 2011 Z06 a couple of years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed the car. Anyway, GM stated that it would perform 0-60 in the 3.7 second range.
Would they have been liable if I personally could not drive the car to a 0-60 in 3.7 seconds?
My point is, while the Surefire suppressor might well perform as such, the host rifle also plays a role, and that's not Surefire's problem.
Garin Lee has been nothing but transparent with me, and others who have contacted him.
Yes, this is exactly what I was getting at and thought about writing a car analogy.
My point was that is the wording of the ad a bit misleading or will every intelligent customer know that he might not see the same results.
Customers very often ask questions from us on competing products and I usually answer just what I know, have seen or have tested and in general being respectful of other brands.
So this goes to the marketing of other companies as well, it would be great to know the actual intent behind ads, so if customers ask or are not sure, I could say that this is what X company is saying in their ad.
Garin, are you coming to the IWA expo in March?, if you are, we could talk this over a pint of good German beer, I think my thoughts would convey much better face to face.
We are in hall 7A at the expo.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppresors
Yes, this is exactly what I was getting at and thought about writing a car analogy.
My point was that is the wording of the ad a bit misleading or will every intelligent customer know that he might not see the same results.
Customers very often ask questions from us on competing products and I usually answer just what I know, have seen or have tested and in general being respectful of other brands.
So this goes to the marketing of other companies as well, it would be great to know the actual intent behind ads, so if customers ask or are not sure, I could say that this is what X company is saying in their ad.
Garin, are you coming to the IWA expo in March?, if you are, we could talk this over a pint of good German beer, I think my thoughts would convey much better face to face.
We are in hall 7A at the expo.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppresors
It should be common sense that if 2 factors influence POI shift (suppressor and host) that if 1 of those 2 is out of tolerance, then the POI will not be as minimal as possible. Surefire has only assured the customer that the problem is not on THEIR end. The rest is up to you to use a quality host. That is not trickery or lies. Noone tried to tell me buying my Z06 would turn me into Randy Pobst. That's just ridiculous.
I hate to sound like a "fanboi", but Surefire's products have been flawless in my experience, and do exactly what I was told they would do. As an owner of multiple Surefire lights and 2 suppressors (one in-hand, one in purgatory), I feel obligated to share my experiences.
Yes my rifle does have a 4MOA shift to the 6 o'clock. Yes Garin Lee and Barry Dueck looked at this. They told me that welding/pinning could have caused this. I find this easy to believe. I have a 10.5" SBR that is currently pending. I will see how the POI shift is on it. It's a Noveske, and it's not pinned. I expect to see near 1MOA or less, and will reserve judgement until then. Further, I expect when I swap suppressors on my pinned gun, that the POI shift is identical between then (thus corroborating the 1 MOA claim, even though my weapon cannot do it, the suppressors should be equally affected, etc.).
The welding theory is interesting. Welding at 6 oclock if at all, would warp the mount in the direction of shift. So that would support the theory. I mean we'd have to be talking about the mount, because if the barrel warped it would have shift un-suppressed which wouldn't be noticed because the gun would be zeroed for that.
The other guy with a 16" Lija barrel with a 3.5MOA shift would be at odds with that theory though. I mean unless he had his mount welded on and 16" barrels don't require pinned muzzle devices.
Granted the Lija threads could be running out, but that seems unlikely in a high dollar barrel.
The more accurate theory IMO is weight added to the barrel causes it to bow very slightly and the rifle in turn shoots low.
I saw a picture or video of Surefire testing suppressors for shift on the rail gun somewhere. The barrel was 1.5" OD (like ~ the diameter of the can). Obviously the thicker the barrel, the less flex it will have. So that barrel is absent this issue that all normal carbine barrels are not exempt from.
The welding theory is interesting. Welding at 6 oclock if at all, would warp the mount in the direction of shift. So that would support the theory. I mean we'd have to be talking about the mount, because if the barrel warped it would have shift un-suppressed which wouldn't be noticed because the gun would be zeroed for that.
The other guy with a 16" Lija barrel with a 3.5MOA shift would be at odds with that theory though. I mean unless he had his mount welded on and 16" barrels don't require pinned muzzle devices.
Granted the Lija threads could be running out, but that seems unlikely in a high dollar barrel.
The more accurate theory IMO is weight added to the barrel causes it to bow very slightly and the rifle in turn shoots low.
I saw a picture or video of Surefire testing suppressors for shift on the rail gun somewhere. The barrel was 1.5" OD (like ~ the diameter of the can). Obviously the thicker the barrel, the less flex it will have. So that barrel is absent this issue that all normal carbine barrels are not exempt from.
Thing is, a barrel isn't some limp thing. It swings in a parabolic arc from the stress of firing. Attaching a weight to the end of it will not always cause it to hit low, because it influences that arc. The bullet exits somewhere during this jump-rope whipping of the barrel. It is a parabolic whipping because of the torque of the projectile on the rifling, or vis-versa depending on how you want to look at things. Thus, saying "added weight, bent the barrel down" is not really accurate or honest in assessing POI shift.
Just because Llija can make a great barrel does not mean that they can thread one perfectly for a suppressor. Not that they can't, but still, they are adept at making rifling, not threading barrels. There is an art to it.
Attaching a weight to the end of it will not always cause it to hit low, because it influences that arc.
No it won't. My M4-1000 gave me a shift up 1" at 100 yards with a 14.5 carbine.
No it won't. My M4-1000 gave me a shift up 1" at 100 yards with a 14.5 carbine.
Yep, just look at OP's first post. He got an upward shift, as well. Barrels whip in an ellipses, their static position is no indication of their dynamic position when the bullet exits.
Yep, just look at OP's first post. He got an upward shift, as well. Barrels whip in an ellipses, their static position is no indication of their dynamic position when the bullet exits.
Actually, my shift was downward. In the pic with the bullseye, the rounds in the 10 ring were w/o the can. The rounds above it were with the can, while aiming at the flourescent red dot.
I have not been able to do a comparison shoot with my SBR, and while the Lilja bbl is very nice, I don't pretend to know what the issue could be - if there even is an issue. The muzzle device is not welded in place. As an aside, discussing this topic (and showing the pics) to a former tier one sniper, his comment was "that's normal."
Tuukka, please don't get this thread locked. If you want to attack SF, start your own thread. Garin has been nothing but helpful and they even offered to trouble shoot my upper and the can together. I have complete faith that SF will support their products and customers. Thank you.
Ming_the_Merciless
01-24-13, 17:00
Actually, my shift was downward. In the pic with the bullseye, the rounds in the 10 ring were w/o the can. The rounds above it were with the can, while aiming at the flourescent red dot.
I have not been able to do a comparison shoot with my SBR, and while the Lilja bbl is very nice, I don't pretend to know what the issue could be - if there even is an issue. The muzzle device is not welded in place. As an aside, discussing this topic (and showing the pics) to a former tier one sniper, his comment was "that's normal."
Is the drop repeatable? If it is, at least your hold overs are consistent while shooting suppressed.
El Cid, my point in the questions was of course not to get this thread locked and my posts above should reflect that.
Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Larry Vickers
01-25-13, 07:45
How about someone weigh in who has more experience over a longer period of time with Surefire cans than anyone on this board - me ?
I have used Surefire cans for a number of years with excellent results- I have seen zero shift issues with them that I am sure are beyond their control; a close personal friend of mine had one that drove him nuts because of it
We all know it is most likely due to variations in the muzzle threading, etc. - all that passes the common sense test
But also my friend Tuukka is right; Surefire's advertising can be misleading- I have seen it before with their whitelights when they advertised incapacitating a bad guy with white light and I have seen it with their suppressors- we all know that is the nature of advertising in general in this and every other country ; play up the positive, bury or downplay the negative
Surefire makes a good product - I have several and my history using and promoting them goes back a long way; I saved their ass with a critical early USMC customer which could have been a make or break for the young suppressor division at the time; they survived it and thrived - good for them as I like their product
But I won't give them a pass on potentially misleading advertising either- Tuukka is right but it may have gotten lost in translation from Finnish to English ;-)
Call it the way it is and no one will have any issues
Anyone have a problem with anything I said can PM me or fell free to contact Surefire to throw me under the bus; when you find someone who has used more of their suppressors and highlighted them on TV more than I have you let me know
Yeah I am bit bowed up; Tuukka is a friend of mine and everyone needs to chill out a bit, including Iraqgunz, because what he is saying is basically true
LAV
I will take this up with Barry later today and advise the marketing dept. that a few people are questioning the wording of the new suppressor catalog. What we are conveying and stating is that our test fire procedures of <1 MOA shift and group size as a final step in the build QC. We also do have a header in bold "Minimal & Consistent Point-of-Impact Shift" at the page that highlights what we do here to insure we are building the best product possible. It is also showing the new acoustic target system we now use for the test fire. We are not hiding anything here and even have a video showing the procedures of the test fire. We take a large amount of pride to ensure we are absolutely building the best system. We know the customer has a decent size investment when they select our suppressor so we will go beyond what most will in a suppressor build to ensure the best performance.
There is no writing about a “guarantee” that any weapons platform/ammo will produce the same results nor will we ever make that claim. It is stating that “typically” (word is used in all writing) most users will experience “minimal and consistent point-of-impact”. Again I will ask for a note to be applied so no one can take the context of the information and misconstrue it. Something like this.
“*SureFire does not make any guarantee to the end user that their weapon system/ammo suppressed will have less than 1 MOA group size or shift”
The threading / adapter issue cannot be over emphasized. I run AAC cans with remarkable accuracy results even when not perfectly locked up. I have 5 AAC cans.
I had one mount that threw bullets all over the place. It was not a consistent shift. Freakin weird. It wasn't until I moved it to a second gun that I realized it. The mount was the problem here, but note that the threading on the barrel can do the same.
I'm surprised I didn't get a baffle strike. A lot of factors at play here in POI and accuracy. And of course a few lemons get past even the best QC. Just a fact of human and mechanical error.
I am running a 762ss suppressor on both my 6.5cm, and .308 lmt mws barrels.
Each of my barrels shows a shift within 1" at 100yds. I have found the key is to ensure the lock ring is as tight as possible when I install the suppressor. I haven't had a chance to test my 212 surefire yet, but will try to do that in the next month or so when I can make the range again.
Anyway, here is some pics showing the shift on my 6.5cm mws barrel. This is the second time out with the suppressor, and since then I have verified multiple times this shift is consistent. I don't claim this to be a scientific test, but I am pleased.
Unsuppressed 7 rounds:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/IMAG0524.jpg
Suppressed 3 rounds:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/IMAG0523.jpg
I will take this up with Barry later today and advise the marketing dept. that a few people are questioning the wording of the new suppressor catalog. What we are conveying and stating is that our test fire procedures of <1 MOA shift and group size as a final step in the build QC. We also do have a header in bold "Minimal & Consistent Point-of-Impact Shift" at the page that highlights what we do here to insure we are building the best product possible. It is also showing the new acoustic target system we now use for the test fire. We are not hiding anything here and even have a video showing the procedures of the test fire. We take a large amount of pride to ensure we are absolutely building the best system. We know the customer has a decent size investment when they select our suppressor so we will go beyond what most will in a suppressor build to ensure the best performance.
There is no writing about a “guarantee” that any weapons platform/ammo will produce the same results nor will we ever make that claim. It is stating that “typically” (word is used in all writing) most users will experience “minimal and consistent point-of-impact”. Again I will ask for a note to be applied so no one can take the context of the information and misconstrue it. Something like this.
“*SureFire does not make any guarantee to the end user that their weapon system/ammo suppressed will have less than 1 MOA group size or shift”
Hi Garin,
I appreciate you weighing in and just want to reiterate that I was not questioning your ad so to say, more that people might understand it differently than what you guys intended.
If you do wind up at the IWA, the first pint is on me ;)
Take Care!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
The more "tactical" the subject matter, the better the Vagina fights!
I remember the old Pussy fights between the idiots at AAC, and the slap heads at Gemtec. :haha:
Well, an update on my situation, my 212 suppressor has identical 4MOA shift on both of my rifles (one a pinned 14.5" Noveske with a pinned 212a mount, the other a 10.5" Noveske with 212a mount).
Surefire currently has the suppressor but I should get it back next week. They have been nothing but awesome. I look forward to seeing if it's better when I get it back. 1 week turn-around door-to-door is amazing!
domestique
02-14-13, 07:07
That is great to hear about their CS.
I know Garin has been awesome at answering all of my PMs.
1 week turn-around (door-step to door-step, exactly). My Suppressor is back. I will test it Monday. The bore was re-EDM'ed to spec, and all bearing surfaces checked and a print-out of the test target was included.
domestique
02-15-13, 14:48
1 week turn-around (door-step to door-step, exactly). My Suppressor is back. I will test it Monday. The bore was re-EDM'ed to spec, and all bearing surfaces checked and a print-out of the test target was included.
Awesome, interested to see if there is any change.
Awesome, interested to see if there is any change.
Yes. I will likely become an AAC customer for a suppressor or three.
Surefire has been nothing but awesome to deal with, I'm just not getting the kind of performance I want, and would like to try another flavor of kool-aid.
This first target is the new one I fired Monday after getting my
suppressor back. The bold gray lines are 0.5" apart, and the light gray
one's are 0.25" apart. This was fired at 25 yards using PMC XTAC M193.
http://i50.tinypic.com/15sa1q9.jpg
This target is the one fired before sending the suppressor in, same ammo/distance, but I used a T1 optic and the lighting was brighter, and I had not shot in a while, opposed to the second groups when the suppressor returned, which I felt more relaxed/settled for.
http://i50.tinypic.com/295zj37.jpg
Both cases show the groups opening up with the suppressor added, as well. Fired on separate days. Bottom groups are suppressed. Rifle has a 100% factory Noveske built upper 10.5" upper with FA212a mount, as installed at Noveske.
Thing is, a barrel isn't some limp thing. It swings in a parabolic arc from the stress of firing. Attaching a weight to the end of it will not always cause it to hit low, because it influences that arc. The bullet exits somewhere during this jump-rope whipping of the barrel. It is a parabolic whipping because of the torque of the projectile on the rifling, or vis-versa depending on how you want to look at things. Thus, saying "added weight, bent the barrel down" is not really accurate or honest in assessing POI shift.
This. If you add a weight to the end of the barrel it will:
1. dampen the vibration due increased mass.
2. change the frequency of the vibration
Barrel can have a 4MOA vibration and .5MOA accuracy. If the barrel vibrates repeatably from shot to shot and the projectile leaves the barrel in the exact same phase of the vibration it will hit the exact same spot regardless of the vibration. After adding extra weight it will not, regardless of the quality of the weight or it's attachment. This is due to the mass slowing down and dampening the vibration.
I'm not a physics major, so take it with a pinch of salt. But this is how I understand it.
Yes. I will likely become an AAC customer for a suppressor or three.
Surefire has been nothing but awesome to deal with, I'm just not getting the kind of performance I want, and would like to try another flavor of kool-aid.
In looking at the two groups the accuracy gain or loss is so small it is really difficult to draw that correlation at least from these targets.
What is more interesting to me is that shift is 1.3" at 25 prior to going out and 1.75 after coming back.
Have you shot further than 25? Sometimes optics that are supposed to be "parallax free" actually have parallax at close distances. I find it very hard to zero at close range like 25 because it's not uncommon to fire a group, get up, get down and fire a group and have it impact in a different POI by .5" or so at 25.
Given that happens, any conclusion drawn from group dispersion would be of limited value given the impact of parallax at 25 on most optics.
From what I've seen Surefire if anything has the better system. There are plenty of AAC threads about mount rattle, slight accuracy loss, as much as 4MOA shift etc so it would be hard to call AAC clearly superior except in terms of purchase price.
In looking at the two groups the accuracy gain or loss is so small it is really difficult to draw that correlation at least from these targets.
What is more interesting to me is that shift is 1.3" at 25 prior to going out and 1.75 after coming back.
Have you shot further than 25? Sometimes optics that are supposed to be "parallax free" actually have parallax at close distances. I find it very hard to zero at close range like 25 because it's not uncommon to fire a group, get up, get down and fire a group and have it impact in a different POI by .5" or so at 25.
Given that happens, any conclusion drawn from group dispersion would be of limited value given the impact of parallax at 25 on most optics.
From what I've seen Surefire if anything has the better system. There are plenty of AAC threads about mount rattle, slight accuracy loss, as much as 4MOA shift etc so it would be hard to call AAC clearly superior except in terms of purchase price.
I have not, I am limited to a 25 yard range right now. I hope to change that this week. I am getting 7+ MOA shift at 25 yards. I understand what you mean about paralax, but please note the group un-suppressed and where it is placed. I'm happy enough with my shooting for M193. Group looks relatively centered on target.
Accuracy correlation? Nah, not too worried about .25 moa. The 7+ MOA shift is more what gets me. About twice what you say AAC is doing in a worst-case scenario.
Well, I lied. I just bought a 7.62SOCOM. I am going 300blk.
I have not, I am limited to a 25 yard range right now. I hope to change that this week. I am getting 7+ MOA shift at 25 yards. I understand what you mean about paralax, but please note the group un-suppressed and where it is placed. I'm happy enough with my shooting for M193. Group looks relatively centered on target.
Accuracy correlation? Nah, not too worried about .25 moa. The 7+ MOA shift is more what gets me. About twice what you say AAC is doing in a worst-case scenario.
It is surprising that you sent it in to be "fixed" and it came back with worse shift than before (If I'm reading your post above correctly). At 7MOA, I would expect you to be able to look down the bore and see alignment issues. That's quite a bit of shift.
Did you try gorilla tightening the lock ring? I've heard guys find the cans don't lock up tight sometimes until the lock ring is tightened one extra click on the ratchet system.
It is surprising that you sent it in to be "fixed" and it came back with worse shift than before (If I'm reading your post above correctly). At 7MOA, I would expect you to be able to look down the bore and see alignment issues. That's quite a bit of shift.
Did you try gorilla tightening the lock ring? I've heard guys find the cans don't lock up tight sometimes until the lock ring is tightened one extra click on the ratchet system.
It's plenty tight with a normal, firm grip.
domestique
03-04-13, 08:04
Well, I lied. I just bought a 7.62SOCOM. I am going 300blk.
RC or mini. Still waiting for my two to come in.
RC or mini. Still waiting for my two to come in.
RC, it's what my dealer has in stock, and I saw how hard the 762SD owned the N6 in suppressing the AAC round in testing, so I don't think that more volume will hurt me in the least. WIth Surefire's new gas flow, and claims of killing FRP, it should be full of win. Now I need a suitable upper. Not now, not tomorrow, but in the next 8 months.
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