View Full Version : So snipers have to let civilians "make" them
Alpha Sierra
02-10-08, 11:22
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23086927
The modern, politically correct military bureaucracy is a disgrace. WHY would anyone sign up to serve under these conditions is beyond me. :mad:
We had guys not pull the trigger on insurgents laying in IEDs because they were more afraid of being zapped by our own command for killing an Iraq than they were of IEDs.
dwhitehorne
02-10-08, 12:29
I guess the Fog of War does not exist in the courtroom and it sure is easy to second guess decisions after the fact. David
variablebinary
02-10-08, 14:22
sad. I would have fired too.
Very troubling. Hope the appeal goes better.
C'yotecaller
02-10-08, 20:36
You guys need to read the full story. I support are men in uniform 100%, but he lyed like crazy. It wasn't just the fact that he shot the guy (which yes, I can fully understand). But they placed an AK by his side to make it look like an attack, lied to all of the internal investigators and tried to cover the hole thing up. I think if he would have just come clean right from the start and say "Hey, we messed up. This civiy stumbled onto our postition and we panicked and shot him" He would have been alot better off and probably just got a slap on the rist. The coverup and lying is what did him in.
You guys need to read the full story. I support are men in uniform 100%, but he lyed like crazy. It wasn't just the fact that he shot the guy (which yes, I can fully understand). But they placed an AK by his side to make it look like an attack, lied to all of the internal investigators and tried to cover the hole thing up. I think if he would have just come clean right from the start and say "Hey, we messed up. This civiy stumbled onto our postition and we panicked and shot him" He would have been alot better off and probably just got a slap on the rist. The coverup and lying is what did him in.
+1, it may have been a good shoot but I'll side with the evidence and jurors on this one that seemed to have suggested otherwise.
You guys need to read the full story. I support are men in uniform 100%, but he lyed like crazy. It wasn't just the fact that he shot the guy (which yes, I can fully understand). But they placed an AK by his side to make it look like an attack, lied to all of the internal investigators and tried to cover the hole thing up. I think if he would have just come clean right from the start and say "Hey, we messed up. This civiy stumbled onto our postition and we panicked and shot him" He would have been alot better off and probably just got a slap on the rist. The coverup and lying is what did him in.
I completely agree. No malice intent by the exhausted, startled men, just an accident. They should have just been honest, but maybe that same exhaustion played a role in their poor decision making.
That said, I know that if I stumbled across a bunch of sleeping soldiers in a war zone and was not one of them, I would move on and not sit there like an idiot. Maybe he was up to no good, who knows.
You guys need to read the full story. I support are men in uniform 100%, but he lyed like crazy. It wasn't just the fact that he shot the guy (which yes, I can fully understand). But they placed an AK by his side to make it look like an attack, lied to all of the internal investigators and tried to cover the hole thing up. I think if he would have just come clean right from the start and say "Hey, we messed up. This civiy stumbled onto our postition and we panicked and shot him" He would have been alot better off and probably just got a slap on the rist. The coverup and lying is what did him in.
They lied out of fear of getting disciplined anyway.
I can't say what is right and wrong, or what I would have done in that situation. But, this is very interesting in view of the Marcus Luttrell story . . .
* * * * * * *
He knew his vote would sign their death warrant
Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell tells of his extraordinary survival in Afghanistan
By John Springer
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 12:43 p.m. ET, Tues., June. 12, 2007
"It was the stupidest, most Southern-fried, lame-brained decision I ever made in my life to vote to let them go ... I actually cast a vote that I knew would sign our death warrant."
-- Marcus Luttrell, from "Lone Survivor"
Not a day goes by that newly retired Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell does not think about the two goat herders he and three comrades encountered on a late June day in 2005 while searching Afghanistan's border with Pakistan for an elusive Taliban leader.
Stealth is the tradecraft of the elite special forces soldiers, and that element of surprise was compromised when the herders approached the unit, Luttrell said during an exclusive interview Tuesday on TODAY.
The team members had to make a quick decision: Kill the herders, or let them go and risk giving away their position to the Taliban.
The men of Seal Team 10 made the decision that comported to the rules of engagement, but it ended up costing the lives of Luttrell's best friend, two others and 16 more servicemen who tried to rescue them. They let the herders go.
Luttrell, who collaborated on a new book about his buddies' heroism and his own harrowing escape, told TODAY host Matt Lauer that he doesn't have "survivor's guilt" because he lost a lot on that mountain as well.
"I died on that mountain too, sir," Luttrell said. "I left a part of myself up there. I think about it every day. There's not a day that goes by ...."
He let the sentence hang there, as emotions swept over him. He remained composed and told the story.
‘A bad situation’
Seal Team 10 was searching for a Taliban leader who was holed up in an Afghan village near their position when they came across the goat herders and a flock of about 100 goats.
"We knew it was a bad situation. Anytime we get compromised, it's not part of our job," the Texas born and raised Luttrell said with a distinctive drawl. "We pulled them off to the side, sat them down, put security on top of them. Then one by one, we started talking to each other and decided what were going to do with them."
Executing the Afghanis would have been illegal, under U.S. law, and could have exposed the American soldiers to prosecution back at home. The alternative was to let them go, and risk tipping their hand to the enemy.
And that's exactly what happened.
Within a short period of time, the unit was surrounded. Taliban fighters encircled them, and had the advantage of numbers and higher ground. The unit was out-manned 80 or 100 to four.
"It was game on then. I took the first shot," Luttrell recalled.
The Taliban started picking off members of the unit quickly. Luttrell's best friend, Lt. Mike Murphy, basically sealed his fate when he ran out in the open to use a cell phone to summon a rescue team. He and two other unit members died that day, as did all 16 aboard a U.S. helicopter destroyed while trying to get to the men.
Luttrell crawled some seven miles to a village and begged villagers to help him. They agreed, and hid him from the Taliban by moving him from house to house, at the same time nursing his wounds.
"They weren't going to give me up," Luttrell said, explaining that there is an ancient custom in the region that villagers must aid people requesting sanctuary.
Eventually, Luttrell made out of the village and back to the U.S. He paused when Lauer asked him if he still regrets his vote to let the herders live.
"Every day. Every day," said Luttrell, who was awarded the Navy Cross for heroism last year. "It would be worth me doing the time in prison if my buddies were still alive, if that answers your question."
Luttrell's memoir, "Lone Survivor: An Eye Witness Account of Operation Redwing and the Lost Heroes of SEAL Team 10," was released to bookstores Tuesday, a day after he was discharged from the Navy. You can read an excerpt here.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19189482
* * * * * * *
Joe Mamma
+1, +1, +1. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but never, never, NEVER try a cover-up. Most of the high profile incidents in my branch of service involve someone trying to pull a fast one on top of shooting the wrong people or whatever. I understand the feeling of being afraid of getting slammed, but you deal your case a critical blow when you lie. Easy for me to say, but no less the truth.
Most cases of innocent people being civilly prosecuted or sent to prison, as you read the story, at some point they always sign a confession or say they did it, out of stupidity, fraud or coercion.
In this situation, this has screwed the pooch for everyone, causing some valuable TTP's to go out the window because people are abusing them.
As to the SEAL team story, and this is TOTALLY hindsight quarterbacking out the wazoo, I wouldn't have shot those people either. It resulted in a disaster and looking back their lives would have been a more than easy trade for all the servicemembers that died later - but they didn't know that at the time. You shoot them, then you have to decide to report it or not. If you report it you are going to be in hot water, no knowing where the rulings and punishments will stop. If you choose not to report it you and those men are bound together and will have it hanging over you the rest of your lives. Maybe a big deal, maybe not. I think this type of thing would have been winked at in WWII or Korea and maybe Vietnam, but today, no way.
The Bravo Two Zero story was similar. They probably could have made it across the border as a team - but they would have had to leave a trail of dead teenage sheepherders so they decided against it (w/ some dissenting voices) and they got compromised and the rest is history.
While sleep deprivatio played a key role in this unforunate incident. Covering it up was not the right way of going about it. Never lie, or cover up the truth. be honest and tell it as it happens, just hope that a jury of your peers would agree with what you said.
I wasn't there, but after the smokes clears you have a duty to take responsibilty for your actions. the story states his commander ordered him to kill the civilian, but we all know, you don't do something unless you personally know it's the right thing to do.
I have to say that I am impressed
I have had my A$$ handed to me for suggesting that a cop/soldier screwed himself when he decided to lie/cover up an incident
Once you are caught in a lie how can you expect to be believed about anything:confused:
It sounds like a good shoot...as in an accident
I hope the punishment ends up fitting the crime
But he dug his hole..now he has to sit in it
The modern, politically correct military bureaucracy is a disgrace. WHY would anyone sign up to serve under these conditions is beyond me. :mad:
So not committing murder, is politically correct? War or not, you do not have the right to take an innocent persons life. For any reason.
Ya, you may get discovered. Get the **** over it. You volunteered to join the military, which means you volunteered to go to war. War's dangerous. That’s why you get cool guns, plates, and gear. If you don't have the stomach to do your job and not murder innocent people you do not need to be there. Frankly you don't need to be anywhere.
I try to stay out of general topics, but the thought of some dude in the military, or anyone else for that matter, reading this and thinking heinous acts are somehow acceptable is too much for me to accept.
So not committing murder, is politically correct? War or not, you do not have the right to take an innocent persons life. For any reason.
Ya, you may get discovered. Get the **** over it. You volunteered to join the military, which means you volunteered to go to war. War's dangerous. That’s why you get cool guns, plates, and gear. If you don't have the stomach to do your job and not murder innocent people you do not need to be there. Frankly you don't need to be anywhere.
I try to stay out of general topics, but the thought of some dude in the military, or anyone else for that matter, reading this and thinking heinous acts are somehow acceptable is too much for me to accept.
I think it's interesting that people just assume the dead guy was "innocent" . . .
Joe Mamma
So not committing murder, is politically correct? War or not, you do not have the right to take an innocent persons life. For any reason.
Ya, you may get discovered. Get the **** over it. You volunteered to join the military, which means you volunteered to go to war. War's dangerous. That’s why you get cool guns, plates, and gear. If you don't have the stomach to do your job and not murder innocent people you do not need to be there. Frankly you don't need to be anywhere.
I try to stay out of general topics, but the thought of some dude in the military, or anyone else for that matter, reading this and thinking heinous acts are somehow acceptable is too much for me to accept.
"Innocent people" is a very relative term. It's not like they were picking off some shepherd from 200 yards away. They were camped out when this guy stumbled upon their position and stuck around long enough to get caught. I am not condoning the actions of these soldiers but there are more factors at play and it's not so black and white.
In a situation where the lives of your fellow soldiers (as well as yours) are jeopardized a decision has to be made and lived with. Sure, the guy might have just wandered back to his home and never mentioned it...or he might have gone back and informed his buddies who might come back in force and take out those soldiers. We'll never know, but that soldier made his decision (maybe not "consciously", according to his account) and now he will have to live with the consequences.
If you believe that the life of a potential threat is worth more than the lives of a team of our soldiers then that is too much for me to accept.
Again, maybe the guy wouldn't have posed a threat, but maybe he would have. In the Marcus Luttrell story, I think the lives of two "innocent" shepherds is a small price to pay if it keeps 19 good soldiers from getting killed. I know, a different story with different circumstances, but it's the same principle with a different decision being made and a different outcome.
Again, I am not condoning the actions of these soldiers, I just think that within the circumstances of these events the initial action taken is understandable. Not necessarily justified. The cover up is absolutely unacceptable. If you make a decision, own up to the consequences and live with it. Marcus Luttrell believes it would have been a fair trade to have two dead shepherds and spend his life in prison if it meant that those 19 soldiers were still alive.
I by no means think the civilian was innocent or guilty, I trully don't know what his intentions were. I dont think we will ever know now, and i understand the fog of war, having served in the gulf myself (1991). What I will say, is you're asleep in a hide, you wake up to find some person hovering over your group, in a split second you have to make a life altering decision "Do I shoot, or not"?
What matters most in this isnt whether his intent and decision was wrong or right, in the end, he lied about it, if he had any doubt, you dont squeeze the trigger. And if you DO make that descision, you live with it for the rest of your life. You DONT lie about what happened.
Honesty and Integrity are things NO ONE can ever take from you, but once you lose them, you can never get them back !
I by no means think the civilian was innocent or guilty, I trully don't know what his intentions were. I dont think we will ever know now, and i understand the fog of war, having served in the gulf myself (1991). What I will say, is you're asleep in a hide, you wake up to find some person hovering over your group, in a split second you have to make a life altering decision "Do I shoot, or not"?
What matters most in this isnt whether his intent and decision was wrong or right, in the end, he lied about it, if he had any doubt, you dont squeeze the trigger. And if you DO make that descision, you live with it for the rest of your life. You DONT lie about what happened.
Honesty and Integrity are things NO ONE can ever take from you, but once you lose them, you can never get them back !
I agree with you.
"Innocent people" is a very relative term. It's not like they were picking off some shepherd from 200 yards away.
They admit he was not attacking them. They killed him. That is murder.
Guys, your defense of them is not patriotic. Patriotism is upholding a standard. They did not, and you are not.
If Luttrel's team, would have killed them that would have been murdering innocent people. The fact that the team was good guys has nothing to do with it. A warrior (a true warrior), and a man, does not under any circumstance's harm another for fear of his own safety. Sadly, as this thread shows, we lack both these days.....
They admit he was not attacking them. They killed him. That is murder.
Guys, your defense of them is not patriotic. Patriotism is upholding a standard. They did not, and you are not.
If Luttrel's team, would have killed them that would have been murdering innocent people. The fact that the team was good guys has nothing to do with it. A warrior (a true warrior), and a man, does not under any circumstance's harm another for fear of his own safety. Sadly, as this thread shows, we lack both these days.....
Do you own a firearm? If so, why? If it is for self-defense then I suggest you either A. Sell you gun, or B. Quit being a hypocrite because the only reason for having a firearm for self-defense is to harm another for fear of your own safety.
If you believe that the life of a potential threat is worth more than the lives of a team of our soldiers then that is too much for me to accept.
There are no "potential" threat. There are threats, and there aren't. There is no inbetween.
For me, it ain't "our soldiers". It's me and my teamates. Yes, my life is worth an innocent person. My life isn't the most important thing. My teams lives aren't the most important thing. If your life is the #1 priority, maybe you should find another vocation. I hear Mcdonalds is hiring. It's probably not very dangerous there...
There are no "potential" threat. There are threats, and there aren't. There is no inbetween.
For me, it ain't "our soldiers". It's me and my teamates. Yes, my life is worth an innocent person. My life isn't the most important thing. My teams lives aren't the most important thing. If your life is the #1 priority, maybe you should find another vocation. I hear Mcdonalds is hiring. It's probably not very dangerous there...
Whatever you say, pal. If you really are what you say you are on the Internet then I sincerely do thank you for your service. I also sincerely hope that you never have to make the decision between taking an innocent life and risking the life of you and your team, and if you do, I hope that you make the right one and the one that you can live with for the rest of your life.
I would go to McDonald's and get an application but I hear it's dangerous outside...I think I'll stay on my comfortable, safe couch instead.
Do you own a firearm? If so, why? If it is for self-defense then I suggest you either A. Sell you gun, or B. Quit being a hypocrite because the only reason for having a firearm for self-defense is to harm another for fear of your own safety.
While I do own a firearm, I do not own a firearm for self-defense. There is no hypocrisy here. My job is to kill people. It, however, is not to kill innocent people.
About my statement- It is called context. I was quite obviously speaking of "harm another- innocent- for fear of your own safety."
I will not disscuss this further here. There is no argument. One soldiers life if not worth more then an innocent persons life, even if that person is not "one of us."
While I do own a firearm, I do not own a firearm for self-defense. There is no hypocrisy here. My job is to kill people. It, however, is not to kill innocent people.
About my statement- It is called context. I was quite obviously speaking of "harm another- innocent- for fear of your own safety."
I will not disscuss this further here. There is no argument. One soldiers life if not worth more then an innocent persons life, even if that person is not "one of us."
I am finished as well. I hope, if anything, you see that I value the safety and success of our soldiers (that's you, right?). I still believe that the issue is not black and white, at least not for me. If that makes me less of a man, then, well...so be it. Hopefully I will never have to find out which decision I would really make in those circumstances...I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
McDonalds you say ? Hmmm, I recall I responded to a shooting in McDonalds parking lot not but a few months ago here, and there were three young males who had been shot while sitting in their cars eating, not bothering anyone. At least 4 seperate witnesses stated two young men armed with handguns just walked up to the car and open fired, hitting all three with non life threatening wounds.
We caught all of the bad guys as they ran from the scene, when asked why he did this, his reply "The car was RED and we thought they were gang members from Myrtle Beach."
So going to McDonalds doesn't seem to be the safest place.
And the mall parking lot behind McDonalds should be safe then too...Right ?
Last week, a group of four males approached a group of other males standing around their trucks and one of them asked if someone had a cigarette. They said No. The group of four males walked away, then about 30 feet away, one of them turned, produced a Piece of crap Hi Point 9mm handgun and fired four times, striking the pick up truck, once in the fender, once in the door and two rounds through the windshield, RIGHT BETWEEN THE HEADS of the TWO people sitting inside.
All four were caught 20 minutes later, their ages 15, 15, 16 and 18, asked why the 18 year old did it " They didnt give me what I wanted "
So we seem to live in such a "safe" society, why would I need to carry a gun with me ???
The real suprise to me is that a Hi-Point actually fired 4 times without jamming. :p
I carry off duty 24/7 would not go to church without my handgun ! My EX -Girlfriend told me she was uncomfortable with me carrying a gun all the time, needless to say, you noticed I said EX Girlfriend
Better to have something and not need it, then need it and not have it !
I would rather be judged by twelve, then carried by six !
Dylan_Porter
02-17-08, 01:50
Given the situation the shooting seems justifiable. However, he screwed up by lying about it and covering it up. If he had just left as is and told the truth I think he would have been fine.
I am finished as well. I hope, if anything, you see that I value the safety and success of our soldiers (that's you, right?). I still believe that the issue is not black and white, at least not for me. If that makes me less of a man, then, well...so be it. Hopefully I will never have to find out which decision I would really make in those circumstances...I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
The troops fell asleep on OP outside the wire -- incredibly stupid
A local was meandering around and found their hide.
He was not hostile
How ****ing black and white do you want it?
I've got no problem killing people that deserve it, but the difference in them and us is that we are selective about who we target.
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