View Full Version : France to ban homework due to inequality
Lowest common denominator?
http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=17503056
The_War_Wagon
10-22-12, 07:57
Probably a "fairness" move for the Mohammedans, since the males can't count past 21 (think about it... :blink: ), and the females can't count at all... :rolleyes:
montanadave
10-22-12, 08:23
As ridiculous as this seems at first blush, there is some basis for such a policy.
Consider the following: The teacher runs through the lesson plan, hands out a stack of worksheets, and tells the kids to do them at home and bring them back to be graded tomorrow. Kid "A" goes home to a stable, clean home, gets a meal, and has parents set aside a place, time, and their participation to see that the kid gets his work done. Kid "B" wanders home to some shit hole where he wonders whether he's going to get to eat that night if and when his folks show up.
Which kid has a better shot at getting the homework done? Does the teacher have a clue regarding the circumstances either kid is dealing with? And which kid is going to succeed and which is going to fail?
There needs to be time allotted during the school day for teachers to actually see what kids can do. I had a college calculus professor that still made us go to the blackboards and work on problems. Believe me, you could copy somebody else's homework but it didn't count for **** all when you were standing at the board with your dick in your hand.
As ridiculous as this seems at first blush, there is some basis for such a policy.
Quite so, but then there is also a basis for Communism. Having spent some time in a classroom I can 100% tell you that unless you are willing to extend the school year and school day there is t enoug time in the day to both cover the material, do small repetitions to validate understanding and complete the needed reps for a thorough comprehension of the topic. Your kids would need to become wards of the state and live at school. If we as a society are willing to accept that is takes thousands of reps to master throwing a bloody football through a tire reliably, then we also need to understand that mastering complex concepts like calculus or algebra or even reading take high number of repetitions as well.
Dumbing everyone down to the welfare rat level cause they don't have the support needed to master their education is not a good idea.
montanadave
10-22-12, 09:05
I don't profess to have a ready solution to our nation's educational shortfalls. There are epic levels of fail across the board, whether it be the schools, the administration, poor parenting, poverty, overcrowding, budgetary constraints ... the list goes on and on.
But I do believe the two of the most critical elements are good teachers focusing on basic reading, writing, and fundamental math skills coupled with strong parental involvement. Without those two ingredients, the rest is just pissing in the wind.
And the most important skill is reading. Everything else follows.
ETA: I'd love to chat all day, but the snows a comin' and I gotta go put a door on my outhouse. :suicide:
As a national policy, it is kind of dumb.
However, I personally don't think that homework should be graded and count towards your grade, and should be optional. Homework should be given in order to help people see how well a student understands the issues being discussed. It should be diagnostic. If someone has a hard time with something, homework can be used to catch that and provide extra help. If someone already understands the issues, they should not be forced to do mindless work. They should be able to choose that.
I feel that school, at least in the older grades and in post secondary, should give lots of homework, correct it but not use it as a grade, and should only use maybe a mid term, and final exam, plus any projects or papers or reports that are assigned, for a grade. The grade should come AFTER the learning/teaching has been accomplished and any remedial help or other help has been given, as determined to be needed by homework and quizzes. The grading should be done AFTER to see what was actually learned.
I went to grade school for the first 4 years in Arizona, in the early 70s. The school was quite progressive in beliefs. They assigned no homework for any classes. They had certain methodologies and programs in place. I learned really fast and well in this environment. They let each kid go at the speed they could handle through the curriculum, for example, and worked with each kid. After 4th grade, we moved to Massachusetts, where my dad had a new job working for DEC. The new school used many of the same curriculums, but implemented them differently, and in some cases I was a complete whole year ahead of where the same age kids in the new school were in the curriculum. Especially in the subject "Reading"/"Language Arts." The new school was very traditional -- lots of homework, large group lessons, etc. I learned a lot in the new school but it was a lot slower than what I was used to.
As a funny aside. My brother only went to 1st grade in Arizona before we moved to Massachusetts. He, of course, had never done homework since the school did not believe in it, in Arizona. But he had a playmate, a girl across the street in Arizona, who had been at a private Catholic school. At the first parent-teacher conference in Massachusetts, his teacher, who was Catholic, burst out laughing at what he had exclaimed in class when the teacher had assigned homework. Upon hearing the homework assignments in his new 2nd grade class, he had exclaimed: "Homework! Only Catholics have homework!" That was his experience so far, as during the school year, when he went to the neighbors to play, the girl always had homework to do and couldn't come out to play.
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Just the humble opinion of a husband of a teacher:
School should be year-long with uniforms and no homework.
DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 11:33
I think this is a good idea.
Homework is a bad idea - it is what I would call a "time waster."
When a kid goes home, they shouldn't have a pile of work to do from school, but rather, they should be able to help around the house, or do something they are interested in...
"Homework! Only Catholics have homework!"
My son in first grade was disappointed with the light homework load, so we went to Barnes & Noble and got him a math textbook, and now he does 20 min of math homework per night in addition to whatever lightweight homework the teachers assign.
Dumbing everyone down to the welfare rat level cause they don't have the support needed to master their education is not a good idea.
I completely agree.
I think this is a good idea.
Homework is a bad idea - it is what I would call a "time waster."
When a kid goes home, they shouldn't have a pile of work to do from school, but rather, they should be able to help around the house, or do something they are interested in...
How is teaching someone that just because it's not 8-5 that the work stops a good thing?
I think that realistically preparing someone, even at a young age, that just because you punch out doesn't mean the work (life) is done.
I get what you are leaning towards with helping around the house, but all in all, there are a bunch of lazy ass mother truckers out there that barely have the motivation to do the work (or school) WHILE they're punched in, let alone do anything more than pick up an XBOX controller. Mostly because parents have shifted their responsibilities of education to the schools so mommy and daddy can go to a wine party after work.
The only way to enforce "equality" is via the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR.
It's not to "help" anyone. It's to impair EVERYONE.
I think this is a good idea.
Homework is a bad idea - it is what I would call a "time waster."
When a kid goes home, they shouldn't have a pile of work to do from school, but rather, they should be able to help around the house, or do something they are interested in...
Then the kid that you describe will be working for this Tiger Mom's kid some day:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
This mom understands that a parent must instill a warrior mindset in their child. Right now, that war is being fought with math, science, computers and engineering. Just as the Spartan's instilled a fighting skill set in their youth with often brutal efficiency, the Asians are doing the same with their kids when it comes to academics, and they are kicking our collective ass. This country is only going to get more dangerous and competitive, and we should each ask ourselves if now is a good time for our kids to be doing mainly what feels good after school.
Simply put, the average American public high school simply cannot produce a product that is competitive on the world stage WITH 2-3 hours of homework per day. Even our better private and parochial schools are outclassed by their peers in countries like Germany, India, parts of China, etc. Thus, if your kid goes to a below average public school, you had better be an engaged parent to make sure that your kid is getting extra work so that they can compete with more fortunate kids when they graduate.
Even when you look within American schools, the most prepared students are taking the most rigorous course work at competitive institutions. Unless they are a child prodigy, they are not going to handle the honors and AP course load without 3-5 hours of homework AFTER class. I went to a catholic high school and the norm was class ends at 3 PM, sports practice until 5:30, homework from 6:30 until 10 or 11. There was another 3-6 hours of homework every Saturday and Sunday. Sure, there were times where I got to focus on an important sports event, scouts, or some other nonacademic pursuit. But the norm was academics, academics, academics, and a little athletics to keep me fit.
Granted there are very rare exceptions where a kid has some freakish athletic or acting ability that requires extra attention away from the books. However, this is a very rare situation indeed. In addition, I plan to direct (but not force) my kid toward sports that have some practical application like wrestling, boxing, etc. I'm a failure as a parent if I catch him swinging a golf club or tennis racket. ;)
DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 14:21
Well, personally, I think that actually having a life outside of work/education is more important than being a "success."
I never attended school (strike that, went for exactly one day, and got kicked out) and while that certainly has kept me from doing some things I've wanted to do, I don't really mind, because a "career" is meaningless to me. I'm more interested in living my life - while I "should" have been in high school, I was able to do things that interested me - shooting, working with a lathe, training animals...
By the time I got my first more-than-full-time job (I'd worked for several years before that, but not at a large company) right after my 17th birthday, I had more experiences than most people twice my age. I'd traveled extensively across the US, lived many places, and done many things. I wouldn't trade my life for the "normal" life that most people in this country enjoy.
I place more emphasis on real-world performance, rather than some piece of paper, issued by the state, that proves nothing, since there are many "graduates" of secondary schools that cannot read, write, or spell....
Well, personally, I think that actually having a life outside of work/education is more important than being a "success."
I never attended school (strike that, went for exactly one day, and got kicked out) and while that certainly has kept me from doing some things I've wanted to do, I don't really mind, because a "career" is meaningless to me. I'm more interested in living my life - while I "should" have been in high school, I was able to do things that interested me - shooting, working with a lathe, training animals...
By the time I got my first more-than-full-time job (I'd worked for several years before that, but not at a large company) right after my 17th birthday, I had more experiences than most people twice my age. I'd traveled extensively across the US, lived many places, and done many things. I wouldn't trade my life for the "normal" life that most people in this country enjoy.
I place more emphasis on real-world performance, rather than some piece of paper, issued by the state, that proves nothing, since there are many "graduates" of secondary schools that cannot read, write, or spell....
For the record, I wouldn't gauge someones success in life based on their diploma or degree either. What I'm getting at is the "work ethic" that can be instilled in a young person by teaching them that it's not all fun and games because school/work is over for the day.
I've worked multiple jobs concurrently, off and on for many years so that I can do the fun stuff I want to do, like training classes, or get a new rifle, or shoot at often as I'd like. I, for one, am glad that I had "stuff" to do after school that made me focus on a goal.
Now, that being said, if it's doing stuff that interests a person, great, as long as it's something more than XBOX. That's what I was getting at. If they want to get home from school and learn to paint, more power to them. If they want to learn how to be a BMX champ, great. The main thing being that they are engaging more than just their butt and thumb muscles.
DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 14:52
Zhurdan,
Can't say that I disagree with most of what you are saying, except that making a child do "homework" doesn't teach them anything about life - it simply forces them into a mold that society wants them to fit in.
Unfortunately, I also see your point about video games, etc....
I don't see an easy solution though, until people start taking care of their children, instead of being focused on, well, whatever they are focused on that prevents them from spending time with their kids....
Zhurdan,
Can't say that I disagree with most of what you are saying, except that making a child do "homework" doesn't teach them anything about life - it simply forces them into a mold that society wants them to fit in.
Unfortunately, I also see your point about video games, etc....
I don't see an easy solution though, until people start taking care of their children, instead of being focused on, well, whatever they are focused on that prevents them from spending time with their kids....
Same book, different page my friend. :D
Then the kid that you describe will be working for this Tiger Mom's kid some day:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
This mom understands that a parent must instill a warrior mindset in their child. Right now, that war is being fought with math, science, computers and engineering. Just as the Spartan's instilled a fighting skill set in their youth with often brutal efficiency, the Asians are doing the same with their kids when it comes to academics, and they are kicking our collective ass. This country is only going to get more dangerous and competitive, and we should each ask ourselves if now is a good time for our kids to be doing mainly what feels good after school.
Simply put, the average American public high school simply cannot produce a product that is competitive on the world stage WITH 2-3 hours of homework per day. Even our better private and parochial schools are outclassed by their peers in countries like Germany, India, parts of China, etc. Thus, if your kid goes to a below average public school, you had better be an engaged parent to make sure that your kid is getting extra work so that they can compete with more fortunate kids when they graduate.
Even when you look within American schools, the most prepared students are taking the most rigorous course work at competitive institutions. Unless they are a child prodigy, they are not going to handle the honors and AP course load without 3-5 hours of homework AFTER class. I went to a catholic high school and the norm was class ends at 3 PM, sports practice until 5:30, homework from 6:30 until 10 or 11. There was another 3-6 hours of homework every Saturday and Sunday. Sure, there were times where I got to focus on an important sports event, scouts, or some other nonacademic pursuit. But the norm was academics, academics, academics, and a little athletics to keep me fit.
Granted there are very rare exceptions where a kid has some freakish athletic or acting ability that requires extra attention away from the books. However, this is a very rare situation indeed. In addition, I plan to direct (but not force) my kid toward sports that have some practical application like wrestling, boxing, etc. I'm a failure as a parent if I catch him swinging a golf club or tennis racket. ;)
Many of the people who do this wind up wrapping their entire self worth up in their careers and professions. All it takes is a single mistake or misstep to crater their plans and by extension, their self worth. They don't know how to reset and start over, or go another direction because that's ALL they know. Many of these people are ultimately unhappy.
I think a well balanced, self-adjusted and practical person who realizes the worth of their time is better off in the long run. I don't work to make myself happy or wealthy. I work to provide a reasonable return on my time and secure my family's financial present and future. I could always work longer or harder to make more, but I've recognized the need to take time for myself and those I care about.
I was always a "bright" student. I almost never handed in homework assignments complete (or at all), yet aced most of my tests. Despite having a full grasp of the subject matter, my grades were mediocre at best. Yet my childhood was excellent! My family couldn't afford to send me to college. I had no real interest in sports or academics as a vehicle, so a scholarship was out of the question. So I went enlisted military and never looked back. That life experience was more valuable to me than 4 more years in a classroom.
I now work in a field where a degree is highly preferred. I'm the only one in my office without one. Yet I'm the senior (not oldest) member of my team and everyone looks to me for leadership and expertise. I don't make the most money in my office, but more than most. I'm happy with where I'm at and have what I'd call a plentiful life.
I'm definitely glad I didn't have a "tiger mom". That would've been pure misery for both of us. :(
I don't see anywhere in my post or the OP's article where the claim was made that a degree or a high paying profession is the end-all-be-all of life and the path to nirvana. My understanding of the conversation is that we are discussing the need for homework and a rigorous academic environment in grade and high school.
Others have said that homework is a waist of time. I think that this is a very misguided position. My position is that it is very hard to go to school for only 7 hours and master the amount of material that is needed to be competitive in the world. Sure, your kids can graduate high school or get a GED with an "average" knowledge base and live a happy life thinking that Benghazi is a sexually transmitted disease and Joe Biden is that guy on the KFC sign. We have a whole system of entitlements to take care of those kids when they finally enter the work force and become part of the 47%. However, that level of performance is opening fewer and fewer doors as America loses its title as an economic superpower. Now, before anybody gets huffy because they pay their taxes and have a GED, understand I'm taking about averages across a population.
I'm also saying that it's a parent's responsibility to predict the skill set that their child will need to succeed later in life, and instill those skills in their child. If you think that XBox gamers will be in demand 20 years from now, by all means park that kid's ass in front of a TV when they get home from school. However, if you read that Tiger Mom article, you will notice that Asian parents have immersed themselves in their kid's school work because they believe that knowledge will be a REQUIREMENT to survive in tomorrow's world. They know better than most Americans that performers tend to survive as societies crumble because they experienced it first hand in Vietnam, Cambodia, Red China, Cuba (not Asian but similar circumstance), etc. They also don't seem to think that America's standards are rigorous enough for their kids. Thus, they set their standards well above the average American parent because they want their kids to survive if America does not. Now, you can laugh and blow that off if you want, but I would suggest that you should be very afraid.
2/3's of my kids' grades are homework and project assignments. They can ace the tests and still get C's in school. Frankly, this is crap and I've told the teachers as much.
It's their little way of exerting control on my kids. They've made it virtually impossible for us to take any vacations or hunting trips without risking losing an entire letter grade. The teachers are required to allow make up time for the school work for sick days, but for excused absences they are required to do the work while they are gone. Several times the teachers have changed homework assignments while we are gone and not accept the original assignment the kid did while out of school. Multiple trips to negotiate with the principle has resulted in some changes, but it seems to be a never ending issue. It's gotten so bad that my oldest daughter doesn't ever want to miss a day of school and stresses so bad that it makes her physically sick.
Couple this with the fact that teachers are regularly losing homework assignments and I have become a very frustrated parent. I purchased both my older kids cell phones that can take pictures and they now take pictures of their assignments in the inbox of the teacher.
Oddly enough, I am pretty darn happy with the education they are getting. I do wonder constantly what they do all day in school when there is hours of homework every night.
Well, personally, I think that actually having a life outside of work/education is more important than being a "success."
I never attended school (strike that, went for exactly one day, and got kicked out) and while that certainly has kept me from doing some things I've wanted to do, I don't really mind, because a "career" is meaningless to me. I'm more interested in living my life - while I "should" have been in high school, I was able to do things that interested me - shooting, working with a lathe, training animals...
By the time I got my first more-than-full-time job (I'd worked for several years before that, but not at a large company) right after my 17th birthday, I had more experiences than most people twice my age. I'd traveled extensively across the US, lived many places, and done many things. I wouldn't trade my life for the "normal" life that most people in this country enjoy.
I place more emphasis on real-world performance, rather than some piece of paper, issued by the state, that proves nothing, since there are many "graduates" of secondary schools that cannot read, write, or spell....
Average up the individuals who took your life path and compare them to the average of those who chose to go to school and get diplomas and see whose standard of living is higher?
Not saying that its impossible to have a good life without a higher education degree, just that the probability of doing so is higher one way than the other.
I believe that we should have balance. There are plenty of ways to excel at school AND have a good life outside of that. I'm not a proponent of handing out 8 hours of homework to every kid, even those who can master a topic with 10 minutes of practice. I do however KNOW that some form of repetition is required to master ANY skill be that shooting or math. I also KNOW that those repetitions can't happen for everyone during the school day.
I'm sorry for the kids of looser sperm donors whose parents can't value giving their kids the tools for a better life, but we shouldn't be striving to be equal. We should be striving to be the best.
Now, that being said, if it's doing stuff that interests a person, great, as long as it's something more than XBOX. That's what I was getting at. If they want to get home from school and learn to paint, more power to them. If they want to learn how to be a BMX champ, great. The main thing being that they are engaging more than just their butt and thumb muscles.
There is a reason the only video game system we have is a Wii. My kids are expected to learn a musical instrument, be active in a sport (swimming so far and he likes it), and to be active in their church youth program (scouts and a church program for the boys; a different church sponsored system for the girls). Once that is all done, they have free time they can do whatever projects they want, but they can't hang on the street corner like I see a bunch of kids, nor sit in front of the boob tube more than 1 hour a day (fudged once in a while to accommodate a movie or something). I also want to teach the kids how to shoot etc.
As I mentioned, I think homework is valuable and should be a corrected, non graded diagnostic to see how the learning is coming. It is dumb to count it towards a grade (except for reports and stuff) since the purpose of most homework is to practice what you are learning, i.e., is part of the learning process, and you are expected to make mistakes and not get everything right because you are still in the learning phase, not the testing phase to show what you learned.
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DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 17:54
<snip>
Well, apparently homework didn't do you much good, since you can't spell worth a hoot... When speaking about something that is a waste of time, it isn't spelled "waist."
I find your uppity attitude quite funny, considering the fact that if you and I were to sit down over lunch and talk about current events, international politics, or many more practical topics, I think you might be surprised how little you know.... Just because I don't have formal education under my belt doesn't mean that I'm a know-nothing blow-hard, that doesn't know who Joe Biden is, or where Benghazi is....
That "Tiger Mom" article is a load of garbage. Look where those kids are going to be in ten, twenty, or thirty years - they won't know a thing about the real world, how to survive for weeks on end in the bush, how to chop down a tree for firewood, or even how to cook a meal from scratch. They'll be typical little cogs in the corporate wheel, and if the lights go out for two days, they'll think the world has ground to a halt.
I don't have any experience with Chinese (though I did read the Tiger Mom articles a few months ago when they came out), but in Japan, academics is stressed highly and people are really pushed. They have after-school cram-schools you send your kids to to get the extra edge.
And the youth suicide rate in Japan is quite high.
And to be fair, I doubt every Chinese mom is a Tiger Mom. That particular lady is married to an Anglo, and I believe lives in the US (NYC?) or something. I have NOT read the article since it first came out earlier this year so I may have the details wrong. But I strongly doubt that that is typical in China. I do believe they take education more seriously, from various things I have read, than fat and happy Americans do.
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Well, apparently homework didn't do you much good, since you can't spell worth a hoot... When speaking about something that is a waste of time, it isn't spelled "waist."
I find your uppity attitude quite funny, considering the fact that if you and I were to sit down over lunch and talk about current events, international politics, or many more practical topics, I think you might be surprised how little you know....
I am betting he'd know as much as you. Sensei is not a dummy.
Just because I don't have formal education under my belt doesn't mean that I'm a know-nothing blow-hard, that doesn't know who Joe Biden is, or where Benghazi is....
I don't think he was addressing you personally. He was talking to the average American. cf. "Lunch Scholars" thread from a few days ago.
That "Tiger Mom" article is a load of garbage. Look where those kids are going to be in ten, twenty, or thirty years - they won't know a thing about the real world, how to survive for weeks on end in the bush, how to chop down a tree for firewood, or even how to cook a meal from scratch. They'll be typical little cogs in the corporate wheel, and if the lights go out for two days, they'll think the world has ground to a halt.
It is not a load of garbage. The average American may not be a cog in the corporate wheel in 20-30 years from now, but he will be in a cog in the welfare wheel, and won't know any more about any of those things you listed than the Asian kid will, but the Asian kid will be able to support himself in modern society.
There are always outlying exceptions. You obviously are one. We are not talking about the exceptions, we are talking about the average person.
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Let's not forget average IQs. Asians average 5 points higher on IQ tests than whites. Blacks average 15 points lower than whites. Those results show up in school performance too.
I find your uppity attitude quite funny, considering the fact that if you and I were to sit down over lunch and talk about current events, international politics, or many more practical topics, I think you might be surprised how little you know.... Just because I don't have formal education under my belt doesn't mean that I'm a know-nothing blow-hard, that doesn't know who Joe Biden is, or where Benghazi is....
That "Tiger Mom" article is a load of garbage. Look where those kids are going to be in ten, twenty, or thirty years - they won't know a thing about the real world, how to survive for weeks on end in the bush, how to chop down a tree for firewood, or even how to cook a meal from scratch. They'll be typical little cogs in the corporate wheel, and if the lights go out for two days, they'll think the world has ground to a halt.
DS, Chadbag is correct in his understanding of my last post. The only part that could be attributed to you was my redirecting the flow of the thread back to homework and your position that it is a waste of time. You and GTG seemed to take my statements (and the thread) in a direction that I never intended with the notion that happiness is somehow tied to degrees or a high paying job. While I happen to agree that education and happiness are correlated, that is a discussion for a different thread.
The rest of my post was a discription of the average parent's predicament when it comes to educating their children. None of those statements were suppose to be an insult to you. I even made a disclaimer that my comments were directed at averages across a population. However, you seem to internalize much of what I write and, rather than responding to my position, you react to an insult that never exists. Honestly, I'd much prefer to hear your defense of the issue at hand instead of a chest thumping challenge that we both know will never happen.
FChen17213
10-22-12, 20:14
I almost can't believe what I am reading. Sensei is like the only one I agree with. While, I absolutely agree that Tigermom is going to create some maladjusted unhappy, messed up kids frequently, I guarantee you that the country filled with Tigermoms is going to eventually come out ahead of the countries of slack parents who don't spanking their kids, don't discipline their kids, and don't push them for higher education. Yes, they will eventually come out on top economically and yes......militarily as well.
Who do you think is developing PVS-15s? F22s? B2 bombers? I promise you it isn't those kids who got bad grades and slacked off in school. It is those people who busted their asses in school and got A's. Think about America in WWII and the 1950s. Americans were the smartest, best educated, most disciplined, most hard working people in the world. We were the best at education, excelling at math, science, and engineering compared to the rest of the world. We didn't win that war just because we were American.
Fast forward to today. American kids are fat, lazy, ignorant, and come in well behind all other developed countries in terms of math and science. Germany, Japan, Israel, Russia, South Korea etc all destroy us now in terms of how well educated their students are. This is very very alarming and scary.
So while you can have a balanced kid, who might live a relatively happy life and live a mediocre existence, keep in mind that there are people in other countries who are busting their asses to kick ours. Think about a USPSA match. Who is going to wind up being a better shooter? The guy who shoots once every other week and lives a balanced normal life or the guy who spends 6 hrs a day dry firing, 3 hrs a day on his draw stroke and shoots 5 times a week? Sure, the first guy may live a better life but the second guy will most likely crush him on match day.
Olympic athletes, Tier 1 military people, corporate heads, Generals, and other highly successful people are almost all people who are self motivated people who constantly bust their ass working, training, and doing productive things. They are not people who slack off, and are ok with mediocre performance. It might not be a comfortable existence but if America is going to remain a world leader, we need kids to bust their asses as hard and as much as the other kids in other developed countries are. Otherwise, one day we'll be the ones with inferior military equipment, lower standard of living etc. We will be using iPhone 6s while the guys in other countries will have iPhone 10s. Their jets will be flying mach 5 while we'll still be at Mach 2.
So back to the topic of homework? Our kids should have LOTS of it. And have their asses beat if they don't do it. Fair? Not always. Life's not fair. Kids need to learn sooner rather than later. Life is tough. Get used to it.
DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 20:45
Germany, Japan, Israel, Russia, South Korea etc all destroy us now in terms of how well educated their students are.
Yes, and since all those countries you listed are such wonderful places...
Such strict discipline in school, does NOT produce mentally healthy individuals. If you look at societies in the past that have had very strict attitudes towards education, you will find certain very interesting trends that should frighten you, and no, I'm not gonna write an essay for you to read - if you want to expand your narrow world view, you're gonna have to do that on your own....
Just the humble opinion of a husband of a teacher:
School should be year-long with uniforms and no homework.
Got a tourist industry in Phoenix that doesn't revolve around drinking and gambling? Best forget about it if you want middle/high school level kids in school year-round.
Year round school sounds great in theory, but in practice, those kids are WAY better off in the working world for summer vacation/after school than stuck in a classroom.
As a father, I know my kids learn a lot more flipping burgers, painting sheds, hauling hay bales, mucking stalls, and a doing a variety of other odd/part-time jobs than they do at the local public school. They get a hell of alot more out of a cool $400 paycheck than they do out of an A on their English essay.
No offense to teachers and schooling, I do believe in public schooling (state level, not federal) and I don't mean to minimize the value of education, but taking away summer vacation will only cause a greater decline in the understanding of work ethic, and will be the death of seasonal tourist economies.
This board is full of posts bitching about lack of accountability in modern society, declining work ethics, poor discipline such as fiscal discipline, and erosion of individualism and self-dependence in favor of collectivism.
Yet, here we bring in a homework - success of completion of which lies in nothing but work ethics, discipline to avoid easy distraction, individual effort and accountability - and it becomes a governmental intrusion and assault on free spirit.
Give me a break, bitch about one of the two above, not both.
A human must have a freedom to take his path like DS did, but if a kid is staying in school - tough shit, school is your job now, and homework is where we find out if you have work ethics. If it were my way, most of the work would be homework, and classes would be where you found out if you got it right.
I don't see anywhere in my post or the OP's article where the claim was made that a degree or a high paying profession is the end-all-be-all of life and the path to nirvana. My understanding of the conversation is that we are discussing the need for homework and a rigorous academic environment in grade and high school.
Others have said that homework is a waist of time. I think that this is a very misguided position. My position is that it is very hard to go to school for only 7 hours and master the amount of material that is needed to be competitive in the world. Sure, your kids can graduate high school or get a GED with an "average" knowledge base and live a happy life thinking that Benghazi is a sexually transmitted disease and Joe Biden is that guy on the KFC sign. We have a whole system of entitlements to take care of those kids when they finally enter the work force and become part of the 47%. However, that level of performance is opening fewer and fewer doors as America loses its title as an economic superpower. Now, before anybody gets huffy because they pay their taxes and have a GED, understand I'm taking about averages across a population.
I'm also saying that it's a parent's responsibility to predict the skill set that their child will need to succeed later in life, and instill those skills in their child. If you think that XBox gamers will be in demand 20 years from now, by all means park that kid's ass in front of a TV when they get home from school. However, if you read that Tiger Mom article, you will notice that Asian parents have immersed themselves in their kid's school work because they believe that knowledge will be a REQUIREMENT to survive in tomorrow's world. They know better than most Americans that performers tend to survive as societies crumble because they experienced it first hand in Vietnam, Cambodia, Red China, Cuba (not Asian but similar circumstance), etc. They also don't seem to think that America's standards are rigorous enough for their kids. Thus, they set their standards well above the average American parent because they want their kids to survive if America does not. Now, you can laugh and blow that off if you want, but I would suggest that you should be very afraid.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. Not everyone wants to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant and not everyone who doesn't winds up in the 47% category. As a matter of fact, I'd say that a sizable portion of the 53% don't require a Tiger Mom to succeed in life. :rolleyes:
DS, Chadbag is correct in his understanding of my last post. The only part that could be attributed to you was my redirecting the flow of the thread back to homework and your position that it is a waste of time. You and GTG seemed to take my statements (and the thread) in a direction that I never intended with the notion that happiness is somehow tied to degrees or a high paying job. While I happen to agree that education and happiness are correlated, that is a discussion for a different thread.
The rest of my post was a discription of the average parent's predicament when it comes to educating their children. None of those statements were suppose to be an insult to you. I even made a disclaimer that my comments were directed at averages across a population. However, you seem to internalize much of what I write and, rather than responding to my position, you react to an insult that never exists. Honestly, I'd much prefer to hear your defense of the issue at hand instead of a chest thumping challenge that we both know will never happen.
You posted a statement that fairly implied American kids would be failures, if they didn't become a virtual slave to academics the way you did. Your treatise (by forum post standards, not the more rigorous academic standard) revolved around the defense of nearly all-consuming homework and rigorous academic training as a life-path. I merely pointed out that there was an alternative and you look upon me as if I were a proverbial 3-headed monster (literary license, so don't focus on it)?
Forcing a child onto a set path at an early age is great, if that happens to suit that child. If it doesn't, you're preparing the child for early burnout, excessive stress, anxiety and disassociation. What if you kid happens to LOVE golf or tennis to the point they excel and make it a career? We happen to agree that golf & tennis are a waste, but the entire world doesn't agree. I happen to think it's far more important to assess the child's strengths and weaknesses, then work with the child to understand them on a practical level.
So you love X-Box? Why? What is it about X-Box that does it for you? How do you feel about the people that make X-Box happen? Could you create that sort of product for others? What skill set does it take to make X-Box and the games? How much do game designers make on average? Will there still be a market for game designers when you're in your 20's or 30's? What will X-Box or associated games look like in the future? If game and console design died out, how could you make a living off what you've learned?
Higher education is a VERY profitable racket. They can wax eloquent on the virtues of every type of degree they offer, because it's money in their pocket. They can provide excellent examples of success stories in every field, yet they don't really advertise that those results aren't typical. Sadly, many of the degrees they offer aren't worth the paper they're printed on in the real world. It's like expecting every high school football player to make the NFL. It isn't going to happen.
You have to excel at math to be a rocket scientist. You also have to excel at math to be a good construction contractor. You have to be good at math AND leadership to build a major construction contractor corporation. I don't disagree that education is important. I recognize that I'm an exception, not a rule. What makes me an exception is not my I.Q., it's my use of analytics and my drive to excel.
P.S. It's "description", not "discription". I'll bet you write like a doctor too. That's OK, so do I. :)
Yes, and since all those countries you listed are such wonderful places...
Having lived (on the economy, not with .mil or .gov) in Germany 2x, for a total of close to 4 years, and having spent significant time in Japan, due to my wife being from there so we go visit her family as much as possible, both of those places, for the average person, are pretty much as nice to live places as here. They lack an RKBA, especially Japan, so for long term living they are crossed off, but that is about the only reason. While they are more nanny-statish, we are closing the gap fast and I can live with it. The RKBA is about the only thing we have ahead of them. And I've been to SK, and they are much more connected and hi-tech on average than we are. So, yes, most of those places are "wonderful places" on a generic scale.
I think that homework is a diagnostic and a practice, and as such, should not be part of the final grade, but used as a tool in teaching. But it is an important part of the teaching of new material and the mastery of that material by the learner.
Kids pushed to excel can be, and often are, just as well balanced as the kid who gets to do whatever he wants, and often is a slacker. I don;t live anywhere near a ghetto, and am in a "nice" middle class neighborhood, and when it is not crappy weather out, I often see small groups of kids just hanging out on their bikes or skateboards. Why? What could these kids be doing instead that would make them better people and not slackers. 4H, scouts, sports, shooting, music, homework/academics, mowing lawns, etc. Heck, we played Dungeons & Dragons a fair amount, especially in the summer. But we used our brains, our imaginations, and used it as a fun way to better ourselves through imagination. And school never came second. School, band (in my case), math team, all came in front during the school year so we only could play D&D or Avalon Hill or SPI military simulation games maybe once a week, and during the summer.
There are exceptions. Some people take the "outcast" way. And for them, that is good and they can be a success. But the average person won't succeed on the path that you took.
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FChen17213
10-22-12, 22:34
We are not talking about mental health. Damn, Some of us are starting to sound like Obama loving liberals here. Just feel good about yourself. Let's forget about achievement, money, and accomplishing things. Self esteem and feel good are obviously more important than actual performance to some of us here. Like I said before, you really have to give it to the liberals. They've created a generation that can't read, write, do math, do any heavy lifting, yet feel great about themselves.
As far as surviving in the wild and living without power? Let's face it. Not common in modern society. So while I agree that they are important skills, they will have very little practical use in modern society today...unless our entire society collapses and the country plunges into anarchy. Hell, at the rate things are going, that may be more probable than we may all think. Nonetheless, I equate that with the guy hoarding cases of MREs and water. It is just feel good bs for people who don't go pedal to the metal in life. But hey, most people today would rather lounge around and leech off of others than work.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. Not everyone wants to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant and not everyone who doesn't winds up in the 47% category. As a matter of fact, I'd say that a sizable portion of the 53% don't require a Tiger Mom to succeed in life. :rolleyes:
This is a very true statement, but needs to be expanded to include the concept that not everybody NEEDS to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer... Society needs everyone to make it work. Everyone is a useful cog to a society from the garbage guy to the president. We all have roles to play, and while I am a proponent of a tough educational program geared toward getting the best out of every student I fully respect the guys who pick up my garbage or flip my burgers. My theory is that an individual who puts effort into their education (including doing their homework or even doing more than the assigned tasks if that is what I takes to master a concept) has the ability to choose their life path, where as, the inverse is not always true. An educated person can choose to be a garbage man while a drop out can't choose to be a doctor. What category do you want your kid in? The one that offers them more options to make a life for themselves or the one that limits those choices?? For me the "hardship" of doing homework is a little sacrifice to put my kid in the primer.
I agree with the idea of eliminating graded homework assignments as the point of the assignment is to prepare the child for the upcoming exam. However, I can already hear the whining masses bitching about how if their precious baby has to do the work it better count or since you weren't grading it we didnt think it was important... Blah blah blah.
I think that a lot of self-satisfaction comes by accomplishing something. Those kids who achieve, whether on their own initiative or due to a Tiger Mom or Dad, in the end have a greater feeling of accomplishment than the person who is told his whole life how great he is, when he does nothing.
Because they actually did it. They accomplished something.
When it comes to music, I wish my parents had pushed me more. In second grade they started me on piano lessons. After about 6-8 months or so, I quit. I wish they had told me I could choose the instrument, but once chosen, I had to follow through for several years. And pushed me to do it. But I guess playing nerf football with my neighborhood friends was more important, or something.
I did start trumpet in 4th grade and played through my freshman year in college, but I never really took it that seriously. I did not practice that much at home, just in daily band class. I got by and even got on the jazz band as a HS freshman, but I did not excel. I wish they had put my nose to the wheel a bit more about practicing. Now, at age 46, I am paying good money to learn bass guitar, after an abortive 6 month start about 18 years ago. We are now about 18 months into it and most weeks I manage to get some good practice in. Never what I should, but more than I ever did as a kid. But what I wouldn't give NOW, as an adult, to have the piano and trumpet skills I SHOULD have gotten as a kid.
I am trying to set the example for my kid, who is also taking bass guitar lessons. Right now he is kind of down on it (right now it is any instrument but bass, though initially and for the first year he was big on bass and beamed when we went and saw the Flecktones and Victor Wooten in July 11). I tell him he chose the instrument, now he has to follow through and show me he can practice, and learn his instrument, and if he wants to take up a new instrument in 3 or 4 years, he can IFF he earns it by mastering his current instrument. He'll thank me when he is 18 and a master bassist.
Same with his swimming. Luckily he enjoys it and works hard, but I tell him, he needs to stick with it and set goals for himself.
Kids are full of energy, and inquisitiveness. But they don't have the wisdom to guide themselves along the path to adulthood. That is why they have parents, and part of parenting is to instill a certain discipline. For some kids, it may work better another way, but for most kids, the straight and narrow is probably the better way.
It does not matter whether they want to go to college and become an engineer, lawyer, doctor, or accountant, or scientist, or they want to join the military, or work as a tradesman. All of these demand discipline, thinking ability, and knowledge, and wisdom.
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Personally, I think that the classroom is where new material is introduced and explained. Homework is where the material is repeated until mastery. That is because repetition is the mother of all learning.
So, those of you who do not believe in homework, do you spend hours repeating the shooting skills that you learn in a class? If you do, then stop arguing that homework is a waste of time because you are being intellectually dishonest.
What you are really arguing is that a rigerous education is meaningless in terms of survival in our competitive society. OK, lets have that discussion. If this is true, then high school dropouts should fare just as well as someone who graduates in the top 10% of their high school class. In other words, there is proportional representation of dropouts, mediocre performers, and valedictorians spread across the 40% of Americans receiving government assistance or the 47% who don't pay income tax. If you reject this last sentence, then you are a believer in homework and education since that honors graduate did a helluva lot more than the dropout.
This is a very true statement, but needs to be expanded to include the concept that not everybody NEEDS to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer... .
Very true and I don't understand why this strawman argument gets attributed to my post or even this thread. Many of us with professional degrees have decided to forgo a lucrative career for service in the military, teaching, LE, etc. I'm trading a stethoscope for a badge and a gun (along with a huge cut in pay), but I understand that my ability to do this in my mid-thirties is directly related to countless hours spent studying.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. Not everyone wants to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant and not everyone who doesn't winds up in the 47% category.
Seems a bit dichotomous to me. Maybe I didn't read the thread accurately, but I didn't feel that Sensei suggested every kid to do an IB curriculum or knock out 10 AP classes.
As an original subject of a matter stands to be a homework, to me it remains to be an indicator of child's discipline and responsibility first, and academic prowess second. I am not advocating to rob the kid of a happy childhood, but the cultivation of work ethics has got to begin before the kid leaves parent's home.
As far as assessing kid's talents and promoting them - sure thing, but how is it contradictory to getting an education and developing habits of individual unsupervised work? Out of tens of thousands of US kids showing a promise in tennis there is no more than dozen at a given year that have a secure life because of that early childhood talent; others better have a back-up plan.
Personally, I think that the classroom is where new material is introduced and explained. Homework is where the material is repeated until mastery. That is because repetition is the mother of all learning.
So, those of you who do not believe in homework, do you spend hours repeating the shooting skills that you learn in a class? If you do, then stop arguing that homework is a waste of time because you are being intellectually dishonest.
What you are really arguing is that a rigorous education is meaningless in terms of survival in our competitive society. OK, lets have that discussion. If this is true, then high school dropouts should fare just as well as someone who graduates in the top 10% of their high school class. In other words, there is proportional representation of dropouts, mediocre performers, and valedictorians spread across the 40% of Americans receiving government assistance or the 47% who don't pay income tax. If you reject this last sentence, then you are a believer in homework and education since that honors graduate did a helluva lot more than the dropout.
To be honest, shooting isn't something I have to work hard at. I've been shooting competitively for about a dozen years now and I've amassed about 50 state, regional, national and international trophies. I've won numerous state and regional titles and one national championship. I finished in the top 3% overall at a national championship and was the highest placed shooter without any sponsorship. Oh, I didn't start until I was 36, I'm moderately overweight (medical issues) and my prescription shooting glasses are about 4 years out of date. I make do pretty well with what I've got. :)
When people ask me how much I practice, they never believe me when I tell them about 1500 rounds a year and very little dry fire, not to mention almost no formal class training (again, analytics is my strong suit). That is until the people I shoot with all the time confirm that I'm telling the truth. Am I saying that practice is unimportant? Absolutely not. For some people practice is critical. I do however believe that if enough energy is focused on determining what comes naturally to someone, it requires a lot less practice than something they don't do well and may never do in day to day activities once they leave school. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice does. Do you think kids are doing perfect practice on things they aren't interested in and don't see the value of?
If it's a critical skill, I think more effort should be placed on HOW it will negatively impact their adult life if they fail to master it. If it's not a critical skill, how are you going to sell it unless the kid has a passion for it? If it's simply a matter of beating the game, say so.
Quite frankly, we need highly skilled, practiced and motivated professionals to be doctors, scientists and other professionals. We just don't need everyone to go to that level. :)
This isn't just in France, it's been going on in parts of the US for the last 10 years or so. My ladies a teacher- IS NOT allowed to assign homework to middle school kids.
I have no issue with homework. However, it should not be the basis of a grade in a class. The tests should be the measure of your understanding of the subject. If a kid can master the understanding of the subject without doing hours of drudgery at home, then he should be allowed to. The current grading system at our local school punishes students by putting too much emphasis on homework. It takes away the students' ability to travel, work after school and participate in sports.
I have no issue with homework. However, it should not be the basis of a grade in a class. The tests should be the measure of your understanding of the subject. If a kid can master the understanding of the subject without doing hours of drudgery at home, then he should be allowed to. The current grading system at our local school punishes students by putting too much emphasis on homework. It takes away the students' ability to travel, work after school and participate in sports.
When I was in MS and HS, homework was about 10% of your grade and you got full credit for just simply completing the assignment. There were "take-home projects" that were more heavily graded such as lab reports, book reports, etc. However, the usual "complete problems 1-40 for tomorrow" was either get full credit for completing the problem, or no credit for incomplete work. Sometimes there was a pop quiz to determine if you read an assigned chapter.
Having said that, there is a big difference between homework assignments and studying. Homework is assigned problems to help you grasp concepts that were explained in class. Studying is what you do beyond the assigned problems to refresh or expand that knowledge. For example, I studied math by going back and redoing the hardest problems from previous day's homework. I also reviewed problems with a study group on the weekends. That meant I'd seen the hardest problems 7 or 8 times over the course of a few weeks before a test.
Yep. Same thing when I was a kid attending the same high school my kids now attend. Somewhere along the line things changed and homework became more weighted than the actual grasp of the subject matter (test). Probably a knee jerk reaction that tests are unfair ;)
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