View Full Version : Two LE Agencies Adopt SIG Piston Guns
Two Announcements from SIG Today:
Cincinnati SWAT Team Selects SIG SAUER® SIG516® CQB Rifles
EXETER, N.H. (Oct 22, 2012) — SIG SAUER®, a U.S.-based leading manufacturer of law enforcement and military firearms, has been selected by the Cincinnati Police Department’s Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) Team to provide SIG516® CQB rifles.
The selection of the 10" short-barreled rifles provides a ballistic upgrade over the team’s previously issued 9mm submachine gun. Chambered in 5.56mm, these semi-automatic rifles deliver more energy and allow officers to deliver precise shots at longer range.
“Cincinnati SWAT officers never know what their next call out may be, from barricaded suspects to hostage standoffs to close-quarter entries,” said Tom Jankiewicz, SIG SAUER Director of Law Enforcement, Military and Government Sales. “With the selection of the SIG516 CQB, these officers are prepared for any action at any range.”
The SIG516 platform utilizes a short-stroke gas pushrod system that significantly reduces heat and carbon fouling in the chamber. The adjustable gas system can be tuned to work in extremely adverse conditions as well as with sound suppressors.
AND
Delaware State Police Unit Selects SIG SAUER® SIG516® Rifles
EXETER, N.H. (Oct 22, 2012) — SIG SAUER®, a U.S.-based leading manufacturer of law enforcement and military firearms, has been selected by the Delaware State Police Special Operations Response Team (SORT) to provide SIG516® rifles.
Approximately 40 SORT members are available to respond to hostage incidents, armed barricade situations, high-risk warrant service, dignitary protection and overall crisis situations throughout the state.
“With the wide selection of AR-platform rifles on the market, we feel the SIG516 stands out for its superior design and operating system,” said Tom Jankiewicz, Director of Operations, Law Enforcement, Government and Military Sales. “We’re honored the Delaware State Police SORT felt the same way.”
The 5.56mm SIG516 rifle was chosen after an evaluation of accuracy, reliability and durability. The short-stroke gas piston system of the SIG516 reduces carbon and heat buildup, which leads to enhanced function. Delaware State Troopers currently carry SIG SAUER Model P229 pistols in .357SIG as their approved duty sidearm. Troopers in the First State were the first to adopt the .357SIG for duty use.
Become a fan of SIG SAUER on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/SigSauerInc.
About SIG SAUER®, Inc.
SIG SAUER, Inc. is the largest member of a worldwide business group of firearms manufacturers that includes SIG SAUER GmbH & Co. KG in Germany and Swiss Arms AG in Switzerland. This global network of companies gives SIG SAUER a world-class firearms knowledge base, unparalleled design expertise, and extensive manufacturing capacity, enabling the company to respond quickly and effectively to changing market conditions and the needs of its military, law enforcement, and commercial markets worldwide. SIG SAUER is an ISO 9001: 2008 certified company with over 600 employees. For more information on SIG SAUER, any of its products, or the SIG SAUER Academy log on to www.sigsauer.com.
vicious_cb
10-22-12, 18:35
Looks to be very small departments and not very well funded if they were still using 9mm subguns in 2012. No big news here, I mean did they even hold a competition? I mean there are still departments issuing bushmasters out there.
Have you fired or even handled a 516 or 716? they're no slouches when it comes to ARs. I actually plan to buy myself a 716 for my xmas present!!
Looks to be very small departments and not very well funded if they were still using 9mm subguns in 2012. No big news here, I mean did they even hold a competition? I mean there are still departments issuing bushmasters out there.
You might be surprised how many departments are still utilizing 9mil smgs. Every agency in my county is still purchasing them in addition to 5.56 caliber guns.
Police departments can make such dumb decisions. :rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:11
Police departments can make such dumb decisions. :rolleyes:
As usual. Me and markm are in agreement.
you guys just like to stir shit up when it comes to SIG products....we're all used to it!!! the bottom line is I have 3 SIG rifles and 4 SIG pistol....actually 5 sig pistols...I've never had an issue with any one of them.....my old 228 must have 3-4K rounds through it...it would have more, but apparently I put in in my Dad's gunsafe when I moved to Dallas in 2001 and I just came across it a couple weeks ago when we pulling stuff out of his safe...anyway..say what you guy like, but I have am a happy SIG customer.
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:31
you guys just like to stir shit up when it comes to SIG products....we're all used to it!!! the bottom line is I have 3 SIG rifles and 4 SIG pistol....actually 5 sig pistols...I've never had an issue with any one of them.....my old 228 must have 3-4K rounds through it...it would have more, but apparently I put in in my Dad's gunsafe when I moved to Dallas in 2001 and I just came across it a couple weeks ago when we pulling stuff out of his safe...anyway..say what you guy like, but I have am a happy SIG customer.
That's why they work.
What does this overpriced piston gun, that may not meet the important parts of mil spec. do that a cheaper Colt 6920 doesn't?
Also, if they've dicked up gas selector plugs on the American SIG 556 rifles, what makes you think they'll be correct on these?
Anything differant than 5-6 wunderbrands (and those have to be DI) bring out the naysayers.
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:33
Anything differant than 5-6 wunderbrands (and those have to be DI) bring out the naysayers.
If it had been HK 416/417, or a SCAR you wouldn't see me, or anybody else bitching.
S. Galbraith
10-22-12, 19:39
Police departments can make such dumb decisions. :rolleyes:
It's amazing how many departments that I run into that are using Rock Rivers, Olympic Arms, or Bushmasters. Heck, the idiot who was in charge of firearms procurement where I currently work bought all the officers DPMS M4s.
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:41
It's amazing how many departments that I run into that are using Rock Rivers, Olympic Arms, or Bushmasters. Heck, the idiot who was in charge of firearms procurement where I currently work bought all the officers DPMS M4s.
Are you required to carry it?
Freedoooom
10-22-12, 19:44
If it had been HK 416/417, or a SCAR you wouldn't see me, or anybody else bitching.
Oh the European wonder brands.
Echo echo echo echo... Chamber.
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:47
Oh the European wonder brands.
Echo echo echo echo... Chamber.
Yeah. The ones that are proven.
S. Galbraith
10-22-12, 19:50
Are you required to carry it?
No. I use a BCM middy with T1. I upgraded all the BCGs on the DPMS rifles at least. Budgets are tight right now, and my chief doesn't agree with me on "improving" our rifle situation. He bought a bunch of Trijicon reflexes with absolute co-witness for the DPMSs too. :bad: Didn't even ask me my opinion on that either.
charmcitycop
10-22-12, 19:52
.......
I got a 7" barrel 516 waiting for a tax stamp. While I was never a huge fan of the 556 the 516 seems well put together.
I have trained with one of the two SWAT's teams listed. I would NOT assign any importance to them selecting SIG.
C4
It's amazing how many departments that I run into that are using Rock Rivers, Olympic Arms, or Bushmasters. Heck, the idiot who was in charge of firearms procurement where I currently work bought all the officers DPMS M4s.
No doubt. It's nuts.
you guys just like to stir shit up when it comes to SIG products.
The two things the picked wrong were...
1. Sig, and..
2. Piston...
Other than that, they NAILED it. :jester:
Is there really anything techincally wrong with the 516? I haven't seen or handled one which is why I'm asking. Given that it's a Sig it will undoubtedly be overpriced compared to some of the other preferred alternatives out there like Colt, BCM, DD, etc. But price aside is it really a bad choice of AR in terms of performance? Googling reviews for it doesn't really turn up any bad feedback on it. Nothing stellar, but nothing awful either. Anyone have firsthand hard use data on it?
I'm wondering if Sig actually put out a dog of a piston AR or if it's really just a matter of cost/benefit (and overall value) ratio being weak compared to others? In other words it may not be the best choice, and some may feel it was a poor choice, but was it actually a BAD choice?
How bad of a choice are we talking here? Bad as in "they got suckered and could have gotten more AR for less $$" or bad as in "someone might die because of that choice"? I wouldn't think Sig products are that bad... DPMS and Olympic maybe. :) Also, considering that they allegedly stole the BCG design from LWRC and copied the piston design from HK how bad could it be, right. ;)
Police departments can make such dumb decisions. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately given the state of the economy right now PDs (just like every other public service dept) are under a lot of budget pressures. It wouldn't surprise me if Sig lowballed the deals, possibly even at a loss, to secure references for their 516 line. In which case they may have gotten a great deal. A deal they may never have gotten being small and dealing with the military AR suppliers that have a steady stream of practially fixed revenue and an established AR reputation. Smaller PD SWATs would make sense too since it would be less of a loss and still worth the same marketing value. For the mass market news of any PD or SWAT unit selecting a specific platform is a big deal.
Me thinks the bean counter got a "good deal" from Sig,so Sig can boast that some tac teams "selected the Sig".
My team got a "good deal"when they switched out from the MP5.
They bought Olympic Arms. Myself and another team member told them not to do it.
They bought 8. Everyone had MAJOR issues. Bolts snapped in half you name it.
They finally dumped them and went with Rock River 10.5.
No issues with those.
I have 6 of my own that I use. Noveske, BCM, and KAC, Geissele etc. for the major parts.
I am not going to get into the Sig / piston etc debate, but from a pure price standpoint, I know exactly how much they are pricing them at. If you bundle them as a carbine / pistol combo, the cost is very very attractive to those in control of funds.
That the SIG 5.56 and 7.62 piston guns are fixed at 1999 carbine-length handguards is a no-go now that it is 2012. The long length handguards of the HK designs are one of several things that the Germans got right in making the M4 a piston gun. The SIG piston gas block design precludes ever modifying the handguards to a useful length. Not a problem with an 8.5 inch entry gun but a non-starter in this day and age for everything else.
I see more of your silliness prevails as usual. There is a reason why certain brands get recommended. It's because they have a track record. Since these will be used by a PD it's even more important that they function. Honestly, I hope they do because maybe one day the age of the shit AR manufacturer will go away.
Anything differant than 5-6 wunderbrands (and those have to be DI) bring out the naysayers.
charmcitycop
10-23-12, 01:50
.......
Both. I can think of no reason why any police department should consider anything other than Colt from both a quality/cost standpoint.
That seems a little extreme to me. There are plenty of other companies that have extremely good reputations and if they came in cheaper then colt, why not go with them.
Now as to the sig, I do think it is a little strange for a PD to go with a piston gun. At the same time, from what I have seen, they are of good quality. I have not heard any negative reports on function. I will agree that the carbine handguard thing sucks. But if they got a good deal and they work then good for them. If they dont, well hopefully they learn their lesson.
sinlessorrow
10-23-12, 11:58
I see more of your silliness prevails as usual. There is a reason why certain brands get recommended. It's because they have a track record. Since these will be used by a PD it's even more important that they function. Honestly, I hope they do because maybe one day the age of the shit AR manufacturer will go away.
I honestly doubt I will ever seethat day, shit ar makers are in business because people are stupid.
Also what a PD buys means little. Alot use bushmasters, RRA dpms, even the baltimor swat use ADCOR BEARS and tote them as the best AR ever made.
My agency adopted the 516 last year for patrol use and a few 716s this year. Yes, it was "cost effective" considering Sig worked a swap for our older 551 and 552 rifles. No problems with any of the rifles to date that I'm aware of.
It's amazing how many departments that I run into that are using Rock Rivers, Olympic Arms, or Bushmasters. Heck, the idiot who was in charge of firearms procurement where I currently work bought all the officers DPMS M4s.
One of my best friends is a LEO at my local PD. They recently designated a senior officer in a DMR capacity for the dept after a very recent incident in our county. Last week the department bought him a .308 Bushmaster. My buddy (whose patrol rifle is a BCM) and I just cringed.
-Jax
Looks to be very small departments and not very well funded if they were still using 9mm subguns in 2012.
Delaware State Police and the city of Cincinnati are now considered "very small departments"? I don't think so, sorry but they are large departments and with that comes bragging rights for firearms companies.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 13:45
That the SIG 5.56 and 7.62 piston guns are fixed at 1999 carbine-length handguards is a no-go now that it is 2012. The long length handguards of the HK designs are one of several things that the Germans got right in making the M4 a piston gun. The SIG pistol gas block design precludes ever modifying the handguards to a useful length. Not a problem with an 8.5 inch entry gun but a non-starter in this day and age for everything else.
Interesting. I had no idea......
charmcitycop
10-23-12, 15:09
.........
Here is one thing I will say. Many look down on these guns as not being proven. Well, perhaps with more PD buying them someday they will be proven, after all, we will never be able to prove anything if we do not give it a chance.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 15:42
Please do not believe what a company's press release says.
Yup. ADCOR has been playing fast and loose with the press releases for a while.
sinlessorrow
10-23-12, 15:57
Yup. ADCOR has been playing fast and loose with the press releases for a while.
Good to know. I saw their press release and a few "quotes" and figured why would they make that up......
Grand58742
10-23-12, 16:46
Yup. ADCOR has been playing fast and loose with the press releases for a while.
That statement does qualify for an explanation.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 16:50
That statement does qualify for an explanation.
I'm not in a place where I can research it but look for their propaganda regarding the carbine competition.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
sinlessorrow
10-23-12, 16:52
I'm not in a place where I can research it but look for their propaganda regarding the carbine competition.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Only thing I have seen is that they made it to Phase II which from what I understand is true.
Grand58742
10-23-12, 17:19
I'm not in a place where I can research it but look for their propaganda regarding the carbine competition.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Edited as I stand corrected.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 17:23
Pm inbound
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
I have a good friend who is a Dayton cop and he informed me they just revived a bunch of Sig AR s I'll have to ask him who paid for them. A local gun dealer told me Cincinnati cops we're given Smith and Wesson M&Ps pistols for free as long as they could be mentioned in Smiths Advertising. Don't be surprised if Sig isn't playing the same game.
Who knows how it really went down. Could be that Sig is using these PD's for marketing. Lets face it, the average person thinks that police carry all the best weapons. Most people don't know any better. Or maybe these departments ran some gun trials and the Sig came out on top for THEIR needs. One thing I do know, Cinci PD ain't small and their swat team is busy. Having said that, I hope the Sig does right by them when they need it.
My PD still issues Bushmaster. We recently were given the option to carry personally owned rifles with Bushmaster, S&W and Colt to choose from. Needles to say, I turned in my Bushy and now carry my own 6920. Most guys went with the Bushmaster.
Beat Trash
10-23-12, 18:39
I have a good friend who is a Dayton cop and he informed me they just revived a bunch of Sig AR s I'll have to ask him who paid for them. A local gun dealer told me Cincinnati cops we're given Smith and Wesson M&Ps pistols for free as long as they could be mentioned in Smiths Advertising. Don't be surprised if Sig isn't playing the same game.
Don't believe everything your local gun dealer tells you as gospel. Cincinnati was one of the very first agencies to go to the 9mm M&P. The three T&E guns tested were the first 3 9mm M&P's to leave the factory. There was a LOT more involved with the transition from the previous 5946's than advertising.
I'm not with SWAT and will not comment on how and why the Sig guns were chosen to replace some old MP5's. Some of the individuals involved in that decision have since retired and have been replaced. Unfortunately those who replaced them inharated some things. These new Sig SBR carbines are o e example. I will say that there has been positive feedback on the Surfire suppressers that also was ordered with each of the Sig carbines.
Grant did indeed spend a bit of time training with one of the SWAT teams mentioned. I drove out to meet him in person. (He's a hell of a nice guy). He had an interesting experience to put it mildly. If he had a chance to repeat the same training, he'd notice a drastic change. Unfortunately the Sig SBR's were a product of the previous era.
I've played with one of the Sig SBR piston guns just for a short while. It went "bang" for the few rounds I fired. I thought the balance of the gun sucked. In no way did I spend enough time with it to have formed an opinion on the reliability of the system.
I would have preferred to order some Colt 6933's and call it a day, were it me.
Not that it matters to this topic, but as a Relief Sergeant, my Department approved, privately owned Patrol Rifle is a Colt 6920. I have no intent on replacing it with a piston gun, a Sig, or a Sig piston gun.
I corrected my earlier post to say "piston" and not "pistol". Thanks BigL for catching that for me.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 19:58
I corrected my earlier post to say "piston" and not "pistol". Thanks BigL for catching that for me.
I think I saw "piston" too I sure didn't catch it :D
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Needles to say, I turned in my Bushy and now carry my own 6920. Most guys went with the Bushmaster.
Too bad most LE isn't informed enough to make the same decision. Good on ya'.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 21:58
Too bad most LE isn't informed enough to make the same decision. Good on ya'.
I'd wager that much blindly trust their dept and/or don't have the coin for personally owned weapons. I'd be happy if they knew enough to touch up the staking of the gas key, lube properly, buy good mags, and change springs as needed.
I'd wager that much blindly trust their dept and/or don't have the coin for personally owned weapons. I'd be happy if they knew enough to touch up the staking of the gas key, lube properly, buy good mags, and change springs as needed.
The number of agencies that authorize POW long arms is very small. For the vast majority, one carries what one is issued.
Littlelebowski
10-23-12, 22:10
The number of agencies that authorize POW long arms is very small. For the vast majority, one carries what one is issued.
I figured as much. Hopefully they have good armorers.....
It's really a shame. Most guys went with the lesser quality to save money. I don't blame them necessarily. A quality patrol rifle is priceless in my eyes but not everyone sees it that way. Others just aren't knowledgeable enough to know better. You should see some of the optics, slings and lights that are in service. Some of it is down right frightening. We have to pick from Colt, SW, or Bushmaster. the rifle must be equipped with a sling and weapon light. There are no regs on any of the accesories though. Some guys have garbage optics, slings and lights. Just today, I inspected one of my guys rifle. His castle nut was loose.
Moose-Knuckle
10-24-12, 19:28
Our agency purchased BM 16" Patrolman Carbines A3 90481 for the squads. :rolleyes:
Thankfully our officers can use your their own rifles so long as they are a factory AR. Someone asked one of our officers one day what "brand" of AR's our department used . . . the officer's response "I don't know, I think Cobra or something like that". He was referring to the snake on the BM roll mark. :suicide:
People for the love of whatever you hold holy, DO NOT put faith in a firearm solely because agencies X, Y, and Z adopted it. A majority of the command staff who make such decisions do not know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Things could be much worse. One of the local Sheriff's departments that I interact with regularly is still rocking Mini-14's as a patrol carbine. With the budget the way it is, that won't be changing anytime soon.
The_War_Wagon
10-24-12, 21:19
When range qualification becomes mandatory for the city comptroller, such silliness will cease. :jester:
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
10-25-12, 14:22
Things could be much worse. One of the local Sheriff's departments that I interact with regularly is still rocking Mini-14's as a patrol carbine. With the budget the way it is, that won't be changing anytime soon.
The NYPD still assigned mini 14s to certain officers who were stationed in "sensitive locations" such as 1PP and the academy for high threat levels. You'd only see them when high profile threats or threat levels were reported such as during the blackout in '03. Those were throwbacks to the bygone days before the m16/m4 came on the scene for the city, when FALN and BLA scum were out trying to actively kill cops. Not sure if those guns were relatively new or old throw arounds and I can't tell you if they're still purchased from Ruger today.
For those trained in special weapons, the city has mostly stuck with MP5s, colt m4a1s and Mossberg/Ithaca shotguns, which have been stellar for the most part. But the city is not typically known for making wise equipment decisions, much like many other agencies nation wide. As others have said, even with complaints and objections from those who will actually depend on guns to save lives, bean counters and "omnipotent genius" chiefs/commissioners care only for the bottom line and know as much about guns as Carolyn "the barrel shroud" McCarthy.
I think I know little but find I know more about the firearms I carry than many dept armorers I've encountered, past and present, and if you asked me 10 years ago what AR was good I would have said bushy. This was not because I thought colt was bad but because I read a lot of gun rags and thought all these advertised and reviewed bushies, olys, dpms and the like had to be good because writers/reviewers said so. I was trying to learn and ended up learning nonsense. Now that I know better, if given the choice, I'll take the DDs, BCMs, Colts, etc with my absolute favorites being my personal SR15E3/SR25 ECC combo.
But look on the bright side...some places may choose sig for cheapo deals and not know about the QC and manufacturer corner cutting but at least it's better than the ghetto special. Imagine a dept head choosing highpoints. We would actually pray thy got sigs instead and I'd laugh my balls off! :jester:
There seems to be many people who believe the sig was a terrible choice. Are people picturing them malfunctioning every 3rd round our something? how many cops ever fire their rifle aside from training? I live in nh and it seems to me that maybe once a year the police will need a rifle, and I'd be willing to bet that ANY newer rifle will function well.if your wondering,i am a vet and have trained on and have owned numerous rifles. For god sales, even the $19 grease gun that was issued in ww2 works.it seems like there are many gun store commandos here...
From my mobile phone
Sakes, not sales...
From my mobile phone
There seems to be many people who believe the sig was a terrible choice. Are people picturing them malfunctioning every 3rd round our something? how many cops ever fire their rifle aside from training? I live in nh and it seems to me that maybe once a year the police will need a rifle, and I'd be willing to bet that ANY newer rifle will function well.if your wondering,i am a vet and have trained on and have owned numerous rifles. For god sales, even the $19 grease gun that was issued in ww2 works.it seems like there are many gun store commandos here...
From my mobile phone
I find it funny that people who defend "lesser" brands are ALWAYS the one to call people "Gun store commandos" or "mall ninjas". It's pretty funny because they are also the ones who hang 101 different accessories off from their DPMS and spend more on their optic than the rest of their rifle combined.
Just because people on this forum demand the best does not make anyone a "gun store commando". To me a "gun store commando" or "mall ninja" is the guy who preaches that DPMS and RRA are equal to a Colt.
I find it funny that people who defend "lesser" brands are ALWAYS the one to call people "Gun store commandos" or "mall ninjas". It's pretty funny because they are also the ones who hang 101 different accessories off from their DPMS and spend more on their optic than the rest of their rifle combined.
Just because people on this forum demand the best does not make anyone a "gun store commando". To me a "gun store commando" or "mall ninja" is the guy who preaches that DPMS and RRA are equal to a Colt.
To me it's the guy who has all the latest gear and is still on his first case of ammo.
Devildawg77
11-12-12, 10:55
A little while back there was talk of my agency possibly purchasing these for SWAT right after Cincy PD bought theirs. Sig came to our agency with the 516 and pretty much everything else they make.
I handled one of the SBR versions of the 516. Sorry, but I can't remember the barrel length. I didn't shoot it enough nor do I consider myself qualified to give an opinion on it.
In addition to it being yet "unproven", I wasn't reassured by the fact that the "piston" parts were only available through Sig and that parts from other manufacturer's piston systems wouldn't work on the Sig. This along with the price, around $1300, also factored into my arguing against purchasing them.
We eventully ended up trading our MP-5s for Colt Commandos.:D
Beat Trash
11-12-12, 13:07
A little while back there was talk of my agency possibly purchasing these for SWAT right after Cincy PD bought theirs. Sig came to our agency with the 516 and pretty much everything else they make.
I handled one of the SBR versions of the 516. Sorry, but I can't remember the barrel length. I didn't shoot it enough nor do I consider myself qualified to give an opinion on it.
In addition to it being yet "unproven", I wasn't reassured by the fact that the "piston" parts were only available through Sig and that parts from other manufacturer's piston systems wouldn't work on the Sig. This along with the price, around $1300, also factored into my arguing against purchasing them.
We eventully ended up trading our MP-5s for Colt Commandos.:D
Lucky you...
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