Bailout fails: Jeeps to be made in China [Archive]

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500grains

10-23-12, 15:25

Bailed-Out Chrysler to Build Jeeps in China

American taxpayers should prepare themselves for another slap in the face, courtesy of the much-ballyhooed Obama auto bailouts. After spending about $85 billion to bail out Chrysler, General Motors and Ally Financial (formerly known as GMAC), taxpayers are being rewarded by Chrysler's parent company, Fiat, announcing that it is preparing to build its Jeep brand vehicles in China. In addition, according to a Bloomberg report, Fiat may end up building all of its vehicles in China, threatening the loss of more manufacturing jobs should the decision be carried out to move Chrysler manufacturing out of America.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/10/23/bailed-out-chrysler-build-jeeps-china

SteyrAUG

10-23-12, 15:42

If you want to "Buy American" you better be looking at a BMW.

austinN4

10-23-12, 16:04

Just in time for the election! Let's hope people pay attention to this.

SteyrAUG

10-23-12, 16:21

Just in time for the election! Let's hope people pay attention to this.

Those that care, already know. Those who don't know, don't care.

Moose-Knuckle

10-23-12, 17:01

Does not surprise me in the least, but it is a bitter pill to swollow to see an icon of Americana like the Jeep being built in Red China.

Isn't deindustrialization grand . . . :suicide:

I surmise that it is only a matter of time before the .gov lowers their safety protocols so everyone here will start driving the cheap POS cars from China and India.

jwfuhrman

10-23-12, 17:02

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, OVER?

Seriously, WTF!? I can't even express myself in words how pissed off this makes me.

GeorgiaBoy

10-23-12, 17:26

Disappointing.

An Undocumented Worker

10-23-12, 17:55

Are they going to produce jeeps in china for sale in the US, or are they making em in china to be sold in asia?

chadbag

10-23-12, 18:08

Are they going to produce jeeps in china for sale in the US, or are they making em in china to be sold in asia?

This is a good question. I am wondering as well.

Reading the article linked to from inside the article in the OP link, it sounds like this is in addition to production here and would be for the Asian market.

Here is the Bloomberg article that implies this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-21/fiat-says-china-may-build-all-jeep-models-as-suv-demand-climbs.html

FWIW, it sounds like Chrysler was making Jeeps in Asia before Fiat became involved, and Chrysler has long mad Jeep and the Chrysler Minivans in Europe for that market.

---

FChen17213

10-23-12, 18:10

Not 100% sure but I do think that many Ford parts and Chevy parts are already made in China. Want to buy American? BMW or Toyota might be a better bet these days than GM or Ford. American Unions and wages here are killing us. Want to stop all these jobs going overseas? Let's let our own workers work harder, smarter, and for less pay than what they are paid now. It is a bitter pill that we will have to swallow.

If Jose Martinez or Ching Chong is willing to do the exact same work for less pay, guess where the corporations are going to put their jobs? Since the corporation's goal is to maximize profit, can you really blame them? Is GM really still an American company? Is Toyota Japanese? BMW German? I don't know. They are all publicly traded companies. Some rich Algerian guy can buy lots of GM stock. Does that make GM an Algerian company? If the majority of Toyota stock was owned by Americans, would that make Toyota an American company? Your guess is as good as mine.

lethal dose

10-23-12, 18:33

Will they all be made there or are the expanding there to make them more available to foreign markets?

CarlosDJackal

10-23-12, 19:26

Just in time for the election! Let's hope people pay attention to this.

:lol:

Oh, you were serious? :blink:

kmrtnsn

10-23-12, 19:38

From Autoblog, a well respected online trade source of information.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/22/jeep-to-build-all-model-lines-in-china/

Bold italics are mine.

Jeep to build all model lines in China?

By Chris Paukert RSS feed

Posted Oct 22nd 2012 4:29PM

We're quite used to seeing Jeep knockoffs come out of Asia (e.g. SsangYong Korando generations one through three), but if a new report is to be believed, we may start seeing the fair dinkum being built in Asia once again, too.

According to Bloomberg, Chrysler parent Fiat is in serious negotiations with its Chinese joint venture partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group, over plans to build Jeeps locally. Of course, the brand previously built models in China before Fiat came into its management picture, but now there's talk of possibly assembling more than one model – and possibly the entire brand portfolio – in China. The additional capacity would likely only augment Jeep's US output, not replace it.

Jeep currently builds all of its models in the US, but it has been enjoying rapidly growing overseas sales and is looking to capitalize on its momentum. Bloomberg notes that the marque is targeting sales of 500,000 overseas units, which would represent a three-fold increase over its 2009 numbers. In fact, more than three out of four overseas deliveries for Chrysler brands this year have carried a seven-slot grille. Demand for the Grand Cherokee and Compass models in China are said to be particularly strong.

kmrtnsn

10-23-12, 19:44

Two from Bloomberg. The first article is the source of information for the OP's Blogger's article. Funny, the data from the Blooberg article was completely twisted out of character to fit the blogger's assertions.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-21/fiat-says-china-may-build-all-jeep-models-as-suv-demand-climbs

Bloomberg News
Fiat Says Jeep Output May Return to China as Demand Rises
By Craig Trudell on October 22, 2012

Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Fiat is in “very detailed conversations” with its Chinese partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. (2238), about making Jeeps in the world’s largest auto market, said Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia. Chrysler hasn’t built Jeeps there since before Fiat took control in 2009.

“The volume opportunity for us is very significant,” Manley, who is also president of the Jeep brand, said in an interview at Chrysler’s Auburn Hills, Michigan, headquarters. “We’re reviewing the opportunities within existing capacity” as well as “should we be localizing the entire Jeep portfolio or some of the Jeep portfolio.”

Chrysler, which entered an alliance with Turin, Italy-based Fiat as part of its U.S. government-backed bankruptcy, is relying on growth in China to counter weakness in Europe’s auto market. The automaker is targeting 500,000 annual sales outside North America by 2014, more than triple its overseas deliveries in 2009.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models at plants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China.
Asia’s Strength

International sales for Chrysler climbed 22 percent to 153,154 this year through September, according to the company. The Jeep brand accounted for more than three of every four of those deliveries, with sales surging 54 percent to 117,189.

“We’ve grown much stronger in Asia to make up or compensate for some of the difficulties in Europe,” Manley said. Europe will be in “very difficult, tough times” through at least 2013, he said.

Boosted by strong demand for the Grand Cherokee and Compass sport-utility vehicles, Jeep sales in China have more than doubled to 33,463 this year through September. The brand topped total deliveries for all of 2011 by July of this year.

Chrysler’s 2014 international sales target is “certainly within reach,” Manley said. The European auto market is on track to plunge in 2012 by the most in 19 years, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association.

“Given what we see around the world, it is stretching for sure, but it’s not something we’ve given up on,” he said.

Fiat and Guangzhou’s plant in Changsha in central China has initial annual capacity of 140,000 cars and is capable of eventually assembling 500,000 vehicles per year. The automakers will add production of a new vehicle to the factory roughly every 12 months and began building the Fiat Viaggio compact there in June.

To contact the reporters on this story: Craig Trudell in Southfield, Michigan, at ctrudell1@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Jamie Butters at jbutters@bloomberg.net

Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Tariffs
By Tim Higgins - May 21, 2012 5:00 PM PT

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-22/jeeps-sell-for-189-750-as-china-demand-offsets-tariffs.html

The Jeep store in south Beijing near the Timberland and London Fog outlets carries the season’s latest offerings of branded shirts, shoes, belts and backpacks. Not for sale here: Jeep sport-utility vehicles.

Jeep gear is so popular in China that there are more than 1,500 licensed clothing outlets in the country, where only 120 auto dealers sell the brand. While Jeep has a strong image connected to an adventurous lifestyle, three decades of changing ownership have left it without local production and missing out on surging demand for SUVs in the world’s largest vehicle market.
Enlarge image Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Import Tax

A Chrysler Group LLC Jeep sport utility vehicle (SUV) sits parked under red lanterns in Beijing, China. Photographer: Keith Bedford/Bloomberg
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 in Promotional Video
1:36

April 12 (Bloomberg) -- The 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 4x4 sport-utility vehicle is seen in a promotional video from Chrysler Group LLC. The vehicle features a 6.4-liter Hemi V-8 engine with 470 horsepower and 465 pound-feet of torque. (Video courtesy of Chrysler Group. Source: Bloomberg)
Enlarge image Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Import Tax

The Jeep Wrangler vehicle is seen during the 2012 Beijing International Automotive Exhibition at China International Exhibition Center in Beijing, China, on April 25, 2012. Photographer: Feng Li/Getty Images

“Our brand awareness and consideration is running way ahead of where our actual volumes are,” Mike Manley, head of the Jeep brand, said in an interview in Beijing last month. “That’s why I can’t say strongly or often enough just what an opportunity China offers for us.”

Jeep sales rose 63 percent last year to 19,013 -- less than three days worth of China sales for General Motors Co. (GM), the top foreign automaker in the market. Detroit-based GM has 2,900 dealers -- more than 24 times the Jeep number -- that sold 2.55 million vehicles last year, mostly Buick, Chevrolet and Wuling models.

Manley, who oversees Asian business for Jeep owner Chrysler Group LLC, said he wants to increase the brand’s sales in China by expanding Chrysler’s dealer network by as much as 29 percent this year and restarting local production by early 2014.

While Ford Motor Co. (F), a late entry to China, is working just to build awareness of its brand and products, Jeep struggles to meet runaway demand.
Well-Known Brand

“It’s not that the brand isn’t known; it’s known,” said Bill Russo, a former China chief for Chrysler. “It’s not that people don’t have a positive impression; they do. It’s just that they can’t get it. They can’t get what’s available around the world here in China, not at anywhere near the price point that you get anywhere else in the world.”

The Jeep brand’s first steps into China as a consumer brand seemed promising in the early 1980s, when military versions of the off-road vehicle were widely recognized.

“It’s amusing to think that when Jeeps were first produced in China, there were few cars on the streets, only three ring roads in Beijing and no freeways from city to city,” Jim Mann, an author-in-residence at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Washington D.C., said in an e-mail. “The enterprise has had a series of problems, but survives, like a cat with nine lives.”
Wrote the Book

Mann wrote a 1989 book called “Beijing Jeep” that detailed the challenges then-owner American Motors Corp. faced in setting up the first U.S. auto-manufacturing partnership in China in the early 1980s. Those challenges were immense, from cultural misunderstandings with then-partner Beijing Automotive Works to the changing ownership of American Motors when purchased by Chrysler Corp. in 1987.

Chrysler itself merged with Daimler-Benz AG in 1998 before the U.S. unit, based in Auburn Hills, Michigan, was sold to Cerberus Capital Management LP in 2006.

By the time Turin, Italy-based Fiat SpA (F) took control of Chrysler and its Jeep brand in 2009 as part of the U.S. automaker’s government-backed bankruptcy reorganization, Jeep’s original manufacturing partner had become Mercedes’s partner. Jeep output in China stopped in 2006.
Lacked Investment

“Chrysler had so many challenges in dealing with the change of ownership that they really couldn’t put the investment and the attention into building up any joint venture in China,” said Russo, the former Chrysler executive, who now is president of auto consultancy Synergistics Inc. “They really scaled back to focus on the crisis back home. Now that the boat is afloat, so to speak, everywhere else, you’ve got to sail it back to China.”

Without an assembly partner, Chrysler has been looking for one in China as required to avoid steep tariffs. Manley also runs Asian operations for Fiat, Chrysler Group’s majority owner. Fiat’s partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group, would be a natural and officials with that company have said they want to build Jeeps.

“Of the options that are out there, which is the easiest to get to? Probably with Fiat’s joint-venture partner, mainly because there’s already a good relationship,” Manley said. Still, he said, there are a number of options for Chrysler in China. “I certainly have got the teams involved in it focused on coming up with the right solution for us by the end of the first half and I like to think we can do that,” Manley said.

It will probably take at least 18 months to begin production after deciding on a partner and receiving government approvals, he said.
Higher Prices

In the meantime, he watches as imported Jeeps continue to see sales growth even though the duties push up prices. The Jeep Grand Cherokee starts at 575,900 yuan, or $91,064. In the U.S., it starts at $26,995, according to company websites. The 2012 Grand Cherokee SRT8 version costs at least 1.2 million yuan, or $189,750, compared with $54,470 in the U.S., according to Edmunds.com.

“Jeep is an asset to Chrysler that could really have a lot of upside,” Russo said. “But they now need to localize these cars. Every competitor is localizing SUVs.”

Deliveries of SUVs will probably increase 16 percent this year to 1.85 million units, the fastest-growing segment of China’s automobile industry, according to the latest forecasts from the state-backed China Association of Automobile Manufacturers. The category grew 20 percent last year, according to CAAM.

Chrysler’s limited product range also makes it harder for the company to expand its dealer network, said Russo, who is based in Beijing.

“This is why Ford is now investing pretty heavily to introduce, I think, 15 models between now and 2015,” he said. “To get your dealers to invest, they have to see an exciting range of products that they can sell in reasonable volume.”
‘Safe, Rugged Car’

In the stand-alone Jeep clothing store, the walls are decorated with black-and-white photos of military jeeps as well as modern-day Wranglers. The brand’s ruggedness image led Ding Qi, a Shanghai businessman, to buy his wife a Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2004.

“I wanted to buy her a safe, rugged car, not one of those dainty subcompacts,” he said in an interview.

They use the SUV to go on drives with a local Jeep club. This year, the club, which has 200 members, plans to take a 48- day cross-country trek from Shanghai to Tibet to Nepal and back.

“A Jeep driver is one who doesn’t give up when faced with adversity,” Ding said. “That’s the impression I get because we’ve had to deal with floods, landslides closing off roads and other obstacles, but the club members always pull together.”
‘Sense of Superiority’

Yang Yang, 35, replaced her 2004 Grand Cherokee with a Volkswagen Tiguan this year because, she said, she thought the newer Jeeps had become less rugged.

“You don’t really feel it driving in the city, but when you get into the mountains or on a riverbed, you have this sense of superiority and joy,” she said of her old Jeep. “It’s hard to describe to people who don’t drive a Jeep and I’ve not had the same feeling from other SUVs -- not the Tiguan that I’m driving now.”

The vehicle’s capabilities are so spectacular that sometimes they draw a crowd, she recalled.

“I love the Jeep for its ruggedness,” she said. “I remember one time we were going deep into the mountains in Anhui province and the villagers from surrounding villages came out to watch us.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Tim Higgins in Southfield, Michigan, at thiggins21@bloomberg.net.

Kokopelli

10-23-12, 19:47

I owned and drove Jeeps for years.. They sucked from about the 80's until Chrysler redid the line and came out with the TJ in 1996-7.. The best Jeeps ever built.. By 2005 (my last Rubicon) they had once again became a POS. At 24K my Rubicon was falling apart.. In 2008 I traded it for a Toyota FJ.. never looked back.. FWIW.. Ron

Mjolnir

10-23-12, 20:21

American Unions and wages here are killing us. Want to stop all these jobs going overseas? Let's let our own workers work harder, smarter, and for less pay than what they are paid now. It is a bitter pill that we will have to swallow...

Please be the first to volunteer cutting your wages [and benefits] to be "competitive with" Mexico and China.

Many SO-CALLED "conservatives" spout what you have without giving it much thought. With the falling dollar/inflation how in Hell do you bring US wages - YOUR fellow man [no less] - to Third World or Developing Nation wages?

How about bringing tariffs back on imported goods and services and removing the "person" status [of corporations]?

It never ceases to amaze me how people are quick to claim that others make too much money and should have their pay and benefits reduced to that of Third World status.

Don't worry. It's coming...

Kokopelli

10-23-12, 20:26

Please be the first to volunteer cutting your wages to be competitive with Mexico and China.

Many SO-CALLED "conservatives" spout what you have without giving it much thought. With the falling dollar/inflation how in Hell do you bring US wages - YOUR fellow man - to Third World or Developing Nation wages?

How about bringing tariffs back on imported goods and services and removing the "person" status?

It never ceases to amaze me how people are quick to claim that others make too much money and should have their pay and benefits reduced to that of Third World status.

Don't worry. It's coming...

You're spot on here.. That's the deal.. Ron

chadbag

10-23-12, 20:41

Please be the first to volunteer cutting your wages [and benefits] to be "competitive with" Mexico and China.

VW, BMW, Toyota, and many others seem to be doing fine in the US and building new plants. I wonder why the big 3 have had more problems?

Might it be that the big 3 are unionized, and the others aren't?

Many SO-CALLED "conservatives" spout what you have without giving it much thought. With the falling dollar/inflation how in Hell do you bring US wages - YOUR fellow man [no less] - to Third World or Developing Nation wages?

How about bringing tariffs back on imported goods and services and removing the "person" status [of corporations]?

It never ceases to amaze me how people are quick to claim that others make too much money and should have their pay and benefits reduced to that of Third World status.

Don't worry. It's coming...

Kokopelli

10-23-12, 20:46

VW, BMW, Toyota, and many others seem to be doing fine in the US and building new plants. I wonder why the big 3 have had more problems?

Might it be that the big 3 are unionized, and the others aren't?

Indeed.. and possibly because they have been doing it here a lot longer. The unions come from a day when people weren't worth very much and have certainly corrupted over the years. We may be approaching a day like that again and thus it'll start all over. That seems to be the way of things.. IMO.. Ron

Honu

10-23-12, 21:18

MB is even making some cars in the US now I think ? along with the others listed ? funny in a sad way how the ones bailed out are the ones really failing !

6933

10-23-12, 21:20

Both of our Jeeps were made in US. May be last Jeeps we buy. Straight 6= bombproof. 5.7L, so far, shits and gets. GL 550 is looking good.

Mjolnir

10-23-12, 22:08

The Big Three are "hurting" because of *retirement benefits* - of so they claim.

You know the wages and benefits that made Detroit and Oakland County (up until 2007 the second wealthiest county in the nation supposedly).

Mjolnir

10-23-12, 22:12

VW, BMW, Toyota, and many others seem to be doing fine in the US and building new plants. I wonder why the big 3 have had more problems?

Might it be that the big 3 are unionized, and the others aren't?

Check the benefits. They come here because of CHEAPER wage structure than their own nations, they don't pay taxes for work done on the premises, they have received tax abatements or reduced property costs locally and sometimes at the state level and they avoid tariffs.

SOWT

10-23-12, 22:18

Please be the first to volunteer cutting your wages [and benefits] to be "competitive with" Mexico and China.

Many SO-CALLED "conservatives" spout what you have without giving it much thought. With the falling dollar/inflation how in Hell do you bring US wages - YOUR fellow man [no less] - to Third World or Developing Nation wages?

How about bringing tariffs back on imported goods and services and removing the "person" status [of corporations]?

It never ceases to amaze me how people are quick to claim that others make too much money and should have their pay and benefits reduced to that of Third World status.

Don't worry. It's coming...

May happen quicker then you think; one report says Obamacare will force people into part-time positions in-order to avoid paying the initial insurance requirements.

Going from a 40hr week to a 28 hour week will cripple most families.

The_War_Wagon

10-23-12, 22:25

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/Scouting/JEEP1.jpg

Last of the Daimler Commanders - ditto for my wife's Dodge Caravan. Won't buy a Chinaysler - THAT'S for sure! :mad:

kmrtnsn

10-23-12, 22:50

Here is the article from Jalopnik, another blog but with a good reputation for accuracy. As in the OP's news article, the Bloomberg article that I posted above is the original source. Funny how the OP's source cherry-picked a couple of lines from the article to completely mis-characterize the data. Jalopnik pretty much cuts to the chase, making this a newsworthy event if you are Chinese Jeep buyer, or a Fiat/Chrysler shareholder.

Bold italics are mine.

http://jalopnik.com/5953644/jeep-production-back-in-china-ford-plans-more-for-flat-rock-and-cheaper-nissan-leafs-are-coming?tag=The-Morning-Shift

1st Gear: Chrysler May Build All Its Jeep Models In China

Bloomberg reports that Chrysler is planning to return Jeep production to China, and may eventually assemble all its Jeep models there for sale in the Chinese market. According to Bloomberg, Fiat is in "very detailed conversations" with its Chinese partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group , about making Jeeps in the world's largest auto market, said Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia. Chrysler hasn't built Jeeps there since before Fiat took control in 2009. You might remember that Chrysler ran into some problems with its technology being stolen. But Fiat sees a big opportunity for Jeep in China, especially in light of the market's collapse in Europe. "The volume opportunity for us is very significant," Manley says.

chadbag

10-23-12, 23:29

Check the benefits. They come here because of CHEAPER wage structure than their own nations, they don't pay taxes for work done on the premises, they have received tax abatements or reduced property costs locally and sometimes at the state level and they avoid tariffs.

Articles I have read with interviews of the workers say they are happy with the pay AND benefits. I have not read an article in a while on it so don't have any links. But I have read several articles in the last year that talk about the influx of foreign auto manufacturing in the US.

They are building cars here, for this market, because the cheap dollar makes it attractive compared to building them in Japan/Europe at the higher cost of the Yen/Euro compared to the dollar and then selling them here.

Most of the plants the workers have voted down unions.

The UAW has shot themselves in the head long term with their demands. No one is saying that they have to accept 3rd world wages, but the unrealistic level of pay and benefits for factory assembly work means they will have to get realistic or face loss of jobs as they go overseas.

-

Gramps

10-24-12, 01:07

jwfuhrman

10-24-12, 07:44

They wont be shutting production of the Jeep line down in the US. They are just expanding to the China market. Jeeps will still be made here in the US to be sold to the US market. They are just building factories in China to meet the Chinese market for the Jeep line.

Can I say I blame them? Hell no, its the same thing as VW, BMW, Toyota building factories over here to meet our market needs. Its smart business and no American is going to loose their jobs.

FromMyColdDeadHand

10-24-12, 08:17

And how many of you here who don't like this going to China, STILL shop at WalMart, thus supporting China? Or is it OK for some things and NOT others? I avoid Wally World for this very reason. IF, I have to go there, I will read the manufacture label, and only buy made in America @ Wally World. Yes there are a FEW things there, made here.

They were looking at putting a Walmart up near me and the locals went nuts. Walmart tried to appease them by saying that they wouldn't sell guns or ammo there- the only thing I buy at Walmart is WWB. They made all kinds of claims that Walmart puts local merchants out of business. I called BS. Walmart doesn't put local merchants out of business, the buying customers do when they shift their purchases to Walmart. Walmart can offer all kinds of low prices all day long, but if people buy from local stores it won't matter a wit. PLUS if you are competing with Walmart with the same crap that they sell but at a higher price, you really are screwing people.

And stop calling it an 'auto bailout'. It was an auto union bailout. Just ask the white-collar workers at Delphi that got totally screwed, or the public pension plans in Indiana that got decimated while the unions went to the front of the line, or the dealers that got whacked. If that is 'saving' the auto industry, I can't wait for Obamacare.

Moltke

10-24-12, 08:53

So does that make my Jeep a collectible, "pre-China" model? Sweet.

rjacobs

10-24-12, 08:57

Please be the first to volunteer cutting your wages [and benefits] to be "competitive with" Mexico and China.

Many SO-CALLED "conservatives" spout what you have without giving it much thought. With the falling dollar/inflation how in Hell do you bring US wages - YOUR fellow man [no less] - to Third World or Developing Nation wages?

How about bringing tariffs back on imported goods and services and removing the "person" status [of corporations]?

It never ceases to amaze me how people are quick to claim that others make too much money and should have their pay and benefits reduced to that of Third World status.

Don't worry. It's coming...

Exactly. We run into this in the airline industry daily. Everybody else is willing to volunteer you to take a paycut so they can get cheaper flights. How bout you take a pay cut by paying more for your ticket so I can get a pay raise. Thats not fair according to the same person who just told you to take a paycut.:rolleyes:

R/Tdrvr

10-24-12, 11:05

Those that care, already know. Those who don't know, don't care.

More like those who support Obama don't care. China wants to have Jeeps? Build them here and ship them over. Funny how the President bashes Romney for supposedly wanting to ship jobs to China, but not a peep about this. Or the fact that the head of his own Jobs Council has shipped GE jobs to China. And it amazes me to see how many people are driving foreign cars with Obama stickers on them.

I've said this before, if you support the President, it means you supported the auto bailout. You should be driving a GM or Chrysler car/truck.

glocktogo

10-24-12, 11:07

All automobile manufacturers are global companies these days. It doesn't matter where they're incorporated at. Whomever you buy a car from still supports jobs in the U.S.. Someone has to import them, offload them at the dock, enter them for U.S. registry, transport them, sell them, order parts for and service them, etc..

As globalization marches on, we'll all wind up with a lower standard of living. It's inevitable. Exceptionalism is slowly being phased out. :(

Littlelebowski

10-24-12, 11:12

newyork

10-24-12, 11:16

70% of GMCs are already. Cadillac was a sponsor at a pro communist film unveiling in China.

Mjolnir

10-24-12, 13:31

Simple solution:

[A] Corporations are NOT Persons;
[B] Tariffs are to protect OUR Mfg Industry and pay for Federal Gov't.

NWPilgrim

10-24-12, 14:27

The problem is we apply one set of rules to domestic manufacturers (OSHA, Unemployment, SSA, EPA, DOT, Healthcare, etc.) and practically no rules to foreign (slave, child, hours, pollution, safety, etc.).

Pretty dang hard for a domestic company to compete on price under those conditions, so the other product/service characteristics have to far, far outweigh price to stay competitive.

We should level the playing field. Require foreign manufacturers to prove through independent oversight they comply with all of our rules (not bloody likely!), eliminate our rules, or slap tariffs on imports to match overhead costs of domestic (of course this would be corrupted and twisted by favoritism).

While tariffs seem like the easiest solution, I suspect it would just lead to further manipulation (more mercantilism). I think removing the onerous regulations from domestic producers would be the more libertarian approach. Once you get government out of the business of regulating business then we might be able to eliminate the favoritism currently implemented toward large corporations that squashes small business. Businesses would be far less able to oppress workers if they were not being protected by government. Unions then might serve a viable purpose once again as long as they were not protected by government either.

Very complex situation where you can not just unravel one thread, or add another. I doubt our politicians will make the effort to doa comprehensive rethink on domestic manufacturing so we are likely to see more and more move to the lowest cost labor pool: China.

RancidSumo

10-24-12, 15:05

Simple solution:

[A] Corporations are NOT Persons;
[B] Tariffs are to protect OUR Mfg Industry and pay for Federal Gov't.

To hell with comparative advantage and division of labor! Who needs silly things like economic efficiency?

People that call for tariffs have a poor understanding of basic economics.

GeorgiaBoy

10-24-12, 15:11

China is nothing but a 1870s-1910's America:

Low pay, child labor, long hours, strict rules for employees, zero to no benefits, but is able to out produce everyone.

I'm not saying that those things are "ok", but it's hard to compete with a comparable Chinese factory if you are paying your workers $30/hour+ to put two parts together.

FChen17213

10-24-12, 15:13

For all those people who think that they can impose American type OSHA rules and regulations on other countries, they better have another thought coming. You can thank bleeding heart liberals for all the ridiculous rules and regulations we have. You can also thank liberals for the 40 hr work week. America would be more competitive in the real world if we worked a 60 hr or more work week. Simple as that.

As far as people volunteering to cut their wages? I can't speak for others, but that's not too applicable to me as a self-employed business owner. I simply get what I can get from my customers. Yes, I know if they made less, they'd probably be able to pay me less. So yes. That's why I call it a bitter pill we will all have to swallow.

I think most of us realize that the next generation in America is going to have a lower standard of living than the current generation. Eventually, all this crushing debt and living over our earnings is going to come crashing down on all of us.

Outrider

10-24-12, 18:08

For all those people who think that they can impose American type OSHA rules and regulations on other countries, they better have another thought coming. You can thank bleeding heart liberals for all the ridiculous rules and regulations we have. You can also thank liberals for the 40 hr work week. America would be more competitive in the real world if we worked a 60 hr or more work week. Simple as that.

Yeah, I miss slavery too... Seriously, we're not losing out to China because we don't work as many hours as they do. We're losing manufacturing jobs to China because our wages are higher. We have costs that we can't cheat or steal our way out of paying. Besides, China needs to have nets to catch jumpers at their factories. Do we really want to emulate their awesome working conditions?

Competing with China in how they do business is nothing more than a race to the bottom.

Mjolnir

10-24-12, 20:47

To hell with comparative advantage and division of labor! Who needs silly things like economic efficiency?

People that call for tariffs have a poor understanding of basic economics.
So says you. Check your founding documents on tariffs...

RancidSumo

10-24-12, 21:48

I wasn't aware that our country's founding documents contained economic treatises.

SMETNA

10-24-12, 22:51

My 2011 Liberty was built in Toledo. The engine came from Detroit (Mack Ave plant), the transfer case from Buffalo NY, and the transmission from Kokomo Indiana.

Also, stop bitching about the bailout. It was a loan, not a bailout. And it's been paid back in full by Chrysler/Fiat. GM's has not. Actually, Chrysler has been doing so well the past couple years that they are now propping up Fiat, who have been in the red for several quarters. Sergio Marchionne has even floated the idea of moving Fiats' HQ to America, because the Italian government is so tax-happy.

If they are planning on making Chinese Jeeps to sell to Chinese buyers, then good on them. If they try selling them over here, I won't buy one.

iPhone/Tapatalk

Voodoo_Man

10-24-12, 23:11

Woohoo cheap jeeps!

Thanks obama

munch520

10-24-12, 23:24

I'm going to repost this again, since no one other than Lebowski even acknowledged kmrtnsn's posts.

From Autoblog, a well respected online trade source of information.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/22/jeep-to-build-all-model-lines-in-china/

Bold italics are mine.

Jeep to build all model lines in China?

By Chris Paukert RSS feed

Posted Oct 22nd 2012 4:29PM

We're quite used to seeing Jeep knockoffs come out of Asia (e.g. SsangYong Korando generations one through three), but if a new report is to be believed, we may start seeing the fair dinkum being built in Asia once again, too.

According to Bloomberg, Chrysler parent Fiat is in serious negotiations with its Chinese joint venture partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group, over plans to build Jeeps locally. Of course, the brand previously built models in China before Fiat came into its management picture, but now there's talk of possibly assembling more than one model – and possibly the entire brand portfolio – in China. The additional capacity would likely only augment Jeep's US output, not replace it.

Jeep currently builds all of its models in the US, but it has been enjoying rapidly growing overseas sales and is looking to capitalize on its momentum. Bloomberg notes that the marque is targeting sales of 500,000 overseas units, which would represent a three-fold increase over its 2009 numbers. In fact, more than three out of four overseas deliveries for Chrysler brands this year have carried a seven-slot grille. Demand for the Grand Cherokee and Compass models in China are said to be particularly strong.

Two from Bloomberg. The first article is the source of information for the OP's Blogger's article. Funny, the data from the Blooberg article was completely twisted out of character to fit the blogger's assertions.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-21/fiat-says-china-may-build-all-jeep-models-as-suv-demand-climbs

Bloomberg News
Fiat Says Jeep Output May Return to China as Demand Rises
By Craig Trudell on October 22, 2012

Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Fiat is in “very detailed conversations” with its Chinese partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. (2238), about making Jeeps in the world’s largest auto market, said Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia. Chrysler hasn’t built Jeeps there since before Fiat took control in 2009.

“The volume opportunity for us is very significant,” Manley, who is also president of the Jeep brand, said in an interview at Chrysler’s Auburn Hills, Michigan, headquarters. “We’re reviewing the opportunities within existing capacity” as well as “should we be localizing the entire Jeep portfolio or some of the Jeep portfolio.”

Chrysler, which entered an alliance with Turin, Italy-based Fiat as part of its U.S. government-backed bankruptcy, is relying on growth in China to counter weakness in Europe’s auto market. The automaker is targeting 500,000 annual sales outside North America by 2014, more than triple its overseas deliveries in 2009.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models at plants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China.
Asia’s Strength

International sales for Chrysler climbed 22 percent to 153,154 this year through September, according to the company. The Jeep brand accounted for more than three of every four of those deliveries, with sales surging 54 percent to 117,189.

“We’ve grown much stronger in Asia to make up or compensate for some of the difficulties in Europe,” Manley said. Europe will be in “very difficult, tough times” through at least 2013, he said.

Boosted by strong demand for the Grand Cherokee and Compass sport-utility vehicles, Jeep sales in China have more than doubled to 33,463 this year through September. The brand topped total deliveries for all of 2011 by July of this year.

Chrysler’s 2014 international sales target is “certainly within reach,” Manley said. The European auto market is on track to plunge in 2012 by the most in 19 years, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association.

“Given what we see around the world, it is stretching for sure, but it’s not something we’ve given up on,” he said.

Fiat and Guangzhou’s plant in Changsha in central China has initial annual capacity of 140,000 cars and is capable of eventually assembling 500,000 vehicles per year. The automakers will add production of a new vehicle to the factory roughly every 12 months and began building the Fiat Viaggio compact there in June.

To contact the reporters on this story: Craig Trudell in Southfield, Michigan, at ctrudell1@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Jamie Butters at jbutters@bloomberg.net

Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Tariffs
By Tim Higgins - May 21, 2012 5:00 PM PT

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-22/jeeps-sell-for-189-750-as-china-demand-offsets-tariffs.html

The Jeep store in south Beijing near the Timberland and London Fog outlets carries the season’s latest offerings of branded shirts, shoes, belts and backpacks. Not for sale here: Jeep sport-utility vehicles.

Jeep gear is so popular in China that there are more than 1,500 licensed clothing outlets in the country, where only 120 auto dealers sell the brand. While Jeep has a strong image connected to an adventurous lifestyle, three decades of changing ownership have left it without local production and missing out on surging demand for SUVs in the world’s largest vehicle market.
Enlarge image Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Import Tax

A Chrysler Group LLC Jeep sport utility vehicle (SUV) sits parked under red lanterns in Beijing, China. Photographer: Keith Bedford/Bloomberg
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 in Promotional Video
1:36

April 12 (Bloomberg) -- The 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 4x4 sport-utility vehicle is seen in a promotional video from Chrysler Group LLC. The vehicle features a 6.4-liter Hemi V-8 engine with 470 horsepower and 465 pound-feet of torque. (Video courtesy of Chrysler Group. Source: Bloomberg)
Enlarge image Jeeps Sell for $189,750 as China Demand Offsets Import Tax

The Jeep Wrangler vehicle is seen during the 2012 Beijing International Automotive Exhibition at China International Exhibition Center in Beijing, China, on April 25, 2012. Photographer: Feng Li/Getty Images

“Our brand awareness and consideration is running way ahead of where our actual volumes are,” Mike Manley, head of the Jeep brand, said in an interview in Beijing last month. “That’s why I can’t say strongly or often enough just what an opportunity China offers for us.”

Jeep sales rose 63 percent last year to 19,013 -- less than three days worth of China sales for General Motors Co. (GM), the top foreign automaker in the market. Detroit-based GM has 2,900 dealers -- more than 24 times the Jeep number -- that sold 2.55 million vehicles last year, mostly Buick, Chevrolet and Wuling models.

Manley, who oversees Asian business for Jeep owner Chrysler Group LLC, said he wants to increase the brand’s sales in China by expanding Chrysler’s dealer network by as much as 29 percent this year and restarting local production by early 2014.

While Ford Motor Co. (F), a late entry to China, is working just to build awareness of its brand and products, Jeep struggles to meet runaway demand.
Well-Known Brand

“It’s not that the brand isn’t known; it’s known,” said Bill Russo, a former China chief for Chrysler. “It’s not that people don’t have a positive impression; they do. It’s just that they can’t get it. They can’t get what’s available around the world here in China, not at anywhere near the price point that you get anywhere else in the world.”

The Jeep brand’s first steps into China as a consumer brand seemed promising in the early 1980s, when military versions of the off-road vehicle were widely recognized.

“It’s amusing to think that when Jeeps were first produced in China, there were few cars on the streets, only three ring roads in Beijing and no freeways from city to city,” Jim Mann, an author-in-residence at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Washington D.C., said in an e-mail. “The enterprise has had a series of problems, but survives, like a cat with nine lives.”
Wrote the Book

Mann wrote a 1989 book called “Beijing Jeep” that detailed the challenges then-owner American Motors Corp. faced in setting up the first U.S. auto-manufacturing partnership in China in the early 1980s. Those challenges were immense, from cultural misunderstandings with then-partner Beijing Automotive Works to the changing ownership of American Motors when purchased by Chrysler Corp. in 1987.

Chrysler itself merged with Daimler-Benz AG in 1998 before the U.S. unit, based in Auburn Hills, Michigan, was sold to Cerberus Capital Management LP in 2006.

By the time Turin, Italy-based Fiat SpA (F) took control of Chrysler and its Jeep brand in 2009 as part of the U.S. automaker’s government-backed bankruptcy reorganization, Jeep’s original manufacturing partner had become Mercedes’s partner. Jeep output in China stopped in 2006.
Lacked Investment

“Chrysler had so many challenges in dealing with the change of ownership that they really couldn’t put the investment and the attention into building up any joint venture in China,” said Russo, the former Chrysler executive, who now is president of auto consultancy Synergistics Inc. “They really scaled back to focus on the crisis back home. Now that the boat is afloat, so to speak, everywhere else, you’ve got to sail it back to China.”

Without an assembly partner, Chrysler has been looking for one in China as required to avoid steep tariffs. Manley also runs Asian operations for Fiat, Chrysler Group’s majority owner. Fiat’s partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group, would be a natural and officials with that company have said they want to build Jeeps.

“Of the options that are out there, which is the easiest to get to? Probably with Fiat’s joint-venture partner, mainly because there’s already a good relationship,” Manley said. Still, he said, there are a number of options for Chrysler in China. “I certainly have got the teams involved in it focused on coming up with the right solution for us by the end of the first half and I like to think we can do that,” Manley said.

It will probably take at least 18 months to begin production after deciding on a partner and receiving government approvals, he said.
Higher Prices

In the meantime, he watches as imported Jeeps continue to see sales growth even though the duties push up prices. The Jeep Grand Cherokee starts at 575,900 yuan, or $91,064. In the U.S., it starts at $26,995, according to company websites. The 2012 Grand Cherokee SRT8 version costs at least 1.2 million yuan, or $189,750, compared with $54,470 in the U.S., according to Edmunds.com.

“Jeep is an asset to Chrysler that could really have a lot of upside,” Russo said. “But they now need to localize these cars. Every competitor is localizing SUVs.”

Deliveries of SUVs will probably increase 16 percent this year to 1.85 million units, the fastest-growing segment of China’s automobile industry, according to the latest forecasts from the state-backed China Association of Automobile Manufacturers. The category grew 20 percent last year, according to CAAM.

Chrysler’s limited product range also makes it harder for the company to expand its dealer network, said Russo, who is based in Beijing.

“This is why Ford is now investing pretty heavily to introduce, I think, 15 models between now and 2015,” he said. “To get your dealers to invest, they have to see an exciting range of products that they can sell in reasonable volume.”
‘Safe, Rugged Car’

In the stand-alone Jeep clothing store, the walls are decorated with black-and-white photos of military jeeps as well as modern-day Wranglers. The brand’s ruggedness image led Ding Qi, a Shanghai businessman, to buy his wife a Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2004.

“I wanted to buy her a safe, rugged car, not one of those dainty subcompacts,” he said in an interview.

They use the SUV to go on drives with a local Jeep club. This year, the club, which has 200 members, plans to take a 48- day cross-country trek from Shanghai to Tibet to Nepal and back.

“A Jeep driver is one who doesn’t give up when faced with adversity,” Ding said. “That’s the impression I get because we’ve had to deal with floods, landslides closing off roads and other obstacles, but the club members always pull together.”
‘Sense of Superiority’

Yang Yang, 35, replaced her 2004 Grand Cherokee with a Volkswagen Tiguan this year because, she said, she thought the newer Jeeps had become less rugged.

“You don’t really feel it driving in the city, but when you get into the mountains or on a riverbed, you have this sense of superiority and joy,” she said of her old Jeep. “It’s hard to describe to people who don’t drive a Jeep and I’ve not had the same feeling from other SUVs -- not the Tiguan that I’m driving now.”

The vehicle’s capabilities are so spectacular that sometimes they draw a crowd, she recalled.

“I love the Jeep for its ruggedness,” she said. “I remember one time we were going deep into the mountains in Anhui province and the villagers from surrounding villages came out to watch us.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Tim Higgins in Southfield, Michigan, at thiggins21@bloomberg.net.

BCmJUnKie

10-24-12, 23:57

Woohoo cheap jeeps!

Thanks obama

Do you think they will come down in price? Or go up due to shipping costs of an "Import" vehicle?

I ve been wondering that from the beginning of the thread.

They are gonna be build by employees that get paid HALF and work twice as much...with the money saved....Chrysler will make a KILLING of the US even if they decide to keep the same ridiculous pricetag for a box with wheels.

I love Jeep, I want a 4-door Wrangler more than LIFE itself, The price is ridiculous, and worse...Rubicon and Wrangler hold value like nothing else

munch520

10-25-12, 08:12

Do you think they will come down in price? Or go up due to shipping costs of an "Import" vehicle?

I ve been wondering that from the beginning of the thread.

They are gonna be build by employees that get paid HALF and work twice as much...with the money saved....Chrysler will make a KILLING of the US even if they decide to keep the same ridiculous pricetag for a box with wheels.

I love Jeep, I want a 4-door Wrangler more than LIFE itself, The price is ridiculous, and worse...Rubicon and Wrangler hold value like nothing else

Per the articles posted earlier, I don't think they will be strictly import now. DC is opening plants overseas to augment and support increased business in the US.

Now that they have USB integration, blue tooth, etc. they're much easier to use as daily drivers.

But the prices are nuts...$38-40 are the stickers on Rubi Unlimited's now. As you noted, it's easier to stomach though when the resale is so high (the CR-V and Wrangler have been battling between #1/#2 on resale for the past couple years). But with all the aftermarket support, it's hard not to spend more money on em. Now that I've sleeved the axles and have gears...mine desperately needs 35s...and tires ain't cheap!

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/Jeep/IMG_6068.jpg

lethal dose

10-25-12, 09:11

Nobody actually reads a whole thread... sigh.

Gramps

10-25-12, 11:42

In order for a country to survive well, it HAS to have MORE export, than IMPORT. This is why we USED to have high IMPORT taxes (Tariffs) as we did when we were a more prosperous nation. Now we have things like NAFTA, this along with LOW TARIFFS, have sunk us to our knees. And we are not done sinking our own nation with these actions. We have become a want what we want, and don't give a damn were it came from, or how it was made, just give it to me and do it now. This is just were the supper wealthy want us, money is power, and they will do ANYTHING for power over people. People are proving to be SHEOPLE and they are going to take advantage of the SHEOPLE.

Just because you think that "Importing" creates more jobs, stop and think about the actual # of jobs lost to import, it's not just the manufacturing, it is also the ones making the parts to keep the equipment to dig the ore, the people to make the ore turn into steel, the people/rigs to transport the ore/metal, the outside sources that make the diff parts that are generically produced for ALL U.S. auto's, the need for transportation within our borders to get these products across our nation, the list goes a lot farther and deeper. You should get a grasp on a start to what we loose every time we go import instead of "In-house". Look at the WHOLE picture, not just what you want to see, or some damn "Politician", "Business Man" wants you to see, to further "Their" agenda, think about yourself, your children, your grandchildren, and your fellow U.S. citizen.

Voodoo_Man

10-25-12, 11:54

500grains

10-25-12, 11:54

Toyota rav4s, tacomas and 4 runners are a much better value than Jeeps, due to the cost of United Auto Workers labour.

Spiffums

10-25-12, 12:10

Slappin me a Made in 'Merica! sticker on my 2k Sport and the value will go up 2 grand now :D

munch520

10-25-12, 12:14

Toyota rav4s, tacomas and 4 runners are a much better value than Jeeps, due to the cost of United Auto Workers labour.

Are they?

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/autos/1111/gallery.best_resale_value_cars/index.htm

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/entry/1238/blog.do;jsessionid=41A04E0B0849BF5CEF89EC9AC8FC22E0?p=entry&id=1238

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-top-10-cars/

Voodoo_Man

10-25-12, 12:49

Are they?

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/autos/1111/gallery.best_resale_value_cars/index.htm

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/entry/1238/blog.do;jsessionid=41A04E0B0849BF5CEF89EC9AC8FC22E0?p=entry&id=1238

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-top-10-cars/

Dont mistake websites posts or reviews for actual quality rating. Consider it a form of the media. Who do you think funds some of these websites? Magazines like car and driver have a history of backing US made vehicles over any other regardless of actual facts.

DeltaSierra

10-25-12, 13:56

Are they?

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/autos/1111/gallery.best_resale_value_cars/index.htm

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/entry/1238/blog.do;jsessionid=41A04E0B0849BF5CEF89EC9AC8FC22E0?p=entry&id=1238

http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-top-10-cars/

Oh, my....

You know, I sorta trust my personal experience a bit more than a bunch of links on the internet, and yes, I would MUCH rather have a Toyota (any Toyota) over a Jeep.

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii525/DeltaSierra/IMGP0832_zps8ebad2f5.jpg

This photo was taken in June of 2011. Since that time, the only maintenance on that truck has been oil changes, new tires, bushings in the front end, and....more oil changes.

GeorgiaBoy

10-25-12, 14:30

SteyrAUG

10-25-12, 14:49

So I have a question...

Is this a matter of Jeeps being built in China for the Asian market or is this a matter of all (or most) production being moved to China?

DeltaSierra

10-25-12, 15:02

Many people stick to the mantra that domestic cars are poorly manufactured, which originated in the 90's and early 2000's.

It's not the same any more. Whats even worse, is that despite domestic mfg.'s making much better cars now, people refuse to buy them because of the reputation they got 10-15 years ago, not even giving them a chance despite plenty of positive reviews, both from individual owners, car magazines, car reviewers, and others.

That is simply untrue.

I have experience with late model US made vehicles, and they were just that bad....

Ran a 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 for a while - that thing drank gas like there was no tomorrow, and by the time it had 53 or 54 thousand miles on it, the transmission was already acting up. Ran a 2010 Chevy 1500 - that thing was better on gas, but it was still a piece of junk.

Been fighting with an '03 Ford F350 all summer, and can't get it to run right....

Just had a major hassle with a fairly late model Dodge 3500 - less than 75k on it, and the engine blew up.

Just a couple weeks ago had another major hassle with another Dodge 3500 blowing up, and strewing parts all over the road...

Sorry, but I just don't like fighting with my vehicles to keep them running, so I choose Honda/Toyota....

GeorgiaBoy

10-25-12, 15:16

I don't know what you people do to your vehicles, but me and my family have been using GM's and Ford's forever and never have had these "problems." Mind you, most of us don't keep vehicles past 70-100K before trading them in.

I have a 2009 Sierra 1500 @ 45,000 miles with ZERO problems.
I had a 2004 Sierra 1500 and traded at 90K miles, had zero problems.

My mother and father both have Chevy Tahoes, with with over 70K miles, no problems. Both of them have been trading in Tahoes and getting new ones since the early 90's, no problems with them that I know of.

My younger brother had a 2000 Tahoe until 2009, 130K miles with ZERO problems. Now has a 2009 Sierra with no problems.

Older brother has used F-150's since the early 90's, never had problems with them trading every 100K or so miles.

I'll admit that for the most part imports usually beat American "cars". But when it comes to pickups/SUV's, GM and Ford, and to a lesser extent Chrysler/Dodge, dominate the market.

GeorgiaBoy

10-25-12, 15:19

a 2010 Chevy 1500 - that thing was better on gas, but it was still a piece of junk.

I'm very intrigued by this statement. What exactly made your Silverado a "piece of junk"? Did it ever cause you problems, or are you just saying that?

Honu

10-25-12, 15:29

landcruiser is a suv best in the world :)

GeorgiaBoy

10-25-12, 15:38

Keep in mind I'm not saying Toyotas/Hondas/whatever are not fantastic cars, I'm saying that domestic mfg's aren't the pieces of junk they have the stereotype of being, especially now.

Buy what you want to buy. Whatever makes you happy. Domestics make me happy, I like their looks, features, and selection, and dont have problems with them, so I buy them. To each his own.

chadbag

10-25-12, 15:56

So I have a question...

Is this a matter of Jeeps being built in China for the Asian market or is this a matter of all (or most) production being moved to China?

The former

500grains

10-25-12, 16:06

Various Jeep models have been made in China since the 1980's. Although I fell for the original article, I fail to see how the Bloomberg article is actually news. So Chrysler is making model X in China instead of model Y, big deal. The news would be if those models were destined for the USA.

SteyrAUG

10-25-12, 16:09

The former

I wondered if this was in fact a NON issue. Only makes sense to build them where you need them. If only they did that with American cars for the US market.

Gramps

10-25-12, 16:13

This is now going nowhere, BUT, it is going fast. Bottom line, we need a whole lot LESS import.

500grains

10-25-12, 16:22

2004 Dodge 2500 4x4 v8 bought new.

48,000 miles - transfer case blew
50,000 miles - dash wiring went haywire
56,000 miles - front diff disintegrated
60,000 miles - got rid of it.

Mjolnir

10-25-12, 17:13

I wasn't aware that our country's founding documents contained economic treatises.

You need to actually READ the founders.

Moose-Knuckle

10-25-12, 17:57

I think I'm just going to put this here . . .

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/hearttoyota.jpg

Edit to add:

This was a quote from his thread on assault boots but it applies here too . . .

I'm all for made in the USA but I won't use inferior equipment just because it is made here - case in point the American made Oakley assault boots vs the Chinese ones; no comparison in comfort or quality

If a product of equal or better quality is made in the USA I will even pay more to use it - but if a product from overseas is superior then I personally don't care if it is made on the south side of Pluto

Remember Americans have made our fair share of dogs ; ever heard of the M60 machine gun or Sherman tank ? Americans suffered because of the inferior design details of both weapons when foreign designs were proven to be far superior

Sometimes people need to take off your red- white- blue rosé colored glasses

NWPilgrim

10-25-12, 17:58

I wondered if this was in fact a NON issue. Only makes sense to build them where you need them. If only they did that with American cars for the US market.

It is still exporting jobs. Rather than a US company making cars here and exporting to bring back money, a multinational makes cars over there, the jobs are over there, and much of the money stays there (wages, capital investment, taxes, etc).

China is just a very bad place for our manufacturers to be investing in (in the long term). China is not above stealing technology, using substandard materials, etc. I work for a multinational firm and one of our newest product lines is being built in China. A neighbor who happens to be a materials testing engineer with the same company says the subcomponents he has tested from China are crap. China benefits greatly from companies building plants over there, just as we would if the plants were here: demand for education and technical training, better funding for those schools, more jobs, manufacturing infrastructure (machine shops, services, construction, electrical grid, deliveries, chemicals, etc.). All of that manufacturing infrastructure then allows them to copy or develop new products based off that new plateau of technology.

So it is a HUGE loss for us even if the products made by "US companies" are made in China and not the US. China is very smart to insist that if a company wants to sell to Chinese that it be made in a Chinese plant. We should do the same perhaps.

munch520

10-25-12, 19:14

Oh, my....

You know, I sorta trust my personal experience a bit more than a bunch of links on the internet, and yes, I would MUCH rather have a Toyota (any Toyota) over a Jeep.

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii525/DeltaSierra/IMGP0832_zps8ebad2f5.jpg

This photo was taken in June of 2011. Since that time, the only maintenance on that truck has been oil changes, new tires, bushings in the front end, and....more oil changes.

Right. They much just haphazardly compile their data with no rhyme or reason. Do you set the trade in and private party values or do they?

I trust my personal experience too. My WK Cherokee (2005 4.7L v8) had well over 100k with just oil changes. No 'fighting to keep it running'.

We also have 4 Chevy diesels at the farm that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Been towing 4-8 horse trailers their whole lives without 1 issue.

SteyrAUG

10-25-12, 20:10

It is still exporting jobs.

Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like creation of new jobs in a new market and additional revenue for a US company.

Would it be better if they simply doubled US production and hired additional workers to make more Jeeps to ship to China? Sure it would, but it would be more cost effective to build a factory where the new market is and hire local labor. And that is MUCH, MUCH different from "let's shut down the US factory and move everything to China."

500grains

10-25-12, 21:42

Looks like the original story may be accurate.

In another potential blow for the president's Ohio reelection campaign, Jeep, the rugged brand President Obama once said symbolized American freedom, is considering giving up on the United States and shifting production to China.

Such a move would crash the economy in towns like Toledo, Ohio, where Jeeps are made and supplied, and rob the community of the economic security they thought Obama's auto bailout assured them.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/jeep-an-obama-favorite-looks-to-shift-production-to-china/article/2511703#.UIn4LsVZXg-

RancidSumo

10-25-12, 22:24

You need to actually READ the founders.

Feel free to post a link to a document where any of the founders give a detailed examination of the economics behind tariffs.

http://mises.org/daily/1388

http://library.mises.org/books/Henry%20George/Protection%20or%20Free%20Trade%20An%20Examination%20of%20the%20Tariff%20Question,%20with%20Especial%20Regard%20to%20the%20Interests%20of%20Labor.pdf

http://wallstreetallstars.com/murray-rothbard-tariffs-inflation-anti-trust-and-cartels-american-economy-lecture-6/

http://mises.org/document/997/Tariff-History-of-the-United-States

http://mises.org/document/3250

http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1158.html

And probably most important for you-

http://mises.org/media/4518/Whos-Protected-By-Tariffs

http://mises.org/document/6785/Economics-in-One-Lesson

NWPilgrim

10-25-12, 23:44

Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like creation of new jobs in a new market and additional revenue for a US company.

Would it be better if they simply doubled US production and hired additional workers to make more Jeeps to ship to China? Sure it would, but it would be more cost effective to build a factory where the new market is and hire local labor. And that is MUCH, MUCH different from "let's shut down the US factory and move everything to China."

Well of course using cheap local labor and avoiding US mfg regulations is good for the company bottomline. Some money comes back but only 5% perhaps. Most stays in China along with all the be side benefits.

But before getting too supportive of a company realize it is only nominally US. Multinationals are not loyal or care much about any one country. In fact they actively lobby for laws detrimental to our country. They could care less where they get the labor.

What would be good for our country is lower domestic regulations and increase tariffs.

chadbag

10-26-12, 02:58

Looks like the original story may be accurate.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/jeep-an-obama-favorite-looks-to-shift-production-to-china/article/2511703#.UIn4LsVZXg-

That article does not actually say anything different in terms of actual quotes and facts, and is a "comprehension problem" by the writer.

He equates "the entire lineup" being produced in China with "all production" being in China. What the Chrysler guy was saying that all Jeep models may end up being made in China, for the Chinese/Asian market(s), which is different than before, when they just made one or two models in China and other models were presumably imported.

---

Mjolnir

10-26-12, 07:14

Toyota rav4s, tacomas and 4 runners are a much better value than Jeeps, due to the cost of United Auto Workers labour.

I am an auto engineer. Prove your UAW claim.

Mjolnir

10-26-12, 07:19

Feel free to post a link to a document where any of the founders give a detailed examination of the economics behind tariffs.

http://mises.org/daily/1388

http://library.mises.org/books/Henry%20George/Protection%20or%20Free%20Trade%20An%20Examination%20of%20the%20Tariff%20Question,%20with%20Especial%20Regard%20to%20the%20Interests%20of%20Labor.pdf

http://wallstreetallstars.com/murray-rothbard-tariffs-inflation-anti-trust-and-cartels-american-economy-lecture-6/

http://mises.org/document/997/Tariff-History-of-the-United-States

http://mises.org/document/3250

http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1158.html

And probably most important for you-

http://mises.org/media/4518/Whos-Protected-By-Tariffs

http://mises.org/document/6785/Economics-in-One-Lesson

They were installed to protect the fledgling mfg base and the proceeds were to pay for Federal govt,

You have enough info to find the letters.

Redmanfms

10-26-12, 07:36

Nevermind.

500grains

10-26-12, 08:42

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SSq_7Q7cGqI/AAAAAAAAH1U/0G4SsWzcIx4/s400/gm.bmp

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-on-total-hourly-labor-costs-gm-vs.html

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

Mjolnir

10-26-12, 10:33

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SSq_7Q7cGqI/AAAAAAAAH1U/0G4SsWzcIx4/s400/gm.bmp

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-on-total-hourly-labor-costs-gm-vs.html

http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

That's with benefits. Is that median or average? All US plants or limited? Is it for the guys who actually assemble the cars or for those who are near retirement who can make a shitload of money pushing a broom (seniority and crap)?

Ask yourself if YOU are willing to take a pay cut by that same percentage? I'm sure as Hell not. Noe would I want the benefits package offered by Toyota compared to GM UAW. Look into it.

The way some see this is that we should all work for radioactive oyster shells since that would make "us" REALLY competitive with the world. Yep, that's what the Globalists believe.

No thanks.

NWPilgrim

10-26-12, 10:45

That's with benefits. Is that median or average? All US plants or limited? Is it for the guys who actually assemble the cars or for those who are near retirement who can make a shitload of money pushing a broom (seniority and crap)?

Ask yourself if YOU are willing to take a pay cut by that same percentage? I'm sure as Hell not. Noe would I want the benefits package offered by Toyota compared to GM UAW. Look into it.

The way some see this is that we should all work for radioactive oyster shells since that would make "us" REALLY competitive with the world. Yep, that's what the Globalists believe.

No thanks.

The problem is that with govt support the unions pushed American wages/benefits very high and created a demand for foreign alternatives. The unions killed US car mfg with corruption and uncompetitive labor.

With less domestic govt support of unions, less regulation, and more tariffs we would have better balance in the labor market. Wages and benefits would fall because they are too high now. But not as far as "radioactive oysters" because the increased tariffs would force them to pay the same overhead domestic mfgs carry.

Govt and unions have made this a hugely complex situation that will not be easy or painless to unravel. We are pissing in the wind since no national politician is going to go against the union lobby.

500grains

10-26-12, 11:19

Toyota rav4s, tacomas and 4 runners are a much better value than Jeeps, due to the cost of United Auto Workers labour.

I am an auto engineer. Prove your UAW claim.

I proved it above.

I hope Mittens gets a national right to work law passed. Then we can kiss the unions good bye.

RancidSumo

10-26-12, 13:07

They were installed to protect the fledgling mfg base and the proceeds were to pay for Federal govt,

You have enough info to find the letters.

Well instead of typing that you could have just typed the link to the letter. I still don't think one exists and the burden of proof is on you.

Fortunately for you though, the links I posted have several sections that explicitly address the claims that tariffs are good for fledgling industries if you want to actually do some reading on the subject.

Mjolnir

10-26-12, 16:44

Well instead of typing that you could have just typed the link to the letter. I still don't think one exists and the burden of proof is on you.

Fortunately for you though, the links I posted have several sections that explicitly address the claims that tariffs are good for fledgling industries if you want to actually do some reading on the subject.

I could ask what economic school of thought the authors come from but I won't bother. I trust those who FOUNDED A NATION ABOVE ALL over the benighted fools who have managed to lose one.

THAT AND THE FACT THAT I LIKE THE IDEA OF A SMALL FEDERAL GOV'T AND NO FEDERAL TAXES FOR CITIZENS OF THIS GREAT NATION.

We will have to agree to disagree, brother.

RancidSumo

10-26-12, 18:30

The authors are all from the Austrian School which is basically the complete opposite of the Keynesian nonsense that got us in our current mess.

I agree though, it is probably time to just move on. I do not think that the founders were right on every single issue, certainly not on this one, and I believe that sound economic theory and the abundance of evidence in our economic history supports that. We won't ever see eye to eye on that.

Mjolnir

10-26-12, 19:08

Neither the Austrian or Keynesians I'm afraid. BOTH have sold this nation den the toilet. One MUST protect its borders, currency, manufacturing base and economy. Opening one's borders to low cost labor nations that produce decent to good products is a "race to the bottom". The Globalists don't support "free trade" and no tariffs for nothing!

I'd still cover you in a gunfight, my friend.

wild_wild_wes

10-27-12, 01:23

munch520

10-27-12, 07:19

I love my FJ too :cool:

A buddy has an Army green one. Pretty sweet with all the TRD upgrades

Vash1023

10-27-12, 14:12

im from Toledo, home of Jeep, and its just getting worse and worse here....

primary reason is several hundered employees have been laid off or taken a buyout and then go back to doing what there best at, selling drugs...

Alpha Sierra

10-27-12, 19:22

Alpha Sierra

10-27-12, 19:26

SMETNA

10-28-12, 00:29

In addition to this forum, I'm sure many of us also belong to a vehicle- specific forum as well. I belong to JeepKJCountry and L.O.S.T.

There are dozens upon dozens of guys on the web with American-made Jeep Liberty's that passed 180,000 long ago. Original engine and trans. Maybe replaced a radiator or a water pump here and there. The owner has to take care of it.

If you do your part as the owner, just about any vehicle will run past 200,000. My private mechanic says he sees Honda Odyssey vans come in with 110,000 ish miles on them, ruined transmission. I mentioned that I always thought Hondas go forever. They do, he said, but they need maintenance. The soccer moms that own them don't pay any attention to a single thing besides the oil changes. So as they age, they end up with trans, AC, Power steering, CV, etc. problems.

Anyway, the best way to figure out how inherently good or bad a vehicle is, is to listen to long-term owners of that vehicle on a forum. If there are only 4-5 members out of 10,000 that have made it to 200k, and they have a giant list of busted stuff they fixed over the years, probably not a great sign. On the other hand, if you visit a forum and they have a high percentage of long-term, high-mileage owners, that's more indicative of a good vehicle.

iPhone/Tapatalk

GeorgiaBoy

10-28-12, 00:59

DeltaSierra

10-28-12, 01:10

All I can say is that people here have either had a) REALLY bad luck, or b) don't take care of their vehicles.

Whenever I hear something like "My (insert domestic car here) started falling apart at 20K miles", I automatically assume that "falling apart" means that a radio knob loosened, a window rollup button failed, or a engine light came on. I find it very, very, very unlikely your car is literally falling apart at just TWENTY thousand miles.

Or whenever I hear "my xyz part was rusted apart by 30K miles". Really? The entire block of metal was "rusted away"? Or was their just some deeper surface rust? Unless you live in the middle of the ocean, I find it highly unlikely a part on your vehicle is nearly rusted away in just a few thousand miles.

Preventative maintenance is the key to making any piece of machinery last.

I've lived in very unusual environments, and have had to deal with very unusual conditions.

If you don't believe me, fine. I really don't care. My personal experience with well maintained american made vehicles has been awful.

The milage that you are describing that you have put on your vehicles is nothing. I'm also guessing that you don't actually use your trucks as trucks - you drive them like a car, right? I use trucks as trucks.......

SMETNA

10-28-12, 01:16

Preventative maintenance is the key to making any piece of machinery last.

Bingo.

I know that I live in an area that gets lots of snow; lake-effect and otherwise. So I chose to prevent undercarriage rust by getting ziebart. It has a 10yr warranty wherein they will reapply the entire undercoat every year.

I also know that we have a ton of bugs in the humid summer season. So I fastened/glued in some window screen mesh behind my grille to keep bugs and seeds and leaves out of my radiator. Twice a year I blast it out with a power washer.

I also rewrote my service schedule to be even better than factory. i.e. instead of flushing and refilling the trans fluid at 65k, I'm doing it at 50k. Instead of flushing/refilling engine coolant at 80k, I'm doing it at 65k.

Nobody makes a vehicle that will be flawless past 200k without keeping tabs on its health.

iPhone/Tapatalk

GeorgiaBoy

10-28-12, 01:34

I'm also guessing that you don't actually use your trucks as trucks - you drive them like a car, right? I use trucks as trucks.......

Glad you do.

Well, I don't know the exact criteria of what a "truck" is supposed to be used for, and what separates it from using it as a "car". I tow 2-4,000 pound loads on occasion, drive off-road if needed, and tow stuff in my bed also if needed. I don't use my truck as a farm truck or work truck if that is what you are saying, I have a Jeep YJ I go "truly" off road with.

I live smack dab in the middle of work and farm truck country. I don't know of a SINGLE farmer or rancher that uses a Toyota or Nissan as their personal work truck. ALL use Chevies and Fords, and I never hear any complaints. They apparently all hold-up well for them.

Alpha Sierra

10-28-12, 09:31

Back to the topic at hand of manufacturing costs........

General assembly labor (and that includes people screwing in the same bolt over and over or installing the same module over and over) in an assembly line or mass production environment is not worth much more than 12 to 15 bucks an hour.

It is simply unskilled, repetitive labor that anyone can do with a modicum of training and on the job experience. You just gotta follow work instructions.

The UAW has inflated the cost of that labor for so long that some people simply can't fathom the fact that such work is simply not worth the $25+/hr that the UAW has historically extorted from the big three.

If you want to make a solid, middle class living in manufacturing today, you need to bring more than a warm body and a pair of hands to the table. You need to be one of the brains behind the operation.

That can be in any number of white or blue collar capacities. Be a good solid project manager, be able to design good tooling, program and setup CNC machining centers and be able to fine tune the machining process (feeds, speeds, tool selection, tool path) to optimize the process and make it run so that the features you are machining are right every time without having to make constant adjustments. Be able to design, program, inegrate, troubleshoot, and modify factory automation (robots, PLCs, machine vision, etc). Be a journeyman tool and die maker. Now you will be worth anywhere from $50K to $100K a year depending on industry and location.

If all you bring is a pair of hands, be ready to accept $30K or less because that is all you're worth to manufacturers today.

RWK

10-28-12, 10:00

500grains

10-28-12, 10:30

Chrysler and GM are dead to me because they got in bed with Obama on the bailout. S&W was dead to me when they made that deal with Klinton.

WS6

10-28-12, 10:41

My '11 Z06 was about 70% American, I believe. That said, I now drive a 370Z and it's a much nicer car, if not as fast.

Mjolnir

10-28-12, 10:54

150,000 miles is hardly a test of vehicle durability.

Depends on THE DRIVE CYCLE.

Mjolnir

10-28-12, 10:58

My '11 Z06 was about 70% American, I believe. That said, I now drive a 370Z and it's a much nicer car, if not as fast.

These two cars are very much different. The homologation special Z06 is a much more focused, much more powerful vehicle than the 350Z (which is a Grand Touring car). I don't expect - and you won't get - the finer interior appointments and creature comforts in these "specials". That said I wish Chevrolet would choose better quality interior materials for the Vette. I don't require any more power and that is true for every Vette they make and sell.

ralph

10-28-12, 19:06

I won't buy another Chrysler product because of how they screwed over many of their dealers a few years ago. With no warning, they closed one of the oldest Chrysler dealers in the state. Many dealerships, formerly competitors, were scrambling to help each other to try to stay afloat. When Chrysler came back around to say "great news, we'll take you back!", that same dealership told them to go pound sand. They're now a Hyundai dealership.

I own a 2006 Jeep. The Jeep has had a short list of mechanical issues over ~84k miles. When the time comes, the Jeep will be replaced by a Toyota Tacoma.

I understand how you feel...Not far from where I live there was a Chevy dealer in a small town probably about 8-10,000 lots of Amish in the surounding area...Anyway, the Chevy dealer had been with GM since 1915...since they were small, and not a large "Auto Mall" GM closed them down..They now scrape by selling used cars..That had to be one of the shittest things I've ever seen a large corpration do..These people had been with GM since the very beginning, Through a depression, 2 world wars and everything else afterwards, and they got kicked to the curb because GM felt they did'nt sell enough..

munch520

10-28-12, 19:38

Glad you do.

Well, I don't know the exact criteria of what a "truck" is supposed to be used for, and what separates it from using it as a "car". I tow 2-4,000 pound loads on occasion, drive off-road if needed, and tow stuff in my bed also if needed. I don't use my truck as a farm truck or work truck if that is what you are saying, I have a Jeep YJ I go "truly" off road with.

I live smack dab in the middle of work and farm truck country. I don't know of a SINGLE farmer or rancher that uses a Toyota or Nissan as their personal work truck. ALL use Chevies and Fords, and I never hear any complaints. They apparently all hold-up well for them.

Again, we use ours as 'trucks'. Hundreds of thousands of miles between all of them...towing 8-15,000lbs weekly if not more. All Chevys, all diesels, a mix of 3/4 and 1 tons.

We just returned from quarter horse congress and your observation plays true there as well. Truck after truck of Ford, Dodge, Chevy. Seemed to be more Chevy.

Completely agree that preventative maintenance is key.

Mjolnir

10-28-12, 23:00

I won't buy another Chrysler product because of how they screwed over many of their dealers a few years ago. With no warning, they closed one of the oldest Chrysler dealers in the state. Many dealerships, formerly competitors, were scrambling to help each other to try to stay afloat. When Chrysler came back around to say "great news, we'll take you back!", that same dealership told them to go pound sand. They're now a Hyundai dealership.

I own a 2006 Jeep. The Jeep has had a short list of mechanical issues over ~84k miles. When the time comes, the Jeep will be replaced by a Toyota Tacoma.

If it means anything to you Chrysler is by far the worst offender of having poor quality of the Big Three. I used to benchmark vehicles and on EVERY SINGLE Benchmark exercise Chrysler was last. Well, the Ford Windstar may have been similarly challenged on a refinement consideration - but the Chrysler namebrand is one I could not purchase.

Mjolnir

10-28-12, 23:01

Chrysler and GM are dead to me because they got in bed with Obama on the bailout. S&W was dead to me when they made that deal with Klinton.

Yep. Let China pick them up on the cheap.

montanadave

10-29-12, 09:19

The OP is total bullshit and the thread lives on for six pages?

WTF?

This is precisely the kind of shit that got the OP banned before and fuels the frustration with GD and appeals to have it closed/removed from the site.

wake.joe

10-29-12, 09:26

The OP is total bullshit

Assuming you mean the article/etc..

Prove it?

montanadave

10-29-12, 10:06

Assuming you mean the article/etc..

Prove it?

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/automobiles/264509-romney-under-fire-for-ad-repeating-jeep-moving-to-china-claim

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/automobiles/264315-chrysler-refutes-romney-claim-jeep-production-moving-to-china

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/10/26/Chrysler-Jeep-jobs-to-stay-in-N-America/UPI-50451351276246/

and the list goes on.

While Jeep is exploring the option of developing production facilities in China to specifically supply the Chinese market, they have no intention of shuttering U.S. based production plants.

500grains was and is a serial propagandist, provocateur, and prevaricator who treats the GD forum like a personal blog to disseminate his own ultra-conservative political views and bigoted social agenda. He has probably done more than any other single member to foment a toxic atmosphere in GD and promote heightened animosity between forum participants.

Littlelebowski

10-29-12, 10:11

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/automobiles/264509-romney-under-fire-for-ad-repeating-jeep-moving-to-china-claim

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/automobiles/264315-chrysler-refutes-romney-claim-jeep-production-moving-to-china

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/10/26/Chrysler-Jeep-jobs-to-stay-in-N-America/UPI-50451351276246/

and the list goes on.

While Jeep is exploring the option of developing production facilities in China to specifically supply the Chinese market, they have no intention of shuttering U.S. based production plants.

500grains was and is serial propagandist, provocateur, and prevaricator who treats the GD forum like a personal blog to disseminate his own ultra-conservative political views and bigoted social agenda. He has probably done more than any other single member to foment a toxic atmosphere in GD and promote heightened animosity between forum participants.

Yup...

GeorgiaBoy

10-29-12, 10:13

500grains was and is serial propagandist, provocateur, and prevaricator who treats the GD forum like a personal blog to disseminate his own ultra-conservative political views and bigoted social agenda. He has probably done more than any other single member to foment a toxic atmosphere in GD and promote heightened animosity between forum participants.

Really? I always thought he was one of the more sane, rational, productive members...

;)

Littlelebowski

10-29-12, 10:17

Really? I always thought he was one of the more sane, rational, productive members...

;)

There's at least 2 that can usually find a way to blame their/America's woes on race. Whether or not they would do so to Mace Windu's or Mjolnir's face must remain a point of comedic speculation :D

500grains

10-29-12, 11:17

Maybe we'll move to Italy instead...

AUTO BAILOUT BOMBSHELL: Fiat Says Chrysler, Jeep Production May Move to Italy
Submitted by Mark Modica on Tue, 10/29/2012 - 10:53
Coming hot on the heels of speculation that some Jeep production may be moved to China comes a bombshell from a Bloomberg report. Fiat is now considering moving Chrysler and Jeep production to Italy.

According to the piece, "To counter the severe slump in European sales, (Fiat CEO Sergio) Marchionne is considering building Chrysler models in Italy, including Jeeps, for export to North America. The Italian government is evaluating tax rebates on export goods to help Fiat. Marchionne may announce details of his plan as soon as Oct. 30, the people said."

So, let's be real clear here, we are talking about vehicles that will be built in Italy and exported to America.

http://nlpc.org/cached/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy.html?q=stories/2012/10/29/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy

500grains

10-29-12, 11:19

[

500grains was and is a serial propagandist, provocateur,

Really? You are the nut who says that Mitt Romney wants to overthrow the US govt and establish a theocracy.

Mjolnir

10-29-12, 11:30

GeorgiaBoy

10-29-12, 12:33

I'd rather help the Italian economy over the Chinese economy any day.

Italians make great stuff... and know how to make it.

chadbag

10-29-12, 12:45

I'd rather help the Italian economy over the Chinese economy any day.

Italians make great stuff... and know how to make it.

Fix It Again Tony!

And their tanks and machine-guns were great too! :D

---

FromMyColdDeadHand

10-29-12, 14:22

Chadbag is now accepting apologies....

A wop-slop Jeep, Indian land rovers and jags- what is this world coming too?

montanadave

10-29-12, 15:54

Really? You are the nut who says that Mitt Romney wants to overthrow the US govt and establish a theocracy.

This is not the first time you have made this false assertion, so let's set the record straight regarding this particular red herring of which you are so enamored.

In response to a link to some whack job article posted by Chadbag, I responded by linking an equally defamatory article/blog from some loon promoting his particular anti-Mormon agenda. My post was an exercise in hyperbole intended to illustrate the ease with which a quick tour of the intergoggle can provide "evidence" to support virtually any position.

The fact that you continue to reference that exchange and misrepresent my statements merely provides additional evidence of your pernicious mendacity.

500grains

10-29-12, 16:13

That is a bit of spin. If I were not so lazy, I would go find the quote.

As for the rest of what you posted, it just goes in the ignore bin because I do not find it productive to argue with an Obamabot.

glocktogo

10-29-12, 16:19

Maybe we'll move to Italy instead...

http://nlpc.org/cached/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy.html?q=stories/2012/10/29/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy

Translation: What are you going to give me and how much will you grovel to keep Chrysler Jeep production where it is now? :rolleyes:

chadbag

10-29-12, 18:26

This is not the first time you have made this false assertion, so let's set the record straight regarding this particular red herring of which you are so enamored.

In response to a link to some whack job article posted by Chadbag, I responded by linking an equally defamatory article/blog from some loon promoting his particular anti-Mormon agenda. My post was an exercise in hyperbole intended to illustrate the ease with which a quick tour of the intergoggle can provide "evidence" to support virtually any position.

The fact that you continue to reference that exchange and misrepresent my statements merely provides additional evidence of your pernicious mendacity.

MD, you seem to have a problem with "moral equivalency."

Your posting about Romney wanting to create a Mormon theocratic state was NOT in response to a whack job article I posted. It was in response to an article I posted that described a REAL FACTUAL INCIDENT that occurred with Obama posting a picture of himself gazing at the moon, after Neil Armstrong died. And one man's interpretation/commentary on said act by Obama. That is NOT a whack job article. There is a HUGE difference between an article describing a REAL EVENT and some conspiracy BS. Just like there is a huge difference between Reagan cracking a joke in a bar, where it is extremely open to interpretation if there was any innuendo at all, and a blatant TV Ad so dripping with innuendo, it is disgusting.

(for those wanting to reference this theocratic state BS, to is about here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81192&page=6)
---

montanadave

10-29-12, 18:35

MD, you seem to have a problem with "moral equivalency."

It pales in comparison with the blatant hypocrisy evidenced by so many in this thread and others.

chadbag

10-29-12, 18:36

It pales in comparison with the blatant hypocrisy evidenced by so many in this thread and others.

Really? Somehow, I doubt it.

--

kmrtnsn

10-29-12, 19:52

Maybe we'll move to Italy instead...

http://nlpc.org/cached/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy.html?q=stories/2012/10/29/fiat-says-chrysler-jeep-production-may-move-italy

I see this is the exact same dubious source for you initial article.

Not a single mention of it on any mainstream news outlet, U.S. or ITALIAN.

Not covered by a single automotive industry publication, U.S. or European.

One would think that if true, this would be big news in a lot of places, hmmmmmmmm.

Now, Chrysler and Fiat have talked about basing new Chryslers and a new small Jeep SUV on a new shared Fiat-based platform. In fact the new small Dodge Dart is really a Fiat underneath, and it is built here. THIS has been all over the automotive press for over a year; old news.

Do a minimum of fact checking before you post this shit.

Voodoochild

10-29-12, 19:52

This thread is dying of multiple SIGW's. Going to put it out of it's misery.

ETA: People please stop posting full articles from other sites here read the rules..