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View Full Version : 11-87 Breaking In**UPDATE III: Now Working w/Win. AA**



blackscot
02-11-08, 06:56
Finally got the new Rem. 11-87 out to the range over the weekend.

To put in context, this is only my second ever shotgun -- and my very first semi-auto -- being preceded during the past 4 years solely by a Rem. 870 pump. I've been wanting something gas-operated to take the slam off my now 50-year-old shoulder, and also with interchangeable chokes (the 870 is a fixed IC) to let me tailor patterning to meet the demands of my local 3-gun matches.

Well the 11-87 felt good in handling, patterned better than the 870, and functioned flawlessly with everything on the heavy side: 9-ball double-ought buck, 1-5/8 oz. #6 turkey loads, and 1 oz. slugs. It would not, however, cycle with anything lighter. In my case this was #7.5 in 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 oz. field loads -- not really "light" by my thinking but more mid-weight. So, I felt some dismay.

Got home to call the person who sold me the gun from one of our local dealers. He said I need to shoot some more of the heavy loads (I had shot a couple dozen rounds so far) to get the action to "loosen up" before it would cycle anything lighter.

I've known this individual for some time and believe him to be knowledgable and honest. Still am wondering though, and this being my first semi-auto I don't have any prior experience to provide a perspective. I know the SA guns as a group have "issues" that the pumps are free of, but I'm still surprized this 11-87 won't yet handle oz.+ field loads.

Any thoughts? :rolleyes:

rob_s
02-11-08, 06:59
You've encountered what, in my experience, has always been the potential shortcoming of semi-auto shotguns; limited ammo selection.

Your "friend", may be right, and it will probably loosen up a bit with more of the full-house loads as moving parts seat into their various channels and springs and such get an initial workout, but I wouldn't expect to get too huge of a change.

SHIVAN
02-11-08, 09:12
My two 11-87's didn't need it, and run very well on stuff as low as 1oz #8 skeet loads.

That being said, I have seen some that refuse to run with that light a load.

You could possibly take a stab at disassembling it, lubing it up, and replacing the gas seal ring for about $5.

It worked on my friend's 1100...FWIW.

ST911
02-11-08, 09:18
Your "friend", may be right, and it will probably loosen up a bit with more of the full-house loads as moving parts seat into their various channels and springs and such get an initial workout, but I wouldn't expect to get too huge of a change.

That's been my experience. Some will be close enough to threshold that they can be worn-in a bit and work better. Gas scatterguns are hit and miss.

Blackscot- There are a number of folks that can tweak your gas system to work with the light stuff. I believe we discussed the mods and vendors in another thread here about a year ago.

blackscot
02-11-08, 10:25
Thanks guys -- I'd have not bought this gun if I thought it was going to be limited entirely to heavy loads. :(


......I believe we discussed the mods and vendors in another thread here about a year ago.

Search thingie gave me this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=3027&highlight=11-87

Shall peruse over lunch today.

ETA - just finished the earlier thread. Looks like it's a 50/50 luck-of-the-draw kind of thing. Sure hope I can get mine straightened out. :(

carshooter
02-11-08, 10:46
In my experience, running a couple hundred rounds of full power ammo through it will help with break in.

It hasn't proven necessary on my 11-87P, but several shooters have told me that they run two rubber O-rings in order to get their 11-87's to cycle with lighter loads.

blackscot
02-11-08, 11:01
.....several shooters have told me that they run two rubber O-rings in order to get their 11-87's to cycle with lighter loads.

I think I saw an off-hand reference to that on the earlier thread.

Another O-ring thought: this gun is new, but it sat in the store unsold for 5 years. Could the O-ring be just old from that? Stiff, stretched, whatever?

At any rate, I'm definately going to get some replacement O-rings ASAP and try that route next.

rob_s
02-11-08, 11:07
The O-ring could absolutely be degraded. I had a Benelli M3 that sat in the store where I worked for years, and I got it for below cost because of it. When I got it home and took it apart there were a couple (IIRC, this has been nearly 10 years ago) of o-rings in the action that needed replaced.

blackscot
02-11-08, 11:25
The O-ring could absolutely be degraded.....

Just called the local custom tactical shop up the road -- they've got some in stock. Headed up there right now.....

RogerinTPA
02-11-08, 13:46
The O-ring could absolutely be degraded. I had a Benelli M3 that sat in the store where I worked for years, and I got it for below cost because of it. When I got it home and took it apart there were a couple (IIRC, this has been nearly 10 years ago) of o-rings in the action that needed replaced.

I bought an 11-87 that sat idle about 10 years as well. I cleaned it up without breaking it down and took it to the range a few months ago, shooting some Federal low recoil slugs and some Wolf 00. The gun was accurate with both but damn did that Wolf ammo buck like hell! I thought "Man I'm out of shape", but after totally disassembling and cleaning the thing afterwards, I found the O ring was pretty degraded. I replaced it and shot it again and man what a difference!

SHIVAN
02-11-08, 14:53
The O-ring in my 11-87 "bedside" gun, crumbled when I disassembled it the 1st time. I have several on hand at any given time.

Worth a check, for sure.

carshooter
02-11-08, 16:06
O-rings in 11-87's and 1100's are definately a high wear items, but honestly, in my experience I've seen more lost, torn or damaged than I have just "worn out" or degraded from age. Some solvents seem to eat them.

I keep a bunch of spares on hand, too.

m700m
02-11-08, 16:15
i also have an 11-87p, i bought it new two years ago. and have never fired it. is there anything maintenance wise that i should do before i take it to the range? also since it is the ''p'' model, full power loads are what the gun is set up for, right/wrong? thanks. Don........:confused:

DrMark
02-11-08, 16:18
My 11-87 was worked well out of the box with loads as light as 1 oz.

However, it is a model with a 26" vent rib Rem-choke barrel.

It's my understanding (someone with more knowledge please chime in) that the short varrels (deer or defense barrels) have larger gas port optimized for heavy loads, and won't be as reliable with light field loads.

m700m
02-11-08, 16:33
:rolleyes: thanks DrMark, i always user 7/8 ''3 sluggers, ''ouch'', i bought 8 cases for a good price sometime back, so i hope luck is with me and i picked an 11-87p assembled on a good day. D..........

Cold Zero
02-11-08, 17:48
I bought an 11-87 for my first trip to Alaska many years ago. I bought it shortly before leaving and had few rounds thru it, with no problems.

When I go there and it was time to duck hunt, I would get light primer strikes on the 3" Magnum #2 steel shot shells. Everyone in camp took it apart and no one could get it to work.

I ended up having to use a Sears semi auto shotgun that would not cycle and we had to lube it with outboard motor (2 cycle?) oil. Did some nice duck hunting despite the gun issues. Lesson learned was never take a non broken in gun on an expensive trip.

Now over ten years later, I have never had another problem with that gun even with light #8 trap and skeet loads. I took it back to the store when I returned, they would not tell me what they did to it and only said it was fixed.I still don't know what the problem was to this day. I have heard of other guys who had the same light primer strike problem.

I keep extra O rings on hand these days. Good luck with your gun.

UVvis
02-11-08, 19:13
My 11-87 needs a healthy does of oil to run well with lighter loads. If it is dry it doesn't work well.

IrishDevil
02-11-08, 21:15
It's been my experience 200 rounds is to be considered a minimum break in on 11-87's. This is especially true with 11-87 Special Purpose(3.5") guns, when trying to use light loads. I duck hunt alot, and have seen almost every brand of semi-auto shotgun choke. In my experience, the 1100/1187 is a reliable shotgun once broken in. Overall, I think the 1100 is a better gun for lighter loads, IMO and experience. Also, pumps may be a more reliable action, but I've seen many a short stroke once people get excited.

blackscot
02-12-08, 06:45
Welp, I got a few replacementment O-rings, but still no-go with the #7.5 1-1/8 oz. loads. Also tried the doubled-up O-rings config, which did increase pressure enough to move the bolt partway back, but not enough to eject the spent shell and feed the next.

The guy I bought the gun from said "a couple more boxes" of heavy loads were needed. So along with the O-rings, I also picked up 60 rounds of turkey loads, which will get me through the next 3-gun match at the end of the month (if the shoulder holds up! :( ). I'll then see if the gun has loosened up any.

The idea behind getting a gas-op though, was to lessen the abuse the pump was giving me. That logic doesn't really hold if the SA will only eat buckshot, slugs, and turkey loads. I'm not really keen on the propsect of having to digest 200-500 rounds of heavy stuff before the gun might handle something lighter.


My 11-87 was worked well out of the box with loads as light as 1 oz.

However, it is a model with a 26" vent rib Rem-choke barrel.

It's my understanding (someone with more knowledge please chime in) that the short varrels (deer or defense barrels) have larger gas port optimized for heavy loads, and won't be as reliable with light field loads.

I failed to include earlier that this is a 21-inch rifle-sighted rem-choke (interchangeable) barrel. Someone mentioned to me awhile back that I might want a longer barrel for competition. Not having an experienced perspective, it didn't occur to me to ask if that had anything to do with gas impulse and cycling. Oh well -- this is how we learn. So another possible option would be a barrel switch-out.

Or -- I could just return to the 870 and have the muzzle threaded to accept interchangeable chokes and get the tighter patterning I need. I'd heard of someone local who could do that for ~$100. I know the pump will feed everything. One thing for-sure: it's not getting sold until when/if the SA situation gets resolved.

Thanks for all the interest and replies folks. I may update here later if there's anything to report.

Cold Zero
02-12-08, 06:53
My 11-87 is a 28" barrel length, sorry for leaving that out.

Blackscot, good luck gettting it all sorted out. When you do, it will run problem free , as mine now does.

Robb Jensen
02-12-08, 07:10
Blackscot,
I would contact Benny Hill at http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/ or John Paul at www.jprifles.com to see what each recommends. For shooting 3dram and under 'light' or low brass shotgun shells many times the gas ports need to be made larger on Remington autos.

blackscot
02-12-08, 08:09
Blackscot,
I would contact Benny Hill at http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/ or John Paul at www.jprifles.com to see what each recommends. For shooting 3dram and under 'light' or low brass shotgun shells many times the gas ports need to be made larger on Remington autos.

Hmm.....seems I could do that easily enough, if I knew the right hole size.

I'll see if they'll dispense some free advice -- thanks.

DrMark
02-12-08, 12:18
Interesting on-topic read:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=110433

blackscot
02-12-08, 13:13
Interesting on-topic read.....

That is spot-on -- thanks!

My barrel has only 2 gas ports. From the thread, it sounds sure enough like a heavy-load only barrel.

I asked specifically about the compensated/noncompensated thing before I bought the gun, and was told it was designed to handle a wide range of loads.

I'm really having some doubts on my decision now.....need to follow-up on gotm4's steer, along with the local smith who will put a choke in my 870.

blackscot
02-13-08, 05:46
Here's what the gas ports look like, diameter 0.082". There's just the two you see, and no spring with a second pair of ports underneath to bleed off the extra pressure of heavy loads.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/gas_ports.jpg

Some googling yesterday produced more chat-board threads than I could read about problems with 11-87's not cycling.

Threading the 870 is also now out: the guy says he would probably need to shorten the barrel to get adequate wall thickness, which in my case would end up loosing the front rifle sight.

I'll hang tight until after putting several dozen turkey loads through the gun at the match in 1-1/2 weeks, then see whether it will take field loads and decide further action accordingly.

blackscot
02-13-08, 08:01
Well, this appears to confirm my situation (mine is a 21-inch "special purpose") and may finally lay the matter to rest.

http://remington.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/remington.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=75&p_created=954365924&p_sid=f81GRcYi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTQwLDE0MCZwX3Byb2RzPTEsOSZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9Mi45JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT01&p_li=&p_topview=1

If true, then the gun is performing exactly as it was designed to and I likely cannot expect much change.

This gun is something other than I thought it was at the time I bought it. Likewise, the person I bought it from apparently didn't know as much about it as I thought he did.

I'm rather bummed.....:(

TOrrock
02-13-08, 11:41
Sorry to hear about that....if I were still working behind a counter I would have told you to buy the Winchester version of the Gold.

Anyway to sell the thing and start over?

blackscot
02-14-08, 06:41
Sorry to hear about that....if I were still working behind a counter I would have told you to buy the Winchester version of the Gold.

Anyway to sell the thing and start over?

I appreciate that, my good friend. Your knowledge and sound judgement are truly missed.

And good question. The one thing I have definitely received from all this is an edjamucation. I now feel I have a reasonably firm knowledge of the Remington shotgun design and variations, which have their limitations.

To wit: I could have got a gun with the pressure-compensated barrel (and can still swap-out for) that will handle both the light and heavy loads, but these aren't available in every conceivable configuration. Other than the compensation feature, they generally are set-up for light-load sports (skeet, small game, etc.), being longer and with vent ribs, and lacking the rifle sights I definitely need for accurate slug shots in 3-gun. I could get a smith to customize a barrel for me, but cost is already $200-$250 for just the barrel, and I don't want this to become a drawn-out money pit.

That being the case, what I ended up with may by-luck be about the closest to the mark needed for 3-gun, within the range of options Remington provides. This gun will definitely do the job on the steel, albeit somewhat overkill with the heavy loads that it is limited to -- and which are expensive ! ! ! The next match is now just a little over a week away, so I'll be taking it then at least, along with a small mint of ammo.

Beyond that I'm not sure. I still wince at the Winchester price tags. I understand that FN and Browning make essentially equivalent models? I'll definitely be checking into whatever options are out there.
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ETA:

Winchester SX2 Practical Mk II ~$1,100
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/WinSX2practicalMKII_1100.jpg

FN SLP Mk I ~$900
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/FN-SLP-MKI_900.jpg

Robb Jensen
02-14-08, 20:42
Randy I've never opened up the ports on a Remington myself. A good friend of mine (who's a member here and a Remington armorer) with a lot of experience with Remington shotguns had this list of gas port sizes for 1100s-11-87s. It's a chart on port sizes of the Remington gas guns. Since you said yours measures .0820" (this is the same as the 21" Special Purpose deer) it seems that the ports are small because it's made to work with full power slugs and buckshot. It appears that if you open them up to the next size up .1160" (same as the 26" Field, it would likely work), maybe even a tad bigger than .1160" since your barrel is shorter than the 26" Field. If you do open the ports up shooting heavy full power buckshot and slub loads will be harder on the gun.

I'd still check with Benny Hill or John Paul before modifying.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/virginiaarmspics/Remingtongasports.jpg

blackscot
02-15-08, 05:51
Thanks Robb. That's an option, but clearly with some risks. I would definitely want to talk to someone experienced before drilling anything. Could end up turning it into a rifle-sighted skeet-only gun. :eek:

I'll go ahead and try it as-is at the next match, and then see where my thoughts lay.

Might also start looking around for who carries that Winchester. Does VA Arms?

Robb Jensen
02-15-08, 06:12
Thanks Robb. That's an option, but clearly with some risks. I would definitely want to talk to someone experienced before drilling anything. Could end up turning it into a rifle-sighted skeet-only gun. :eek:

I'll go ahead and try it as-is at the next match, and then see where my thoughts lay.

Might also start looking around for who carries that Winchester. Does VA Arms?

We can't get anything Winchester right now, we do transfers if you find a Gold or SX2 online from like Gun Broker or something, I did a search and found a new SX2 Practical for $850 on GB (it expires in about 4hrs from now).

blackscot
02-15-08, 06:56
.......a new SX2 Practical for $850 on GB (it expires in about 4hrs from now).

I see four there, all from well rated sellers and at a lot lower prices than MSRP -- like WAY lower -- which I wonder why......

Never done GB before, although I've heard good things, but also not sure I'm ready to move quick enough for any of these. Hopefully this is a popular enough model to be generally available.

Robb Jensen
02-15-08, 07:18
Here's some interesting threads on the Brian Enos forum for 1100 & 11-87 tuning:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55841
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53216

Frank Castle
02-15-08, 08:51
I still wince at the Winchester price tags. I understand that FN and Browning make essentially equivalent models?

That is correct info. FNH/Browning/Winchester Arms are all part of the same parent company now. The FNH SLP's and Winchester Practical SX2's are "tactical/practical" versions of the Browning Gold series shotgun. They come with interchangeable gas pistons- one for light loads and one for heavy/magnum loads.

Frank Castle
02-15-08, 08:58
I see four there, all from well rated sellers and at a lot lower prices than MSRP -- like WAY lower -- which I wonder why......

Never done GB before, although I've heard good things, but also not sure I'm ready to move quick enough for any of these. Hopefully this is a popular enough model to be generally available.GB is good to go. Use some common sense. Just like Ebay- read users ratings and buy from dealers whenever possible. We may be able to help one another- I have a brand new FNH SLP Mark I (Never fired) I need to unload. I'll take the hit to the pocketbook to get rid of it. Send me a PM if interested.

BradleyW
02-15-08, 17:25
I was in Degoff's the other day and they had a couple SX2's w/ 24" barrels at pretty good prices. They are sitting on the shelf at the door in boxes. Gander Mountain in Fredericksburg had 3 with the red stocks and 28" barrels at around $400.00.

blackscot
02-16-08, 13:46
Well I discovered yesterday that the 11-87 will eat Rem. Express with complete reliability, which is less costly both to the wallet and the shoulder than those Federal turkey loads. I already have 50 rounds of the latter on-hand for the match though, so will probably go ahead and use them up. At least I can then use something a little more manageable at later matches.

Also got the sights zero'd in with 1 oz. slugs to 100 yards, so should be GTG for a week from today.


......The FNH SLP's and Winchester Practical SX2's are "tactical/practical" versions of the Browning Gold series shotgun. They come with interchangeable gas pistons- one for light loads and one for heavy/magnum loads.

So not entirely a does-it-all gun in the same sense as a pump?


I was in Degoff's the other day.......

I appreciate the steer, but am not sure how keen I am there at this point.......

BradleyW
02-16-08, 17:17
Not a "steer", just a heads up. I met a fellow in the parking lot for a purchase. I was looking around and noticed them.

blackscot
02-19-08, 06:42
Done a few FTF's there myself. ;)

Well after 50 rounds, the 11-87's gas ports didn't look dirty at all.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/ports_50-rounds.jpg
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The same couldn't be said for the piston and mag tube. Just took a quick wipe to remove though.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/piston_50-rounds.jpg
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Some interesting stuff on the Winchester et. al. piston. From their web site:


The Active Valve system consists of a gas piston with an internal valve that self adjusts to fire a wide range of loads. The gas piston and valve operate independently, exerting less pressure on the piston for greater longevity and efficiency than other gas-operated autoloaders. With light loads, most of the gases from the fired shell are used to operate the action. With heavy loads, excess gases are vented from the piston. When firing the heaviest magnum loads in 3 1/2" models a portion of the gases are also vented forward out of the Quadra-Vent™ ports in the forearm for maximum efficiency. 3" models fire everything from light, 1 oz., 2 3/4" target loads to 3" magnums, while 3 1/2" guns handle loads from 1 1/8 oz., 2 3/4" field loads up to heavy 3 1/2" magnums.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/active_valve.jpg

The Browning and FN web sites have almost identical descriptions, but only FN says anything about two separate pistons:


Two interchangeable gas pistons are included, allowing the operator to fine-tune the FN SLP for a wider range of functional reliability

I'd optimally like a gas-op semi-auto that -- like a pump -- will eat anything without having to stop to switch-out components.

blackscot
02-25-08, 07:29
Well, the 11-87 spun like a top at Saturday's 3-gun match -- I was running entirely hi-brass (Rem. Express).

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/BC3G_2-23-08.jpg
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I have a barrel clamp and sling, but left them off during the match to keep from marring the barrel until deciding whether to keep the gun.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/synth_stocks.jpg

Interestingly, two of the three SX2's that I saw in use there were having major problems, although all three of these shooters were trying to run lo-brass. I was told of finickiness among different ammo brands, FTE's with aluminum bases versus brass, etc. I also confirmed that the Winchester like the FN is a two-piston arrangement, to be switched out depending upon load.

To the original question behind this thread: I don't know if this 11-87 will ever "break in" enough to be reliable with lo-brass, but it seems to be fitting the bill needed for these matches, so I think now I will try to stay with it at least through this season.

Thanks for everyone's interest and input. :)

Robb Jensen
02-25-08, 07:35
I think a good option for the 1100 and 11-87 for the guy wanting one shotgun for both defensive and competition use would be to have 2 different same length barrels.
One gas ported big for competition for use with low brass and one standard gas ported for full power defensive loads.

blackscot
02-25-08, 08:02
I think a good option for the 1100 and 11-87 for the guy wanting one shotgun for both defensive and competition use would be to have 2 different same length barrels.
One gas ported big for competition for use with low brass and one standard gas ported for full power defensive loads.

Generally agree, except that BC3G has us also shooting slugs and certain....."uncooperative" steel requiring greater umph.

Robb Jensen
02-25-08, 08:06
Generally agree, except that BC3G has us also shooting slugs and certain....."uncooperative" steel requiring greater umph.

You can shoot slugs through a big ported Remmy gas gun, it's just harder on it for wear. The other way around is where the cycling problems occur.

blackscot
02-25-08, 08:09
You can shoot slugs through a big ported Remmy gas gun, it's just harder on it for wear. The other way around is where the cycling problems occur.

True.....maybe I'll look into an alternate barrel, or possibly enlarging the ports on mine (gulp) ??? :(

blackscot
04-29-08, 06:11
I discovered last week that the 11-87 will cycle reliably using Winchester AA Super Sport, with 1-1/8 oz. of no. 7-1/2 (rated at 1300 fps). I then used this ammo at a local 3-gun match Saturday without a hiccup.

At last, a low brass (relatively) load that works in this gun! Still not the cheapest around, but a lot less than what I had been using, and easier on the shoulder too.

Not sure if this is from the gun now having been "run in", or if it would have worked all along. Either way an improvement, and I'm glad I didn't end up having to make any modifications.

This ammo has enough kick to cycle, but not any more than that. Apparently, persistence with sampling the myriad of shotgun loads available out there can pay off.

Robb Jensen
04-29-08, 06:29
That's what I shoot in my Benelli M1 almost exclusively. I like the 7 1/2s better than the 8s too.

I got my HK/Benelli M1 running reliably again. After cutting the factory tube and adding an eight shot SRM tube and replacing the carrier it's now GTG. I shot 60 rounds through it on Wed at Blaster22s house.

blackscot
04-29-08, 08:05
.....I got my HK/Benelli M1 running reliably again......it's now GTG......

Good deal. :cool: