View Full Version : HD Pistol Setup Question - sights vs laser
Hey guys, I keep my MK18 close to hand with a couple mags of Speer Gold Dot, but I would consider my M&P9FS to be my primary HD pistol for ease of maneuvering, opening doors, etc. It wears an AAC Evo9 mostly because I have it and don't really have anything better to do with it (it was a gift). I also like the prospect of lessened recoil, muzzle blast, flash, and noise for an HD application. I live in a subdivision, but the surrounding property is rural, including the property beyond my backyard. It may be just as realistic (maybe even more realistic) to shoot a coyote to defend my dog as it would be to shoot a home invader (probably not very likely, but we prepare anyway). The lack of noise would be good as far as not freaking out the neighbors if I needed to shoot a coyote, or even a rude opossum or raccoon.
So on to my question. I've been running the pistol without any light attached and with the factory sights. I have been using my Surefire M3 handheld light and it's long enough that, with the Rogers method, I don't get hardly any shadow from the suppressor and can see the sights ok.
Well, last night I got a Surefire X300 and thought I was moving up in the world until I tried it on the gun. There is a much more pronounced suppressor shadow (not as bad beyond 2 or 3 yards) and I cannot see my front sight at all. The bezel on the X300 is much smaller and does not cast any light around the suppressor near the muzzle of the gun the way the M3 did.
So, now I'm left with a dilemma:
Laser grips or a Tritium front sight. I can pro-deal the laser grips, so they're not too expensive (but still a bit over $100) or I can get a Trijicon HD tritium front sight from Grant for $64. My concern is if I would still even be able to see the front sight. I know the tritium would glow, but without the rear having tritium, there's nothing to align it. Looking into my dark living room, I couldn't even make out the silhouette of the front sight even with the X300 on.
The Laser seems like the better choice because it's not dependent upon my aligning the sights and if my wife (who does not regularly shoot) needed to use the gun, she would have an idea about where she was aiming before pulling the trigger.
The other option would be to see if I could sell the 9mm can or trade it for a 22 can (much more useful), and then run the M&P with the light and see the sights. Or maybe trade the M&P for a 642 so my non-training wife doesn't have to worry about malfunctions.
Thoughts?
I'm sick of that nagging feeling in my mind while I'm out of town not sure that there is a squared-away HD weapon that I know my wife could use.
Seems to me your MK18 is the one that could use the suppressor. Save that for shooting the outdoor pests. As for HD, I'd go with the light and maybe still the laser, but I'd probably loose the suppressor. For me, the ease of being able to just grab the gun with a great light and laser combo would be the way to go. I wouldn't want my girlfriend to have to deal with a handheld light at the same time, i don't even want to for that matter. I think with the likelyhood of actually ever having to use it out weighs the sound reduction benefits of the suppressor set up, if that makes sense.
Oh yeah, as for the revolver, I'd forget that idea. I'm not sure why so many guys want one for their inexperienced significant other. How are your marksmenship skills with a DAO revolver? Though it seems like a simple point and shoot gun, it's just really not that, well, simple. Plus, isn't the M&P just a point and shoot?
Another thought...wouldn't the light probably wash out the laser?
What about one of those small electronic sights? Costs more for the sight and machine work, but more usable than a laser
Another thought...wouldn't the light probably wash out the laser?
No, with my M6 you see the red dot in the center of the circle of light.
Now with the Crimson Trace grips for the M&P the laser might only illuminate the back of your X300. Not sure how they line up but I think the light might get in the way of the laser beam.
My opinion, Batteries fail, night sights last 12 years or longer so get 3 dot night sights and a light/laser combo like the TLR2.
My HD set up is a Glock 23 with 3 dot night sights, Insight M6, and a G22 mag with +2 extension loaded with 165gr Speer GDs.
Have you tried clearing your house with your gun in one hand and your light in the other? It makes it harder to open doors to investigate nosies.
I don't see any options for you to make the shadow of the suppressor go away other than ditching the suppressor...
Pistol Shooter
10-25-12, 15:59
Lasers are great as an aiming device if you practice and don't jerk the trigger, otherwise it's just a superfluous accessory IMO.
Here is what my sight picture currently looks like. The camera picked up more of the sights than I can see with my eye. The light reflects more to the naked eye and washes the sights out.
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20121025_230315.jpg
I did go ahead and order the Laser Grips today. We'll see how that works. I found some pics where Grant had an almost identical setup from an older thread. I was kinda hoping he'd chime in here.
Lasers on pistol is like a red dot on a long gun. Kind of a must have IMHO. Personally, I would have a tritium front sight as well (as laser can break).
One quick thought on white light and room clearing (especially single man clears). You are at a HUGE disadvantage here and unless there is some need (like a child) at the other end of the house, do NOT venture out of your safe room or hallway (odds are against you ). Also, if possible, simply turn on the hallway light (or leave a living room/kitchen light on at all times). There will be enough light there that you won't really need a white light. This gives you some advantages (as you don't need to broadcast your position with handheld or weapon mounted light).
M&P, X300, DG-12, CT Laser Grips, AAC Can
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF/DG-12.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF/DG-12a.jpg
Lasers are great as an aiming device if you practice and don't jerk the trigger, otherwise it's just a superfluous accessory IMO.
How much time have you logged in shoot houses with a laser mounted on your handgun (in low light/no light)??
C4
IMO, a suppressor on a pistol for HD work is only chipping away at the advantages that the pistol has over a rifle/ SBR.
It's just that much more length you need to be worried about having break a plane before you own that space.
Also IMO, I prefer to search with handhelds over WML's. Shooting is easier, searching is not (again, IMO).
Even in near pitch black conditions, I could see movement and hit it without night sights (airsoft gun in an AMIS class). I had a guy move on me once I flashbulbed the room, and I tracked him and lit him up with nearly every shot fired, while we were both in the dark. If he had been stationary, I might not have seen him as easily. Once he moved my eye picked him up.
Most of the add-on's are nice, but IMO aren't always a "must have".
IMO, a suppressor on a pistol for HD work is only chipping away at the advantages that the pistol has over a rifle/ SBR.
It's just that much more length you need to be worried about having break a plane before you own that space.
Also IMO, I prefer to search with handhelds over WML's. Shooting is easier, searching is not (again, IMO).
Even in near pitch black conditions, I could see movement and hit it without night sights (airsoft gun in an AMIS class). I had a guy move on me once I flashbulbed the room, and I tracked him and lit him up with nearly every shot fired, while we were both in the dark. If he had been stationary, I might not have seen him as easily. Once he moved my eye picked him up.
Most of the add-on's are nice, but IMO aren't always a "must have".
This brings up an interesting debate and or two schools of thought from different applications.
As a Civy, we are sometimes (if not always) burdened with having to positively identify the target and see a weapon. So, shooting at blur running by you in the pitch dark might not be the best option.
Searching with a hand held light is easier, but as you said, shooting is not. I have been trained to basically keep any and all lights off until I locate a possible threat, flash bulb them, move and either flash them again (if I could not ID a weapon) or engage if I made out a weapon. If you need to hang onto something (child, wife, handle, rail or open a door), a weapon mounted light is king.
One of the things that I struggle with is shooting someone in my home (and they are unarmed). I would hate to have to tell my neighbor that I shot their 16yr old son because he was after some loose cash to support his pot problem.
C4
This brings up an interesting debate and or two schools of thought from different applications.
As a Civy, we are sometimes (if not always) burdened with having to positively identify the target and see a weapon. So, shooting at blur running by you in the pitch dark might not be the best option.
Searching with a hand held light is easier, but as you said, shooting is not. I have been trained to basically keep any and all lights off until I locate a possible threat, flash bulb them, move and either flash them again (if I could not ID a weapon) or engage if I made out a weapon. If you need to hang onto something (child, wife, handle, rail or open a door), a weapon mounted light is king.
One of the things that I struggle with is shooting someone in home (and they are unarmed). I would hate to have to tell my neighbor that I shot their 16yr old son because he was after some loose cash to support his pot problem.
C4
No disagreement on needing to ID targets, just that once that target has been assessed, the need to keep the beam on and perfectly in line with your sights isn't the end of the world, to me.
Sure, the mounted light can be an asset in situations where hands are needed elsewhere, but IMO, I don't want to search with a wml when I can avoid it. Thus, having both is always best, but if I could only have one, I'd take the handheld.
No disagreement on needing to ID targets, just that once that target has been assessed, the need to keep the beam on and perfectly in line with your sights isn't the end of the world, to me.
Agree.
Sure, the mounted light can be an asset in situations where hands are needed elsewhere, but IMO, I don't want to search with a wml when I can avoid it. Thus, having both is always best, but if I could only have one, I'd take the handheld.
Yep, two is king.
C4
No disagreement on needing to ID targets, just that once that target has been assessed, the need to keep the beam on and perfectly in line with your sights isn't the end of the world, to me.
Sure, the mounted light can be an asset in situations where hands are needed elsewhere, but IMO, I don't want to search with a wml when I can avoid it. Thus, having both is always best, but if I could only have one, I'd take the handheld.
I can understand and respect this position. I admittedly don't have any formal training on house clearing, but from trying things on my own, my thoughts are as follows:
The reason I run a pistol instead of my SBR is for maneuverability and one-handed firing. Opening doors or using a cell phone requires another hand. That prevents the use of a handheld light. I should add that I'm also going to purchase the DG switch for my light today so that (1) I can truly use the pistol, light, and laser all with one hand, and (2), it's more instinctive to turn on for my less-trained wife.
Now, I understand that we may not always want to be pointing a weapon at something just to identify it, but to me, that's where trigger discipline comes into play. It's a tradeoff, but to me the pro's outweigh the con's.
I can understand and respect this position. I admittedly don't have any formal training on house clearing, but from trying things on my own, my thoughts are as follows:
The reason I run a pistol instead of my SBR is for maneuverability and one-handed firing. Opening doors or using a cell phone requires another hand. That prevents the use of a handheld light. I should add that I'm also going to purchase the DG switch for my light today so that (1) I can truly use the pistol, light, and laser all with one hand, and (2), it's more instinctive to turn on for my less-trained wife.
Now, I understand that we may not always want to be pointing a weapon at something just to identify it, but to me, that's where trigger discipline comes into play. It's a tradeoff, but to me the pro's outweigh the con's.
Just to clarify, my rational for keeping the light and gun separate isn't to avoid pointing my gun at things, it's to allow me to use the light in a more unpredictable way, and to help facilitate some misdirection.
With a WML, you can pretty much use it to illuminate from a shooting stance. With a hand held, it's much easier to hold it out and weird angles, to wave it in an arc, etc. while keeping a gun protected (closer to the body) or oriented in the anticipated direction of trouble.
I'm not trying to steer you away from DG switches or anything, but in how I've been trained (and believe in) using lights like this, the WML solution is too restrictive when searching, to me.
Pistol Shooter
10-26-12, 16:11
How much time have you logged in shoot houses with a laser mounted on your handgun (in low light/no light)??
C4
**Not even close**
**Removed ignorant insulting comment from post**
Actually, it's a relevant question that points to your first hand experience, and the context of that experience.
If you find someone wondering what experiences have lead you to the opinion that you hold, and your ego is so fragile that when questioned you don't have the ability to say "you know what, I've only used that on a square range, I don't have any experience with them on moving targets, in low light, or in a 360 environment... what have you found?"... then maybe you should read more and post less.
Actually, it's a relevant question that points to your first hand experience, and the context of that experience.
If you find someone wondering what experiences have lead you to the opinion that you hold, and your ego is so fragile that when questioned you don't have the ability to say "you know what, I've only used that on a square range, I don't have any experience with them on moving targets, in low light, or in a 360 environment... what have you found?"... then maybe you should read more and post less.
Bingo.
C4
SWATcop556
10-26-12, 16:53
Pistol Shooter you can argue all you want to. You can have heated debates, arguements, hell even some sarcastic comments are fine, but you my friend stepped over the line.
This is not the place or the site for that kind of crap. Drop it.
I have a set of grin icon HDs on all oft Glocks and they are hard to beat.
SeriousStudent
10-26-12, 20:31
ASH556, thanks very much for posing this question. I have been having the same sort of thoughts.
Grant, do you have some input on the use of both the Surefire and the Crimson Trace? Specifically, when you "flash" the light, do you also use the laser?
I have an X300 with a DG-11 and a CT-617, all mounted on a G-17.
Are there any negatives in your mind to the laser and light both being used at the same time? I'm an old fellow now, and the arthritis in my hands makes it a bit more difficult to operate them independently.
I've obtained a G-17 plastic dummy gun, and modded it so I can mount the light and laser for practice. But it's still tough to work them seperately. I am saving up for an extended barrel and can.
I hope this adds rather than distracts from the discussion. Thanks very much for any input.
ETA: SWATcop556 - I'd also value your thoughts on this, of course.
ASH556, thanks very much for posing this question. I have been having the same sort of thoughts.
Grant, do you have some input on the use of both the Surefire and the Crimson Trace? Specifically, when you "flash" the light, do you also use the laser?
I have an X300 with a DG-11 and a CT-617, all mounted on a G-17.
Are there any negatives in your mind to the laser and light both being used at the same time? I'm an old fellow now, and the arthritis in my hands makes it a bit more difficult to operate them independently.
I've obtained a G-17 plastic dummy gun, and modded it so I can mount the light and laser for practice. But it's still tough to work them seperately. I am saving up for an extended barrel and can.
I hope this adds rather than distracts from the discussion. Thanks very much for any input.
ETA: SWATcop556 - I'd also value your thoughts on this, of course.
Hey man, great minds think alike ;)
I definitely think it adds to the discussion, and thanks for posting. I was wondering the same thing, but figured I'd give it a try when the parts got in and see how it worked for me. Still good to get perspective from those who have run it before, though!
ASH556, thanks very much for posing this question. I have been having the same sort of thoughts.
Grant, do you have some input on the use of both the Surefire and the Crimson Trace? Specifically, when you "flash" the light, do you also use the laser?
I have an X300 with a DG-11 and a CT-617, all mounted on a G-17.
Are there any negatives in your mind to the laser and light both being used at the same time? I'm an old fellow now, and the arthritis in my hands makes it a bit more difficult to operate them independently.
I've obtained a G-17 plastic dummy gun, and modded it so I can mount the light and laser for practice. But it's still tough to work them seperately. I am saving up for an extended barrel and can.
I hope this adds rather than distracts from the discussion. Thanks very much for any input.
ETA: SWATcop556 - I'd also value your thoughts on this, of course.
Typically, because of how the CT grips are setup on the M&P, you are getting the laser and light at the same time. So to answer your question, yes.
I really cannot think of any negatives concerning using them together.
C4
Typically, because of how the CT grips are setup on the M&P, you are getting the laser and light at the same time. So to answer your question, yes.
I really cannot think of any negatives concerning using them together.
C4
Of course I'm going to practice with it when all my parts get here, but in the meantime, any tips on how to maintain a good grip on the pistol without activating the light/laser?
Of course I'm going to practice with it when all my parts get here, but in the meantime, any tips on how to maintain a good grip on the pistol without activating the light/laser?
I squeeze as I normally do in a shooting situation and simply run my trigger finger over the laser (blocks it). Doing this also forces you to have proper trigger finger discipline!
C4
SeriousStudent
10-29-12, 20:53
Thank you, Grant, I appreciate the response.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.