View Full Version : How much light is to much...?
Need a light for my work rifle, which is a DD Mk18. Primary use is urban patrol, CBQ, and some work in rural areas. Current light is a TLR1 (~120 lumens).
Originally wanted a SF LX2 but i've read its not recommended for weapon mounts and dont want to trash a $200 light. This is the only 2-stage switch which is, IMO, tactically acceptable.
G2X Tactical is now 320 lumens. P2X fury is 500 lumens. Is this to much for CQB? Will you blind yourself with that much light in doors?
if you are running a red dot it can wash out your reticle. Hit a white wall and you'll blind yourself.
For rural patrol I'd opt for a bigger turbo head style to project the light a little better. YMMV.
Check out Pat Rogers' article in the current SWAT magazine. jm
I'm not a door kicker or anything, but I have a nice flashlight collection... The new surefire x300 ultra is super bright, but they did a great job with the bleed. The center spot is bright enough and the bleed allows for excellent peripheral vision.
I would compare the center to some 320 lumen lights. The rest looks like it was poured into the outside. They didn't just concentrate the entire light into one spot, which seems, to me, like a slight change from their past models.
I did not feel as blinded when lighting up a white wall as I have with other high lumen lights.
if you are running a red dot it can wash out your reticle. Hit a white wall and you'll blind yourself.
Good point. Running a T1 2moa. So i guess my question is... is a X300 Ultra of P2X fury (500l) to much indoors? If so, is a G2X Tactical (325l) to much?
Spurholder
10-29-12, 11:24
I have a G2X Tactical and a Fury. And an X300.
The Fury's too much, in my opinion, for inside work. I was getting minor "flashbulb" effects from using one in my house, even in large (over 20' x 20' rooms). Outside, however, it's amazing.
The G2X doesn't cause the issues inside like the Fury does. 300 lumens is awesome; however, it doesn't compare to the brightness of the Fury outside.
Personal opinion: I think the 200 lumen (+) X300 is the perfect weaponlight for a handgun. While I'll try out an Ultra if I can get my hands on one, I believe it'll probably be overkill.
lethal dose
10-29-12, 12:16
X300 is nice. Depending on setup, I usually run a g2led in a GS mount... works great in already lit urban and cqb scenarios. The only time more lumens are needed is when I'm out at the farm or somewhere else unlit (urban power outage) engaging at distances greater then 75y or so. Check out Elzetta's offerings. Though I mostly run surefire, Elzetta is the better light, IMHO.
jonconsiglio
10-29-12, 12:51
In addition to Pat's article, we have a discussion going about this very topic in the X300 ultra and Hello 21 threads on Lightfighter. By all accounts, 500 lumens is perfect whether it's in a rural environment or shoot house with white walls.
The peripheral lighting is greatly enhanced, which in a 360 degree environment is very important.
I used to think 250 was the perfect amount with any more being too much. I've since changed my view and will be replacing all my carbine lights with the new Scout with 500 lumens.
There's also quite a bit of detail on this subject in a couple recent threads in this subforum. Look for my posts as well as a few others with personal experience as well.
Keep in mind, as Pat has said, Surefire used to advertise "60 lumens of blinding white light". Times have changed 500 lumens is not the overkill most of us used to expect. I was whole heartedly against that much light thinking it would cause wash out and too much back splash. I was wrong, though of course training and proper red dot adjustment will play a role in this.
Edit - in numerous shoot house classes since Pat Rogers and some other guys have been running 500 lumen X300 ultras and Fury's exclusively on instructor and student loaner guns, not one complaint has been made about vision being affected.
lethal dose
10-29-12, 13:14
Consiglio is right, but reticle washout can become an issue. I've experienced it.
jonconsiglio
10-29-12, 13:23
Consiglio is right, but reticle washout can become an issue. I've experienced it.
I have as well. The simple solution there is to know your settings. For me, 9 (where i leave it set at night) on a T1 is about right unless I'm pressed against a white background, at which point I won't need the dot anyway. 10 will cover pretty much all scenarios with 500 lumens and bright backgrounds.
A training issue of course. Using a T1, it's easy to use the tube as a ghost ring at 7 yards and closer. But, I'd still prefer to never lose my dot.
I asked that very question of Pat on Lightfighter. He stated only once was it an issue. A student, who I believe was law enforcement, set his optic to bright. When he entered the shoot house and shouldered his rifle, he just froze. Apparently the whole tube was red as the dot was too bright and he just gut stuck instead of working through it.
In my limited experience with 500 lumen weapon lights, the trade off is worth it. The spot isn't all that much brighter than 250 (not blinding), but the entire room is illuminated and your peripheral vision is much better.
Another advantage to the 500 lumen lights is building searches during bright sunlight. Looking into a dark structure with 120 lumens while it's high noon can be quite difficult. Flood the room with more light and your chances of missing something are considerably less.
Of course this is a personal thing. I've been getting by fine with a standard and mini scout. Both of which are getting a bump, 200 and 250 respectively, with the 500 lumen ultra head available for the m600 scout.
Spurholder
10-29-12, 15:45
I have as well. The simple solution there is to know your settings. For me, 9 (where i leave it set at night) on a T1 is about right unless I'm pressed against a white background, at which point I won't need the dot anyway. 10 will cover pretty much all scenarios with 500 lumens and bright backgrounds.
A training issue of course. Using a T1, it's easy to use the tube as a ghost ring at 7 yards and closer. But, I'd still prefer to never lose my dot.
I asked that very question of Pat on Lightfighter. He stated only once was it an issue. A student, who I believe was law enforcement, set his optic to bright. When he entered the shoot house and shouldered his rifle, he just froze. Apparently the whole tube was red as the dot was too bright and he just gut stuck instead of working through it.
In my limited experience with 500 lumen weapon lights, the trade off is worth it. The spot isn't all that much brighter than 250 (not blinding), but the entire room is illuminated and your peripheral vision is much better.
Another advantage to the 500 lumen lights is building searches during bright sunlight. Looking into a dark structure with 120 lumens while it's high noon can be quite difficult. Flood the room with more light and your chances of missing something are considerably less.
Of course this is a personal thing. I've been getting by fine with a standard and mini scout. Both of which are getting a bump, 200 and 250 respectively, with the 500 lumen ultra head available for the m600 scout.
Thanks for posting this, and for your previous post.
I should've posted a caveat - middle-aged eyes and astigmatism don't lend themselves to an unbiased review about tactical lights. :o
Again, thanks.
I'm no expert on lights but how much light is enough depends also on how the beam is focused. You can have a 500 lumen light with a wide beam and it won't seem as bright as a 250 lumen tight focused beam. For cqb, a light with lots of wide spill is ****ing awesome. If you want serious reach for outdoors you would want a tight beam. Sometimes lumens can be deceiving.
Alaskapopo
10-30-12, 04:42
Having used the Fury now for several months on patrol I feel its just fine for indoor work and its not too bright.
Pat
Here is another thread talking about brightness. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=111328&page=4 It's all about the spill used to create the light. Surefire has finally caught up to the high lumen LED lamps and are doing it correctly.
Indeed see Pat's recent SWAT magazine article on this subject matter. It's probably the best in print article on the whole high lumen light debate. Lot's or rumors and not so correct information over the years.
Vic
Here is another thread talking about brightness. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=111328&page=4 It's all about the spill used to create the light. Surefire has finally caught up to the high lumen LED lamps and are doing it correctly.
Indeed see Pat's recent SWAT magazine article on this subject matter. It's probably the best in print article on the whole high lumen light debate. Lot's or rumors and not so correct information over the years.
Vic
Wish I could find that article online! Dont have that mag laying around at the PD....
So if we have concluded that 500 lumens is OK for CQB.... I guess it comes down to would you choose the SF x300 Ultra or P2X Fury?
Alaskapopo
11-01-12, 01:14
So if we have concluded that 500 lumens is OK for CQB.... I guess it comes down to would you choose the SF x300 Ultra or P2X Fury?
I always take a weapon mounted light over just a handheld. The reality is you need both.
Pat
So if we have concluded that 500 lumens is OK for CQB.... I guess it comes down to would you choose the SF x300 Ultra or P2X Fury?
Like Alaskapopo said, you need a handheld and a WML.
Very good excuse to buy both;).
Buying just enough light for CQB is folly. If you get put on a long range perimeter or a park/open/wooded operation, you'll be left wishing for more light, or at least one with more throw vs. spill. Don't get sucked into the "we only do entries" mindset.
If your reticle washes out, it could be because you selected a brightness setting based on the ambient lighting conditions, as opposed to using a light. I use a 250 lumen light on my work gun. Setting 8 or 9 on my H1 covers all the bases for me.
Not only hand-held and weaponlights, but what about using one tight- and one wide-beam? I think for searching I prefer a wider throw, but I'd rather my weaponlight is tighter. In my mind, if I'm pointing my weapon at something I've already identified that it may need shooting...but note that using 2 lights is more easily oriented towards handgun, not long gun, use.
I always take a weapon mounted light over just a handheld. The reality is you need both.
Pat
Like Alaskapopo said, you need a handheld and a WML.
Very good excuse to buy both;).
Sorry, let me re-phrase that....
which would you rather have on your rifle? Fury or x300 ultra?
Personally, I use G2s on my long guns, with aftermarket (250 lumen) emitters, mounted at 10:00. This works well for me and my needs. Then again, when I set this up, there was no 500 lumen X300 available.
jonconsiglio
11-02-12, 09:49
Double post
jonconsiglio
11-02-12, 09:50
Sorry, let me re-phrase that....
which would you rather have on your rifle? Fury or x300 ultra?
Don't forget about the Scout with the ultra head, which should be available in a few months.
Don't forget about the Scout with the ultra head, which should be available in a few months.
Gonna take a wild guess and just assume that will likely be WAY outa my $250 budget :D
Alaskapopo
11-02-12, 22:55
X300 ultra at 12 oclock.
Gonna take a wild guess and just assume that will likely be WAY outa my $250 budget :D
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the new 500 Scout head will be sold separately and will fit on an E2DL body. That should fit your budget, and hopefully my E2DL.
Voodoo_Man
11-03-12, 00:05
I have found that anything above 100 or so lumen inside a structure, especially a home with white/reflective walls will temp blind or white spot you.
I put tlr1s on my rifles and they work great. I would suggest running some dryfire clears with whatever light system you want after letting your eyes adjust after sunset. When I had a tlr1s on my pistol I still used the 20lumen low setting on my handheld to do clears.
Just my .02
When you blind your self that is too much light. I use a light that can vary the light output by twisting the tail cap. It goes 425 IIRC max and 5 lumens low.
X300 ultra at 12 oclock.
This is what I am leaning towards...
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the new 500 Scout head will be sold separately and will fit on an E2DL body. That should fit your budget, and hopefully my E2DL.
Honeslty, this is the first I had heard of the new Scout 500 head... and honestly, i dont know anything about the Scout series because they just seemed very expensive!
I have found that anything above 100 or so lumen inside a structure, especially a home with white/reflective walls will temp blind or white spot you.
I put tlr1s on my rifles and they work great. I would suggest running some dryfire clears with whatever light system you want after letting your eyes adjust after sunset. When I had a tlr1s on my pistol I still used the 20lumen low setting on my handheld to do clears.
Just my .02
I currently have a TLR1. Inside houses/apartments it does well. Inside larger buildings/warehouses and outside work it leaves something to be desired i think :)
Voodoo_Man
11-03-12, 09:56
I currently have a TLR1. Inside houses/apartments it does well. Inside larger buildings/warehouses and outside work it leaves something to be desired i think :)
could always get this bad boy
http://www.streamlight.com/product/product.aspx?pid=252
Guys I know have also had great success with the surefire 300 ultra...
http://www.surefire.com/x300-ultra-led-weaponlight.html
jonconsiglio
11-03-12, 16:35
Gonna take a wild guess and just assume that will likely be WAY outa my $250 budget :D
Missed that part bro, sorry! Well, not if you already have a scout and just buy the ultra head...
I have noticed that while shooting at a indoor tactical event that 150 lumens sorta drowns out my TFO's on my pistol. I started using a light that is 100 lumen and it was much better I could actually see my sights then.
Well, the surefire eb1 was a huge letdown, so while waiting for the 500 lumen scout head reviews, I bought a malkoff m61sho and vme. It will turn my m600 into a 385otf lumen light.
Great thread here, glad I found it. Thinking of replacing a couple of my G2 lights with the fury, now to find a decent price.
Here's a comparison of the x300 and the Ultra version
Here's a comparison of the x300 and the Ultra version
Thanks for posting that!
Another concern;
Mouted at 12 oclock, on an SBR, do we need to worry about the blast damaging the light?
IMO no. It's an LED, not a lamp with a filament. There is nothing to damage as far as shock or vibration, The small driver circuit is potted in some material as well, so there is little to damage.
Slvr Surfr
11-23-12, 15:15
Here's a comparison of the x300 and the Ultra version
Nice comparo. I'm glad I have one on order.
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