View Full Version : Indoor Concussion: AR SBR vs Shotgun
DontCome2MyHouse
10-28-12, 22:21
Since I haven't shot either indoors I wanted to known which was less like to blow my eardrums out for that "bump in the night". 11.5" unsuppressed in 5.56 or 18" 12 gauge?
Since I haven't shot either indoors I wanted to known which was less like to blow my eardrums out for that "bump in the night". 11.5" unsuppressed in 5.56 or 18" 12 gauge?
I am waiting for a form 4 to clear for a 14" mossberg 590. I was thinking of using it for hd duty, so at my dealers range I tried shooting it indoors. Without ear pro...
His particular range has some material on the walls to absorb sound and is pretty small, only 4 lanes and is only ~18 meters long, so it kinda sorta feels like a large room.
In all honesty, it sucked but not as bad as I thought. Granted, I was expecting the absolute worst. I couldn't hear properly for a couple minutes afterwards.
I may get a bunch of ridicule for my confession, but I figured that if I ever needed to use it indoors, I want to know what to expect.
I have fired my 16" ar indoors. I would compare the tone of the shotgun to a grunt whereas the ar is more like a scream. It feels like a much lower tone, but it seems to last longer. the echo does not seem as pronounced as the ar. I personally think the shotgun as the lesser of two evils.
I have read on the Internet that in a high stress situation you are less likely to notice the loud noise. Having never been In such a situation, I have no idea.
That being said, after my little experiment I decided to use a handgun for hd use... Hopefully a suppressed one. Simply for the fact that I couldn't hear anything for a few minutes after the shot and to me that seems more like a disadvantage than anything else. The last thing I want is for my wife or kids to call out for help and I can't hear it...
Hope this helps a bit!
Why not go with pistol for the bumpin in the night(:p) There all going to be to loud for comfort. !!info off net, so up to own to confirm!! 12 gauge shotgun 165 dB.22 caliber rifle 130dB
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB.
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB.
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB.
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB. In 18" barrel 163.2dB.
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB.
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB. 26" barrel 150.25dB. 18" barrel 156.30dB.
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB. 22" barrel 154.75dB.
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB. 26" barrel 156.10dB. 18" barrel 161.50dB.
.25 ACP 155.0 dB.
.32 LONG 152.4 dB.
.32 ACP 153.5 dB.
.380 157.7 dB.
9mm 159.8 dB.
.38 S&W 153.5 dB.
.38 Spl 156.3 dB.
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB.
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB.
.44 Spl 155.9 dB.
.45 ACP 157.0 dB.
.45 COLT 154.7 dB.
In narrow hallway, all three prob blow ear drums. I'd still say pistol tho..Pistol the original CQB!!:ph34r:
Who cares? Any weapon is going to be loud in the middle of the night whether it be a pistol, shotgun or SBR.
The important thing is that you stop the threat and since the 5.56 has less penetration, more ammo capacity and the ability to penetrate body armor that is the way to go.
Who cares? Any weapon is going to be loud in the middle of the night whether it be a pistol, shotgun or SBR.
The important thing is that you stop the threat and since the 5.56 has less penetration, more ammo capacity and the ability to penetrate body armor that is the way to go.While your right about the armor; I would like to point out, a Glock 9mm (very common HD weapon) with 30 rd mag can carry same (vs p-mags)or even more ammo (vs GI mags)because it doesn't have to be downloaded.EDIT: just looked at Glock store they have 33rd mags now too..
Correct. And there are plenty of people who don't own Glocks and all that do don't always use them as a bedside gun.
The 9mm can still penetrate further and will still not penetrate armor. Personally I like to have my AR next to the bed as well as a pistol which I would give to my significant other.
While your right about the armor; I would like to point out, a Glock 9mm (very common HD weapon) with 30 rd mag can carry same (vs p-mags)or even more ammo (vs GI mags)because it doesn't have to be downloaded.EDIT: just looked at Glock store they have 33rd mags now too..
uncle money bags
10-29-12, 02:53
To answer the op's question, my experience is that you will be less deaf with the shotgun in the barrel length you specified.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
10-29-12, 03:57
OP-- I keep a pair of electronics on my bed stand next to my shotgun (back up handgun in drawer). If you have time, put them on. You'll be able to hear ambient sounds better too because of the amplification. I prefer my shotgun over my carbine in this situation even if the intruder is wearing armor-- 00 buck with a folo-on steel slug will make it a bad evening for him regardless. Plus, I like the first shot spread from a shotgun versus a carbine-- especially when I'm waking up bleary eyed in the middle of the night (it's just me and my lady in the bedroom so I don't need to worry about clearing rooms or kids)-- YMMV. Having said that, my middy is loaded and ready to go next to her side of the bed...
I've been around two handguns that were fired indoors (NDs) and have fired rifles and shotguns w/o hearing pro outdoors.
Generally, anything that's capable of seriously injuring a man is going to damage your hearing. Shotguns are lower pressure than 556 rifles and hurt ears less, but reflected blast off of walls and such negate most of that advantage.
If I ever need a weapon to fight inside the house with, I'm picking the most effective tool, which for me is either a 556 rifle with 62gr JHPs or the AK with 124gr Vmax.
Rifle>Shotgun>Pistol>Knife>Pointy Stick...
H
OldGrayGuy
10-29-12, 06:13
To my way of thinking I will select the weapon that I feel will best defend my family.
Not trying to turn this into a shotgun bashing thread but in my opinion there isn't much point in comparing a shotgun to a short barreled AR-15. The move by people who go in harms way for a living, self included, have moved so far away from the shotgun that it is frequently relegated to breach doors when explosives aren't practical or available. In my experience, where this isn't the case it is because of budgetary reasons or plain ignorance.
Not to say there is anything better ballistically speaking than a load of 12 gauge buckshot but when you start to look at the weapons package the shotgun list of cons is way too long for this guy to not pick the AR every time. I began my career when the shotgun still enjoyed widespread acceptance and have to thank all those whose hard work put more AR-15's in the hands of those who go in harms way for a living.
Pick the tool you want for the job that you feel needs to be done. The issue of how much noise my firearm makes is pretty inconsequential to me, I prefer to try and focus on my tactics and don't need to be distracted by any verbals from my wife or other bystanders.
In a perfect world I want an AR-15 in my hands and a pistol on my belt when bad stuff happens.
Shotguns and pistols are good but in a serious fight I am confident that those in the know will go with some variant of the AR-15 / M-16 platform most every time.
Gunz nailed it. The carbine/SBR is the fighting weapon of choice inside a building.
If you pick a pistol to fight with on your home court, you need a mental evaluation.
Seems to me there has been way too much discussion over the noise from carbines indoors issue. Its a known fact that that they are the most effective tool for HD and 155-160db is gonna be loud regardless to what makes the noise so why worry about it. If I needed to defend my home I wouldn't care about the noise. I tell people that if it really concerns them that much they should really consider other options because "how loud will this be" really could end up being the last thing on their mind if it causes them to hesitate rather than act at that crucial moment.
Failure2Stop
10-29-12, 08:26
Seems to me there has been way too much discussion over the noise from carbines indoors issue. Its a known fact that that they are the most effective tool for HD and 155-160db is gonna be loud regardless to what makes the noise so why worry about it. If I needed to defend my home I wouldn't care about the noise. I tell people that if it really concerns them that much they should really consider other options because "how loud will this be" really could end up being the last thing on their mind if it causes them to hesitate rather than act at that crucial moment.
Agreed.
Further, unless you do it frequently, it isn't going to have lasting effect on your hearing.
Seems to me there has been way too much discussion over the noise from carbines indoors issue. Its a known fact that that they are the most effective tool for HD and 155-160db is gonna be loud regardless to what makes the noise so why worry about it. If I needed to defend my home I wouldn't care about the noise. I tell people that if it really concerns them that much they should really consider other options because "how loud will this be" really could end up being the last thing on their mind if it causes them to hesitate rather than act at that crucial moment.
Absolutely. People sweating this B.S. have their priorities totally ****ed up...
DontCome2MyHouse
10-29-12, 08:39
Absolutely. People sweating this B.S. have their priorities totally ****ed up...
Just curious more than anything else. Either way it's going to be loud as hell.
DontCome2MyHouse
10-29-12, 08:44
OP-- I keep a pair of electronics on my bed stand next to my shotgun (back up handgun in drawer). If you have time, put them on. You'll be able to hear ambient sounds better too because of the amplification. I prefer my shotgun over my carbine in this situation even if the intruder is wearing armor-- 00 buck with a folo-on steel slug will make it a bad evening for him regardless. Plus, I like the first shot spread from a shotgun versus a carbine-- especially when I'm waking up bleary eyed in the middle of the night (it's just me and my lady in the bedroom so I don't need to worry about clearing rooms or kids)-- YMMV. Having said that, my middy is loaded and ready to go next to her side of the bed...
I've read of people having electronic hearing protection next to the bed. Seems to be gaining popularity/acceptance. Takes about two seconds to put on.
Electronic ears freak me out. I need to get a good pair and see if I can get used to them.
Just curious more than anything else. Either way it's going to be loud as hell.
Yeah.. I don't mean to be cranky about it... but some guy got me pissed off with a QD swivel thread already this morning. :p
Failure2Stop
10-29-12, 08:55
Electronic ears freak me out. I need to get a good pair and see if I can get used to them.
Come to the dark side, they're great.
Not so sure about expecting to be able to deploy them in a "gotta go now" type scenario though.
Can you pick up on the direction of a noise with Electronics? That's the part that bugs me.
Failure2Stop
10-29-12, 09:30
Can you pick up on the direction of a noise with Electronics? That's the part that bugs me.
The mics are directional, so not with the accuracy as you will with naked ears.
5.56 has less penetration, ... and the ability to penetrate body armor
You'd think those two things would cancel each other out... :)
I wonder just how many bump in the night situations have actually ever included body armor on the part of the bump creator?
To the OP: For HD, I'm of the mind that neither carbine or shotgun are great. You may need to open doors, grab kids, be on the phone, operate locks or lights, restrain or release a dog, move toppled furniture, etc etc. All things you need at least one free hand for. How confident are you in your ability to run a shotgun or carbine one handed with let's say a kid in your other arm? Personally, I keep my suppressor on my 9mm with a light I can active using one hand. No deafness, no flash, one handed operation, no excessive length or size. Just my opinion though.
You'd think those two things would cancel each other out... :)
I wonder just how many bump in the night situations have actually ever included body armor on the part of the bump creator?
The AR will go through soft armor and dump it's energy in to a bad guy. It also is a poor barrier (wall/Glass) performer which makes it ideal for home defense.
Body armor is becoming a little more common in home invasion style crime. Although rare, just anther plus to the carbine and negative to pistol or bird gun.
The AR will go through soft armor and dump it's energy in to a bad guy. It also is a poor barrier (wall/Glass) performer which makes it ideal for home defense.
Body armor is becoming a little more common in home invasion style crime. Although rare, just anther plus to the carbine and negative to pistol or bird gun.
The argument to me still comes down to points of contact where I'm much more accurate with a stocked weapon than a pistol, and between shotgun and AR I'd rather have to deal with a 16" carbine than even an SBS. Double stamp is what I'm working towards to make that a bit better, but touching off any sort of explosive charge through a steel pipe indoors is going to be a ringer.
DontCome2MyHouse
10-29-12, 14:45
For the record the shotgun I own is the Kel-Tec KSG. It's overall length is an inch shorter than my 11.5" SBR.
Army Chief
10-29-12, 16:35
Plenty of good food for thought here, but as with most things, there is also a great deal of potential for us to over-analyze. Sometimes there is value in that, too, but imagine your local constable's surprise if he arrives to confirm you're clear at 0330 in the morning, and you're sitting there in a full-on SWAT rig -- right down to your ear pro, looking like a potential part of the problem, and not necessarily like the fix. Personally, I'm all about meeting the boys in blue at the front door in my drawers and robe with some hastily thrown-on boots and my carbine held loosely in reserve. Ready -- but by no means spoiling for a fight.
Backing things up a bit, I do agree with the idea of the bedside pistol/light combination. I further agree that an appropriately-configured carbine within quick reach of the bed is a great idea. Got armor/mag carrier in the room? Check. Ear pro? Aye ... but again, what exactly are we trying to accomplish at this point?
As always, much will depend upon whether you're living alone, or with a family. Whether you are simply seeking to barricade an upper floor for safety, or have a real need to begin clearing a structure. Always be as prepared as possible, but recognize that 0330 bump-in-the-night scenarios are, by definition, disorienting and chaotic. You can choose to jock up for a fight, but you should probably be devoting that planning time and brain power to figuring out how to safeguard, barricade and/or slip away from the site.
Finally, de-constructing this thing the rest of the way, situations like these remind me that hardening the target well in advance of any potential assault is always preferred to waking up with someone admiring your cookware or HD video equipment downstairs. Have you got motion-sensitive security lighting on the perimeter? An alarmed property? Quality locks? Dogs? An informal checklist to a make sure that the house is locked-down properly after everyone is in for the night? Adequate (low-level) ilumination on within the structure throughout the night? As always, the idea is to minimize the likelihood that any opportunists will choose your home at random.
To get (somewhat) back on topic, try to take some competent training in a shoot house, and you can get a much better sense for the concussive effects of longarm v. sidearm, suppressor v. compensator and the like. Shooting any firearm inside of an enclosed structure is going to be unpleasant experience, but there are several ways of dealing with the problem, and a suppressed carbine is easily among the best.
AC
QuietShootr
10-29-12, 19:58
SBR+suppressor... solves all the problems.
And yes, I have armor next to my bed too :-D
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