View Full Version : Seeking 870 SBS advice. 12-14"
So... I recently took Costa's shotgun class with an 870 and my Benelli m1. HUGE fan of the m1, but I'd still like a pump for less lethal / animal control load, hiking/truck gun or whatever.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to me to have an 18" 870 and the 18" m1. So I got to thinking about a short 870. I'd love a short Benelli but the parts are just too expensive to replace.
It seems there are two popular styles. A 12.5" that is cut directly in line with the factory tube cap, leaving 4+1. And a 14" that is cut directly in line with the +1 extension for 5+1.
During that class I saw the usefulness of having a mag tube extend past the barrel just a little bit. One advantage this offered was a natural standoff for breaching which I do not plan on doing, but am not ruling out. And it was handy to set the shotgun down on the mag tube occasionally while resting or working on something without concern of putting the muzzle into anything, likewise, this creates a general protection for the muzzle.
My thought was to take a +1 extension and cut the barrel down to 13" or so. Leaving me with 5+1, and a protected muzzle. And probably forgo the ghost or rifle sights and just use a rib along with a fiber optic. I want a rib because it's easier to line up a flat shot with a rib, a protected fiberoptic would just be easier to see than a bead. I can find no examples of this setup anywhere, so either I'm being dumb or not considering a better option.
Would it be better to just select a 14 or 12" in traditional format?
Has anyone done an SBS with a rib and fiber?
Does anyone have experience with 12 vs 14" as far as noise/blast and usefulness?
Does anyone have experience with 12 vs 14" as far as noise/blast and usefulness?
Both are completely useless. Mine came with a 12", but I ended up buying a 14" factory Rem barrel.
When Flight control wads came along, 00 buck was a lot less useless in my shorty. But I literally never shoot it. It's in the back of the locker.
If it weren't an NFA item, I'd quick sell it for the extra room.
TriumphRat675
10-29-12, 13:13
markm, can you elaborate on their uselessness?
I generally believe that most NFA firearms are, if not useless, way overrated compared to the amount of hassle it takes to get and keep them, but I have always wanted a 14" 870.
Ok, useless is definitely not correct. You might be useless with it, but that's something else entirely isn't it? :)
I use flightcontrol 1buck and 00buck so I'm aware of the options and limitations. I'm just curious I suppose of what you think an 18" 6+1 is good for that a 12" 4+1 just won't do...
I suppose you are just talking about the patterning with the longer barrel? What distances do you think your 14" is pushing fed tactical out to keeping a 10" or so pattern?
TriumphRat675: Completely wrong about NFA. Some guns suck in their short or long barrel configurations. An SBR 10/22 might not be worth it, but an SBR AR definitely is.
TriumphRat675
10-29-12, 14:01
TriumphRat675: Completely wrong about NFA. Some guns suck in their short or long barrel configurations. An SBR 10/22 might not be worth it, but an SBR AR definitely is.
Don't mean to derail your thread, but I have in my possession both a 16" AR and an 11.5" AR, am familiar with the NFA, the CFR, and the misconceptions and foul-ups that are common among people trying to do an end-run around their local CLEO with trusts, LLC's, and etc., with or without the advice of counsel.
My considered opinion is that for the vast majority of ordinary citizens, unless they live in an enlightened locale where they can own an NFA item personally, whatever purported performance advantage NFA firearms provide over and above non-NFA firearms is not worth the administrative hassle or potential criminal consequences, to the extent that I advise clients against doing it. NFA toys are fun to have and definitely make you the cool guy at the range, but I don't see their benefits exceeding their actual and potential cost.
That is my opinion only and YMMV.
based on my recent SBR dealings, I tend to agree... I hope my wife really likes it if we ever get the paperwork back. I dumped the SBR and went with a custom config. 16" with more options.
So no actual on topic detail about 12-14" shotguns?
xrayoneone
10-30-12, 19:44
I've never shot a 12" barreled gun but I don't think you'll see much of a difference between that and a 14" gun. I have plenty of rounds through 14" 870s with modified chokes and I honestly don't see the point from my personal 18".
Out of the 14" barrels With 00 buck at 25 yards aiming center mass 8 out of 9 pellets will land inside a man size target. So you're really looking at 15 yard and closer with buck. With slugs I can get 5 to land in a 6" circle at 50 yards. I've never benched one so I don't know how accurate our 14" inchers can be.
Honestly I'll stick with my 18" tubes and not deal with the expense of an NFA shotty.
So no actual on topic detail about 12-14" shotguns?
I don't have a short 870 but I do have a 14" M1S90. I don't think I'd want a 12", the extra round would be far more useful.
I also don't think I'd want a 12" barrel with an extended mag tube. I've never even come close to needing a protected crown on a shotgun and IF I ever need to breech a door I'm sure I will remember to hold off enough.
And while I don't think it would damage the extension performancewise, I know the surefires on my MP5s which extend past the barrel get pretty cooked from the flash and that is only 9mm.
Perhaps your optimum setup is a 14" with same length extended magazine tube and then mount a light to the extended magazine tube and have that light extend an inch or so beyond the magazine tube but lower than the tube itself.
I run a 14" 870 as a duty SG. With Flite contol 00 loads 15 yard head shots are doable, all pellets can be covered with a fist. Mine is an older Scattergun Tech with a sidesaddle and a 618FA Surefire light. I just wish they'd let me change the stock. I do not like the Speedfeed; too 'effin long.
Sorry to say this, but your post makes little sense at all. A trust, LLC or Corporation is not an end run around CLEO signatures.
Also using an NFA weapon has zero ramifications in a self defense scenario. A good legal shoot is a good shoot. A bad one is a bad one. Please don't cite the outdated McFadden case either.
Don't mean to derail your thread, but I have in my possession both a 16" AR and an 11.5" AR, am familiar with the NFA, the CFR, and the misconceptions and foul-ups that are common among people trying to do an end-run around their local CLEO with trusts, LLC's, and etc., with or without the advice of counsel.
My considered opinion is that for the vast majority of ordinary citizens, unless they live in an enlightened locale where they can own an NFA item personally, whatever purported performance advantage NFA firearms provide over and above non-NFA firearms is not worth the administrative hassle or potential criminal consequences, to the extent that I advise clients against doing it. NFA toys are fun to have and definitely make you the cool guy at the range, but I don't see their benefits exceeding their actual and potential cost.
That is my opinion only and YMMV.
TriumphRat675
10-31-12, 10:11
Sorry to say this, but your post makes little sense at all. A trust, LLC or Corporation is not an end run around CLEO signatures.
Understand that I am using the phrase "end run" in a practical sense and not in a legal one - I should have made that clear. If people could individually purchase NFA items without having to get a CLEO signature, I think most would rather do that instead of setting up a trust. Most people I've talked to go the trust route to avoid having to bother with the CLEO signature or because their CLEO won't sign off on their application, etc. So in a practical sense, my statement is correct.
It's true that a trust has other benefits which have been hashed to death around here, chiefly flexibility and the ability of more than one person to use the NFA firearm, but it is also less convenient to set up and imposes fiduciary duties and other obligations on the trustee that most people ignore.
Your "zero ramifications" statement could not be more wrong.
Some shoots are good and some are bad. Shoot a guy kicking down your front door with a shotgun in hand, screaming that he's going to kill your whole family, all captured on tape? Good. Shoot a guy in a shopping mall for no reason? Bad. The gun you use doesn't matter all that much in those cases.
Where the gun you use can matter - and I know that it can matter because I have sat in the courtroom in rural Texas watching a prosecutor argue to a jury that the defendant's use of a AR in a self-defense shooting is evidence of bad motive - is when the shoot isn't really good or bad but is in a grey area in between. Guess what? There are lots of grey zone shoots. And if you get arrested and prosecuted for one, a prosecutor absolutely can argue that your tarted-up, silenced SBR is some evidence of bad motive on your part, and the jury can believe that, and that might make all the difference in the world to you.
If you do not believe me, you should look into it (http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/). Suzy Soccermom on your jury is not a member of this forum and doesn't like guns at all, let alone scary SBR's.
CleverNickname
10-31-12, 10:38
I have an 870 SBS. I originally used the factory 18" barrel cut down to 12.5", but it now has a factory 14.5" barrel and a 1-round extension on it, the tradeoff vs. length is worth it to get the extra round. In fact if I had a do-over I wouldn't form 1 it again and just save the $200.
doriwoogie
10-31-12, 12:03
I've got a 870 sbs as well. I can't really tell much difference in blast/noise from when it was 18" and after it was cut down to 12.5". As far as usefulness, I'm just a civilian, and to be honest this was more of a range toy for me. It does "point" better than when it was 18". The barrel is cut even with the magazine tbue endcap, and I had a Vangcomp front sight installed.
Also, since you mentioned ribs, there's one guy (username luckyguy1) in the shotgun pic thread that has a 14" with the barrel rib and Scattergun/Wilson sights that I think is pretty slick. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=535&page=42 (1) It's about midway down page 42.
1) Regarding the OP's question: I can't comment on bbls shorter than 14". Our work guns are 14" 870's and they are plenty maneuverable in rooms/vehicles. As was mentioned, I'd rather have an extra shell in the tube than a shorter bbl. We shoot out to 50 yards with slugs and even the people who only shoot when forced to for quals easily make their hits.
I've long wanted a 14" Mossy 590A1 or Benelli M4 but they never seem to make it to the top of my want list. Given the known effectiveness of carbines I probably won't get any more shotties unless I win the lottery.
The only exception for me is the Serbu AOW. I'd love to have one to sit in my lap when doing surveillance in "sporty" neighborhoods. Plus the stamp is only $5. But again, for me there are lots of other things I'd buy ahead of it.
2) Regarding the legal malarkey (that seems to creep into threads more often than it should): If your weapon is legally owned then I personally wouldn't give it a second thought. If you did have to face a bleeding heart/commie prosecutor, make sure to point out all the LE agencies who use short bbl carbines and shotties daily. If you're that concerned about it - maybe buy a replica of what your local or state PD uses.
The CLEO signature is a non-issue now since ATF did away with the requirement. It was only a side benefit to me using a trust anyway. I chose a trust because it allows trustees (think spouse, kids who are of age, siblings, etc.) to use the NFA items without me being present. It also affords them the ability to legally possess them if I meet an untimely end.
The same "legal" arguments can be made for painting our guns. I will not let an internet attorney scare me away from the actual law. YMMV.
ETA: Looks like I jumped the gun. ATF has not yet killed the CLEO signature requirement.
TriumphRat675
10-31-12, 13:49
The same "legal" arguments can be made for painting our guns. I will not let an internet attorney scare me away from the actual law. YMMV.
I have some experience as an attorney on both the civil and criminal side of things and have personally seen the type of firearm used become an issue in a criminal prosecution. You can choose to ignore the possibility that it will later be an issue or not, but the possibility remains.
OP, apologies for muddying up your thread.
Never mind, don't want to derail the OP's thread any further.
I would love to hear more about this case. All of my weapons are legally owned and I am not afraid of the so called "evil firearm" bogey man. Additionally in Arizona it is very difficult to be charged if you claim self defense. This was done by our legislature after the Harold Fish incident.
The link you referred me to was most based upon studies conducted in the mid to late 90's and attitudes have changed since then. Any competent lawyer could pick apart any such demonization of his client with a little effort.
Go start another thread about legal bs guys.
As to the topic I started, I think what I'll do is the +1 with the barrel cut back just under the end of that tube. So, a 13.25" or so 870 with the +1. That seems the best of both worlds.
If I find I need something shorter there is always the 10" barrel, MCS pump/tube assembly and a birds head grip ;)
I think the 13-14" will work fine. Also, thanks for the pic of the gun with the rib. I love it. That's the plan currently a rib with a fiber on it, no rear sight. If I need something better than that it'll be a mini red dot.
doriwoogie
10-31-12, 20:02
Yea I love that guy's sbs. I thought about doing that but I didn't want to buy a new barrel and quote from my gunsmith to do that was a bit more. Good luck with your project!
Don't mean to derail your thread, but I have in my possession both a 16" AR and an 11.5" AR, am familiar with the NFA, the CFR, and the misconceptions and foul-ups that are common among people trying to do an end-run around their local CLEO with trusts, LLC's, and etc., with or without the advice of counsel.
My considered opinion is that for the vast majority of ordinary citizens, unless they live in an enlightened locale where they can own an NFA item personally, whatever purported performance advantage NFA firearms provide over and above non-NFA firearms is not worth the administrative hassle or potential criminal consequences, to the extent that I advise clients against doing it. NFA toys are fun to have and definitely make you the cool guy at the range, but I don't see their benefits exceeding their actual and potential cost.
That is my opinion only and YMMV.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
TriumphRat675
11-03-12, 12:22
I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Name one thing you can do with an SBR or SBS that you can't accomplish with a non-NFA firearm AND that is absolutely necessary to your exciting life as a keyborne commando.
Now factor in administrative headaches, tax and tax stamps, storage requirements, fooling with ATF bureaucracy, legalities of a trust in your jurisdiction, the fiduciary duties to your trust's beneficiaries - which include not diminishing the value of trust assets by, say, using them - which you may or may not be able to wire around depending on your state laws...for what gain? Is it worth the hassle to you? Ok, drive on. I'll set up the trust and walk you through the process.
At the end of the day if you give it some thought it's not half as bad as doing your taxes, but if you're the type to go to the range once a year then what is the point. And it seems like a lot of people with an interest in NFA firearms don't want to be bothered to think about it.
I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Name one thing you can do with an SBR or SBS that you can't accomplish with a non-NFA firearm AND that is absolutely necessary to your exciting life as a keyborne commando.
Now factor in administrative headaches, tax and tax stamps, storage requirements, fooling with ATF bureaucracy, legalities of a trust in your jurisdiction, the fiduciary duties to your trust's beneficiaries - which include not diminishing the value of trust assets by, say, using them - which you may or may not be able to wire around depending on your state laws...for what gain? Is it worth the hassle to you? Ok, drive on. I'll set up the trust and walk you through the process.
At the end of the day if you give it some thought it's not half as bad as doing your taxes, but if you're the type to go to the range once a year then what is the point. And it seems like a lot of people with an interest in NFA firearms don't want to be bothered to think about it.
It may not be worth the cost to YOU... Doesn't mean that we see it that way.
TriumphRat675
11-03-12, 16:48
You're absolutely right. It's totally subjective.
I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Name one thing you can do with an SBR or SBS that you can't accomplish with a non-NFA firearm AND that is absolutely necessary to your exciting life as a keyborne commando.
Now factor in administrative headaches, tax and tax stamps, storage requirements, fooling with ATF bureaucracy, legalities of a trust in your jurisdiction, the fiduciary duties to your trust's beneficiaries - which include not diminishing the value of trust assets by, say, using them - which you may or may not be able to wire around depending on your state laws...for what gain? Is it worth the hassle to you? Ok, drive on. I'll set up the trust and walk you through the process.
At the end of the day if you give it some thought it's not half as bad as doing your taxes, but if you're the type to go to the range once a year then what is the point. And it seems like a lot of people with an interest in NFA firearms don't want to be bothered to think about it.
This post is a perfect example of what I talk about on here all the time.
Someone telling people who own six, seven, or more figures worth of firearms how shit is going to roll.
TriumphRat675
11-03-12, 22:28
This post is a perfect example of what I talk about on here all the time.
Someone telling people who own six, seven, or more figures worth of firearms how shit is going to roll.
I always thought the majority of what you talked about on here consisted of trolling and being wrong in the technical forums.
Re-read my posts and try to figure out if the people I am referring to are serious collectors or first time dilettantes.
If you need assistance feel free to PM me.
It's true that a trust has other benefits which have been hashed to death around here, chiefly flexibility and the ability of more than one person to use the NFA firearm, but it is also less convenient to set up and imposes fiduciary duties and other obligations on the trustee that most people ignore.
Right now, I'm about 70 miles from Iran, and I just set up yet another NFA trust. There is no way I could have gotten fingerprints or photographs where I am. A trust is in every way better and more convenient than an individual transfer, especially if you leave the douche nozzle lawyers out of the process. The hardest part becomes writing the check.
As to the original post, to me, shotguns are good for two things, duck hunting and breaching, and I don't duck hunt. Ok, three, if you count making me giggle.
To solve the 'I don't know what size to make my SBS' question, use a Mossberg. Unlike the 870, the magazine tube is threaded, and removable. You can swap entire front ends out, from Serbu sized super-shorties, to full sized fouling barrels. One tax stamp, any size gun.
To solve the 'I don't know what size to make my SBS' question, use a Mossberg. Unlike the 870, the magazine tube is threaded, and removable. You can swap entire front ends out, from Serbu sized super-shorties, to full sized fouling barrels. One tax stamp, any size gun.
Thanks for your service.
But you kind of ruined my plans here! I was not aware the 870's pump assembly was soldered in place. I had thought it would be possible to get a short throw pump and 10" barrel ala the MCS parts. Apparently not possible. I can't justify the SBS stamp if I can only run one single configuration. If the pump assembly was adjustable like the Mossberg, I could run a 10" birdshead and 14" SBS which would be perfect in terms of options. It "might" be possible to do an 870 with the MCS assembly and run 10" and 14" barrel, but doesn't seem possible to do with a field stock so, I'm not sure I want to go that route. I hate the function of ammo changeovers on the Mossberg, so those are out too.
Instead it seems like I'll probably hang out with an 18" 870 and just live with that. If I suppose I could cut down a sxs to 18" for fun and a gun that's 6" shorter than the 870 but has obvious limitations too.
Plans snuffed. Oh well. Thanks everyone for the help.
The 870 mag tube is threaded. That is how I take my barrel off for cleaning/swapping to a longer barrel anyway.......
The mag tube to the receiver is not threaded........so you can't just screw it off to swap magazine tube length, but you can certainly run 12, 13, 14, 18, 24" barrels on it.
I also had the short barrel threaded to accept Rem chokes, and use a choke/stand-off on the little guy. I elected to use a 12" for SBS purposes, though I don't know that I would notice a difference in mobility with a 14.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/12.jpg
My decision for the SBS was solely because I can. I had the gun, the money, and the time to wait. And 6 other shotguns to fill in where I need a shotgun for shotgun purposes. Just the same, it will shoot slugs on par with the 18.5" barrel, and 00 on par with any of the others in the safe.
To clarify my original post, on an 870, the mag tube is silver soldered into the receiver, Mossberg threads them, and screws them in. If you want to go shorter than standard on an 870, it's a permanent modification. On Mossberg 500 or 590, you can go from a Serbu Super Shorty sized 10 incher that requires a short magazine tube, all the way up to an 8 round full sized magazine tube without any permanent modifications to the receiver or magazine tube.
That is how I understood it.
No, you can't make an 870 magazine shorter easily. So if you want to go Serbu short, perhaps a Mossberg is a better choice. I consider it to be a lower quality shotgun to the the 870, so if I was going to have such a limited application gun as a super short shotgun with a 2 round magazine, I would use the Mossberg as the host, simply to save the money.
But going to the super short, with super limited magazine capacity is really all you can't do with the Rem.........once you are up to a 4 round capacity, it is simply a matter of adding whichever extension you want, along with the barrel length you want.
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