View Full Version : To change or not to change?
Hello everyone, I have finally chosen to make an account and participate on this forum! This my favorite by far, I actually refer to it almost daily, but my account finally got approved so I can post now!
As the title reads: To change or not to change the gas system of the AR-15 platform?
No need to say what has already been beaten to death: The AR-15 platform can be improved, and needs to be, if only slightly.
So, I have been debating this thought all day today ever since after around 1,500 rounds through my BCM I have built up to 3 jams. All lubrication related. I have not been in the desert like Iraq, nor have I flipped the dust cover up and buried my gun, why would I? I know it will jam or run fine then jam, then that would take time to clear which will reduce my shooting output. ;)
Just in case you want to know the conditions of the jams these are it: around 800 to 900 rounds without a cleaning, up in the mountainous desert, after shooting many different rounds the previous night, and during the day, the bolt would not load the bullet in the chamber. It felt grimy and gritty pulling the charging handle and thus had a lot of resistance. The gun would cycle if the bolt would chamber a round, then it finally jammed while shooting. I quickly took out the LP Breakfree from my pistol grip, lubed it nicely, it shot the last 150 to 200 rounds or so perfectly.
Next, was yesterday, the gun was just cleaned after already said camping trip. Lightly lubed, then I fired 100 rounds at an indoor range. Did not lube though seeing the BCG seemed dry. Yesterday, it was hot, while at an outdoor range zeroing my iron sights, and my aimpoint Comp m3 with Mk318. The gun jammed once while firing, it failed to load the road. Then during rapid fire it failed to eject and produced a like double feed with the empty shell case and the fresh bullet. That was the final straw, busted out my handy LP from the pistol grip, problem solved!
So I know my guns failure point.
What do you think: keep the DI system, but get a Failzero BCG (nickel boron, "exo technology" or whatever they call it) along with the hammer, and keep the very high quality BCM or go for a LWRC? Who use a piston system along with nickel boron like coated BCG?
New DI technology or piston system?
I should add my AR is my go to gun for SHTF situations, whatever may happen. I plan on doing a lot of training once I am able. I am 18 and the pistol requirement at some is holding me back, and the money issue. I, however, will pay for a training class before buying a new rifle. This question is just for future reference and ideas.
Buy quality lube & apply generously. Problem solved.
uncle money bags
10-29-12, 22:13
Stop and take a breath...
Do what they guy above me suggested, ar bolts and bcgs like to be run wet.
Then read the stickies regarding maintenance.
To often people will get caught up in over thinking the problem and convince themselves that they need the newest whiz bang product that will solve all their problems.
Yeah I was thinking the same. I will get more experience in the coming years with my training.
uncle money bags
10-29-12, 22:29
What can I say? First you picked the right gun maker and you listen to common sense,you sir, are ahead of the curve.
What can I say? First you picked the right gun maker and you listen to common sense,you sir, are ahead of the curve.
Why, thank you. I apply what my jiujitsu coach once said during practice: "Stay humble, and learn."
I have learned that all the giget and gadgets of guns are cool, fascinating, and good money burners. I, however, have no business getting those things until I am well trained with my basic carbine.
But damn don't I wish I could be a tester of all those guns I see. :D
...The AR-15 platform can be improved, and needs to be, if only slightly...
Get to know the system better. There isn't much more that the AR gas system can be improved. Wipe down the BCG every now and again and keep it properly lubed. Too much oil is better than too little. The oil will suspend and carry off fouling and dirt.
The AR is not a direct impingement system. It already has a piston with gas rings, which is the tail end of the bolt and the carrier is the cylinder.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
If the rings are missing, damaged or worn, the rifle will not function. DI systems do not use rings, nor do they use an expansion chamber as the AR does. The original Stoner patent drawing shows how the gases flow into an expansion chamber to operate the piston & cylinder of the BCG
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Research/ARGasSystemDrawing.jpg
The key feature of the direct impingement system is that gases act directly on carrier. The gas travels down the tube and directly hits the carrier and drives it rearward to unlock the bolt. The following diagrams show the DI system of the Ljungman Ag m/42.
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/ag42/ag42_601det.jpg
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/ag42/ag42_301det.jpg
Eugene Stoner said in the original patent for his gas system “This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.”
The Stoner system is designed to be self regulating. When pressure builds enough to move the carrier, the key separates from the gas tube cutting off flow to the expansion chamber. Vents in the carrier to allow the gases to escape the cylinder when the gas seals move past. Momentum takes over and the BCG is returned to battery by the energy stored in the action spring. Eugene Stoner eliminated the actuator rod (op-rod) to “...provide smoother operation and longer life of the working parts...” The patent goes on to explain that since all the reciprocating mass and recoil is inline with the bore “all of the off center loads found in most other types of gas actuated weapons are eliminated” to cut down on muzzle climb during automatic fire.
The so-called “piston upper” (ie- Adams, HK416, LWRC etc.,) does not convert an AR from direct impingement system to a piston system. It converts the AR from an inline piston system to an offset piston system and adds an actuator rod.
The op-rod upper offers no advantage over the inline upper. Firing the rifle still generates the same amount of fouling, heat and recoil. One advantage the Stoner inline piston system has is the piston runs cooler and has a larger area to deal with fouling and heat. Moving the piston to the gas block places the piston to a place where rifles dump a lot heat as well as fouling and the piston is a much smaller diameter.
What can be improved? No matter what type of mechanism operates the rifle, lubrication is required. What is needed to keep your AR functioning in tip top condition is a trained and experienced shooter. Keep it lubed and give the BCG a wipe down as needed. Other than that, think MEAL-
MAGAZINES- No rifle function better than the system that feeds it. Buy good mags and toss them when the feed lips wear out or crack, make sure they have good followers and replace worn or broken springs
EXTRACTION/EJECTION- The spent case must be reliably extracted from the chamber and smartly ejected. Failure to do so will cause malfunctions. Make sure the extractor isn't worn or chipped and has a good spring. Make sure the ejector does not stick and has a good spring
AMMO- Bad ammo = bad performance. Ammo can be under-powered, erratic, prone to case separation, out of spec, cause sticky extraction and dangerous over pressure. Use good ammo and your rifle will give you stellar performance
LUBRICATION- Use a good oil. It doesn't have to be fancy or expensive but it does have to lubricate well (any lubrication is better than none). To repeat, oil suspends and carries away dirt & fouling and prevents galling.
Get to know your rifle better before thinking the gas system needs upgrading. Shoot the rifle and get to know it better. You'll soon see that a little maintenance the AR is very reliable and durable as is
For further study here is the link to Stoner Patent #2,951,424: http://www.google.com/patents?id=ETJjAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
Get to know the system better. There isn't much more that the AR gas system can be improved. Wipe down the BCG every now and again and keep it properly lubed. Too much oil is better than too little. The oil will suspend and carry off fouling and dirt.
The AR is not a direct impingement system. It already has a piston with gas rings, which is the tail end of the bolt and the carrier is the cylinder.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
If the rings are missing, damaged or worn, the rifle will not function. DI systems do not use rings, nor do they use an expansion chamber as the AR does. The original Stoner patent drawing shows how the gases flow into an expansion chamber to operate the piston & cylinder of the BCG
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Research/ARGasSystemDrawing.jpg
The key feature of the direct impingement system is that gases act directly on carrier. The gas travels down the tube and directly hits the carrier and drives it rearward to unlock the bolt. The following diagrams show the DI system of the Ljungman Ag m/42.
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/ag42/ag42_601det.jpg
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/ag42/ag42_301det.jpg
Eugene Stoner said in the original patent for his gas system “This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.”
The Stoner system is designed to be self regulating. When pressure builds enough to move the carrier, the key separates from the gas tube cutting off flow to the expansion chamber. Vents in the carrier to allow the gases to escape the cylinder when the gas seals move past. Momentum takes over and the BCG is returned to battery by the energy stored in the action spring. Eugene Stoner eliminated the actuator rod (op-rod) to “...provide smoother operation and longer life of the working parts...” The patent goes on to explain that since all the reciprocating mass and recoil is inline with the bore “all of the off center loads found in most other types of gas actuated weapons are eliminated” to cut down on muzzle climb during automatic fire.
The so-called “piston upper” (ie- Adams, HK416, LWRC etc.,) does not convert an AR from direct impingement system to a piston system. It converts the AR from an inline piston system to an offset piston system and adds an actuator rod.
The op-rod upper offers no advantage over the inline upper. Firing the rifle still generates the same amount of fouling, heat and recoil. One advantage the Stoner inline piston system has is the piston runs cooler and has a larger area to deal with fouling and heat. Moving the piston to the gas block places the piston to a place where rifles dump a lot heat as well as fouling and the piston is a much smaller diameter.
What can be improved? No matter what type of mechanism operates the rifle, lubrication is required. What is needed to keep your AR functioning in tip top condition is a trained and experienced shooter. Keep it lubed and give the BCG a wipe down as needed. Other than that, think MEAL-
MAGAZINES- No rifle function better than the system that feeds it. Buy good mags and toss them when the feed lips wear out or crack, make sure they have good followers and replace worn or broken springs
EXTRACTION/EJECTION- The spent case must be reliably extracted from the chamber and smartly ejected. Failure to do so will cause malfunctions. Make sure the extractor isn't worn or chipped and has a good spring. Make sure the ejector does not stick and has a good spring
AMMO- Bad ammo = bad performance. Ammo can be under-powered, erratic, prone to case separation, out of spec, cause sticky extraction and dangerous over pressure. Use good ammo and your rifle will give you stellar performance
LUBRICATION- Use a good oil. It doesn't have to be fancy or expensive but it does have to lubricate well (any lubrication is better than none). To repeat, oil suspends and carries away dirt & fouling and prevents galling.
Get to know your rifle better before thinking the gas system needs upgrading. Shoot the rifle and get to know it better. You'll soon see that a little maintenance the AR is very reliable and durable as is
For further study here is the link to Stoner Patent #2,951,424: http://www.google.com/patents?id=ETJjAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
Why I love this site! Thank you for that great post!
However, what about the material used for the BCG? Is nickel boron that much better?
I actually think the AR platform is one of the best designs out there, I really like it. I am just curious about new technologies.
Sorry if I seemed like I tried to sound like an authority saying the AR system must be improved. Are the new technologies of coatings for the bolt carrier groups, barrels, and hammers, "better?"
Nothing to apologize for. Some folks are willing to learn, some just repeat what they pick up on the internet, or heard in a gunshop as gospel. Wasn't sure which category you fit in at first. It seems you are willing to learn. That's good. Always check your facts.
In fact, I suggest that you check my conclusions for accuracy by doing your own research. Become your own Subject Matter Expert.
I have a FailZero NiB carrier with a standard bolt in m precision AR. The action seems smoother when run manually. The NiB carrier seems to hold less fouling than the parkerized carrier but that does not mean much as I do not run the precision AR nearly as hard as I do the carbine AR. As long as I keep the parked BCG lubed on the carbine, it runs without a hitch, even when switching between steel case, brass case and the rimfire adapter. Maybe I'll pop the NiB carrier in the carbine and give it a good workout next time out
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