View Full Version : Steyr is making a piston AR-15 now.
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-12, 04:11
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/10/30/steyr-mannlicher-stm556-ar-15-rifle/
Might actually be decent. Better than the SIG I hope.
filthy phil
10-30-12, 05:48
i bet its $2500
sweet though
Failure2Stop
10-30-12, 10:15
Fully ambidexterous? Funny, I can't seem to find the left side magazine release.
I bet they are going to regret that gas-block placement of the MBUS.
Is it a monolithic upper? Looks like it.
I wonder how LMT will feel about this, and it will be available in the US with that upper.
Looks cool, but wish they figured out something with the gas block so it was lower profile with no rail on it
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/10/30/steyr-mannlicher-stm556-ar-15-rifle/
Might actually be decent. Better than the SIG I hope.
What's your beef with the Sig? Just curious, I have over 4,000 rounds through an M400 with no problems. Thanks.
sinlessorrow
10-30-12, 22:17
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/10/30/steyr-mannlicher-stm556-ar-15-rifle/
Might actually be decent. Better than the SIG I hope.
Everyone is making AR-15's now days even Izmash.
theinvisibleheart
10-30-12, 22:38
VERY COOL! +1
Hope they introduce it into US commercial market and also, it's available in multiple calibers like 22LR, 9MM, 45ACP, 223, 5.45, 6.8, 308, etc.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/10/30/steyr-mannlicher-stm556-ar-15-rifle/
Might actually be decent. Better than the SIG I hope.
As the article suggests, it seems like a unique design and it does seem to compete. I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.
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What? :confused:
Jason, it's spam/trolling. TFB actually might get more classy soon, too.. which is the irony.
On topic:
Will this be a contender against the 416 or are quick change barrels not important?
sinlessorrow
10-31-12, 11:23
Jason, it's spam/trolling. TFB actually might get more classy soon, too.. which is the irony.
On topic:
Will this be a contender against the 416 or are quick change barrels not important?
I would say not inportant. I have never seen it requested for any serious competition yet.
Some comments of one of the developers:
There is no POI shift if you dismount and mount the same barrel. There might be some shift with other barrels (same length). And there are shifts for sure if you change the barrel length.
Why a (real and quick) barrel changing system? Or better: possible benefits:
- Its easy to clean (no fumbling around in a barrel extension, etc.). I like this feature on my AUG
- You can easily clear some types of malfunction (e. g. stuck case, broken case, ... you name it)
- You can go from CQB length to DMR length quickly with the core of the rifle staying the same (I know.. there might be no reason to do that in 5 seconds, but as a side effect you simply can).
- Quick and easy caliber changes are possible by just changing the barrel and the bolt head. Thatīs done within 60 seconds. The STM556 will be offered in 5,56, 7,62x39 and .300 Whisper for now. More to come. Barrel legths will be: 11,5", 13", 14,5", 16", 18", 20", and 22".
- Because of that quick change system they are thinking of lMG versions in 5,56 and 7,63x39. Could be interesting.
Probably there are more advantages. And if you see no benefit you can just treat it as every other rifle.
The barrels are cold hammer forged, chrome lined and MANNOX coated. Also every other steel part is MANNOX coated.
The gas settings are:
- normal use
- heavy use (weaker loads, dirt, temperature, etc.)
- silencer
- off (for barrel grenades and if you need a silent shot with a can without any motion of the bcg (think of .300 Whisper)
The gas piston, which is a 35 years proved system, kicks a rod that is located in the handguard and can easily be removed, when the barrel is off. There is almost no dirt or carbon build up on this rod after heavy and sustained fire.
The handguard/upper receiver is monolithic and made of forged 7075 aluminum. 3 reasons for the monolithic design:
- optics
- barrel change system
- use of grenade launcher (have you ever seen high speed footage of an AUG mounted GL shooting a 40mm?)
The ventilation holes on the side of the handguard will all be able to receive quick detach sling swivel attachments. Additionally you can mount different Picatinny rails that come with a cable slot (like the side AUG A3 rail).
The safety catch will be able to be also engaged when the hammer is not cocked (some mil regulations want a rifle to be on safe before loaded).
The most interesting thing is still in the experimental phase: They want to establish a permanent dry lubrication system in that rifle. This will also be possible due to the piston system, because heat is generated at the front end and not in the bolt carrier group.
Additional remarks:
This rifle is still a prototype! I just wonder how many experts are on the internet (especially on german forums) who are discussing wildely just because they see a picture of a prototype.
Will this rifle be a toy for the overindividualized civilian who wants to change the handguard every other day? Probably not. But therefor it is also not designed to.
Will you be able to shoot it "Costa-Style" (sorry). No. But a longer handguard is planned/possible as much as I know.
Yes. After 5 Magazins of rapid fire the front end gets hot. But handling is still possible. And if you use a VFG you have absolutely no problems. And after that ammount of ammo you can still touch the bcg. And there was no cook off. BTW: I own a DI SBR with a Troy TRX Battle rail and I too donīt want to touch it at the front end without gloves after 5 mags of sustained fire.
Regarding the serial numbers: In Austria (were the rifle is manufactured) only the barrel and the bolt head are considered as weapon parts. The lower (and the rest) you can buy like bread at a bakery.
sinlessorrow
11-01-12, 00:15
Some comments of one of the developers:
The part about being able to touch the BCG makes me laugh....you can do that on a DI BCG after 5 mags as well :jester:
The heat difference is one thing always blown way out of proportion. The only part you do not want to touch is the gas key...now that will be hot.
also this part: The most interesting thing is still in the experimental phase: They want to establish a permanent dry lubrication system in that rifle. This will also be possible due to the piston system, because heat is generated at the front end and not in the bolt carrier group.
will never be possible, guns need lube thats all their is to it and the minute heat difference between DI and piston will not make a difference one way or the other regarding lubrication in a AR-15 platform rifle. When sand and other contaminates get brought into the mixture Lube is a necessity for any rifle based on the AR platform.
Thats quite contrary to what Larry Vickers has said about the DI system. He thinks heat is a huge problem that affects bolt life, etc.
sinlessorrow
11-01-12, 00:55
Thats quite contrary to what Larry Vickers has said about the DI system. He thinks heat is a huge problem that affects bolt life, etc.
Well there is testing on this very site that shows the difference is generally 40*F at most on the bolt. Certainly not enough to be any issue.
I have also personally put 800 rounds o wolf through my AR-15 in 1hr and had to pull the bolt to remove a broken case thanks to wolfs great quality.....it was just warm to the touch.
you make your own judgement. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57400&highlight=sr556c)
I just want one for my personal reference collection, not as my go-to rifle. It is an interesting design and made by one of the premier European small arms manufacturers.
What other SBR gas pistons are out there?! DD doesn't sell any, KA doesn't sell any, LWRC nope, BCM nope... I need some assistance here guys...
Littlelebowski
11-27-12, 09:57
What other SBR gas pistons are out there?! DD doesn't sell any, KA doesn't sell any, LWRC nope, BCM nope... I need some assistance here guys...
LWRC most certainly does sell gas piston SBRs. Google is your friend.
S. Galbraith
11-27-12, 09:58
I bet they are going to regret that gas-block placement of the MBUS.
Yeah, that thing is going to get hot.
What other SBR gas pistons are out there?!
LWRC nope
Uh, you sure about that?
sinlessorrow
11-27-12, 10:59
Uh, you sure about that?
I think it was sarcasm, like everyone and their mama is making a AR-15 piston and DI variant now days.
I think they missed the piston craze by about a year.....
I think it was sarcasm, like everyone and their mama is making a AR-15 piston and DI variant now days.
If it was, why would he list the others he listed?
Doc. Holiday
11-27-12, 13:27
What other SBR gas pistons are out there?! DD doesn't sell any, KA doesn't sell any, LWRC nope, BCM nope... I need some assistance here guys...
Wow...do some "do-diligence" and you should find your answer.:p
Back on topic, is the chamber separate from the barrel assembly?
patrick sweeney
11-27-12, 15:57
I would guess not. At first glance, the barrel from that puppy appears to be the same (or at least, the same design) as the one in the AUG.
If that's what they've done, then the interest should be on the barrel and the mods, not if it has a piston, dissipates heat, or other whatever else.
Maybe they are positioning themselves for some kind of quick-change-barrel LMG future.
sinlessorrow
11-27-12, 16:14
I would guess not. At first glance, the barrel from that puppy appears to be the same (or at least, the same design) as the one in the AUG.
If that's what they've done, then the interest should be on the barrel and the mods, not if it has a piston, dissipates heat, or other whatever else.
Maybe they are positioning themselves for some kind of quick-change-barrel LMG future.
Quick change barrels are pretty pointless. If you are using your AR-15 as a LMG your doing something wrong. Not to mention all quick change barrekls have some form of POI shift which is not wanted on a carbine.
For repair it may be a bit faster but changing the barrel on AR-15 is pretty easy as is.
Magic_Salad0892
11-27-12, 16:26
Quick change barrels are pretty pointless. If you are using your AR-15 as a LMG your doing something wrong. Not to mention all quick change barrekls have some form of POI shift which is not wanted on a carbine.
For repair it may be a bit faster but changing the barrel on AR-15 is pretty easy as is.
I wouldn't say that they're pointless. It is nice to be able to flip your barrel without taking off your rail. (Which even more of a hassle for KAC users because most of us don't have the URX tool.)
Wow...do some "do-diligence" and you should find your answer.:p
I have been but I've must have misread LWRCs site. I've already checked out the major manufacturers that I am familiar with. If LWRC does sell gas piston SBRs can you please point me in the right direction, instead of typing in a pointless non-helpful comment like a child on Youtube... Thank you.
sinlessorrow
11-27-12, 22:24
I have been but I've must have misread LWRCs site. I've already checked out the major manufacturers that I am familiar with. If LWRC does sell gas piston SBRs can you please point me in the right direction, instead of typing in a pointless non-helpful comment like a child on Youtube... Thank you.
http://www.lwrci.com/p-101-m6a2-556-uppers.aspx
http://www.lwrci.com/p-101-m6a2-556-uppers.aspx
Much obliged. I've never even thought about looking for the upper itself only the rifle as a whole.
So, quick change barrels that require only a few bolts to swap, plus a gas piston.
Sounds a lot like the SCAR-L.
H
I think they missed the piston craze by about a year.....
No kidding. I can't believe anyone would still throw good money into this bad idea.
This gun will look great in CDNN's catalogue of guns that no one wants though. :p
will never be possible, guns need lube thats all their is to it and the minute heat difference between DI and piston will not make a difference one way or the other regarding lubrication in a AR-15 platform rifle. When sand and other contaminates get brought into the mixture Lube is a necessity for any rifle based on the AR platform.
Are you sure about that? I run the 7.62 H&K and what I do is replace the lube on the BCG after 300-500 rounds. I use literally 4-5 drops of oil (it is enough) which I wipe off from the BCG after few range trips and put new oil on it. I wouldn't need to, but I can't see any harm in doing so. I do it mainly to clear the brass shavings off the bolt head.
Are you sure you could lube an AR-10 in a similar fashion?
sinlessorrow
11-28-12, 10:09
Are you sure about that? I run the 7.62 H&K and what I do is replace the lube on the BCG after 300-500 rounds. I use literally 4-5 drops of oil (it is enough) which I wipe off from the BCG after few range trips and put new oil on it. I wouldn't need to, but I can't see any harm in doing so. I do it mainly to clear the brass shavings off the bolt head.
Are you sure you could lube an AR-10 in a similar fashion?
Not sure about the AR-10 as I stick to 5.56 guns. I do know a few drops will easily get you by for thousands of rounds in a perfect environment with the AR-15, but if you are goin to be in a very sandy area extra lube is needed and it would be wise to wipe out the sand daily.
In a perfect environment you can run an AR-15 bone dry for a while with no issues. I believe Mike Pannone got to around 2,400 on a bone dry system when testing things out.
When you start adding things like sand, grass, mud, snow, ect that is when issues happen and why you should clean out that stuff daily.
Can't we just make a sticky thread, "The huge piston AR bashing thread" for example, where the people who feel the need to bash piston AR designs can blow off some steam every now and then? Instead of having every thread regarding a new product accumulating a shitload of posts, saying the following ad nauseum:
-Piston AR's are stupid/suck/<insert adjective here> bla bla bla
-All guns need lube, even pistons...bla bla bla
-Temperature differences between DI and piston is minute....bla bla bla
Everbody knows that the oprod design incorporated to the AR platform is viewed as unnecessary, with little to no benefit and a lack of industry standard, here on M4C. But honestly, having this happen in every god damn thread is getting quite old and reminiscent of other less professional boards.
Based on all of the threads on this board about DI AR's experiencing problems, one could draw some pretty damning conclusions about that system as well. But, as we all know, most problems stem from user error/incompetence, lower quality parts, worn or damaged parts, bad ammunition etc. Not the operating system.
It's getting ridiculous.
Littlelebowski
11-28-12, 10:38
Can't we just make a sticky thread, "The huge piston AR bashing thread" for example, where the people who feel the need to bash piston AR designs can blow off some steam every now and then? Instead of having every thread regarding a new product accumulating a shitload of posts, saying the following ad nauseum:
-Piston AR's are stupid/suck/<insert adjective here> bla bla bla
-All guns need lube, even pistons...bla bla bla
-Temperature differences between DI and piston is minute....bla bla bla
Everbody knows that the oprod design incorporated to the AR platform is viewed as unnecessary, with little to no benefit and a lack of industry standard, here on M4C. But honestly, having this happen in every god damn thread is getting quite old and reminiscent of other less professional boards.
Based on all of the threads on this board about DI AR's experiencing problems, one could draw some pretty damning conclusions about that system as well. But, as we all know, most problems stem from user error/incompetence, lower quality parts, worn or damaged parts, bad ammunition etc. Not the operating system.
It's getting ridiculous.
The day quality, well supported piston guns cost the same or within a small amount of DI ARs is when the (rational) bitching will stop.
Not to mention all quick change barrekls have some form of POI shift which is not wanted on a carbine.
For a unit utilizing an armory concept, swapping barrels based on METT-TC analysis and re-zero before mission launch could be more cost effective than having two separate uppers (short/long barrel). re-zeroing is not going to be a time consuming process, and POI change is not going to be extreme.
It is most likely not meant as an in-mission barrel swap feature, or utilizing the carbine as a sustained fire support platform.
The day quality, well supported piston guns cost the same or within a small amount of DI ARs is when the (rational) bitching will stop.
Don't you think the mindset ruins potentially good discussions, though? Here we have people bashing the Steyr AR piston design, with the participants in the discussion probably never having been even remotely close to one.
Littlelebowski
11-28-12, 10:53
Don't you think the mindset ruins potentially good discussions, though? Here we have people bashing the Steyr AR piston design, with the participants in the discussion probably never having been even remotely close to one.
Yeah, that's a fair point. However, the price is a killer for piston guns. That being said, maybe Steyr will make a piston gun that doesn't cost as much as an Aimpoint+quality DI gun.
Even if somehow Steyr nailed the piston idea... I think it'd be an uphill battle to get it wide acceptance after all the other designs which have gone nowhere exciting. :confused:
Are they given a chance to go somewhere exciting?
A natural human instinct is to seek advice from people more knowledgeable than themselves (well, most people do). If the default reply to piston AR advice is "it sucks!", well....kinda limits the exposure and fielding the system will get.
There are many knowledgeable people on this board, and I have learnt loads myself from reading and participating in discussions. I'm sure many lurkers heed the advice of the more vocal people on this board, even if that group does not have personal experience with the system they are critiquing.
I am all for giving a weapon system a bad review based on personal experience. And you guys really have a luxury problem, when it comes to AR's. Here in Norway, there are two brands legal for purchase (without a serious amount of paperwork and wait time); Bushmaster and DPMS.....and the HK MR223 and 308. So for me, based on what I have read about DPMS and BH here and on LF, they are not tempting options, although I am confident in my ability to keep them running reliably. That leaves the MR223, a system I am familiar with and like very much. The only issue is that it costs an arm and a leg (4000$ for the rifle only :suicide:).
My point....I like guns, of all kinds.....in my view it is better to embrace and empower people who are trying new ideas (unless they are totally retarded like double-barreled AR's), rather than just shutting them down.
Who knows, maybe one day the pinnacle of the AR platform will be reached, and people will "conclude" that the optimal setup for the system is the DI/internal piston/whatever system, and that money would be better spent trying to develop new systems not based on the AR-15 platform.
sinlessorrow
11-28-12, 11:34
Can't we just make a sticky thread, "The huge piston AR bashing thread" for example, where the people who feel the need to bash piston AR designs can blow off some steam every now and then? Instead of having every thread regarding a new product accumulating a shitload of posts, saying the following ad nauseum:
-Piston AR's are stupid/suck/<insert adjective here> bla bla bla
-All guns need lube, even pistons...bla bla bla
-Temperature differences between DI and piston is minute....bla bla bla
Everbody knows that the oprod design incorporated to the AR platform is viewed as unnecessary, with little to no benefit and a lack of industry standard, here on M4C. But honestly, having this happen in every god damn thread is getting quite old and reminiscent of other less professional boards.
Based on all of the threads on this board about DI AR's experiencing problems, one could draw some pretty damning conclusions about that system as well. But, as we all know, most problems stem from user error/incompetence, lower quality parts, worn or damaged parts, bad ammunition etc. Not the operating system.
It's getting ridiculous.
The lube part is relevent to this thread because Steyr themselves are saying the system does not need lube and runs cool enough you cantouch the bolt.
Both are innacuracies and pertain to this rifle.
Littlelebowski
11-28-12, 11:45
Are they given a chance to go somewhere exciting?
A natural human instinct is to seek advice from people more knowledgeable than themselves (well, most people do). If the default reply to piston AR advice is "it sucks!", well....kinda limits the exposure and fielding the system will get.
There are many knowledgeable people on this board, and I have learnt loads myself from reading and participating in discussions. I'm sure many lurkers heed the advice of the more vocal people on this board, even if that group does not have personal experience with the system they are critiquing.
I am all for giving a weapon system a bad review based on personal experience. And you guys really have a luxury problem, when it comes to AR's. Here in Norway, there are two brands legal for purchase (without a serious amount of paperwork and wait time); Bushmaster and DPMS.....and the HK MR223 and 308. So for me, based on what I have read about DPMS and BH here and on LF, they are not tempting options, although I am confident in my ability to keep them running reliably. That leaves the MR223, a system I am familiar with and like very much. The only issue is that it costs an arm and a leg (4000$ for the rifle only :suicide:).
My point....I like guns, of all kinds.....in my view it is better to embrace and empower people who are trying new ideas (unless they are totally retarded like double-barreled AR's), rather than just shutting them down.
Who knows, maybe one day the pinnacle of the AR platform will be reached, and people will "conclude" that the optimal setup for the system is the DI/internal piston/whatever system, and that money would be better spent trying to develop new systems not based on the AR-15 platform.
Honestly, I'd much rather see DI ARs come with a certificate that counts towards a first training class. I would rather see people training rather than trying new toys. Training teaches responsibility with firearms and proficiency. It helps our gun rights movement.
Yeah, new shit is cool. But highly unnecessary in the US for the most part. If good piston guns cost less than DI guns; say if the prices were reversed, I'd be advocating piston guns.
The lube part is relevent to this thread because Steyr themselves are saying the system does not need lube and runs cool enough you cantouch the bolt.
Both are innacuracies and pertain to this rifle.
Steyr says? Where?
The post you are referring to is not made by Steyr, but misrepresented as such. The post is copied from user Hagen77 on LF, who is an AD Austrian soldier, not an emplyee of Steyr.
They are also looking into it as an option, not saying it is feasible. My point still stands, you have a tendency to go overboard on the whole "piston guns need lube too" argument, on other boards.
You also opted to ignore the data I provided you, but chose to rely on a test done by a random guy using a cheap Wal-mart thermometer, regarding the heat issue.
This thread on LF is one of the more objective I have read in regards to temp differences (it also compares the AR to a SCAR, not a piston AR althoug one is used as a comparison sample), and opinion is that you are downplaying the difference in temperature. Argue the effects, in terms of lubricant burning off and parts wear, all day, but the temps ARE higher in a DI gun:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/602106897?r=207104997#207104997
Now, I'll get off my soapbox and hopefully the thread can be about the Steyr piston AR, and not piston vs. DI again.
sinlessorrow
11-28-12, 12:04
Steyr says? Where?
The post you are referring to is not made by Steyr, but misrepresented as such. The post is copied from user Hagen77 on LF, who is an AD Austrian soldier, not an emplyee of Steyr.
They are also looking into it as an option, not saying it is feasible. My point still stands, you have a tendency to go overboard on the whole "piston guns need lube too" argument, on other boards.
You also opted to ignore the data I provided you, but chose to rely on a test done by a random guy using a cheap Wal-mart thermometer, regarding the heat issue.
This thread on LF is one of the more objective I have read in regards to temp differences (it also compares the AR to a SCAR, not a piston AR althoug one is used as a comparison sample), and opinion is that you are downplaying the difference in temperature. Argue the effects, in terms of lubricant burning off and parts wear, all day, but the temps ARE higher in a DI gun:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/602106897?r=207104997#207104997
Now, I'll get off my soapbox and hopefully the thread can be about the Steyr piston AR, and not piston vs. DI again.
I never said the temps were different. I use SLIP2000EWL with a flash point of 550*F, needless to say it doesnt burn off.
What I have said and will continue to say, it is also what I have said to you in PM when you questioned me is that while the temp are slightly higher in a DI system they are not so high as to be detrimental, nor do they change the composition of the steel. Also the bolt face is still cool enough to hold(something piston companies love to talk about).
If C158 cannot withstand 180*F idk what to think.
And I though the person saying it did not need lube worked for Steyr so thats my bad.
RogerinTPA
11-28-12, 12:07
It looks like a very promising design and concept. I for one, am glad to see more innovative designs coming out for the AR platform. If it proves to be as reliable as 'high end' DI and Piston ARs currently available, I'd sell all my ARs and be all over it.
Honestly, I'd much rather see DI ARs come with a certificate that counts towards a first training class. I would rather see people training rather than trying new toys. Training teaches responsibility with firearms and proficiency. It helps our gun rights movement.
Yeah, new shit is cool. But highly unnecessary in the US for the most part. If good piston guns cost less than DI guns; say if the prices were reversed, I'd be advocating piston guns.
Sure, I understand that view. And I am not on a crusade to convert people from DI to pistons....just tired of every thread on a new system using pistons, or advice about piston being turned into a bash fest.
For a unit utilizing an armory concept, swapping barrels based on METT-TC analysis and re-zero before mission launch
Hello Artic1,
I remember the METT-T acronym from my military days as mission, equipment, time, terrain and troops available. I don't remember the C, maybe out was added after my ETS, I'll guess climate...
From my mobile phone
Doc. Holiday
11-28-12, 12:58
I have been but I've must have misread LWRCs site. I've already checked out the major manufacturers that I am familiar with. If LWRC does sell gas piston SBRs can you please point me in the right direction, instead of typing in a pointless non-helpful comment like a child on Youtube... Thank you.
Civil I didn't mean to offend you. You need to understand that we get a lot of folks on here that refuse to do their "homework" and ask questions that could be easily answered by Google.
Back on topic. From what the details are, I'm very interested. I hope to get the chance to get my hands on one, one day and check it out!
I would like to see how different the carrier and bolt are going to be from a standard AR.
Is it going to use an AUG bolt and a very different carrier, or is it just going to use a slightly changed carrier and a standard AR bolt.
If they take a total departure from the AR bolt and carrier it could e interesting.
The AUG is one of the most reliable platforms out there, maybe they can do good things with an AR.
I have a feeling thought that they are using AUG barrels which will (gasp)1 in 9 twist.
For a unit utilizing an armory concept, swapping barrels based on METT-TC analysis and re-zero before mission launch could be more cost effective than having two separate uppers (short/long barrel).
In this day of repeatable quick release mounts it would be viable to have a seperate optic for each barrel: there would be no need for rezeroing. It is still much less bulk and weight to carry around that a full upper (incl. the other optic on it aswell!)
Much better to have quickly changeable barrels, IMHO.
Doc. Holiday
11-28-12, 14:22
Absolutely agree. I wonder with this concept if they will have 300Blk options along with other calibers that only ask a simple barrel BCG swap.
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