Costa - Operation Z [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

Ed L.

10-31-12, 14:40

Here is something that I posted on Chris Costa's facebook page in regards to this, and got a response from Chris Costa.

I need to note that while I detest all this zombie crap, what I wrote was written as over the top humor like one would encounter at a celebrity roast--including a lot of things that would be censored out and make the late comedian Redd Fox blush.

Here is what I wrote:

"First, I am a big fan of Chris Costa. I attended his carbine class, thought he was a fantastic teacher and a truely dynamic individual, and wrote an article about him that appeared in SWAT magazine. I would even buy his $100 action figure if it wasnt that I thought it was more important to donate that money to the NRA Political Victory Fund.

However, I hate zombies, and any mention of them, especially when brought into a serious or even a semi-serious converstaion. It sickens me to see him alligning himself witha Zombie project.

I feel that any commentary about fictitious monsters hurts credibility. It stinks of live action role playing.

I realize that Chris has met with a huge amount of success and gets all types of offers. Were I him and someone offered me a part in a film, documentary, even a semiserious one, involving zombies, I would treat them with the same outrage as if they offered me money to $@#& their %!^&.

I'm deeply disappointed in him. Someone needs to stage an intervention.

I realize that some big name trainers Like Kyle Defoor, have appeared in some zombie oriented features, but that doesn't make it right, credible or even sensible.

It is one thing to talk about defensive firearms, but as soon as people discuss using them against fictitional dead or undead creatures we have credibitlity problems.

Aren't there enough live humanoid predators and threats to worry about?

Maybe talking about shooting zombies makes it politically palitable and safe for everyday conversation rather than saying, 'gee, I might have to shoot a crackhead who attacks me in the parking lot, or use my AR to blast a bunch of thugs who try to force their way into my home.' But rather than mentioneing fictitious creatures that exist in bad TV series as an explanation as to why you own firearms, simply explain that you enjoy owning and shooting them and a quick perusal of any newspapers provides description of many dangerous criminals who require multiple shots to end their nefarious actions.

And now we have firearms companies, optics manufacturers, and ammo companies jumping on the moronic zombie bandwagon--many of who should first worry about producing a product that works reliably before they add silly fictitious creatures to the mix.

Yes it sells. So why not market Brokeback Mountain Leverguns, like they used in that movie: "Winchester: I Wish I knew How To Quit You." Even have KY introduce a weapons lube for the crossover market.

What the **** is wrong with people?

C'mon, if someone posted that 45-70s were good against goblins, orcs, and Harry Potter they would have their masculinity and sanity questioned.

But somehow zombies are okay?

Someone needs to take a stand against this stupidity.

I feel like the Peter Finch Character in the movie Network, who encouraged people to scream "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" (or more likely some moron ranting on Youtube; but I prefer to try to maintain the illusion of an Oscar winning performance)."

Ed L.

10-31-12, 14:42

And here is Chris' response:

"When first approached for this project, I thought the same as you did. I basically said GTFOH. Zombies? Why not Gang bangers, thugs, or psychopaths? And the truth is.... It's too real. Asking someone with absolutely no gun experience to shoot a real person scares the living shit out of them. But shooting something that is a complete fantasy makes it that much easier to teach someone how to use a weapon and eventually kill the threat.

I was asked to look at zombies not as zombies but more as a metaphor. Zombies being the collapse of a society and in order to survive, you need to learn the necessities of survival. The group that was trained had never been around this type of training and most likely would never know that there are Carbine 1 or Handgun 2 type of classes to take or would even attend. This gave them the introduction to devices that can potentially save their lives. These are your everyday teachers, mailmen, gardeners, etc. and when something happens, what are they going to do?

If we laid out 2 tools, a ninja sword and a Stanley FatMax, which would you take to help you potentially kill people and keep your survivability rate up? The average untrained person would take the sword because it could slice, dice, and fillet an enemy. The smarter choice would be the FatMax because you can hit them with blunt force and use it as a tool to breach into a building so that you can provide cover for yourself. That's the mission of Operation Z. To draw an outside crowd the would be unaware of how to do things if something catastrophic happened and give them a helping hand and introduce easier methods. I get it, the whole zombie thing is either a love it or really hate it deal but its much simpler to think about killing zombies than a real person. For you and me, it's a no brainer. For somebody else, there's sometimes a slight hesitation. I hope that kind of clarifies the goal of this project."

Ed L.

10-31-12, 14:49

And here was my respose to him, a lot of which was intended to be over the top humor:

"Chris, thanks for taking the time to write that thoughtful and well-reasoned reply. From what I understand you will have a 12 DVD series on surviving a Zombie Apocalypse and how those skills and mindsets translate into general firearms and defensive use, and surviving all varieties of natural and man made disasters and emergencies. It looks like the first DVD will be on the use of a handgun. I would be interested to know the themes and contents of the rest of the set.

I've found your Magpul Dynamics instructional videos to be first rate and really enjoyed my time training with you and working on the SWAT article about your class. I might even consider purchasing your new series, had I not just dropped a bunch of money on the complete Dark Shadows DVD collection as a birthday gift for myself.

I've long understood the reference to Zombies as being a euphemism for crime and breakdown preparation. However I felt this was pussyfooting instead of simply referring to them as violent criminal attackers who are often armed.

Besides, an appeal of Zombies is that they can be relatively easily dealt with by even a slight teenager armed with a head smashing bludgeon weapon. But if we are going to use metaphors to illustrate dangerous threats and possible times of criminal and social upheaval I believe Werewolves or Lycans from the Underworld movie series represents a more formidable threat that requires far more effective skill, armament and preparation. I mean these heavily armed creatures are like NFL lineman on a steroid binge after a bathsalt overdose. Thus, when I practice I am armed with at least a pair of HK45 longslide match autos while dressed in a black leather catsuit like Kate Beckensale wore in the Underworld films.

If we are looking for cinematic examples of dealing with criminals, we had Charles Bronson in Death Wish long before Zombies became a popular worry. I'm talking about the early Deathwish, not the later movies that went of the deep end where Bronson took on the Mafia and multicultural streetgangs dressed in leftover costumes from the Broadway musicals Godspell and Hair.

We don't have to look toward science fiction or rely on fantasy zombies to see effective examples of fighting dangerous criminals while employing an aggressive attitude. Just watch Joe Pesci overwhelm a larger threat using nothing more than a pen in the movie Casino:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEbpXnJGEq4

Imagine a criminal expecting a passive victim that found himself on the receiving end of that counterattack.

Another good example of ignoring fear and standing up to overwhelming aggressors in dire consequences in recent films takes place in the movie Kill The Irishman, based on the real life saga of dockworker Dannie Greene who challenged Cleveland's organized crime in the 1970s, destroying many lethal rivals including Christopher Walken, while gaining valuable law enforcement experience since he served as an FBI confidential Informant while doing in his criminal rivals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BA_Ze0tyYhQ

In short, I understand the Zombie metaphor but feel there are more realistic ways, and better people to model. In short, would you rather be some nobody actor from a bad zombie movie or show, or academy award winning tough guy Joe Pesci or real life badass Danny Greene, who used his fists, firearms and explosives to eliminate some real life threats?"

Brimstone

10-31-12, 16:11

And here is Chris' response:

Zombies? Why not Gang bangers, thugs, or psychopaths? And the truth is.... It's too real. Asking someone with absolutely no gun experience to shoot a real person scares the living shit out of them. But shooting something that is a complete fantasy makes it that much easier to teach someone how to use a weapon and eventually kill the threat.

This is just more of the pussification of America. I took my ten year old to a large shooting range for some pistol and rifle training this Summer. They offered quite a selection of targets including many zombie targets. My son picked out a target of a real thug pointing a large revolver. I asked him if he was sure he didn't want something more fun and his response was "Dad this is serious. I am never going to have to shoot a zombie in real life." I was proud of my son for teaching me a lesson and for knowing why we were really there.

hambeast

10-31-12, 16:29

Are zombies really that worse than hello kitty ar's? I'm not sure.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

tb-av

10-31-12, 16:59

And here was my respose to him, a lot of which was intended to be over the top humor:

While I agree with a lot of what you wrote.... the humor didn't really come across to me. One little section maybe.

On the other hand... sometimes professionals can take themselves too seriously. I once had a sound engineer tell me about a church where he ran sound, that he was fine having loud rock music in church if it got young people in the door. He said it was the preacher's job after that.

I can see where Chris is coming from. If that's what he as a professional believes it takes today to get a segment of the population into an environment where they can be taught safely and transitioned to a more real world situation and mindset, then I say go for it.

As long as he is not compromising safety or technique, which I'm sure he is not, then there really is no harm and in fact it's probably a good thing.

Would you rather shoot beside someone trained by Chris with the "Z theme" or someone trained on the Zombie Airsoft Squad?

I think at the end of the day this one falls under the final requirement of every class I have ever seen offered here or most anywhere else.

"Bring a good attitude"

As the years churn on though, I'm sure Zombies will become a protected class and Chris will be sued by the ACLU. :)

Ed L.

10-31-12, 17:18

While I agree with a lot of what you wrote.... the humor didn't really come across to me. One little section maybe.

I understand. You are not the only one who didn't get the humor in what I wrote which was designed as an over the top, hyperbolic rant. It goes back to the type of thing one would hear at a Dean Martin Celebrity roast or a Friar's Club roast.

It seems that this DVD series was designed for newer comers to guns as he trained people who had little firearms exposure. This is a good thing in that it provides good info and attracts more people, hopefully building a larger gunowner constituency.

Would you rather shoot beside someone trained by Chris with the "Z theme" or someone trained on the Zombie Airsoft Squad?

I wouldn't even compare the two. I have nothing but praise for Chris Costa as a trainer. I just can't stand the zombie theme of the promo and the tapes.

Here are some clips from the series which shows him teaching pistols and carbines:

Here he is teaching pistols:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTaHtaRq8xQ&feature=share

And here is a clip from the series where Costa is teaching carbines:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8mscDI-fKk

Ed L.

10-31-12, 17:26

This is just more of the pussification of America. I took my ten year old to a large shooting range for some pistol and rifle training this Summer. They offered quite a selection of targets including many zombie targets. My son picked out a target of a real thug pointing a large revolver. I asked him if he was sure he didn't want something more fun and his response was "Dad this is serious. I am never going to have to shoot a zombie in real life." I was proud of my son for teaching me a lesson and for knowing why we were really there.

That's a young man to be proud of.

BMWguy206

11-01-12, 00:50

Hey guys! Just to give my two cents but I did purchase the volume 1 DVD and it really is made for a complete newbie that has never shot a gun in their life or never had any formal training whatsoever.

The students in the DVD are the ones you normally see at a shooting range who have no idea how what the fundamentals of shooting are. What's funny is that the students reminded me of myself when I first started shooting.

ClearedHot

11-01-12, 01:38

Interesting timing...I just saw this on Yahoo News.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-prank-halloween-us-military-forces-train-zombie-162141684.html

Brimstone

11-01-12, 09:55

Interesting timing...I just saw this on Yahoo News.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-prank-halloween-us-military-forces-train-zombie-162141684.html

http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg

59_Gretsch

11-01-12, 11:54

The idea of "zombies" desensitizing people to the moral implications of taking a life is flawed i think. I get the idea in principle, but I think it misses one of the best aspects of the training classes I've attended and that is the fighting mindset. Chris and Travis emphasized this in the carbine 1&2 class that I took with MagPul. I don't think you can separate the skills and tactics from mindset without turning the exercise into a game. Just my two cents.

sadmin

11-01-12, 13:08

Interesting timing...I just saw this on Yahoo News.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-prank-halloween-us-military-forces-train-zombie-162141684.html

Best comment from link - "Because calling it "training to stop a rioting, starving, panicking, desperate mob after a complete governmental financial collapse apocalypse" is just too wordy."

Grizzly16

11-01-12, 16:03

Lemme see..

Is Costa a great trainer? Yes, I'd say so.
Is he finding a way to train people to over come the "pussification factor"? Yes, I'd say so.
Is the zombie thing kind of cheesy? Yes, I'd say so.

At the end of the day a good guy is doing good work. And many are advocating ignoring the good he has to offer because you are tired of reading about zombies. Doesn't seem like strong logic to me.

Moltke

11-01-12, 16:15

I liked zombies before they were cool. I've enjoyed the books, movies, lore and gore, and even jokingly planned for the apocalypse before zombies went mainstream. All things considered it was a fun activity.

But I don't want to see that shit on real guns and accessories because it makes gun owners look like a bunch of paranoid immature retards who can't tell fantasy from reality. The gun industry needs a makeover and zombies is not it. We need to be looked at as law abiding, armed, trained, responsible citizens. Instead what's happening is we're being viewed as a bunch of dumbasses who shouldn't be allowed to own guns because we say one thing (such as the 2nd Amendment is important and should be taken seriously) and then do something completely different (don't take ourselves seriously by sticking zombie related crap on our rifles).

I own Glock pistols and Colt rifles because they are excellent real world defensive tools, and as a free person, I want to be able to defend myself and my family from harm. I have a strong respect for people who have put themselves in harm's way in order to protect this country, and I have strong admiration for Mr Costa's skill set, teaching ability, and knowledge of his trade - but this is sending the wrong message.

jaydoc1

11-01-12, 22:56

You leave yourself a gun with one bullet in it, you get bit, you can smoke yourself really quickly.

Words to live by, friends. Words to live by.

theblackknight

11-03-12, 18:40

Finally, a thread that is critical of a popular trainer that I cant get accused of trolling for responding to.

The whole zombie thing is ****ing gay. When you confront someone in the industry on it, they spew some kind of bullshit like "well it's bringing new people and money to the industry/ sport" or something equally bullshit.

For someone with his own action figure, I'm thought this kinda thing would have happened sooner. If I was a teacher, I'd rather have my students shoot 130$ more in ammo,no matter what skill level they are at, then play with a doll in my likeness. These guys are firearms trainers, not the **** dali lahma. Yet I see all too often grown men get sucked into the cult of personality and are all to eager to cup the balls, and trainers start to believe their own fanboy legend persona.

Breaking into the whole"well this is a free country where adults can spend their money on zombie lowers if they want too" and like sticking your fingers in your ears. The worst part is there is a large group of "adults" who not only think that zombies are possible, but could happen at any time. I'd almost rather see people get more into ****ing TWIGHLIGHT. Atleast they'd drive nice cars and dress well.

People need to be called out on their bullshit. If you need better understanding FFW to 3:50ish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpNRw7snmGM&feature=player_embedded

Brimstone

11-03-12, 19:04

Finally, a thread that is critical of a popular trainer that I cant get accused of trolling for responding to.

Troll

These guys are firearms trainers, not the **** dali lahma. Yet I see all too often grown men get sucked into the cult of personality and are all to eager to cup the balls, and trainers start to believe their own fanboy legend persona.

I am disappointed to see Costa do this in the form of a training video, but I have fully expected him to do something else in TV or movies. He has a lot of charisma that comes across on the screen and would be great hosting a show like Top Shot or Doomsday Preppers.

People need to be called out on their bullshit. If you need better understanding FFW to 3:50ish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpNRw7snmGM&feature=player_embedded

Penn Jillette has his head on straight. A solid Libertarian.

theblackknight

11-03-12, 20:19

Troll

OH NO, I SUCK AGAIN

I am disappointed to see Costa do this in the form of a training video, but I have fully expected him to do something else in TV or movies. He has a lot of charisma that comes across on the screen and would be great hosting a show like Top Shot or Doomsday Preppers.

He could never host top shot. You need a perma-5oclock shadow for that.And more denim.

There's a ****ing show called Doomsday Preppers? I'm so glad I don't have cable anymore.

Littlelebowski

11-03-12, 21:31

OH NO, I SUCK AGAIN

He could never host top shot. You need a perma-5oclock shadow for that.And more denim.

There's a ****ing show called Doomsday Preppers? I'm so glad I don't have cable anymore.

Is there a limit to your teen angst?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Iraqgunz

11-03-12, 23:45

Everyone step away from the desk and put down the keyboard. Blacknight- your continuous use of the f-word and other unnecessary profanity that seem to end up in all of your posts doesn't really do you any good.

Honu

11-04-12, 00:17

any profession you are in I think you have to laugh a bit and not worry so much at times ?

one of my best friends since we were kids teaches at Huachuca and is of course X military but can say the dude is frigin hilarious and can so easily laugh at himself etc.. and does not take everything so serious ! but if things go serious he knows how to turn off that side !

I dont know Costa ? but he seems like a real guy that has his head on really well ! in both business and such
but
seems the guy is doomed by some if he plays it straight ? then folks complain he thinks he is to high on himself ?

so he plays around a bit and then some think he is now a tool that caved in to the zombie thing ?

more power to the guy !

Moose-Knuckle

11-04-12, 00:32

Now I can add another to my list.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=114407

bubba04

11-04-12, 00:34

Where I am personally not a huge fan of the zombie thing, what I think is cool is the fact that is seems that shooting/defensive shooting & shooting sports are becoming more and more main stream.

agr1279

11-04-12, 06:05

I am glad that this has been cleared up. I too was wondering what Costa was doing getting himself into this current craze but it make sense. You can correlate this to why leo use body silhouettes and that is to get new shooters to overcome the Oh crap mentality when they actually have to shoot at real person.

Dan

agr1279

11-04-12, 06:13

I dont know Costa ? but he seems like a real guy that has his head on really well ! in both business and such
but
seems the guy is doomed by some if he plays it straight ? then folks complain he thinks he is to high on himself ?

so he plays around a bit and then some think he is now a tool that caved in to the zombie thing ?

more power to the guy !

I have never taken one of his classes but have talked to him several times at Gun Gallery in Jacksonville, FL since he is local and they do a lot of work for him. He is a great guy to talk to when he is there and will answer questions. He is not arrogant and will help when asked. He is a professional and wants stuff done properly. He helped me one day with some of my duty gear on while he was at the store.

Dan

NeoNeanderthal

11-04-12, 06:47

Yeah zombies are gay, but christ, the dvd is like 15 bucks.

But what i think is interesting about this DVD is that he is purposely instructing completely NEW shooters. I think this could be helpful to ME because I teach a lot of new shooters. By "new" i mean that they only know what TV/movies has taught them about guns. Blank slate (sorta). Personally i will be looking to pick up some new instructional tips.

I dont get all the hate. Hate the fanboys, not the man. No one can argue that he cant shoot, or doesn't know what he's doing. Everybody needs to take off their pissy pants. And stop talking shit about someone who is a better shooter then most of the people on this forum. It's not like hes a shady individual like Gabe Suarez or something, maybe i'm missing something?

500grains

11-04-12, 06:53

500 that kind of comment is a no go here. Don't let it happen again.

Voodoochild

davidjinks

11-04-12, 09:21

I was just discussing this with my wife. Spot on 100%. I cannot agree more with you.

The idea of "zombies" desensitizing people to the moral implications of taking a life is flawed i think. I get the idea in principle, but I think it misses one of the best aspects of the training classes I've attended and that is the fighting mindset. Chris and Travis emphasized this in the carbine 1&2 class that I took with MagPul. I don't think you can separate the skills and tactics from mindset without turning the exercise into a game. Just my two cents.

jaxman7

11-04-12, 11:38

500grains,

I saw your comment before Voodoochild thankfully edited it.

You sir are a liability to this site with comments like that.

You are a liability to this site b/c of your multiple conspiracy themed posts and threads.

A liability b/c you are an instigator b/t more than few well respected members here.

You are a liability in the area of your posts. This is a TECHNICAL forum NOT your own freaking blog. Take L-lebowski's advice and start your own blog.

Alot of aggravation, politically based turmoil, degradation of the GD, and possible future unwanted attention towards M4C has, is, or will be caused solely by you.

I do not like to put crosshairs on just one person alone but with your last comment on here I've had it and I can guarantee I do not stand alone.

My advice to you. Leave the GD ALONE! Ask technical questions. Nothing else. That or please as you did once before....go away.

-Jax

chadbag

11-04-12, 12:19

I have never taken one of his classes but have talked to him several times at Gun Gallery in Jacksonville, FL since he is local and they do a lot of work for him. He is a great guy to talk to when he is there and will answer questions. Why some say he is arrogant he is not from what I've seen. He is a professional and wants stuff done properly. He helped me one day with some of my duty gear on while he was at the store.

I've never found Chris to be arrogant in the least. Very professional, and a truly nice guy.

---

theblackknight

11-04-12, 12:24

Is there a limit to your teen angst?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I don't think so. I'm not sure I have any incentive to not. What about my actual point should I reconsider?

BTW, if anyone here would like to give me a hard time,direct it here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1432778#post1432778

Blacknight- your continuous use of the f-word and other unnecessary profanity that seem to end up in all of your posts doesn't really do you any good.

I have heard this elsewhere, so you could be on to something. I've been looking for a while now, but what, in a technical sense, qualifies a word as profane? As in, a sedan is a sedan because of it's configuration. Same with guns. I've never had anyone give me a satisfactory answer on this. I'm hoping today is the day.

I dont get all the hate. Hate the fanboys, not the man. No one can argue that he cant shoot, or doesn't know what he's doing. Everybody needs to take off their pissy pants. And stop talking shit about someone who is a better shooter then most of the people on this forum. It's not like hes a shady individual like Gabe Suarez or something, maybe i'm missing something?

When you release a doll of yourself, you have fully enabled the fanboy culture 100%.If you were a firearms instructor, would you rather your student shoot 130$ more in ammo that week/month?Or have a doll, of you, to do what with? The whole zombie craze paints firearms owners as a bunch of crazy, doomsday prepper, MRE snacking lunatics who believe in fictional beings to the point they are willing to shell out cash for whatever zombie packaged product comes out of the pipeline. This is not a good look.But please, keep telling me because Chris can shoot, that his zombie advice like keeping an extra round somewhere on your person in case you start to turn is sound advice in a self defense situation that's stuffed in fun packaging!:jester:

http://t.qkme.me/352hag.jpg

http://www.range37.com/training/zombie-apocalypse-survival-course/

etc etc etc

tb-av

11-04-12, 12:45

I think it would be interesting to know how many of you that think what Chris is doing is wrong are..

1. Self Employed
2. A Teacher

For all practical purposes Chris is self employed in that he is selling his name and abilities that no one else has. Obviously he is a teacher and apparently a good one from all I've ever read.

Being a good teacher is very difficult. Many people can do things well but they can't all teach it well. Balancing self employment with teaching and staying on top of society trends is not easy.

It's no different than the music industry. The same engineers, gear, physics, theory, training, etc,,, go into making a Justin Bieber CD as does a death metal CD. Chris is not compromising his craft. He is simply taking on a new client so to speak.

montanadave

11-04-12, 12:52

500 that kind of comment is a no go here. Don't let it happen again.

Voodoochild

Thanks for deleting this comment.

Now do us all a favor and ban this guy ... again.

Littlelebowski

11-04-12, 13:16

theblackknight

11-04-12, 14:56

Tbk, nearly every time you post, it's a bitch about the industry. Deny it or not, that was my point. Not sure if you're just pissed off at the world like many Marines are (and rightfully so) but your ceaseless ranting does nothing for anyone except let you vent for a moment. Get a girlfriend or get out more. Try fishing.

As far as GD goes, folks don't waste your breath. It's pretty clear its going to stay the way it is and the infraction system will not be utilized. I appreciate M4c for what it was, not the mini TOS it is.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Well yeah, I agree.

My being critical has nothing to do with my service, bc I've had it easy and have little(0) reason to be angry compared to others. I was like this far before I ever enlisted. I have a wife, and we get out,my good friend owns a bar downtown,good times are had:D. I mtb and do pt when I'm not dryfiring or at the range. Still, people usually have a problem with not what I'm saying, but rather thatI'm saying it or the tone. I can't really validate this for reasons I'd rather not say.

At what point in someone's career do they escape scrutiny? I don't think there is such a point. Washington seems to be one place this is true, and they're doing pretty good:fie: What things on someones resume means they can use that influence to tell someone a katana never runs out of ammo, or something equally silly like keeping one extra round, to off yourself incase you get bitten by something which dosent exist?

agr1279

11-04-12, 15:00

I've never found Chris to be arrogant in the least. Very professional, and a truly nice guy.

---

Neither have I and that what I was trying to say.

Dan

RogerinTPA

11-04-12, 17:19

Entertainment and playing to a specific audience aside, I don't think it will help our collective cause as gun owners, once a mainstream media outlet gets hold of it and puts their spin on it. It adds more ammo to use against gun owners by the Anti's. Painting us as irresponsible trigger happy gun loving bubbas, hoping for the end of the world kinda shit. It adds to the fear and feeding frenzy of liberals in general, and as one more reason for them to ban guns... As gun owners in general, regardless of one's celebrity, we need to take every opportunity to be seen in the best possible light, promoting safety, proper training, and using good judgement.

theblackknight

11-04-12, 18:30

500grains

11-04-12, 18:58

500 that kind of comment is a no go here. Don't let it happen again.

Voodoochild

It was a legtimate and true piece of information. People should know the slang meaning for zombie before they run around saying that they are getting ready to shoot zombies or they are practicing for shooting zombies. They might give the wrong impression.

I think you badly misunderstood my comment.

With your permission, I will post the comment again.

500grains

11-04-12, 19:00

T

As far as GD goes, folks don't waste your breath. I

Why display such a bad attitude about it? Just don't read the stuff you are not interested in rather than getting wrapped around the axle about it. There are many things in life you cannot control...

agr1279

11-04-12, 19:01

It was a legtimate and true piece of information. People should know the slang meaning for zombie before they run around saying that they are getting ready to shoot zombies or they are practicing for shooting zombies. They might give the wrong impression.

I think you badly misunderstood my comment.

With your permission, I will post the comment again.

Well you do and apparently many here including me did not. All we have to do is have some ACLU *&?!!!! see that and the owners of M4 could have an issue.

Dan

500grains

11-04-12, 19:06

Yeah, wouldn't it be cute if we had a whole big section about how to shoot zombies and then the ACLU or some other "public interest organization" reveals that zombies is code word for a particular group of people and that the folks on website xyz have nefarious plans.

I thought it was helpful information.

Ed L.

11-04-12, 21:23

I like the idea of having a well done DVD series for people not familiar with firearms that features a class of new shooters being taught by someone like Chris Costa.

But given the stupid zombie theme, I would feel very strange recommending it to someone.

I could not recommend it without almost cringing and giving a huge disclaimer about the zombie nonsense.

I certainly understand the mass market appeal of zombies, but I find it extremely distasteful and nauseating. I think the defensive use of firearms is a very serious topic, and when you start involving fantasy elements like zombies you trivialize it and detract from the seriousness of it.

I'm sure it would be hilarious to see Costa with a walk-on role in the next Jay & Silent Bob movie by Kevin Smith. I would enjoy that.

But I don't want to see Jay & Silent Bob doing walk-in appearances on any serious firearms instructional videos.

a1fabweld

11-05-12, 12:31

This whole zombie shit is so ****ing retarded. People are buying into it & companies are making bank off of it. For Christ's sake Eotech has a Zombie optic. Leupold too. This shit is as annoying as saggy pants & booming radios.

J-Dub

11-05-12, 12:43

Damn. Im tired of all the zombie bullshit.

It almost makes me hate black guns and the new wave of complete hillbilly MORONS that think they're "cool zombie killers".

Please, make this zombie shit go away soon...

GeorgiaBoy

11-05-12, 12:56

J-Dub

11-05-12, 13:08

I see zombie shooting as almost being a new shooting "sport" altogether. It attracts a lot of people to guns who normally wouldn't be involved.

Kinda dangerous for people with an IQ lower than 80 to handle a deadly weapon, just saying.

Not saying all the Zombie nuts are mentally challenged, but seriously its annoying. Its also bad for the image of gun owners.

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 13:09

I think the dogma that persists on this forum that the only use of firearms is for defensive use and if you aren't owning firearms for that purpose that you are some kind of a "inferior" gun owner is getting old.

There are a lot (and I mean a lot) of forums that cater to the "I like to shoot and drink" or "Zombie shooting is cool!" This forum is different (thank GOD) and if you are interested in non-defensive oriented forums, I can send you links to forums that will better fit your needs better.

If people want to own guns to shoot at bleeding reactive zombie targets in their backyards, why the **** should I care? I'm not going to look down on them because they are doing something they enjoy with a right that they have.

It is your money and you can do whatever you like. These people tend to NEVER spend a dime on quality guns, gear or training though. I personally think that is a huge error on their part, but as they say; "You can't fix stupid."

Not every gun owner wants/needs/desires/has to attend a defensive carbine/handgun class and shoot for the sole purpose of making themselves better at defensive shooting.

Really? How did they learn then? By watching TV or Movies?? I know that ignorance is bliss, but that doesn't mean that everyone that owns a gun for self-preservation purposes shouldn't attend a basic class!

If you think about it, you have attend weeks of "drivers ed" and quite honestly driving is much easier than being able to run a pistol well. Yet, there are THOUSANDS of people that carry a pistol every day that would fail the most basic of LE qualification course.

I see zombie shooting as almost being a new shooting "sport" altogether. It attracts a lot of people to guns who normally wouldn't be involved.

It does attract a lot of people. Are these people really a positive for the shooting community? Do anti-gun advocates look at this and say; "Look how foolish these people are. This is why we should ban firearms."

Just sayin....

C4

GeorgiaBoy

11-05-12, 13:34

There are a lot (and I mean a lot) of forums that cater to the "I like to shoot and drink" or "Zombie shooting is cool!" This forum is different (thank GOD) and if you are interested in non-defensive oriented forums, I can send you links to forums that will better fit your needs better.

Oh pah-lease, you know what I meant. Don't insult me by offering me "alternative" sites to go to. I'm on this site because I actually happen to be a "defensive" shooter. (Which is what this site is geared too obviously)

I was saying there is a DOGMA on this site that says that anyone who isn't actively engaged in defensive shooting skills training is useless as a gun owner. "Dirt clod shooter", "Fudd", "Zombie shooter". Just because we happen to be more defensive-orientated shooters doesn't mean people that don't choose to be involved in that are some kind of inferior gun owners.

It is your money and you can do whatever you like. These people tend to NEVER spend a dime on quality guns, gear or training though. I personally think that is a huge error on their part, but as they say; "You can't fix stupid."

Because they don't want or need quality guns, gear, or training for what they do.

Really? How did they learn then? By watching TV or Movies?? I know that ignorance is bliss, but that doesn't mean that everyone that owns a gun for self-preservation purposes shouldn't attend a basic class!

If you think about it, you have attend weeks of "drivers ed" and quite honestly driving is much easier than being able to run a pistol well. Yet, there are THOUSANDS of people that carry a pistol every day that would fail the most basic of LE qualification course.

If they don't care for defensive shooting, they don't the defensive training. That isn't saying that people that concealed carry don't need training - they do. But a guy that owns guns to hunt or to shoot zombies doesn't need to attend the latest Magpul Dynamics or VSM class.

It does attract a lot of people. Are these people really a positive for the shooting community? Do anti-gun advocates look at this and say; "Look how foolish these people are. This is why we should ban firearms."

I thought we weren't supposed to care what the anti's think? To me, Magpul DVD trailers on YouTube probably do a lot more harm than a video of a guy shooting 2 liter bottles and zombie heads.

People running around with AR's wearing plate carriers, mag pouches, and helmets probably scare anti's a lot more. ;)

theblackknight

11-05-12, 13:48

I think the dogma that persists on this forum that the only use of firearms is for defensive use and if you aren't owning firearms for that purpose that you are some kind of a "inferior" gun owner is getting old.

If people want to own guns to shoot at bleeding reactive zombie targets in their backyards, why the **** should I care? I'm not going to look down on them because they are doing something they enjoy with a right that they have.

Not every gun owner wants/needs/desires/has to attend a defensive carbine/handgun class and shoot for the sole purpose of making themselves better at defensive shooting.

I see zombie shooting as almost being a new shooting "sport" altogether. It attracts a lot of people to guns who normally wouldn't be involved. That's not exactly a point in it's favor

You can always tell how defendable a position is when someone resorts to the ol' "it's a free country" line or something close.

The fact is anything usable that stems from the zombie craze can be seen in a responsible light, in it's original form,is a great reason to drop the cheesy, lime green packaging. Preparing for a zombie apocylpse?(dur spelling) Natural disaster preparedness. Zombie Shooting? IPSC/IDPA/IMGA. Medical is still medical.

The problem is it dosent stop there. People have serious forums and purchase books about a fictional form of humanoid who is dead, but can somehow be still killed?

http://www.krem.com/news/WSU-monster-expert-Zombie-craze-mirrors-modern-day-anxieties--176439071.html

As if that’s not enough, there are zombie marches and parades, Seattle’s ZomBcon international convention featuring a zombie prom, and the Humans vs. Zombies tag game that’s played on hundreds of college campuses around the country, including WSU.
"Zombies are a manifestation of our anxieties about survival, infectious diseases, over-population and general mass mindlessness,” said Delahoyde from his upper Avery Hall office where Mary Shelley’s "Frankenstein” and Bram Stoker’s "Dracula” are shelved alongside Shakespeare.
Zombies have been around for a long time and were subjects of folklore before movies and books, said Delahoyde. Mostly, they’re portrayed as slack-jawed, bloodstained sleepwalkers who don’t scheme or dream and don’t think beyond their next mouthful of liver.
"It’s not that zombies have changed in ways that make them more intriguing to us than they were 20 years ago. It’s because the world has changed in ways that make them more relevant,” said Delahoyde.
In the years since the 9/11 attacks, for example, national polls show that Americans feel less safe and secure. With a faded sense of safety and predictability, "more of us can identify with the anxieties conveyed by humans about zombies and the prospect of annihilation,” he said.

"It’s mind consumption and, like zombies, it’s persistent. If we’re not careful, we can feel overwhelmed, overtaken,” he said.

So the zombie craze is a reaction to a "mass mindlessness", which is then FED (LOL) by the zombie craze, being mindless by it's own nature. That's a vicious cycle of juvenile delusion I'd rather not have attached to the firearms community.

Comparing Magpul DVD's to the zombie craze is just plain misrepresentation. There's no question of which has more visibility.

500grains

11-05-12, 13:49

Look up zombie in the Urban Dictionary to see if we should be talking about shooting zombies.

Moltke

11-05-12, 13:52

Look up zombie in the Urban Dictionary to see if we should be talking about shooting zombies.

Watch the trailer to understand what kind of zombies we ARE talking about and stop posting about your misunderstood dumbassery that nobody else on this forum cares about.

500grains

11-05-12, 14:02

Watch the trailer to understand what kind of zombies we ARE talking about and stop posting about your misunderstood dumbassery that nobody else on this forum cares about.

There is no reason to be rude.

GeorgiaBoy

11-05-12, 14:03

You can always tell how defendable a position is when someone resorts to the ol' "it's a free country" line or something close.

I don't quite get what you are trying to get at with this.

The Second Amendment doesn't have a disclaimer saying that one must attend at least 2 defensive handgun courses to own a pistol.

As long as a person isn't using a gun to break a law or harm someone, they should be able to do whatever they wish with it, whether it is shooting a IPSC silhouette, a tennis ball, a zombie head, or a dirt clod.

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 14:04

I was saying there is a DOGMA on this site that says that anyone who isn't actively engaged in defensive shooting skills training is useless as a gun owner. "Dirt clod shooter", "Fudd", "Zombie shooter". Just because we happen to be more defensive-orientated shooters doesn't mean people that don't choose to be involved in that are some kind of inferior gun owners.

I think this is highly debatible.

Because they don't want or need quality guns, gear, or training for what they do.

And this is where they miss the boat. Guns SOLE PURPOSE is as a defensive tool. Second is as a tool to provide food. Waaaaaaaaaaay down on the list is killing fake monsters.

If they don't care for defensive shooting, they don't the defensive training. That isn't saying that people that concealed carry don't need training - they do. But a guy that owns guns to hunt or to shoot zombies doesn't need to attend the latest Magpul Dynamics or VSM class.

Only a moron looks at a firearm and says; "I won't use this to defend myself." Everyone needs it, they just aren't smart enough to realize it.

I thought we weren't supposed to care what the anti's think? To me, Magpul DVD trailers on YouTube probably do a lot more harm than a video of a guy shooting 2 liter bottles and zombie heads.

People running around with AR's wearing plate carriers, mag pouches, and helmets probably scare anti's a lot more. ;)

Care or be aware of what is going on? Two different things. Most non-gun owners get their knowledge on firearms from the media. Showing people shooting zombie targets just adds to the idea that we are complete idiots and shouldn't be allowed to own a fiream.

C4

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 14:10

I don't quite get what you are trying to get at with this.

The Second Amendment doesn't have a disclaimer saying that one must attend at least 2 defensive handgun courses to own a pistol.

As long as a person isn't using a gun to break a law or harm someone, they should be able to do whatever they wish with it, whether it is shooting a IPSC silhouette, a tennis ball, a zombie head, or a dirt clod.

Actually the 2A talks specifically about a "well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State."

At no point can you take away from that statement that firearms are for ANYTHING OTHER than security/defense. Neither hunting or shooting zombie targets follows the motivation behind the 2A.

Should people be able to do whatever they want with a gun (legall)? Yes. Should they do it? No. This is the point I think that people are trying to make.

C4

FromMyColdDeadHand

11-05-12, 14:34

Costa's down there in Florida with all the "bath salts" maniacs. More likely to run into a 'zombie' than some third-world blue-helmet.

Chris is like the Ron Jeremy of firearms. He's a little guy who can run a big gun (Larue OBR). He'd run his gun even if there weren't a camera around. He's the famous person at the airport that you see that just give a nod to because you don't want to explain who he is to your family. He's shorter in real life than you would have thought. You hide his DVDs from your kids.

Most of all Chris is all about you being able to defend yourself and your family to the level of your ability- and he tries to extend his ability. If he thinks this is a way to do that, I'd give him a lot of latitude to experiment.

I don't have his doll, call me a fan-boi if you want. If heaven forbid I am ever in a gunfight, I will have prevailed because of the classes with Chris, Travis and USMC03. In the mean time I'm just glad to have had a Wendy's Frosty with those guys.

theblackknight

11-05-12, 15:23

I don't quite get what you are trying to get at with this.

The Second Amendment doesn't have a disclaimer saying that one must attend at least 2 defensive handgun courses to own a pistol.

As long as a person isn't using a gun to break a law or harm someone, they should be able to do whatever they wish with it, whether it is shooting a IPSC silhouette, a tennis ball, a zombie head, or a dirt clod.

If people want to own guns to shoot at bleeding reactive zombie targets in their backyards, why the **** should I care? I'm not going to look down on them because they are doing something they enjoy with a right that they have. =ITS A FREE COUNTRA, I'LL DO WUT I WANT".

Misrepresenting the issue isnt very becoming. People are not just shooting at zombie targets. They are are doing everything zombie with everything zombie products.

a0cake

11-05-12, 15:35

I'm personally as against mixing Zombies and gun-culture as anybody you know -- but Zombies are giving ammunition to the antis???

Where do you guys get this shit? You can't just make things up, which is becoming the order of the day around here, to support your preconceived notions.

In the mind of most anti-gunners, somebody playing out a fantasy by shooting zombie targets with zombie ammunition through a zombie engraved gun is viewed as far more harmless than a serious shooter training to shoot human targets. A lot of lay people FREAK when they see human targets go up. A zombie target will produce a much less severe reaction. Is that stupid bullshit? Yep, but it's the way they think.

Of course, WE know that the second category of shooter is far more of an asset to the country, and that the former is likely a liability in some cases.

But the antis have it back-asswards. They don't know that the people taking carbine classes, and are most serious about their training, are the safest and least likely to commit a crime.

So, clearly there is work to be done to correct public perception, as well as in the gun-community at large to get people taking training seriously.

But Zombie stuff giving ammunition to the anti-gun crowd? Nope. That's made up. If you think a dude shooting a 12 Gauge at a zombie target bothers anti-gunners more than seeing a dude in a full tactical multicam getup run drills with an AR-15, you're dreaming. Stop with the ridiculous circular firing squad / polish ambush stuff already.

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 15:46

I'm personally as against mixing Zombies and gun-culture as anybody you know -- but Zombies are giving ammunition to the antis???

Where do you guys get this shit? You can't just make things up, which is becoming the order of the day around here, to support your preconceived notions.

I had a non-gun owner ask me about the zombie thing the other day (apparently they saw the bleeding zombie targets). They thought it was childish/immature to buy this crap. I agreed.

The anti-gun establishment latches on to anything that makes gun owners look stupid or dangerous. This zombie crap in no way helps our cause.

But the antis have it back-asswards. They don't know that the people taking carbine classes, and are most serious about their training, are the safest and least likely to commit a crime.

True. This is because we keep it under wraps for the most part. TV shows, YouTube, etc teaching people how to defends themselves against zombies (in a realistic manner) does not come across all that well IMHO.

But Zombie stuff giving ammunition to the anti-gun crowd? Nope. That's made up. Stop with the ridiculous circular firing squad / polish ambush stuff already.

Sorry, but no. I actually work in the firearms industry and see this kind of stuff all the time. I have been called murderer and all kinds of things by people simply because I sell firearms. Walk in other peoples shoes before giving your opinion on things.

C4

a0cake

11-05-12, 15:53

Grant -- forget about what makes sense here for a second, and about the way things "should be." Think about it like an anti.

Do you seriously think that civilians in plate carriers, helmets, and multicam uniforms training with AR-15's come across as LESS threatening than some dude shooting at a Zombie target or talking like a dork about his new Zombie ammunition? Come on.

I'm not defending zombie-culture; I think it's stupid, personally. But to blow it out of proportion and start telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing because of some dubious claim that it helps anti-gunners? Nope. I'm for getting people to take training seriously for its own sake, not because I think zombie shooters are helping the enemy.

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 15:55

Grant -- forget about what makes sense here for a second, and about the way things "should be." Think about it like an anti.

Do you seriously think that civilians in plate carriers, helmets, and multicam uniforms training with AR-15's comes across as LESS threatening than some dude shooting at a Zombie target or talking like a dork about his new Zombie ammunition? Come on.

No, but people never see them on TV. ;)

I'm not defending zombie-culture; I think it's stupid, personally. But to blow it out of proportion and start telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing because of some dubious claim that it helps anti-gunners? Nope. I'm for getting people to take training seriously for its own sake, not because I think zombie shooters are helping the enemy.

Oh its dumb on MANY fronts. I was just naming ONE.

C4

Koshinn

11-05-12, 15:55

Chris is like the Ron Jeremy of firearms. He's a little guy who can run a big gun (Larue OBR).

I took a carbine class with Costa last week. The class had all manner of fancy weapons (a couple of SCARs, a couple of SIG 556s, a lot of LWRCs, a couple Colts, a couple Noveskes, a couple LaRues), but everyone was using .223/5.56mm. Some people in the class had been to half a dozen carbine classes already, others were taking their very first one.

We did a competition on day 2 that was 5 rds, reload, 5 rds, at a target ~30-40 yds away. Any miss is a disqual and you're shooting for the best time. Chris beat everyone by a healthy margin... with a .308 LaRue.

He also explained the Operation Z series a little when someone asked him about it while we were loading mags, his response was basically what was posted earlier. To recap, it's easier to digest for the masses than shooting invaders or criminals, and he wants to provide at least fundamental training to as many people as possible in case they need it. A cheap DVD does this. He also said that the producers approached him, not the other way around.

Same with his doll.

tb-av

11-05-12, 16:27

Only a moron looks at a firearm and says; "I won't use this to defend myself."
C4

Not necessarily. I took someone shooting and she said that to me twice. I just let it go. That way she could enjoy a whole day of shooting, which she did. there is a time and place for everything.

Painting those new to guns as morons simply because they don't yet have the concept of killing humans at the forefront of their mind set is no different than gun grabbers saying all gun people are the same.

The whole Zombie thing is just a fad. I can't believe so many of you get so wrapped up about it.

theblackknight

11-05-12, 16:53

If you think a dude shooting a 12 Gauge at a zombie target bothers anti-gunners more than seeing a dude in a full tactical multicam getup run drills with an AR-15, you're dreaming. Stop with the ridiculous circular firing squad / polish ambush stuff already.

Again, which has more visibility?

I'm not exactly friends with Mr Multicam either unless he is hunting.

Also, I cannot express how much skill with a firearm is irrelevant in this issue.

GeorgiaBoy

11-05-12, 17:07

Actually the 2A talks specifically about a "well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State."

At no point can you take away from that statement that firearms are for ANYTHING OTHER than security/defense. Neither hunting or shooting zombie targets follows the motivation behind the 2A.

Should people be able to do whatever they want with a gun (legall)? Yes. Should they do it? No. This is the point I think that people are trying to make.

C4

No one is arguing that point. Sure, the second amendment is there for the above name reasons. (Security/self defense/tyrannically defense)

But, guess what, times have changed. The only people back then that shot for sport were rich aristocrats who could afford to do it. Militias trained, on occasion, but nothing spectacular.

Today, ammo, shooting sports, and firearms are much more prevalent. Shooting is no longer just about killing people, it has evolved into MANY sports, just like archery has.

brickboy240

11-05-12, 17:08

I really...really...REALLY wish all the "zombie" stuff would just go away.

The movies, the tv programs, the gun stuff, the ammo....all of it.

-brickboy240

Koshinn

11-05-12, 17:37

I really...really...REALLY wish all the "zombie" stuff would just go away.

The movies, the tv programs, the gun stuff, the ammo....all of it.

-brickboy240

Do you feel the same way about all horror genre monsters?

Larry Vickers

11-05-12, 20:09

Personally I have no axe to grind with Chris and he is just trying to make a living ; to each his own - I certainly don't begrudge him that

However speaking for me personally Hell will freeze solid 3 times over before you EVER see me do an action figure or Zombie training videos

I'm sure somewhere in the paperwork I signed during my time in Delta Force there was a clause where I can't embarrass myself or my former Unit in that way

If there isn't there sure as Hell should be

Just sayin...

LAV

Brimstone

11-05-12, 20:49

I really...really...REALLY wish all the "zombie" stuff would just go away.

The movies, the tv programs, the gun stuff, the ammo....all of it.

-brickboy240

Woah, slow down. I like my Walking Dead episodes I just don't want retards acting it out like a bunch of LARP fags.

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 20:53

No one is arguing that point. Sure, the second amendment is there for the above name reasons. (Security/self defense/tyrannically defense)

But, guess what, times have changed. The only people back then that shot for sport were rich aristocrats who could afford to do it. Militias trained, on occasion, but nothing spectacular.

Today, ammo, shooting sports, and firearms are much more prevalent. Shooting is no longer just about killing people, it has evolved into MANY sports, just like archery has.

Their primary roll is still self preservation. Everything else is way down the list.

I am willing to bet that if we asked people that are into this zombie BS if they were interested in a training class that they would say they can't afford it. :rolleyes:

C4

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 20:58

Not necessarily. I took someone shooting and she said that to me twice. I just let it go. That way she could enjoy a whole day of shooting, which she did. there is a time and place for everything.

Painting those new to guns as morons simply because they don't yet have the concept of killing humans at the forefront of their mind set is no different than gun grabbers saying all gun people are the same.

The whole Zombie thing is just a fad. I can't believe so many of you get so wrapped up about it.

There is a difference between someone just learning about firearms and someone that owns guns, shoots a lot and STILL thinks guns are for shooting zombie targets.

C4

GeorgiaBoy

11-05-12, 21:06

Their primary roll is still self preservation. Everything else is way down the list.

C4

Sure.

But endlessly shooting guns at paper targets knowing in the back of your head that the chance you will ever have to use that gun is very slim, can get boring.

Shooting sports gets people into shooting that normally wouldn't want to get involved. For example, IDPA is a great sport because it balances out the sport-like nature of it, but still retains a lot of defensive appeal. 3-gun is great because you get to try to stay proficient at three different firearm platforms..

If you aren't having fun shooting, whats the point?

C4IGrant

11-05-12, 21:12

Sure.

But endlessly shooting guns at paper targets knowing in the back of your head that the chance you will ever have to use that gun is very slim, can get boring.

Shooting sports gets people into shooting that normally wouldn't want to get involved. For example, IDPA is a great sport because it balances out the sport-like nature of it, but still retains a lot of defensive appeal. 3-gun is great because you get to try to stay proficient at three different firearm platforms..

If you aren't having fun shooting, whats the point?

I don't know. I see crime around me everyday.

If you are just shooting paper targets (without goals for improvement) does get old (agree). I train/shoot firearms to defend what is important to me. I collect firearms because they are interesting.

For fun, I play sports, Kayak and fly fish. YMMV.

C4

Crow Hunter

11-05-12, 21:14

Personally, I like Zombies and Zombie fiction.

I have been fan of the Survival Horror genre since I first saw Night of the Living Dead back in the '80s and I loved Resident Evil when it 1st came out on Playstation.

I am surprised by the number of people here that feel it is so stupid.

How do you guys feel about people that do Cowboy Action Shooting?

Civil War Reenactors?

WW II Reenactors?

WWII Warbirds pilots?

So are these guys losers and idiots to because they "dress up" and "play" with guns and aren't using them like they should?

Weapons should only be used for serious purposes, never just for fun?

Every time you pull that trigger it should be with the mindset and intent to take a human life?

I think "Zombies" are great way to get people involved in shooting. I have had several people who were completely new to guns tell me that they were interested in learning to shoot based just on the Walking Dead TV series alone. (Which I call All My Children are Dead and Walking:bad:)

They realized they were just as clueless about weapons as the characters in the show and they wanted to learn.

I don't see this as a bad thing.

The anti's just hate guns period, they don't need a reason. They are afraid of weapons and don't know how to use them and want to keep everyone else in the same boat.

tb-av

11-05-12, 21:34

There is a difference between someone just learning about firearms and someone that owns guns, shoots a lot and STILL thinks guns are for shooting zombie targets.
C4

Well, I thought the whole premise of this was indeed for beginners.

If I saw a bunch of grown men shooting zombies and they weren't joking around ( or some sort of themed match as mentioned by someone above ) .... yeah, I would be a bit concerned about their mental state.

J-Dub

11-05-12, 22:20

How do you guys feel about people that do Cowboy Action Shooting?

Civil War Reenactors?

WW II Reenactors?

So you're telling me that those things are in the same realm as zombies? You do know that the civil war and WWII actually occured right? There were people called "cowboys".

I cant find in history where zombies actually existed, besides these morons fantasys.

theblackknight

11-05-12, 22:38

acting it out like a bunch of LARP fags.

Thank you soo much. I had to google that. Why are all neckbeards the same?:D

I am surprised by the number of people here that feel it is so stupid.

How do you guys feel about people that do Cowboy Action Shooting?

Civil War Reenactors?

WW II Reenactors?

WWII Warbirds pilots?

So are these guys losers and idiots to because they "dress up" and "play" with guns and aren't using them like they should?

Weapons should only be used for serious purposes, never just for fun?

Every time you pull that trigger it should be with the mindset and intent to take a human life?

I think "Zombies" are great way to get people involved in shooting. I have had several people who were completely new to guns tell me that they were interested in learning to shoot based just on the Walking Dead TV series alone. (Which I call All My Children are Dead and Walking)

They realized they were just as clueless about weapons as the characters in the show and they wanted to learn.

I don't see this as a bad thing.

The anti's just hate guns period, they don't need a reason. They are afraid of weapons and don't know how to use them and want to keep everyone else in the same boat.

Of all the reasons people dont like firearms, historical depictions have got to be about 0. That includes the cowboy action types who do shows out west.

Koshinn

11-05-12, 22:53

If you aren't having fun shooting, whats the point for civilians that live and work in no/low crime areas?

Fixed that for you.

I shoot because it's fun, but also because I'm active duty military. Many here shoot for the same reasons, or maybe because they're LEOs or another individual that wears a gun for a living. Or maybe they just live in a place in which robberies, home invasions, rapes, and murders aren't exactly rare?

Iraqgunz

11-06-12, 00:43

I like zombie fiction as well. I also like coffee and spicy food. That doesn't mean I want hot sauce in my coffee in the morning.

The point being that I think the whole zombie thing has gone too far and I don't need it mixed with my guns, ammo, scopes, etc....

Personally, I like Zombies and Zombie fiction.

I have been fan of the Survival Horror genre since I first saw Night of the Living Dead back in the '80s and I loved Resident Evil when it 1st came out on Playstation.

I am surprised by the number of people here that feel it is so stupid.

How do you guys feel about people that do Cowboy Action Shooting?

Civil War Reenactors?

WW II Reenactors?

WWII Warbirds pilots?

So are these guys losers and idiots to because they "dress up" and "play" with guns and aren't using them like they should?

Weapons should only be used for serious purposes, never just for fun?

Every time you pull that trigger it should be with the mindset and intent to take a human life?

I think "Zombies" are great way to get people involved in shooting. I have had several people who were completely new to guns tell me that they were interested in learning to shoot based just on the Walking Dead TV series alone. (Which I call All My Children are Dead and Walking:bad:)

They realized they were just as clueless about weapons as the characters in the show and they wanted to learn.

I don't see this as a bad thing.

The anti's just hate guns period, they don't need a reason. They are afraid of weapons and don't know how to use them and want to keep everyone else in the same boat.

chadbag

11-06-12, 01:22

Honu

11-06-12, 01:52

I guess that if you don't like Zombie crap; don't buy Zombie crap.

I certainly don't have any interest in buying it.

But I don't have a conniption with all the Zombie themed stuff happening in the firearms market. If some people will buy it, let them buy it.

If Costa is helping bring more people into a defensive mindset, and they have a little fun with it, I see no harm.

If Hornady can make good money selling "Zombie" ammo -- more power to them. I think most people can see that it is just marketing to current themes; having a little fun. And if they can't, and want to try and bludgeon firearms owners with it, I think they are against us anyway no matter what.

I am not a Costa fanboy. I have little interest in what clothes he chooses to wear, except to see what he thinks is functional. I am pretty sure that almost none of my stuff [clothing or non firearms gear] is Costa-used or approved. I probably run certain Costa approved things on my firearms, but not because of him. (Probably because Magpul made them). I certainly have NO interest in a Costa action figure. Though I think it is hilarious that there is one. I'd like to know the backstory to how that came about (did he go out and do it? or did it come to him and he just embrace it?)

I do consider Chris an acquaintance, and would like to call him a friend. But I don't know him well enough to claim that distinction. He does recognize me when we run across one another and introduced me to his wife as a former student, and I've been in a few of his classes back in the MD team with Travis Haley. I respect his tremendous skill, teaching ability, and business acumen.

--

well said :)

I kinda laugh shake my head at the ricer race cars you see ?

if I want a nice fast car I will buy a Porsche :)

and yet the zombie stuff is kinda like that niche or others ? fun for those into it :)

same thing my 4x4 is setup to go off road and we do but with stuff that works
so instead of glowing lights like the ricers under it I have steel skid plates and rock sliders
yet we could both own toyota vehicles

now the mall cruiser that has that stuff looks funny :) and I do shake my head at but OH well if that makes them happy more power to them nothing like a off road truck with 6 inch lift and 40 inch mudders that never goes off road ! but does not make me think any less of toyotas or the people in them but they might be the zombie target types :) hahaahahah

all of those groups have cool folks and idiots !

I dont like shooting zombie targets and have no use to ?
watching walking dead is about as zombie as I get
watching westerns is about as western as I get

yet I see some hardcore cowboys here in PHX !!! again thats cool as long as they are good folks :) I got no issue I guess I kinda feel the same about zombie folks unless they try to walk around looking like them :) then I would think they are freaks !!!

Iraqgunz

11-06-12, 04:06

I want a Chris Costa zombie action figure now!

montanadave

11-06-12, 04:17

I want a Chris Costa zombie action figure now!

You can have mine ... when they pry my cold dead hands from around it!

Koshinn

11-06-12, 07:46

You can have mine ... when they pry my cold dead hands from around it!
So you're a zombie too?!

I certainly have NO interest in a Costa action figure. Though I think it is hilarious that there is one. I'd like to know the backstory to how that came about (did he go out and do it? or did it come to him and he just embrace it?)

IIRC, someone made a Costa action figure by mixing and matching a couple of other action figures a year or two ago, and it looked good enough that someone approached Costa to make a real "licensed" one. Apparently the zippers actually work, the pistol slide functions, and the figure's beard really does stop bullets, just like the real one.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/01/14/the-trainer-chris-costa-at-16th-still-has-11-beard/

Crow Hunter

11-06-12, 07:56

So you're telling me that those things are in the same realm as zombies? You do know that the civil war and WWII actually occured right? There were people called "cowboys".

I cant find in history where zombies actually existed, besides these morons fantasys.

Depends on your definition of "realm".

The CAS shooting has almost zero to do with historical accuracy. It is all centered around Hollywood fantasy, the only thing "historical" about it is the weapons used. Everything else is fantasy.

Civil War "reenactments" are usually VERY loosely based on battles and they have lots of "rules" about who has to die and such. I had a guy that used to work for me that was REALLY into it. While it is less based in fantasy, it is still make believe with real guns that are capable of killing someone. (I went to one and I thought it was exceptionally silly, but if someone else likes it, I don't care)

I have never been to a WWII reenactment, but I have been to several gun shows/air shows in which those guys were there, dressed up just like WWII soldiers with real working weapons, they weren't training to take on the Nazi's either.

Where does that put the large majority of members here? How many of them kit up in Multicam and plate carriers and go train with LAV/EAG/etc? With the exception of the active duty LEO/Military/PMC members, no one is probably going to use the skills they gain from these carbine classes. Do they kit up when they hear a weird noise at night? Carry their AR to the door when someone knocks on the door at O' Dark Thirty in the morning? Carbine skills aren't terribly applicable to normal day to day civilian activities. Maybe in a fantasy TEOTWAWKI/Red Dawn/Taliban in the Mall/Arab Spring USA scenario they might be useful, but is that much more likely to happen in real life than a "zombie" scenario? Civilians would most likely be much better off training in CCW type course with handguns than most carbine type courses. But they are fun, it doesn't hurt anything to have those skills at all.

The point being that I think the whole zombie thing has gone too far and I don't need it mixed with my guns, ammo, scopes, etc....

I agree that the "marketing" is going a little too far, but at the same time, I think that anything that gets more people interested in EBRs and gets them to buy them, means there are that many fewer Jim Zumbos out there.

Hopefully, at the same time, they will realize that they are lacking in training on how to use those cool "Zombie" guns and will seek it out. Having something that can bridge the fantasy into reality based training, can't be a bad thing.

I guarantee you that there are a lot of people out there that would be interested in going to a training class but are intimidated by the thought that they will be in a class with hard-line Military/LEO Operators and won't sign up for one because they don't want to feel out of place. If it is something like "Zombies" where they know they will be in the company of others that have the same interests and knowledge and it might even be some fun learning how to handle a weapon, they MAY be much more likely to go and participate and learn something. Hopefully, that will graduate them into more "professional" classes.

Hey, if it doesn't work out, maybe the Costa Cult will disintegrate.:eek:

davidjinks

11-06-12, 08:26

This is spot on!

However, I think if they invented a Thai curry coffee, I'd be on board!

I like zombie fiction as well. I also like coffee and spicy food. That doesn't mean I want hot sauce in my coffee in the morning.

The point being that I think the whole zombie thing has gone too far and I don't need it mixed with my guns, ammo, scopes, etc....

I like the Walking Dead as well as other movies depicting "Zombies". However linking shooting zombies into the defensive nature of firearms is the wrong answer.

Koshinn

11-06-12, 08:38

I like the Walking Dead as well as other movies depicting "Zombies". However linking shooting zombies into the defensive nature of firearms is the wrong answer.

I think many people see/use zombies as a "gateway drug" into survival, preparation, and shooting. And from personal experience, I know quite a few people who got into survival/prep/shooting because they first were interested in zombie/post-apocalyptic fiction. Then they started thinking about "what do I do if it happened in real life?" Then they realized they had zero worthwhile skills, and went about changing that.

These friends (and family members) of mine have no dillusions of an actual zombie apocalypse happening, but a large widespread natural disaster like Katrina/Sandy could very well happen... and did happen. They're now very glad that they stockpiled food, water, and medical supplies before everything flew off the shelves.

C4IGrant

11-06-12, 09:04

Well, I thought the whole premise of this was indeed for beginners.

Not IMHO.

If I saw a bunch of grown men shooting zombies and they weren't joking around ( or some sort of themed match as mentioned by someone above ) .... yeah, I would be a bit concerned about their mental state.

This is what I am seeing.

C4

Honu

11-06-12, 11:51

You can have mine ... when they pry my cold dead hands from around it!

that would be easy if you were a zombie as your fingers would just fall off like well cooked ribs :) and then you would kinda blow up :)

keeping with the zombie theme here :)

montanadave

11-06-12, 11:59

that would be easy if you were a zombie as your fingers would just fall off like well cooked ribs :) and then you would kinda blow up :)

keeping with the zombie theme here :)

And here I thought we were back to Azeka's. :smile:

GeorgiaBoy

11-06-12, 14:06

I don't know. I see crime around me everyday.

If you are just shooting paper targets (without goals for improvement) does get old (agree). I train/shoot firearms to defend what is important to me. I collect firearms because they are interesting.

For fun, I play sports, Kayak and fly fish. YMMV.

C4

My point still remains: Why look down on people who shoot for something other than defensive training? That is the gist I get from many on this forum. I'm well aware that this forum is fore more serious shooters, but that shouldn't mean those shooters need to look down on those that don't shoot the same way they do.

Someone who lives in downtown Atlanta probably has a lot more reasons to focus their defensive side shooting than someone living in a more rural part of the state, like me. I shoot because I've been shooting since I was a child. It's fun to me, whether its plinking with a .22, breaking clay pigeons, shooting at a local IDPA match, or just improving my carbine skills on my range. I do all of it because I enjoy it, but I know at the back of my head that with all the shooting I do I am indeed improving my chances of surviving a gun fight. But that's not necessarily what I focus on, because violent crime is near nonexistent where I live.

But I believe in each-to-his-own. If you want to shoot for the sole purpose of improving your chances of surviving a gun fight, go right ahead. If you want to shoot to have green slime ooze out of a zombie target, go ahead. If its something you are enjoying and are harming no one, go ahead.

nineteenkilo

11-06-12, 14:22

Where I live, firearms are primarily a hunting tool. Defense is secondary and a lot of times a taken-for-granted afterthought. If you break into a house in my area, you are likely to be shot - with a 30-30 or a 28" 12 gauge.

Zombies would probably be free to roam around if they were quiet and peaceable enough as long as they were not considered edible. If one could eat them - they'd be subject to season and bag limits. :D

Costa's a good guy who is trying to have a little fun. After reading "On Killing" by Dave Grossman, I have a little bit more insight into the innate resistance felt to killing another human being felt by most people. I have never experienced it personally.

C4IGrant

11-06-12, 14:29

My point still remains: Why look down on people who shoot for something other than defensive training? That is the gist I get from many on this forum. I'm well aware that this forum is fore more serious shooters, but that shouldn't mean those shooters need to look down on those that don't shoot the same way they do.

Because it is a waste of time, effort and resources???

C4

Grizzly16

11-06-12, 14:49

My point still remains: Why look down on people who shoot for something other than defensive training? That is the gist I get from many on this forum. I'm well aware that this forum is fore more serious shooters, but that shouldn't mean those shooters need to look down on those that don't shoot the same way they do.

You should find a forum dedicated to drag racing enthusiasts and post how grand theft auto is a great way to get folks interested in racing.

M4arc

11-06-12, 15:22

I hope this isn't a duplicate question but I didn' see it when I skimmed through the thread; what jacket was he wearing in that video?

Zhurdan

11-06-12, 15:27

I hope this isn't a duplicate question but I didn' see it when I skimmed through the thread; what jacket was he wearing in that video?

Well played!

GeorgiaBoy

11-06-12, 17:21

You should find a forum dedicated to drag racing enthusiasts and post how grand theft auto is a great way to get folks interested in racing.

I don't see how any interest in zombie shooting translate to a video game. A more correct analogy would be using Call of Duty to get people info shooting...

But that wasn't what your quoted post was about. I was asking if people on this forum (and specifically asked to Grant) think that USPSA, IPSC, Cowboy Action, Trap, Skeet, 3-gun, etc shooters are just wasting time and ammo because they shoot for sport and enjoyment rather than for defensive mindset training.

Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

Moose-Knuckle

11-06-12, 17:30

I hope this isn't a duplicate question but I didn' see it when I skimmed through the thread; what jacket was he wearing in that video?

ROTFLMFAO . . . :lol:

LowSpeed_HighDrag

11-06-12, 23:58

Costa has been slapping his name on anything moves and makes noise. Meanwhile, the real "operator" of the two is focusing on effective, grassroots training. One has a following asking about his forays into Africa, the other has a following asking his beard.

jaxman7

11-07-12, 01:38

I hope this isn't a duplicate question but I didn' see it when I skimmed through the thread; what jacket was he wearing in that video?

Man, I needed that laugh after tonight. Awesome!

-Jax

Caeser25

11-24-12, 14:20

I think many people see/use zombies as a "gateway drug" into survival, preparation, and shooting. And from personal experience, I know quite a few people who got into survival/prep/shooting because they first were interested in zombie/post-apocalyptic fiction. Then they started thinking about "what do I do if it happened in real life?" Then they realized they had zero worthwhile skills, and went about changing that.

These friends (and family members) of mine have no dillusions of an actual zombie apocalypse happening, but a large widespread natural disaster like Katrina/Sandy could very well happen... and did happen. They're now very glad that they stockpiled food, water, and medical supplies before everything flew off the shelves.

That's how I interpreted it while having some fun with it and not blindsiding sheeple from left field.

Shawn.L

11-24-12, 15:22

Was there a time when people took Mr Ludus seriously and I missed it?

Koshinn

11-24-12, 16:40

Was there a time when people took Mr Ludus seriously and I missed it?

He's a better shooter than 99% of the people on M4C. He has more real world experience than 99% of the people on M4C. He's a professional trainer.

Yes, he has an action figure, he has a branded gun from LaRue, and made this zombie video. But there are very very few people that can't learn shooting skills from him. And honestly, if you've ever met him, you'd know he's the most down-to-earth guy and has a great sense of humor.

He has somewhat become an easy target among the shooting community's version of hipsters... they think he "sold out" like some indie band. But I think the tactical shooting community can only benefit from people like him.

J-Dub

11-24-12, 18:40

Koshinn

11-24-12, 18:52

The shooting community can not and will not gain anything from all of this zombie BULLSHIT.

If you're older that 12 GROW UP, enough with the zombie everything crap (and go back to your airsoft stuff)

I disagree. Why do you feel that teaching people the proper way to shoot and defend themselves is wrong based on why they wanted to learn it? It's like restricting speech because you disagree with it. Guns can and should be used for any legal reason. Preparing for zombies is a bit silly, but is not illegal.

People say the same thing about obtaining weapons and training for any other type of shtf, including govt melt down.

theblackknight

11-24-12, 19:39

He's a better shooter than 99% of the people on M4C. He has more real world experience than 99% of the people on M4C. He's a professional trainer.

He has somewhat become an easy target among the shooting community's version of hipsters... they think he "sold out" like some indie band. But I think the tactical shooting community can only benefit from people like him.

The hipster comment is awesome and deserves it's own thread.

However, I cannot express how much a resume, or shooting skill means nothing on this issue. Zombie training is the gun world's world of warcraft or rubber chicken.

If you find out your local IFBB pro who runs training on the side also dose zumba classes, you don't have to dead more than him to go "wtf?:rolleyes:".

Business_Casual

11-24-12, 21:26

Think of it this way, what if when you were a little kid and you were scared of monsters under the bed, instead of being the man and not taking your silly fears seriously, your father came in to your room, got scared and hid in the closet with you shaking like a leaf. How messed up would your world be? Not to mention the run-on sentences. :D

bc

Ed L.

11-24-12, 21:37

I disagree. Why do you feel that teaching people the proper way to shoot and defend themselves is wrong based on why they wanted to learn it? It's like restricting speech because you disagree with it. Guns can and should be used for any legal reason. Preparing for zombies is a bit silly, but is not illegal.

I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting to outlaw it.

I think it trivializes a serious subject, and trying to bring fictitious monsters into training hurts credibility. It stinks of live action role playing.

As I've said, aren't there enough live humanoid predators and threats to worry about?

Ed L.

11-24-12, 21:40

He's a better shooter than 99% of the people on M4C. He has more real world experience than 99% of the people on M4C. He's a professional trainer.

I don't think anyone is denying this. It's because of this that some of us are very disappointed in him for going the Zombie route with a tape.

If it was certain other goofball trainers that come to mind, no one would be this surprised. But in this case we are saying, "Oh, no, Chris."

RIDE

11-24-12, 21:51

The more important question is, what is NuttinFancy's opinion of the video's?

FromMyColdDeadHand

11-25-12, 06:03

Was there a time when people took Mr Ludus seriously and I missed it?

Ever shoot with him?

ForTehNguyen

11-25-12, 13:42

The more important question is, what is NuttinFancy's opinion of the video's?

he would probably upload some 45 minute video of him talking where the actual review content is a couple minutes at the most.

yellowfin

11-25-12, 23:52

I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting to outlaw it.

I think it trivializes a serious subject, and trying to bring fictitious monsters into training hurts credibility. It stinks of live action role playing.

As I've said, aren't there enough live humanoid predators and threats to worry about?There are LOTS of live humanoid predators and threats, but it's considered impolite or "politically incorrect" to name them by name because of what religion, race, nationality, political point of view, etc. they may have. And as ninteenkilo pointed out, it makes a lot of people squeamish (and rightfully so, if you have a conscience) to think that the problems they might have to put 55 grains through (possibly times several dozen) in LA Riots 2.0 will likely have names that sound a lot like people they know and wearing clothes like they wear, maybe even stood in line with them at a baseball or football concession stand the previous week--with the alternative of course in that situation being worse like starving to death and/or being beaten, robbed, or even cannibalized. So calling them "zombies" is a convenient, if perhaps cheesy, way to get past the moral heebiejeebies problem otherwise stopping them in their tracks from enabling themselves to survive and prevail.

GeorgiaBoy

11-26-12, 00:39

There are LOTS of live humanoid predators and threats, but it's considered impolite or "politically incorrect" to name them by name because of what religion, race, nationality, political point of view, etc. they may have. And as ninteenkilo pointed out, it makes a lot of people squeamish (and rightfully so, if you have a conscience) to think that the problems they might have to put 55 grains through (possibly times several dozen) in LA Riots 2.0 will likely have names that sound a lot like people they know and wearing clothes like they wear, maybe even stood in line with them at a baseball or football concession stand the previous week--with the alternative of course in that situation being worse like starving to death and/or being beaten, robbed, or even cannibalized. So calling them "zombies" is a convenient, if perhaps cheesy, way to get past the moral heebiejeebies problem otherwise stopping them in their tracks from enabling themselves to survive and prevail.

Not according to a lot of people here. To them, they are just pussies, and a result of the "pussificaiton of America" over the past 100 years.

I think a lot of people over-simplify killing another human being, and down play the emotional affects it has and will have on the person who does it.

Zhurdan

11-26-12, 10:41

Not according to a lot of people here. To them, they are just pussies, and a result of the "pussificaiton of America" over the past 100 years.

I think a lot of people over-simplify killing another human being, and down play the emotional affects it has and will have on the person who does it.

I'd agree that taking a life is trivialized by many of those who haven't done so. I've never had to, but I've been close. (safety off and finger on the trigger before the dirtbag changed his mind). Even though I didn't have to shoot him, it still had lingering effects on me. Couldn't sleep but once I did get to sleep I had terrible nightmares about all the "what ifs" that would have resulted from dropping the hammer on some random douche.

I think the Zombie thing is simply a money driver... and guess what, it's working.

J-Dub

11-26-12, 11:18

I think the Zombie thing is simply a money driver... and guess what, it's working.

Yes, because people are dumbed down to an adolescent level.

Split66

11-26-12, 13:01

I can't believe people are getting bent out of shape over this. Who cares what Costa does? There is an SME here, that said it best......

"If you're gonna subscribe to hero worship, at least worship a real hero."

M4Guru

Ed L.

11-26-12, 20:46

There are LOTS of live humanoid predators and threats, but it's considered impolite or "politically incorrect" to name them by name because of what religion, race, nationality, political point of view, etc. they may have.

I understandd this. But I don't see a reason to go any further than refer to them as a generic threat--such as criminals if you are a civilian or LEO, or enemy combatants if you are in the military.

The Heller decision specifically cites defense against criminals as a justification for owning and using firearms in self defense. More states than ever allow concealled carry and have caslte doctrine. Some that don't have formal castle doctrine, like NY and California, have statutes on the books that allow the use of deadly physical force against a burglar.

All of these laws were passed specifically in regard to criminals, not zombies. Defense against criminals is a perfectly valid legal reason, as is that you just enjoy owning and shooting firearms. But tell them you are worried about zombies when you apply for a carry permit and see what happens.

And as ninteenkilo pointed out, it makes a lot of people squeamish (and rightfully so, if you have a conscience) to think that the problems they might have to put 55 grains through (possibly times several dozen) in LA Riots 2.0 will likely have names that sound a lot like people they know and wearing clothes like they wear, maybe even stood in line with them at a baseball or football concession stand the previous week--with the alternative of course in that situation being worse like starving to death and/or being beaten, robbed, or even cannibalized. So calling them "zombies" is a convenient, if perhaps cheesy, way to get past the moral heebiejeebies problem otherwise stopping them in their tracks from enabling themselves to survive and prevail.

If people are making up fantasies like this they are ****ing up their mental preparation to use deadly physical force against a violent criminal and creating possible hesitation that might cost them their lives. What do you do, stop and ask the criminal to put on fake blood or a zombie mask before they shoot them?

yellowfin

11-26-12, 22:05

^ Hmm, I see your point. Well, perhaps a more specific term to denote a more specific scenario than "criminals", requiring elevated levels of ammo and other supplies, would be then looters and/or rioters. More realistic, yes? Just thinking of criminals suggests one or two lowlifes in a Walmart parking lot at 9-10:30 at night for which a simple .38 or similar will suffice. Threats in larger numbers are a different scenario entirely so thinking just simple criminal doesn't compute. Also, and I don't want to belabor this too much, a lot of potential for threats of large number may not be criminal at all but instead state sanctioned and authorized under order of authority gone wrong--still very much a need to defend oneself from them.

I do think, however, that the degree of separation is what is necessary for some people. "In case I've gotta shoot at a lot of people" just doesn't sound right when you say it to another person and really doesn't sound all that great at least half the time saying it to yourself. For some people adding in the science fiction is simply the sugar coating needed to get oneself through the task of preparation for what when looked at in total seriousness goes against a lot of what our normal human experience tells us is something we'd want anything to do with. Like it or not, we do have to be human beings and account for that in other people. Maybe it's not optimal but it's like the cherry flavoring for some medicines that makes taking them more bearable. Remember taking Flintstones vitamins as a kid? How about getting a lollipop for going to the doctor or dentist?

Ed L.

11-27-12, 00:50

^ Hmm, I see your point. Well, perhaps a more specific term to denote a more specific scenario than "criminals", requiring elevated levels of ammo and other supplies, would be then looters and/or rioters. More realistic, yes?

I prefer to stay generic by leaving it at self defense/home defense, or general emergency/disruption like Hurricane Sandy when it comes to stocking supplies and such. Be careful throwing out terms like riots&looters, people start thinking of that show Doomsday Preppers.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't have a problem with using carefully defined actual events, like saying that some situations could require more capable firearms--like ones where law enforcement might not able to respond for a while where you might find yourself facing more numerous threats for an extended period of time--something like Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Sandy, or the LA Riots. Be careful who you say it to and how you explain it.

If you want to discuss preparations among likeminded friends or on forums dedicated to that, I see no problem. But using the explanation that you are buying firearms and supplies to prepare for zombies will make you look like more of a wierdo to some people.

Just thinking of criminals suggests one or two lowlifes in a Walmart parking lot at 9-10:30 at night for which a simple .38 or similar will suffice. Threats in larger numbers are a different scenario entirely so thinking just simple criminal doesn't compute.

Police in much of the US have migrated to higher capacity handguns, and often carry AR-15 type patrol rifles in their cars for when going to face a known armed threat. You simply want the same capable safety equipment to protect yourself that the police use. You can point out how many rounds the police often need to fire to stop violent criminals in real life vs. movies, and point out that home invaders often operate in small gangs.

Also, and I don't want to belabor this too much, a lot of potential for threats of large number may not be criminal at all but instead state sanctioned and authorized under order of authority gone wrong--still very much a need to defend oneself from them.

I don't know that I would even mention this if you feel this way. I don't see that mentioning that you might be preparing to go Red Dawn with the governent will help your credibility in many circles. If anything, it will make you look Black Helicopter-ish.

I do think, however, that the degree of separation is what is necessary for some people. "In case I've gotta shoot at a lot of people" just doesn't sound right when you say it to another person and really doesn't sound all that great at least half the time saying it to yourself.

Why would you want to say 'in case I gotta shoot at a lot of people'? Someone would have to be socially retarded to say such a thing in this day and age, unless you'd possibly like to get your guns confiiscated and taken in for a psychiatric evaluation. The context of self defense and/or home defense is essential, unless you want to be mistaken for the next mass shooter.

This is why it's better to give real reasons, as in you enjoy owning, collecting and shooting these these types of firearms; or that you own these high capability firearms for defense for the same reasons that the police select them. This is where the whole zombie thing/fantasy scenario falls on its face and hurts your credibility.

For some people adding in the science fiction is simply the sugar coating needed to get oneself through the task of preparation for what when looked at in total seriousness goes against a lot of what our normal human experience tells us is something we'd want anything to do with.

Sometimes you don't get a choice, especially if someone kicks in your door or attacks you on the street. So you better be as ready as you can be, rather than creating an extra layer of separation with the whole zombie thing.

I don't want to sound like one of those unwarranted chestbeaters that you see on some forums, and you encounter in *some* instructors--the rah, rah, rah, kill 'em all BS. Most of the time, whether in training classes or shooting by myself, I am simply thinking of shooting my guns at the paper or steel targets. Most of the people and almost all of the instructors that I've trained with are similar in this regard. But that doesn't meant that we haven't given a lot of thought and training to the defensive application of those guns.

How about getting a lollipop for going to the doctor or dentist?

Guns, ammo, and accessories are better than any lollipop. For most of us, just owning and shooting them is an enjoyable experience and a reward in itself.

polymorpheous

11-27-12, 01:20

A lot of the members commenting about the social conditioning, pussification, etc, would do well to read "On Killing".

As far as Costa goes...
The quote about hero worship sums things up well.
Can the man shoot? Hell yeah!
Is he a good instructor? Probably so.
But some of these guys get creepy with their downright obsession ith the guy.

Moose-Knuckle

11-27-12, 03:50

A lot of the members commenting about the social conditioning, pussification, etc, would do well to read "On Killing".

Great read, he has some more works out as well.

http://www.killology.com/index.htm

Mjolnir

11-27-12, 06:29

In some circles the word zombie is synonymous with the Elite's "useless eater" or general public.

Ref; Agenda 21, Global 2000 Report, etc.

brickboy240

11-27-12, 12:58

Do you think...in certain circles...that "zombie" is code word for "hood rat?"

...I tend to think so.

-brickboy240

GeorgiaBoy

11-27-12, 13:18

Do you think...in certain circles...that "zombie" is code word for "hood rat?"

...I tend to think so.

-brickboy240

"Certain circles". Maybe. To 98% of most people? No.

If anything, it could be a code word for hoodlums and barbarians that always erupt in a time of crisis. Like the looters after Katrina, or Sandy.

Mjolnir

11-27-12, 15:06

Do you think...in certain circles...that "zombie" is code word for "hood rat?"

...I tend to think so.

-brickboy240

If you're not "one of them" (the Global Elite coterie) then you're most likely a zombie. In their eyes at least.

Your perception will hopefully differ.

NCPatrolAR

11-30-12, 20:58

He shall lead us from the zombie darkness

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Sale%20Stuff/319617_342863715812042_1937834733_n.jpg

Iraqgunz

11-30-12, 23:49

I have been struggling for a while to decide on what my next tattoo will be. You just solved the mystery. :dance3:

He shall lead us from the zombie darkness

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Sale%20Stuff/319617_342863715812042_1937834733_n.jpg

Belmont31R

12-01-12, 00:34

Why are people so afraid to say black people have a higher poverty rate, higher rate of crime, higher unemployment rates, higher incarceration rates, ect, than any other race? If SHTF, and urban areas erupted it's obvious black people would be a predominant cause.

FWIW all that is public information put out by various government sources. I'd hate to think we can't 'repost' some information our own government puts out.

Hood rat, ghetto rat, et al are people who live in 'the projects', and theres some white people down there, too, as well as Mexican's and orientals. I once saw a kid, prob about 10 or 12, out as a guard with a walkie talkie in a predominately hispanic area within the urban setting of a large city during the middle of the day. Kid should have been in school. Like it not these areas usually are not full of white folks.

We are, at any given time, within a day or two of total social collapse... http://youtu.be/8ClLUixSCLY http://youtu.be/4dinIGlzlwY

Brimstone

12-01-12, 01:20

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/01/6eny9yma.jpg

FromMyColdDeadHand

12-01-12, 10:13

Zombies represent a number of things:
A general breakdown in society
Govt unable to deal with the issue fast enough
The ultimate us vs. them scenario
Only the choosen and prepared survive
The overwhelming tidal forces of popular consumerism

All these things speak at a basic level to conservatives.

RogerinTPA

12-01-12, 11:29

I don't think anyone is saying that Costa has lost his f--kin mind, lacks skill or has no business sense, or anything in that direction at all. Just, as some folks have alluded to, disappointed in him using the Zombie thing as a training tool. Who knows, maybe it will be a fantastic money maker for him, and good on him if it does. I would have appreciated his efforts if he would have addressed more of a realistic SHTF scenarios: riots, Katrina, flash mob, handling bad guys in the parking lot of a restaurant/movie theater (with family in tow), handling a mall or school mass shooting scenario, where family, friends, neighbors, colleagues ban together to do what ever it took to mitigate a, or several threats and evac/E&E the hot zone, defend the neighborhood, etc... I haven't seen the finished product so I don't if any of these things are address. Just something a little more practical and realistic...Something that most people that train as we do, can wrap are heads around.