View Full Version : How thick should AR steel plate be for targets?
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I have the opportunity to buy a full 4x8 sheet of AR plate at work. I am wondering how thick would be the minimum for 5.56 rounds - lead only, 55-77gr.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-31-12, 05:58
I have mad quite a few of them 1/4 to 3/8 should be enough as long as you are using AR500 steel. If not AR500 then it will not last very long.
Good question. I had been wondering the same thing myself. So have my neighbors.
I've been running 3/8" AR 500 at 50 yards and out with no issues. I have a feeling they will last for quite some time...
As long as we are on this topic. Are those self healing targets worth a crap?
As long as we are on this topic. Are those self healing targets worth a crap?
Only in video games.
1/4" will last a long time at 200 yards and beyond.
At 100 yards it'll last pretty long if you stay off of XM193. XM193 wears out armor quick.
3/8 for any kind of consistent shooting inside of 100. XM193 will break 3/8 armor like a hole puncher at 50 yards and in if the plates aren't angled off of perpendicular.
Failure2Stop
10-31-12, 08:33
1/4" will last a long time at 200 yards and beyond.
At 100 yards it'll last pretty long if you stay off of XM193. XM193 wears out armor quick.
3/8 for any kind of consistent shooting inside of 100. XM193 will break 3/8 armor like a hole puncher at 50 yards and in if the plates aren't angled off of perpendicular.
I agree with this.
Further, any exposure to high heat (welding) will significantly degrade the strength of the steel in the area of exposure.
I default to 3/8 for all use.
1/4" will last a long time at 200 yards and beyond.
At 100 yards it'll last pretty long if you stay off of XM193. XM193 wears out armor quick.
3/8 for any kind of consistent shooting inside of 100. XM193 will break 3/8 armor like a hole puncher at 50 yards and in if the plates aren't angled off of perpendicular.
I'm scared to shoot rifle at any plates inside of 100 yards. I angle all of my plates so as to direct the fragments to the ground.
Doc. Holiday
10-31-12, 09:07
As long as we are on this topic. Are those self healing targets worth a crap?
I had a chance to see a few and to be honest, buy the steel instead. They say they are self healing, but if you are a heavy shooter and burn more than 500 rds a year, you're going to find out that the "self healing" holes can't seem to keep up.
well hell! i guess allll xm193 will be for punching paper.
whats a good bulk ammo to buy for steel?
I default to 3/8 for all use.
1/4" is nice at 600 yards and beyond. 3/8 just hardly moves or rings.
I'm scared to shoot rifle at any plates inside of 100 yards. I angle all of my plates so as to direct the fragments to the ground.
We shoot them much closer than that. And the slanted steel we'll shot as clost as 10 yards.
well hell! i guess allll xm193 will be for punching paper.
whats a good bulk ammo to buy for steel?
The heavier the bullet, the better. But stuff like PMC bronze which is mild isn't too bad. XM193 is fine beyond 100 because a 55 grain bullet sheds velocity very quickly.
The idea is low velocity. That's why even M855 is easier on AR500 plate than XM193 inside of 100.
1/4" will last a long time at 200 yards and beyond.
At 100 yards it'll last pretty long if you stay off of XM193. XM193 wears out armor quick.
3/8 for any kind of consistent shooting inside of 100. XM193 will break 3/8 armor like a hole puncher at 50 yards and in if the plates aren't angled off of perpendicular.
Mostly this. I have been able to shoot XM193 at 50 (AR500) and it will pit worse than any other ammo. I try to use low power ammo on steel for plinking.
3/8 AR500 will last pretty long. Shootsteel.com has good prices and you can turn the target around when it pits too bad on one side opposed to some targets that you have the mount on the back so you can only use one side.
1/4" is nice at 600 yards and beyond. 3/8 just hardly moves or rings.
We shoot them much closer than that. And the slanted steel we'll shot as clost as 10 yards.
The heavier the bullet, the better. But stuff like PMC bronze which is mild isn't too bad. XM193 is fine beyond 100 because a 55 grain bullet sheds velocity very quickly.
The idea is low velocity. That's why even M855 is easier on AR500 plate than XM193 inside of 100.
Also my experience ^^^
I'll try and get a few pics of the targets we use. We got a deal at our club, (as in free) on some old Level III steel and coated steel armor plates. At 50-yards, the thicker plates, (I'm guessing 1/4" until I measure) have been hit thousands of times with everything 5.56 and .308 - even some odd 7.62x54r and hunting rounds and have not been penetrated. A thinner body armor plate took 7 hits of XM193 to penetrate, but a newer 'coated' thin performs like the older heavy plate and had no rounds through. We do have some 1/4" AR500 plate that we have yet to cut. We hang the plates on a bracket which angles the plate slightly, (about 8º) and while I'm no engineer, I think it helps with the longevity of the steel...ETA: Like Markm - we shoot them at close range - out to 200-yards
GUNSLINGER733
10-31-12, 11:42
3/8" will be longest lasting as stated.
cthompson36
10-31-12, 17:06
If its AR steel it's good to go. I bought "AR500" steel off ebay and it blows.... It's 1/2" and at 100 yds tula's blow holes straight through it...
FNG here. YouTube of AR500 standing up to .50 cal. Seems relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJdz8iVUtiw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
FNG here. YouTube of AR500 standing up to .50 cal. Seems relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJdz8iVUtiw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
That thumped the gong a little. We were out shooting next to some guys that had an AR50, and the guy's Swarovski Barret scopes reticle didn't even start until 500 yards.
Failure2Stop
11-01-12, 08:13
Wanted to give some clarification on my "default to 3/8" comment:
If you are going to be shooting within 100 meters, the issue is not bullet penetration, but front face cratering/chipping. Dents of greater than 1/16 can affect spall pattern, resulting in erratic spall, which leads to more chunks of metal being bounced back uprange.
Having a forward cant of 30 degrees helps greatly in this regard.
Most of my steel use is from 25 to 200 meters, with a bit at longer range, and I have to bring my own for that envelope as most places get cheap steel that gets torn up at close range or does not sit at an acceptable angle for closer work with rifle calibers.
I have AR500 steel IPSC targets on a 30 degree angle. They are 3/8 in. thick and I have shot them from as close as 6 feet (testing) with both 5.56 and 7.62x51 and they stand up perfectly to the abuse.
If you are using mild steel instead of AR500 steel, it will get pockmarked no matter how thick it is.
I have AR500 steel IPSC targets on a 30 degree angle. They are 3/8 in. thick and I have shot them from as close as 6 feet (testing) with both 5.56 and 7.62x51 and they stand up perfectly to the abuse.
3/8" at a 30 degree angle gives you an effective thickness of about 1/2".
7.62 ball ammo is nothing for AR500. 5.56 is much more abusive. I can shoot AR450 with 7.62 and it looks like a 45 acp splatter mark.... again.. all about the velocity.
Even our 3/8" slanted gongs will only take so many hits of XM193 at short ranges before perforations start occuring.
Here is a photo I recently took of a new 3/8" AR 500 steel plate shot with XM193 at 50 yards. In the upper right part of the photo is a pock mark painted over that shows the depth of the pock mark. It will make tiny pock marks, but that’s it. It will last a long time. I hang it from a shepherds hook and use the other side for handguns.
http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/146579878/original.jpg
...
Having a forward cant of 30 degrees helps greatly in this regard...
Good to know. Thanks.
Here is a photo I recently took of a new 3/8" AR 500 steel plate shot with XM193 at 50 yards. In the upper right part of the photo is a pock mark painted over that shows the depth of the pock mark. It will make tiny pock marks, but that’s it. It will last a long time. I hang it from a shepherds hook and use the other side for handguns.
XM193 is brutal on armor. You WILL eventually perforate that gong if you continue to use that nasty ammo at that close range.
When I'm wanting to shoot inside of 40 yards, I'll handload some varmint grenades. They're almost as mild as frangibles on the gongs.
You want to keep your gongs nice and smooth like this one! :p
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/hudson107.jpg
Doc. Holiday
11-02-12, 09:43
Now that's pretty! :D
Those suckers have seen many years of AR15 abuse. Pieces are starting to fall off of them. :(
193 is worse than 855? Even the green tip with penetrator stuff? And how does 1/2" compare?
Ready.Fire.Aim
11-11-12, 21:31
Hanging at angle seems to help. I buy whatever steel scrap I can at a local steel supplier for targets. He often has 3/8 and 1/2 scrap pieces.
Have fun
RFA
You want to keep your gongs nice and smooth like this one! :p
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/hudson107.jpg
One of the former ranges I used to shoot at had some plates like that.
I later saw one of these plates after they took it down, it looked like Swiss cheese. BIG holes too. That explained all my mysterious misses. :p
Failure2Stop
11-11-12, 22:22
193 is worse than 855? Even the green tip with penetrator stuff? And how does 1/2" compare?
Yup.
Speed is the name of the game when it comes to steel penetration, unless you step up to a large, heavy penetrator as found in M995. The "penetrator" in M855 is laughable, and really only serves to provide a bit more extra spall to deal with when shooting at steel.
1/2" steel is fine, but heavier than needed and produces even less movement and ring than 3/8".
Yup.
Speed is the name of the game when it comes to steel penetration, unless you step up to a large, heavy penetrator as found in M995. The "penetrator" in M855 is laughable, and really only serves to provide a bit more extra spall to deal with when shooting at steel.
1/2" steel is fine, but heavier than needed and produces even less movement and ring than 3/8".
And all this time I've been avoiding M855... I assume the M193 has higher velocity because of the lighter weight? Obviously I'm not well-read in most ballistics yet. And does the 1/2" have any benefits that make it worth while? Better longevity or more durability at closer range, etc?
Failure2Stop
11-12-12, 01:11
And all this time I've been avoiding M855... I assume the M193 has higher velocity because of the lighter weight? Obviously I'm not well-read in most ballistics yet. And does the 1/2" have any benefits that make it worth while? Better longevity or more durability at closer range, etc?
The biggest difference that I have seen in steel targets is in manufacturer quality. I trust companies like MGM, Tac-Strike, and Porta-Target, having seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds pushed into them at responsible distances of several calibers. I do not trust random steel distributors' offerings.
Frankly, I have not seen sufficient quantities of 1/2" steel in direct comparison to 1/4" or 3/8" to offer any insight beyond that already given. Once again, longevity is not based on perforation, but rather deformation of the front face, and once the front face is severely pitted the target should be moved to long(ish) range (100 meters or greater), and shot until it crumbles.
And all this time I've been avoiding M855... I assume the M193 has higher velocity because of the lighter weight? It's a physics thing, and your assumptions are correct in this particular case.
Kinetic energy at point of impact is the key.
Both rounds fired on a level line will hit the ground at the same time, M855 significantly farther out, even though M193 got to the 1/3 mark significantly sooner. Velocity & weight factored together equals the amount of force transmitted to the target.
A properly worded search phrase will turn up more than you wanted to know about the subject on these two particular rounds.
3/8" AR is probably the better plan for weight and cost. If I can get a slight dome to the face, it should increase the longevity. Maybe even a little hammer treatment.
The biggest difference that I have seen in steel targets is in manufacturer quality. I trust companies like MGM, Tac-Strike, and Porta-Target, having seen tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds pushed into them at responsible distances of several calibers. I do not trust random steel distributors' offerings.
Frankly, I have not seen sufficient quantities of 1/2" steel in direct comparison to 1/4" or 3/8" to offer any insight beyond that already given. Once again, longevity is not based on perforation, but rather deformation of the front face, and once the front face is severely pitted the target should be moved to long(ish) range (100 meters or greater), and shot until it crumbles.
It's a physics thing, and your assumptions are correct in this particular case.
Kinetic energy at point of impact is the key.
Both rounds fired on a level line will hit the ground at the same time, M855 significantly farther out, even though M193 got to the 1/3 mark significantly sooner. Velocity & weight factored together equals the amount of force transmitted to the target.
A properly worded search phrase will turn up more than you wanted to know about the subject on these two particular rounds.
3/8" AR is probably the better plan for weight and cost. If I can get a slight dome to the face, it should increase the longevity. Maybe even a little hammer treatment.
I know its all around here, just haven't had time to get to that stuff yet. Thanks guys.
But stuff like PMC bronze which is mild isn't too bad.
I keep hearing this about PMC. I've consistently chronographed Bronze 55grain consistently at 2880 FPS from my 16 inch Noveske. How are we defining "mild"?
1/2" steel is fine, but heavier than needed and produces even less movement and ring than 3/8".
Here's a magazine of 55 gr PMC Bronze out of my 11.5 SBR (2450 FPS) from about 35 yards on a 1/2 inch AR500 gong.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vtpGrPpxIEA
I keep hearing this about PMC. I've consistently chronographed Bronze 55grain consistently at 2880 FPS from my 16 inch Noveske. How are we defining "mild"?
That's pretty good velocity. I got not much more than that from a 20" Hbar a while back.
It's possible they've changed the load... or the Noveske just shoots a faster bullet compared to a USGI barrel.
We shoot them much closer than that. And the slanted steel we'll shot as clost as 10 yards.
:eek: I have a bullet in my leg from shooting at plates from 30 feet...it's all fun till someone gets shot
Failure2Stop
11-12-12, 15:21
Here's a magazine of 55 gr PMC Bronze out of my 11.5 SBR (2450 FPS) from about 35 yards on a 1/2 inch AR500 gong.
It's more of an "at distance" thing, as mentioned by markm earlier.
At 200 yards they are all fine, gets rough by the time you get to 500.
It's more of an "at distance" thing, as mentioned by markm earlier.
At 200 yards they are all fine, gets rough by the time you get to 500.
We've never shot them at distances greater than 100 yards. IIRC, the 1/2 inch gongs were not much more expensive than the 3/8, so we went that way.
We've never shot them at distances greater than 100 yards. IIRC, the 1/2 inch gongs were not much more expensive than the 3/8, so we went that way.
That's why I was wondering. Big Dog Steel has really low prices so I am tempted to get a little something for the odd occasion I go somewhere that I can actually shoot steel. Its only like $10 more from them for 1/2" over 3/8" for their 8x8 square plate IIRC.
Failure2Stop
11-12-12, 21:13
That's why I was wondering. Big Dog Steel has really low prices so I am tempted to get a little something for the odd occasion I go somewhere that I can actually shoot steel. Its only like $10 more from them for 1/2" over 3/8" for their 8x8 square plate IIRC.
There are a few factors that come into play, but if you keep it within 200 yards (and even in excess of 300, depending) you should be able to hear/see hits.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I'd go with 3/8"....specifically from CMP.
You can hear bang............dings from 1038yds away using my MWS 16" .308. I doubt I could have heard 1/2"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dQtP8B03XuM
vicious_cb
11-13-12, 02:47
F2S have you shot 5.45 at steel? I heard the steel slug can be pretty bouncy and I was wondering what ranges would be safe to shoot at and not damage the plate.
well hell! i guess allll xm193 will be for punching paper.
whats a good bulk ammo to buy for steel?
We shot a ton of m193 at steel at 36-50 yards and it held up fine. 1" AR500.
F2S have you shot 5.45 at steel? I heard the steel slug can be pretty bouncy and I was wondering what ranges would be safe to shoot at and not damage the plate.
I've shot russian surplus 5.45 from 100 yds. at my 1/2" ar500 plates and it slightly dimples them. I haven't noticed this from 193 or 855.
We shot a ton of m193 at steel at 36-50 yards and it held up fine. 1" AR500.
Not too many people have 1" AR500 :p
That's a boat anchor.... not a target.
Not too many people have 1" AR500 :p
That's a boat anchor.... not a target.
I believe they said it was 1". I know it was $400 per target. I did not go and eyeball the myself to be sure, though. Maybe it was 1/2". Either way, each target took around 12,000 rounds of M193 this last weekend at 30-50 yards, and they looked fine to me when I went near 'em. Like I said, I didn't get all up on them, but I didn't see any damage from the 7-yard line.
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