View Full Version : Help me choose .223 dies
I want to start buying some supplies to reload .223
My barrel is the Bravo SS 1/8
From reading several threads here is what I want to start with.
SMK 69g bullets - everyone seems to like those
H322 - Markm swears by this so why not
Now here is my issue. I've only loaded pistol so far.
I have at my disposal.
1 Single Stage press
1 550B
1 Hand primer
What I want to do is purchase some dies that give good results and don;t know what to get. Especially the sizing die. I've read FL dies but then some remove the ball sizer, and some say size the neck, basically I'm confused on which die to get and also how to use it in context of the presses I have.
The other one is the reading micrometer die. They seem to have several.
I will probably buy a new powder measure as well, so is there a better powder measure, die/measure combo, or additional tools I should use.
Can anyone list a specific shopping list. Oh the case trimmer I think I'm going with is the WFT model.
Right now I would like to get to prepping some cases and I would like to get that sizing deal under control. I can take my time on purchasing the other dies and measure. I just don't fully understand what some of these rifle dies are doing and wanted to buy something geared toward making an accurate load.
Thanks for suggestions. Basically if you were replacing all your dies and powder measure, what exactly would you get and what does it do to make life better.
S. Galbraith
11-02-12, 09:10
If there is any confusion at all for you, I would just buy a quick change kit from Dillon Precision with carbide Dillon .223 dies. The nice thing about Dillon dies is that you get three dies, so you can better control your seating and crimping. You can get a complete kit at Brian Enos' store:
http://www.brianenos.com/store/dillon.conv.550.html
His 550 Ez-Buy Conversion Packages have everything you need for a full conversion with a quick change toolhead and shell plate. The Top-Notch kit is the one you would want, that inclues everything.
What purpose are you reloading for? That will make a big difference. If you're shooting mostly 300m and under with a carbine, there's no need for micrometer dies and powder tricklers. If you're loading for 400m+ high accuratcy rounds, that's a different story.
What are you going for?
Semi-auto rounds get FL sized. If you have a bolt action rifle (and all the same rifle) you can neck size the brass. It works the brass less. It is suppose to increase accuracy.
Semi-auto rounds get FL sized. If you have a bolt action rifle (and all the same rifle) you can neck size the brass. It works the brass less. It is suppose to increase accuracy. But an AR 15 needs to have a full length sizing.
OK guys let me add a bit here. These are the things I know and am comfortable with.
The whole Dillon caliber change situation. I know I can simply order the whole setup and start reloading.
Regarding the micrometer and trickler. My shooting will be under 300 and probably more like 100 but I like to plan ahead. Also I prefer to buy "better" with the thought that if I ever sell it, the money I loose will be like rental. The loss or rent will be about the same in dollars so I get to use the higher end component for the same price. I just have to spend more money up front. Especially regarding the micrometer die, I'm not fond of adjusting Dillon seating dies. It's a PITA in my experience to make fine adjustments. I assume the micrometer die alleviates that.
Would there be any reason not to buy this one?
http://www.forsterproducts.com/catalog.asp?prodid=700799&showprevnext=1
============
sizing dies.... I get that rifle cases get FL sizing, but some people say they remove the ball sizer. There are neck sizer dies that say they retain the "fire formed" case size.
This is really the one that's got me confused. I understand I can get a Dillon die and go to town reloading. what I don't get is why people do it various ways. Are some doing two sizing steps?
Also Forster recommends a de-capping die for crimped Mil cases. should I consider a de-capping only die? Maybe run that in my single stage. IOW, just de-prime the used brass and toss it in the tumbler.
1- Deprime
2 - Tumble
3 - prep primer pockets and make sure no media clogs
4 - lube
5 - size by one means or another
6- trim
7 - tumble and assure clean primer pockets
8 - hand prime
===========
Now on the 550B
1- Powder
2- Check powder ( just realized Dillon doesn't make that for the 550B ) --- how do you check powder? - random sample?
3- Seat
4- Crimp
=========== Factory Crimp Die
This is another area I don't understand. Many people seem to use the Lee FCD. I don't understand why, but I don't want to simply jump into a regular set of Dillon dies when the FCD would be a better choice.
IOW... I get the general concept and am comfortable with how the 550B works and changing calibers and all that, but I don't understand some of the subtle aspects of why people use one method over another. Mostly in regard to sizing, trimming and OAL.
There are many options for reloading depending on how accurate you want. But as mentioned it is more work. If you shoot lots of ammo under 300 yds then it doesn't make sense to do all of them. If you shoot much fewer rounds very accurately beyond 300 then sure.
I do use a separate Lee universal decapping die for military crimped primers. It is much tougher than the decapper in my regular dies. I have a regular Lee FL resizing die for first time resize of a case. Then I trim to 1.750" and thereafter resize with an RCBS X-Die which holds the case length to my trim length when resizing. Be sure to lube inside the case necks. This stays on my turret and is never adjusted.
Seating precision of micrometer stem is only noticeable for beyond 300. Get it if you want but much more expense.
I do have a separate crimp die but actually rarely use it. If a bullet like 55 FMJ has a cannelure I will very lightly crimp. But the majority of my bullets are 60-77 gr without cannelures and I don't crimp. Never had an issue with bullets moving in or out.
I am mostly loading for under 300, and my 600 yd loads are perfectly fine for my non-match grade barrel and skill. That is the variability of me and my bbl are greater than the variances from case alignment, bullet seating, powder charges, neck tension.
I would get the basics for general purpose reloading of .223 and the Sierra manual. After learning what you can from reading and experience then decide if you need more stuff. Maybe not.
I do have a micrometer stem on my RCBS uniflow powder measure.
I prefer to size on a single stage, even though I load .223/5.56 on a Dillon 1050 progressive. If sizing on the 550B, I suggest a Dillon sizer since they are designed to work with the progressive (very little or no pressure needed on the ram, or in this case the shell plate). Whatever you use, be sure to verify the neck tension is solid if shooting in a semi-auto.
You will need to trim as well if processing 5.56 brass. My Dillon electric trimmer was just replaced with a Giraud (so far just for 7.62), and I'll never go back. The Dillon Trimmer works well as a sizer of course and even adds a little more (~.0005") neck tension for .223 (a good thing, IMO), but the Dillon Trimmer excessively sizes the necks on .308/7.62. Food for thought if you plan on loading other rifle calibers in the future.
A Dillon (best design by far) Universal decaping die in station one on the progressive reloading set-up is a way to knock out any polishing media from the flash hole - plus it can be used to decap a batch if mil brass.
Another Universal decaping die in a dedicated tool head is handy for mil brass, but decaping crimped 5.56 primers with the sizer die works OK as well.
Semi-auto rounds get FL sized. If you have a bolt action rifle (and all the same rifle) you can neck size the brass. It works the brass less. It is suppose to increase accuracy. But an AR 15 needs to have a full length sizing.
Every AR i have Will run reliably with neck sizing only. I do not recommend it for ultimate reliability. In my BAR, and my 223 lapua match brass for my AR's only get neck sized the first two loading then full length. I do understand why people say not to do it but it works fine, and it gives you a little more capacity for powder after being fire formed.
Op the reason why people do things differently is just the same as with anything. Everyone has different styles, and ways to do things. It is really nothing more than that.
A lot of people use the lee fcd, because the length of your brass does not need to be exactly the same length. In a standard crimp die if a case is longer than the one you set it up with it can crush the case. Lee also claims the die adds a cannelure as it crimps the case. They also claim the style of crimp it applies is better than your standard taper/roll crimp.
I did not look at the forster die you linked, but if it is the micrometer bench rest seater it is great. It can be uses on a progressive unlike rcbs competition seater. The only drawback is you are not supposed to use it for compressed loads. They are one of the best seater you can buy.
Just because you are shooting under 300 is no reason not to buy a micrometer die. If they were available for every caliber i loaded i would have them. One of the nice things about them is you can record the setting for future sessions. Some are happy with there ammo as long as it goes bang, and hit the target. Others like to have the best they can afford to squeeze all the precision they can out of there ammo. To each his own. Figure out which camp you are in, and purchase accordingly.
The recommendation for a die for decapping mil cases is not a bad idea. They are cheap, and its nice to decap before you tumble. I do not have a dillon, but Will soon so i Will let others help you with the dillon questions.
The way I understand it, the expander ball stretches the case when its drawn back through. This makes trimming necessary more often. Removing the expander eliminates that hassle. However, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, its the expander ball that will smooth out dents in the case mouth. So if you have cases with dented mouths, you need the expander.
I've been using a Dillon .223 carbide sizing die to decap and resize about 2k military cases so far, no concerns there. This is how I've been processing once fired brass:
1. Tumble then sort by headstamp
2. Lube/resize/decap
3. Trim with WFT, no deburring necessary IMO
4. Ream primer pocket with Hornady tool.
That's it. I will probably tumble again before loading but otherwise the cases are ready to go.
I plan on priming on my 550b, seems like the most logical choice.
Right, no powder check for the 550b. Random sample is the way to go. You'll have to develop your own quality assurance procedures. I'm thinking initially I'll pull a random 10 from every hundred and check them. If you're a real quality nerd, you can maintain a run chart in excel and calculate confidence intervals and Cpk values and all that stuff.
I'm using a Lee factory crimp die. It gets good reviews and it seems like a better design from a mechanical standpoint. Its also cheap so don't worry about getting one to supplement a Dillon die set. Lee says their FCD can form a cannelure in your bullet, they're not kidding! Its the way to go as far as I'm concerned.
The nuances and preferences of different people are confusing for sure. I think you just have to try different things until you settle into system you like.
Seating precision of micrometer stem is only noticeable for beyond 300. Get it if you want but much more expense
The micrometer is for being able to set the die with ease for people who load lot of bullets in the same caliber. The micrometer has nothing to do with the accuracy of the seating. It is so the depth is able to be repeated just by dialing it up. The accuracy of that die is by the design. It has a sleeve that aligns the bullet as it is seating it to prevent run out.
You do not need to shoot more than 300 yards to notice the accuracy of a bullet seated in the die. If a die seats a bullet with less run out You do not need to shoot 300 yards to see the difference in accuracy.
OK, Yes, I will probably be experimenting with some different bullets. This will be for semi-auto so it sounds like the Lee FCD would be a good choice.
jstone - yes that is the same die you described. It's the bench rest seater with a micro on top.
so it sounds like I can't go wrong with..
Dillon Universal Decapper - on SS Press
then on 550B
Dillon FL size
Dillon Powder
Forster Bench Rest Micro
Lee Factory Crimp
It also sounds like I will need to use a FL size at least for first run and maybe just do it all the time. If not I can switch in a neck sizer only or maybe one of those RCBS X dies ( which I don't fully understand yet )
That RCBS powder measure with micro looks nice. I would have to devote that to the single stage though.
Thanks for the answers. I was not aware of some of the things these dies were actually doing.
I prefer the Redding Competition bushing dies, and yes, that micrometer seating adjustment is super convenient. The alignment sleeve keeps the bullet straight as it's seated, and that is important for accurate ammunition. Accurate ammunition should be the goal regardless of range.
OK, Yes, I will probably be experimenting with some different bullets. This will be for semi-auto so it sounds like the Lee FCD would be a good choice.
jstone - yes that is the same die you described. It's the bench rest seater with a micro on top.
so it sounds like I can't go wrong with..
Dillon Universal Decapper - on SS Press
then on 550B
Dillon FL size
Dillon Powder
Forster Bench Rest Micro
Lee Factory Crimp
It also sounds like I will need to use a FL size at least for first run and maybe just do it all the time. If not I can switch in a neck sizer only or maybe one of those RCBS X dies ( which I don't fully understand yet )
That RCBS powder measure with micro looks nice. I would have to devote that to the single stage though.
Thanks for the answers. I was not aware of some of the things these dies were actually doing.
I neck size only for my lapua brass, and that is only twice then it is full length sized. I do it for target ammo only. If a round does not chamber(which has not happened yet) i break it down to re size. I do not recommend it, because it can cause problems. If you set up your dies to bump the shoulder back a minimal amount you won't have any problems.
I try a lot of things some might not. Like sizing without the decapping stem (markm does this as well) to prevent the neck from having run out. I have been loading for a while and everything i do works 100% for me, but that does not mean it Will work for everyone.
The fcd is a nice die i have one. I bought it years ago, and i do not use it. If you have enough neck tension you do not need to crimp. I only crimp 30-30, 38spcl, and pistol rounds that headspace off the case mouth. The cartridges that headspace off the mouth like 9mm only get crimps just enough to remove the flare.
The way the uniflo is setup you should be able to use the micrometer stem on your progressive. The case activated drop puts it up pretty high so the stem should not interfere with the top of the dies.
What jstor said is exactly right. Accurate ammo should be the goal regardless of range. The dies he is talking about are real nice. Reddings has a micrometer seating die that is the same as forsters.
The x die is not that great it does not keep the brass from growing it just slows growth. You are supposed to trim .020 off of saami max, and the brass should not get to saami max before you trash the brass. So for 223 you trim to 1.740 to start, and your brass should be bad before you get to 1.760 in length. I trim everytime i load to keep everything the same.
The x die is not that great it does not keep the brass from growing it just slows growth. You are supposed to trim .020 off of saami max, and the brass should not get to saami max before you trash the brass. So for 223 you trim to 1.740 to start, and your brass should be bad before you get to 1.760 in length. I trim everytime i load to keep everything the same.
How many reloads did you get with the xdie? I do not find it lengthening at all. I i initial trim to 1.750" and it stays there. So far I have only 4 reloads on the brass I've used the Xdie on but it is still 1.750". On cases I do not resize with rhe Xdie I find them to lengthen on average 0.003" per resize.
At what reload count did you find cases lengthening beyond your trim length?
Cutting to size sucks. On any rig, its the worst part of reloading. I use a Lee size/decapper, measure each piece and only trim those over 1.76. Pay attention to your loads, a way hot load may not be any more accurate than a more modest loading and is much easier on your bass. I find that my brass doesn't grow much and the cases can have a easy 4-6 loadings. The brass gets trashed for other reasons.
Some of you guys may gasp :secret: but I'm not trimming brass that's 1.7675. .0075 isn't a problem in all 4 of my chambers and if I miss, its not because of case length.
Sorry for any thread jack.
If you have a progressive, why are you using your SS press?
Get a second tool head, decap, size/trim (Dillon RT1200), and Xdie neck expander on first pass.
What and how you deal with military crimp is up to you. Its a pain in the ass, and I tired three different methods until I landed on this - I use a Hornady primer pocket reamer in my drill press with a custom case clamp bolted to my press deck. I can ream primer pockets as fast as running them through my progressive and it only cost me $59 (Harbor Freight drill press).
Second pass (after tumbling off lube), decap again to make sure the flash hole is clear, prime, powder, seat and crimp.
As far as match grade - I don't pretend to know all the nuances and get into the matching brass, etc. Powder, COAL, and crimp being consistent as possible is good enough for all but professional shooters.
My gunsmith who also does custom reloading tested some Federal Match ammo, and found they were +/- .4gr on the powder. When he called them to see WTF, they told him that .4gr was within their spec for their match ammo. His bulk reloading does not go out the door with more than .2gr variance, and his match ammo is exactly that. Bullet, case, powder....
On my Lee LoadMaster, I get +/- .1gr on my powder drops, and +/- .002 on my COAL. I don't measure my crimps, so I assume that they are consistent as well.
I load in batches of 200 (1 primer tray full) random sample for overall weight and length. Any anomalies, I check every single round.
Then I do another verification of my powder (10 drops weighed, divide by 10 - right where it is supposed to be 23.4gr) and start on the next lot.
My M193 reloads out of my Centurion 16" LW are getting 1.4 MOA when I do my part, and that's prone off the mag.
MK262 reloads for my Mk12ish build coming soon.
Thanks guys, more good info, I will read a bit more that powder measure. I was under the impression it would have to connect to the Dillon in some similar fashion as the Dillon measure, but apparently the case adapter takes care of all that.
@Sticks... I'm still planning so I don't have to use the SS press. I was just mentioning it. I have spare tool heads. I'm just trying to select my parts. If it turns out it's easier to set up on the 550 that's fine too.
I get about a .2gr variance on my Bullseye powder I use for .45. That's why I was interested in that RCBS measure with the micro.
So I actually have a dual interest in that measure, If it works better than a Dillon, I might want one for my .45 as well and move my Dillon measure to my 9mm tool head permanently as I'm not overly concerned with my 9mm at this time.
The Dillon powder measures work extremely well. Don't invest in another measure (if using a Dillon loader) until you give them a try. I get +/- 0.15 grains with TAC (for .223) and Benchmark (a small grain extruded for .308), and generally +/- 0.1 gr with WW Supertarget (my .45 ACP powder). Consistency on the charging handle is important along with getting the measure settled before starting.
Varget will "mostly" run +/- 0.2ish grains, but then swing some as much as 0.5 off. Maybe more if you measure enough samples.
Consistency on the charging handle is important
What exactly do you mean there. You mean the main handle/lever of the press?
I use 3.6gr Bulleseye and 145g FBSW in .45 and I noticed I am getting various charges and that I had a hard time adjusting that fine tuning bolt to actually get things to settle down. I never remember that happening in the past so I was thinking a newer measure might be in order.
I'm actually fine with Dillon parts but if there is something better I have no problem doing the mix and match either. that's why I'm asking before I spend the money.
Maybe my powder system just needs a good cleaning but it seems to look fine. I just have a hard time dialing things in.
The other thing is, never having worked with rifle brass, the whole concept of the neck/shoulder/case is new territory for me. I'm just used to flaring the case a bit, setting a bullet on and let 'er rip. I've had very good results with that. But this rifle stuff seems a lot more complicated and critical.
How many reloads did you get with the xdie? I do not find it lengthening at all. I i initial trim to 1.750" and it stays there. So far I have only 4 reloads on the brass I've used the Xdie on but it is still 1.750". On cases I do not resize with rhe Xdie I find them to lengthen on average 0.003" per resize.
At what reload count did you find cases lengthening beyond your trim length?
I noticed the case starting to grow after the second load. It was minimal. I also did not like the fact that it said to trim to 1.740. You may not be experiencing any growth due to your trim length. I quit using it when the brass got to 1.745 which happened on the 4th resize.
The guy who recommended it to me said his brass grows to a certain point then stops. That's why Im guessing you are not seeing any growth.
Just so I'm clear on this length of the case growth. When the case lengthens is it only the neck?
No, the whole case will stretch. That is why you'll start to see thinning of the case wall near the head.
I have Forster dies for my 223, FL and Micro-seater. RCBS crimp die
I have Dillon dies for .40/10mm and a Redding expander.
I love my Forster dies
What exactly do you mean there. You mean the main handle/lever of the press?
Correct. I should have said operating handle.
I've been very happy with my RCBS dies for sizing. I full length resize for everything, including my "more accurate" rounds for target/hunting use.
For bullet seating, I actually prefer the Lee hand press and Lee seating dies. I have a better feel during seating, especially when loading flat base bullets. I can stop before crushing a case.
Especially when first working up a good load I like the ease of resetting the Lee seating die.
Or maybe I'm just cheap...
Are any of you familiar with this die?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/841910/forster-precision-plus-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings-223-remington
http://media.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/pdf/Chart_PDFs/bushing_bump_neck_sizing_die.pdf
This also allows for a sizing ball or not. I don't fully understand everything I'm reading about how this works..... just wondering if this would be a good choice.
I've decided on the
Lee FCD
Forester Micrometer Seating
Dillon Universal DeCapper
Not sure which powder measure I will go with but I do see Dillon now sells a complete adapter kit to use other measures. I may simply stick with Dillon though. But that's a side issue for now.
Any thoughts on that bushing die?
Are any of you familiar with this die?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/841910/forster-precision-plus-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings-223-remington
http://media.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/pdf/Chart_PDFs/bushing_bump_neck_sizing_die.pdf
This also allows for a sizing ball or not. I don't fully understand everything I'm reading about how this works..... just wondering if this would be a good choice.
I've decided on the
Lee FCD
Forester Micrometer Seating
Dillon Universal DeCapper
Not sure which powder measure I will go with but I do see Dillon now sells a complete adapter kit to use other measures. I may simply stick with Dillon though. But that's a side issue for now.
Any thoughts on that bushing die?
If loading for a .223 bolt gun, those bushing dies will probably work. You might want to add a Redding Body die to occasionally resize the body, the entire neck, and bump shoulder after several firings, when cases grow ever so slightly and chambering starts to get sluggish/tight. Sizing the entire neck is the important difference, that little unsized portion at the base of the neck of the linked Forster dies is what I'm talking about. Their instructions describe inserting the bushing "chamfer side down". As they depict in their diagrams, they show that there's a small unsized portion at the base of the neck.
If loading for an AR or any other semi-auto, I'd strongly recommend a FL sizer that sizes the entire body, the shoulder, and the entire neck down to the shoulder junction. It's really much simpler to use a plain resizer and if you need to polish your expander down a couple of thousandth's it's easy enough with a grinder, some wet-dry sandpiper and finishing off with crocus cloth. Leaving any portion of the neck unsized just doesn't cut it for any semi-auto platform.
I've used mostly Lee dies for years with complete satisfaction. Their bullet seaters leave abit to be desired, so when I was in my experimentation phase, I purchased a Forster BR Seater. It was a definite improvement. I still think like most things, it depends on the luck of the draw. I've seen recommendations for all mfg's, and each is capable of producing great dies, but occasionally a mfg will let a sub-standard one slip out the door. But in reality, Lee, Horn, RCBS, Forster, Redding all are capable of producing excellent dies. Just get a FL sizer if loading for a semi-auto.
Any thoughts on that bushing die?
Poor choice for a gas gun. It does not appear to size the body (neck and shoulder bump only). You would then also need a body die. Maybe for a bench rest gun, but not for a gas gun.
A FL (standard or small base) RCBS sizer is all you need. A Redding FL sizer die with the carbide expander ball is nice, or the Dillon set if you plan to size in the progressive.
Start with basic stuff in exactly the way the progressive loader is designed to work. Experiment with the exotic later. [A precision barrel will get you a lot more than precision loading gear if your goal is accuracy.]
I have both a taper crimp die (set very light) and finally tried the LFCD. I prefer the old fashioned taper crimp (I bell the case mouth and some crimp is needed). I see slightly better accuracy with 77 grain loads in a Noveske SPR barrel with the taper crimp. I'm sure I would not notice any difference with 55 grain loads in a chrome lined barrel.
Ok, thanks guys, I may just go with the Dillon FL Carbide since it's going on a Dillon 550B. Yes this is for standard AR.
Ok, thanks guys, I may just go with the Dillon FL Carbide since it's going on a Dillon 550B. Yes this is for standard AR.
Great choice!!!
Ok, thanks guys, I may just go with the Dillon FL Carbide since it's going on a Dillon 550B. Yes this is for standard AR.
I'd recommed you go with Dillon's non-carbide version and save some $$. Dillon recommends the carbide version for commercial reloaders who load thousands of rounds, and it wears better than their regular steel resizer. But you still have to lube cases with the carbide die, just like regular dies. Unless you have production requirements that are off the chart, then you can get the same quality fom Dillon for less $$.
Oh really? I did not know that. No I don;t expect my production to be all that high.
Yes, the regular die is 1/3 the price.
I also had one other question. Everyone mentioned to get a case gage.
Dillon sells their model $26
or
A tool set made by Hornady named the L-N-L O.A.L. Gage, bullet comparator. It would be about $45.
Any idea if that is all that valuable. I'm thinking that beyond the dies on a progressive I'm not going to be able to alter too much so just get the basic Dillon gage.
So it looks like my shopping list is
Lee FCD
Dillon regular FL sizer
Forster Micro sizer
Dillon case gage
H322 powder
Wolf primers
SMK 69gr
WFT Case trimmer
Dillon Super Swage
So it looks like my shopping list is
Lee FCD
Dillon regular FL sizer
Forster Micro sizer
Dillon case gage
H322 powder
Wolf primers
SMK 69gr
WFT Case trimmer
Dillon Super Swage
This ain't good.... Someone else will be making ammo as good as me. :eek:
If you plan to shoot for the next 10 plus years, the Carbide dies are nice. Dillon case lube is mandatory no matter what Die you pick. Unfortunately I think you have to buy the DIE SET to get the carbide sizing die, but I still feel it's worth it.
They have the die either way.
Regular set - $67
Carbide set - $153
Regular FL die - $40
Carbide FL die - $122
I also had one other question. Everyone mentioned to get a case gage.
Dillon sells their model $26
or
A tool set made by Hornady named the L-N-L O.A.L. Gage, bullet comparator. It would be about $45.
The Case Gauge is mandatory (the Dillon version is fine). It's about as fool proof as you can get for setting up your sizer dies.
The Hornady cartridge shoulder HS tool is very handy, but not so much for just one AR. I bought one to get a handle on shoulder setback/expansion in my brass fired from 7.62 NATO chambers (SCAR 17 & FALs) Vs my .308 bolt gun.
The Hornady tool can give you false reading until you get some experience. A better than cheap set of calipers is needed as well.
Everything I was doing before I got the Hornady Case HS tool was verified as fine (7.62/.308 & 5.56/.223). I did back off my (already backed-off) .308 sizer die a little for my SCAR reloads:
My SCAR/FAL brass is now being set back .005" (+/- .0005") at the shoulder instead of .0075". The .0075" setting was the absolute minimum shoulder setback needed for this brass to chamber "no pressure" in my bolt gun. My SCAR 7.62x51 loads are no longer suitable for the bolt gun. No biggie for my purposes - I shoot the SCAR a lot and the bolt gun very little.
LoneWolfUSMC has a good series of reloading write-ups on You Tube and Snipers Hide (geared more for precesion bolt guns) - one includes the Hornady tool. (As a side note he always FL sizes - even for bolt guns.) IMO there is no reason not to FL size - especially for a tactical type firearm.
See the "Mail Call Mondays" #25 video:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3136083&page=6
OP, if you're going to use a WFT trimmer, you'll need to add a chamferring/deburring tool to your list. WFT has many favorable write-ups, but they will leave a case mouth that needs C/D separately.
Regarding the Horn HS gauge and bullet comparator tool, this could be more useful than just a Dillon case gauge. Each tool will allow you to verify your cases are properly resized, but only the Horn bullet comparator attachment will also allow you to seat bullets to a specific "jump to the rifling" seating depth.
In reality, if all you're reloading is 55 FMJ-77 grain BTHPs that are mag-length compatible, then it doesn't matter. For example, bullet mfg's that add cannelures to their bullets place the cannelure so that when utilized for seating, OAL on rounds come in at/very close to the proper OAL for that cartridge. If no cannelure, then you just seat bullets to the depths recorded in reloading manuals (2.20 for 55 FMJ and 2.50 (IIRC) for heavier match bullets designed for mag loading. The mag length of 2.60 is your constraint when seating heavier bullets -- you've got to back off a tad to allow them to run through a mag) and lightly crimp using your Lee FCD.
If you intend to shoot heavyish BTHPs (Horn A-Max 75/80, Berger, Sierra 80 grain, etc.) then you can benefit from including the bullet comparator, because jump to the rifling/lands with bullets this long requires tuning for max accuracy. Note that you'll also have to single-load these rounds, they'll be too long to feed from a mag. Admittedely, this is more applicable for a precision rig, but completely irrelevant if you are shooting a SD carbine where you would never consider these types of bullets.
OP, if you're going to use a WFT trimmer, you'll need to add a chamferring/deburring tool to your list. WFT has many favorable write-ups, but they will leave a case mouth that needs C/D separately.
Oh no, that sounds like an ordeal. I may actually have a manual C/D tool, I'll have to check. Otherwise I may have to build a little rig with a small low speed motor to spill the tools.
Oh no, that sounds like an ordeal. I may actually have a manual C/D tool, I'll have to check. Otherwise I may have to build a little rig with a small low speed motor to spill the tools.
Yes, in many cases a cordless drill/screwdriver is your friend when using some case prep tools.
Even if you have a C/D tool, all i've seen are two-sided with the C/D functions/cutters positioned 180 degrees apart. To utlize with a powererd drill, you have to purchase an adaptor that houses the C/D tool and secures it with a set screw, and has a stud on the outside of the adaptor body to interface with your drill. I'm not aware of any C/D tools that interface directly with a drill -- all I can think of require that extra adaptor.
Right, that's been my finding as well. I was thinking of maybe making a little rig with some means to hold and drive all three pieces at once from one motor.
Just a little box with the WFT, Cham, Dbur sticking up and a motor or drill under the bottom. Sort of like a tape deck situation. Just go from stage 1 to 2 to 3 and it's done.
They have those already... not sure if they're WFT compatible though.
Have you seen a link or picture I could take a look at?
I thought the WFT was supposed to be a good clean cut and tumbling afterwards would smooth things up nicely. But if I have to figure in C and D I need to decide how I'll do it. I don't think I'm going to like doing it manually.
Or you could just go with the Giraud trimmer which trims, chamfers and deburs simultaneously...and be done with it.
http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm
There's several variants of this type of thing from a few companies. This being the smaller of the units.
Hornady Trio
http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/products/reloading/beauty/case-prep-trio-inset.jpg
Gah...that Giraud is cool, but spendy! I think for that price I'll soldier along with a slower trimmer for a while...
Gah...that Giraud is cool, but spendy! I think for that price I'll soldier along with a slower trimmer for a while...
That's what I did for years. I didn't even trim for a long time... just sorted off the really long brass. Never had a problem.
The Giraud was a no-brainer when I added volume .308/7.62 to the mix. Well worth it if you really do a bunch of trimming.
If you use a slow trimmer that is the lathe style like the rcbs trim pro. You can get a 3way trimmer head. That way when your done with the trimming you do not have to chamfer and debur. Still nowhere as easy as a giraud, but it does make a tedious job a little easier. I will get the giraud as soon as i can. I have used one of my buddies i brought my brass over to trim a 1500 cases i was dreading. With the giraud it was amazingly easy. IMO it is the best volume trimmer out there the rt1200 is fast it just lacks the quality of the giraud.
That GRACEY (sp?) is on sale at Creedmor sports for like 279 shipped I think...
Supposed to be just about as good as the Giraud.
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Gracey_Power_Case_Trimmer_with_Motor.html
Oh nice, I've never seen that Hornady Trio before. Very similar to what I was thinking only vertical.
Yeah that Giraud is too pricey for me. I need to rethink some things to cut down on some costs. I wanted to buy some brass sorting strainers as well. Things are starting to add up.
I just looked in my supplies and have these old tools.
LE Wilson C/D tool
LE Wilson trimmer - no case holder
Lyman - primer pocket tool ( large and small )
Lee C/D tool
I can spend $15 for a LE Wilson case holder in .223 and do this all by hand in my spare time watching tv or spend a couple hundred and still have a lot of manual labor. I think I'm going full manual for now and maybe next year get better setup for trim/prep.
Is there any reason these style primer tools won't decrimp brass properly? Closest I can find to what I have.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/case-prep/primer-pocket-reamer.php
The cutter on mine looks almost like a Torx bit.
I've never used any of this stuff. My father used to load a little 22-250. I can tell the small primer tool has been used but I can't tell if it's the pocket cleaner tool or an actual crimp remover tool. Not sure why he would have been concerned with crimped 22-250.
Those should work well. Hornady makes a similar one but the handle is really small, the good thing about it is it can be chucked in a drill. Makes quick work of crimps. The Hornady tool is what I'm using based on markm's recommendation.
Is there any reason these style primer tools won't decrimp brass properly? Closest I can find to what I have.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/case-prep/primer-pocket-reamer.php
The cutter on mine looks almost like a Torx bit.
I'm using the WFT and it was giving me clean cuts for the first 2k or so and it now leaves a small bur on the case mouth. Its cutter is just a 5/16 end mill so its not hard or expensive to replace but mine still has plenty of life in it. IMO, for bulk ammo trim and debur isn't necessary. BT bullets have been seating fine and the Lee FCD smushes down any burs on the outside. You may not want to skip those steps of you're going for sub moa loads but I've had no problems so far.
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