View Full Version : New here and to AR's... just some questions
Hello Everyone,
I just recently bought a S&W MP15 and it is my first AR. I absolutely love it and it seems like i have picked up another addiction. I bought the rifle for a good price from a family friend (it was 100% new, the old guy bought it and never even shot it). As i have been researching and reading around various forums, i know its cheaper to just build your own rifle on what parts you think you will like; but sense i got the MP15 stock, i need some advice on upgrades.
So far i have added a Magpul CTR stock, Magpul ASAP, Magpul rear MBUS and an EOTech 512. I had a Magpul MOE handgaurd on it with a vertical grip and took it off because i didn't like how it felt after a few trips to the range... this leads me to my questions.
I have been looking around a quad rails and i was pretty set on UTG for a good priced, USA made rail. (Keep in mind, this is a range gun and possibly used for HD if my Glock and Walther run dry). As i read around more, i started seeing MI gen 2 pop up for lower prices/good quality rails. I would prefer the lower weight of the MI rail but the price on the UTG is hard to walk away from. My question is, for my situation, is it really worth spending the extra 60-70 bucks on the MI? Is the MI gen 2 drop in rail really a good rail? Or should i get the UTG and use the other money for ammo/other parts.
Any other advice for an AR noob would be appreciated too. I have no LE or military background. Just an average guy who likes knives and guns and got a good deal on an AR.
Thanks for your time! Look forward to learning more on the site.
-Thomas
You can't build a good rifle cheaper.
UTG=crap
The Bulldawg
11-02-12, 13:08
Hello Everyone,
I just recently bought a S&W MP15 and it is my first AR. I absolutely love it and it seems like i have picked up another addiction. I bought the rifle for a good price from a family friend (it was 100% new, the old guy bought it and never even shot it). As i have been researching and reading around various forums, i know its cheaper to just build your own rifle on what parts you think you will like; but sense i got the MP15 stock, i need some advice on upgrades.
So far i have added a Magpul CTR stock, Magpul ASAP, Magpul rear MBUS and an EOTech 512. I had a Magpul MOE handgaurd on it with a vertical grip and took it off because i didn't like how it felt after a few trips to the range... this leads me to my questions.
I have been looking around a quad rails and i was pretty set on UTG for a good priced, USA made rail. (Keep in mind, this is a range gun and possibly used for HD if my Glock and Walther run dry). As i read around more, i started seeing MI gen 2 pop up for lower prices/good quality rails. I would prefer the lower weight of the MI rail but the price on the UTG is hard to walk away from. My question is, for my situation, is it really worth spending the extra 60-70 bucks on the MI? Is the MI gen 2 drop in rail really a good rail? Or should i get the UTG and use the other money for ammo/other parts.
Any other advice for an AR noob would be appreciated too. I have no LE or military background. Just an average guy who likes knives and guns and got a good deal on an AR.
Thanks for your time! Look forward to learning more on the site.
-Thomas
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24397
Read this please. This site is great however you must have thick skin. Great place to learn about the platform. Welcome and just know that the guys here know there $hi?. I wish some one would of directed me and I would of kept my mouth shut . Read as much as you can and take that thing apart a few times....enjoy!!!!
You can't build a good rifle cheaper.
UTG=crap
Thank you for the response. May i ask why you say UTG is crap? Have you had first hand experience with it? Did it fail? Did it not fit right? If you replaced it...with what?
Thanks again
CrazyFingers
11-02-12, 13:15
You really need to read more. The brands you mention would be...acceptable...for a range toy, except you then added this:
and possibly used for HD
This means your plan for the firearm includes it being more than just a range toy. Before you whip out your credit card, ask yourself:
What do I really expect this rifle to do for me?
Will I ever call on it to defend my life or the life of my loved ones?
How upset will I be if the rifle fails in a critical situation because I bought cheap instead of smart?
If it's just a range toy, buy all the cheap Chinese gadgets you want to hang off of it, you certainly don't need anyone's advice from m4c.
If you have any greater expectations, spend some time reading the stickies and other threads. There is a wealth of information here that will actually save you money in the long run.
The Bulldawg
11-02-12, 13:15
Thank you for the response. May i ask why you say UTG is crap? Have you had first hand experience with it? Did it fail? Did it not fit right? If you replaced it...with what?
Thanks again
Trust bro.........search UTG on the search button up top.....
Go find a high-end rail, DD Omega, Larue, whatever.... Then hold them next to the UTG and you will understand.
I took off my Mako quad rail and my DD Omega, and it was very obvious.
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 13:16
UTG is crap.
Don't waste your money.
If you plan on using that rifle for HD, dump the Eothingy.
Thanks everyone for the fast responses. I think just from the comments in the short time, im convinced UTG is not the right direction.
But what about MI?
The DD Omega seems like it would be my next choice if no MI.
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 13:36
Thanks everyone for the fast responses. I think just from the comments in the short time, im convinced UTG is not the right direction.
But what about MI?
The DD Omega seems like it would be my next choice if no MI.
I have used several DD rails. They are good quality rails.
Having said that, I'll have to ask why you want a rail? In my opinion, you would be better off saving the money on the rail, selling the Eothingy, and buying an Aimpoint. Unless you have a real need for a rail, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider that purchase. You don't need a rail to mount a light - there are several very good ways to mount lights without getting a rail...
Thanks everyone for the fast responses. I think just from the comments in the short time, im convinced UTG is not the right direction.
But what about MI?
The DD Omega seems like it would be my next choice if no MI.
The gen 2 MI's are decent. DD is awesome.
fallenromeo
11-02-12, 13:49
I would keep the Magpul MOE handguard before I ever put a UTG piece of garbage on my rifle. If you absolutely want a quad rail and feel you need it, look at the Centurion C4 rail. Strong, light, arguably the best quad rail there is and at a price similar to DD and Larue.
Never used a MI so I can't speak on them, but I have seen them popping up a bit more frequently lately and I haven't heard too many complaints.
Having said that, I'll have to ask why you want a rail? In my opinion, you would be better off saving the money on the rail, selling the Eothingy, and buying an Aimpoint. Unless you have a real need for a rail, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider that purchase. You don't need a rail to mount a light - there are several very good ways to mount lights without getting a rail...
The main reason i want a rail is to mount my vertical grip and mount a light down the road. I also think they make the rifle feel more solid and look better. I had the vertical grip mounted on the moe handgaurd and it was not solid feeling, there was a little movement.
On another note, why aimpoint over the eotech?
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 14:01
On another note, why aimpoint over the eotech?
They are pretty well known to have issues.
I just tried a quick search to provide you with some links, but when I put "eotech problems" into the search engine on this site, I got over 11 pages of hits....
Personally, I find that the dot in the Eotech is way to small for me to use. Maybe it is my eyes, I dunno... After using an Aimpoint, there is no way you could pay me to use an Eotech....
Think about dismissing the Smith before you sink anymore money in it...
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 14:10
Think about dismissing the Smith before you sink anymore money in it...
I wasn't even gonna go there......
But now that you mentioned it....
I wouldn't be sinking ANY money into that rifle. Since it apparently isn't from the M&P line, I would be hesitant to use it for anything but a range toy...
I wouldn't be sinking ANY money into that rifle. Since it apparently isn't from the M&P line, I would be hesitant to use it for anything but a range toy...
I dont understand what you mean by "not from the M&P line".
Do you mean since i bought it second hand?
CrazyFingers
11-02-12, 14:17
The main reason i want a rail is to mount my vertical grip and mount a light down the road.
You don't need a rail to do either.
I also think they make the rifle feel more solid
My Magpul vfg on my Magpul mid-length hand guard is pretty solid. Have you actually tried that combination?
and look better.
Ah, I see.
How important is how your rifle looks, versus how it performs?
You don't need a rail to do either.
My Magpul vfg on my Magpul mid-length hand guard is pretty solid. Have you actually tried that combination?
Ah, I see.
How important is how your rifle looks, versus how it performs?
He said that the magpul vert grip had movement that he didn't like.
NoveskeFan
11-02-12, 14:21
They are pretty well known to have issues.
I just tried a quick search to provide you with some links, but when I put "eotech problems" into the search engine on this site, I got over 11 pages of hits....
I just looked up "aimpoint problems" and got 20 pages... OP, UTG is a crappy rail. Eotech vs. Aimpoint is an endless debate. Your M&P will most likely be fine for your needs.
CrazyFingers
11-02-12, 14:24
He said that the magpul vert grip had movement that he didn't like.
Indeed, I missed that. Having never used them, how much more "solid" would a UTG/MI drop-in quad rail be than a Magpul hand guard?
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 14:35
I dont understand what you mean by "not from the M&P line".
Do you mean since i bought it second hand?
No.... I had no way of knowing if it was second hand or not, since you hadn't mentioned that.
What I mean is that Smith has two separate lines of ARs. One is good to go, the other isn't so much.....
The M&P line is good (spec wise, it looks good anyway.) The "Sport" line is, well, not so good......
So, is your carbine an M&P, or a Sport?
On another note, why aimpoint over the eotech?
That's an endless debate. Both are high quality sights with known plusses and minusses. Both companies sell to the US Military and Law Enforcement agencies. Each has its fans and detractors.
Delta Sierra doesn't like the small dot. I find that leads to more accurate shooting for me and I love my EOTech XPS2. Aimpoints are very good on battery life. The EOTech less so, mainly because the have a larger more involved display (Dot plus aiming ring on most models.)
Also, ignore his SW rant. You stated you bought an M&P15 in your original post. While not equal to a Colt or DD, S&W makes a good rifle. The M&P15Sport does leave off a few features in the interest of saving money, but nothing that would affect a target or HD rifle.
I do however, agree with the "No UTG" sentiment from just about everyone. I'm not sure where you got the UTG for a good priced, USA made rail idea, but almost everything from UTG is bottom-of-the-barrel chinese made junk. Pretty much no one here is willing to sift through all the UTG crap to find a possible gem, when good, US made gear is available for a little bit more.
DeltaSierra
11-02-12, 14:51
Also, ignore his SW rant. You stated you bought an M&P15 in your original post. While not equal to a Colt or DD, S&W makes a good rifle. The M&P15Sport does leave off a few features in the interest of saving money, but nothing that would affect a target or HD rifle.
Well, Genius....
The Sport is marked as an "MP15" as well....
So, saying that since his original post stated that is was an "MP15" doesn't mean a thing, since he could have purchased a Sport....
No.... I had no way of knowing if it was second hand or not, since you hadn't mentioned that.
What I mean is that Smith has two separate lines of ARs. One is good to go, the other isn't so much.....
The M&P line is good (spec wise, it looks good anyway.) The "Sport" line is, well, not so good......
So, is your carbine an M&P, or a Sport?
In my original post i mentioned that i bought it from a family friend, it was new. I also mentioned that it is the MP15. (if thats what your talking about). Here is the a link to the exact rifle i have, for info
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765651_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
polymorpheous
11-02-12, 16:05
I will make this really simple for you OP.
Any accessories you may be thinking on purchasing, go to gandrtactical.com or bravocompanyusa.com to see if they carry it.
Neither outfit sells Chinese junk.
As far as the EOtech vs. Aimpoint debate...
Pat Rogers says he sees far more EOtechs go down in his classes than Aimpoints.
Larry Vickers stated if you aren't using an Aimpoint, you're smoking crack.
Who's gonna argue with them on it?
Before spending an assload on your rifle, I would suggest you buy a case of ammo, preferably 5.56 pressure ammo, and run it hard through a professionally run training class.
You will find out really damned quick the things that you need as opposed to the things that you want.
I do however, agree with the "No UTG" sentiment from just about everyone. I'm not sure where you got the UTG for a good priced, USA made rail idea, but almost everything from UTG is bottom-of-the-barrel chinese made junk. Pretty much no one here is willing to sift through all the UTG crap to find a possible gem, when good, US made gear is available for a little bit more.
Im pretty sure the new models of the UTG rail are made in the USA. Correct me if im wrong though.
The gen 2 MI's are decent. DD is awesome.
I own a second gen MI rail. It's a 12" SS series one piece free float handguard. So it's not a quad. Mine weighs 9.3 oz. The carbine length only weighs 7.1 oz. I really like it and if you want to add a rail it comes with a couple.
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=450
Did I say UTG was crap?
I will make this really simple for you OP,
Before spending an assload on your rifle, I would suggest you buy a case of ammo, preferably 5.56 pressure ammo, and run it hard through a professionally run training class.
You will find out really damned quick the things that you need as opposed to the things that you want.
And give you some street cred on the site :D
Well, Genius....
The Sport is marked as an "MP15" as well....
So, saying that since his original post stated that is was an "MP15" doesn't mean a thing, since he could have purchased a Sport....
Well, other than lacking a dust cover and forward assist, neither of which affects the use of a rifle in the HD role, the Sport is made to the same standards as the rest of the S&W line. Not top quality, like Colt, BCM, or DD (all of which I own,) but much better than Stag, DPMS, Bushy, Oly, Windham, etc.
OP, I am getting the impression that you want a quad style rail but do not want to put out a ton of cash in the process....
First, take the advice of EVERYONE who has posted thus far....
UTG is crap!!!!
If you want to get a quality rail at a cheaper price, try to find a Knight's Armament two piece rail (that is not a copy). They are all over the place. I was at a gun show and they were selling them for like $80! They were not fakes!
As for your rifle, the main issue with the M&P is that the barrel is not mil spec and the bolt is a semi auto bolt. You have a rifle that is a little over gassed and an out of spec chamber. This will all be covered if you read the stickies in the AR technical forum.
There may be some things that you will not want to hear from members here about your rifle but please remember this WE ARE ALL HERE TO HELP. You can not put a price on a rifle, handgun or shotgun that will be used to save your life. You should demand the best! Take some time to save the extra cash to buy what is proven kit. Don't ever skimp on equipment that may one day save you or a loved one's life. Good luck and welcome to M4C.
On another note, why aimpoint over the eotech?
I have an Aimpoint ML2 and love it. Holds zero, waterproof/fog proof, and for fun I drove over it with my Jeep to see if it would break. A little scratched, but still running strong. I have since added a rubber cover and can't even see the scratches.
cthompson36
11-22-12, 18:17
If you like your etoech, keep it. it's mostly a preference debate. The rail you don't want to come off it it gets banged around, so it's a good idea to get a good one. expect to spend atleast 150 on it. MI is a good choice, I have a YHM on mine, and it was cheap, but works for what I need it to. The rifle should hold up fine, just use it a fair ammount before you trust it.
polymorpheous
11-22-12, 19:06
I have an Aimpoint ML2 and love it. Holds zero, waterproof/fog proof, and for fun I drove over it with my Jeep to see if it would break. A little scratched, but still running strong. I have since added a rubber cover and can't even see the scratches.
Not sure if this is a serious post.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-22-12, 19:20
I have an Aimpoint ML2 and love it. Holds zero, waterproof/fog proof, and for fun I drove over it with my Jeep to see if it would break. A little scratched, but still running strong. I have since added a rubber cover and can't even see the scratches.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o81/gamecockslayer/a9670105_Not-sure-if-serious.jpg
If you want to get a quality rail at a cheaper price, try to find a Knight's Armament two piece rail (that is not a copy). They are all over the place. I was at a gun show and they were selling them for like $80! They were not fakes!.
what? Why do I never find deals like that? I'd buy one of those in a hearbeat for that price... :(
JoeSixPack
11-22-12, 20:09
I've been through a lot of rails including the MI Gen 2 FF before finally settling on what I think is the best (but not the most expensive) rail you can buy:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116029
FWIW, the M&P Sport has a 5.56 NATO chamber. However it does have a 1:8 5R barrel made of 4140. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing overall. (Just like some of you run 1:9s anyway).
I briefly owned/had one in my possession. We shot a small amount (100rds) of M193 5.56 ammo through it without any issues or signs of over-pressure.
The rifle comes with a mil-spec receiver extension and the bolt is HP marked. (Didn't see any MPI marks though). The inside of the carrier is chromed. I haven't checked if there is an o-ring in the extractor, but I still have the BCG, so I can look. Front sight base is F marked. Fit and finish is quite decent actually.
The stock it comes with sucks, but no one is surprised about that. The handguards do not include heat shields.
I think this rifle whips its closest competition such as Del-Ton, DPMS, Bush/Windham, RRA, etc.
I'm not saying it's a DD either, but it appears to be a decent buy.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/%EF%BB%BF-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/
polydeuces
11-22-12, 21:06
You got the rifle for a good deal. Stay in the good deal zone.
Leave those standard hand-guard for what they are and run it.
Hard.
Buying a "quad"-rail is only useful if you have a clue what you need it for, otherwise it's just bullshit, something to slap on your rifle "because it looks cool and all the cool guys have it, so I should too", right?
Getting lost in a discussion about ant-****ing and what make sucks and what does not is pointless and does not answer the real issue at hand.
Use some of that idle time in the next day or so and read a lot on this here forum using that magic search button - learn from those that really know. You will see that (one of) the only thing to worry about is weight. Why add it if you don't need it.
This and other things you will find out taking a good class, as was suggested earlier.
So use the cash you saved already, plus more you're saving by following this advice, to buy lots of ammo, and then sign up for a good class - plenty of info can be found here as well on what that's all about.
Buying a bunch of shit without really KNOWING why and what works does not make sense, and most of the advice you've received so far fails to address this (save for precious few..)
The ONLY way you learn that is by taking a good class - starting with a more or less solid basic set-up like yours and find out from there what you may need to add - if anything - what works for you in your situation.
Hint - First thing i did after my first 3-day class was throw every DD-omega rail off every rifle. Excellent gear, but way overkill for me. Too much room for shit i did not need creating too much weight. They now sport either a Magpul MOE handguard (light, ergonomic, easy to adapt, strong and cheap), or Troy slick rails - totally awesome. For me.
.
In no order of importance - here's what I'd say you need to start off with:
-good sling;
-good RDS;
-then later on, a good light.
What is good? use SEARCH! Then see if this applies to you. We're all different.
Other than that - again - leave it as is, run it hard, see what breaks, if anything and what you need - if anything.
Good luck.
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