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jon308
11-02-12, 18:00
Iv got a couple of questions again, I have an older bushmaster m4 clone and a DPMS 308T, Ive had both rifles for about 6yrs. The dpms would fail to pick next rnd and lock open on empty. It was so tight I had to break open over my knee. I started using high speed axle grease instead of oil on it. It runs fine did trigger job on both. I dont get into many fire fights with them and zombies dont shoot back. But my question is why some sites are so open to trashing theese weapons. Is it the newer ones that are bad. Mine never fail to fire no matter what I put in them and both have good accuracy the ar15 at 100yd and dpms out to 200 thats all the room I have. I realize there are higher priced rifles but are theese really that bad.

Hmac
11-02-12, 19:49
Bad as what? Range toy? Plinker? Duty rifle? Self defense?

DPMS or Bushmaster might be suitable for some roles, unsuitable for others.

jon308
11-03-12, 08:29
Well the bush is ar15 its set up with red dot flashlight / laser also have quick connect 3x9 scope and co witness buis for red dot I use it as my home defense, camp,plinking rifle if shtf I plan on it. I use the dpms 308T for hunting, Target, shtf longer range rifle so I guess they are my go to rifles I have pistols, shotguns and a Rem 700. 300 mag for long distance. I dont have any high dollar rifles this is it, But alot of sites say these are inferior rifles and dont bet your life on them. So I guess Im asking why, as they have never given me a problem. Just wanting to know what to look for or sell them and buy one high dollar rifle. I dont think I need piston driven as I clean my stuff and take good care of it.

Hmac
11-03-12, 09:19
I know a guy that had a Yugo that never gave him a problem. Point being...anecdotes don't tell the story, especially if you don't push the rifle. The brands you mention are generally considered to be akin to buying a Chinese-import power drill from Harbor Freight. Might never give you a problem until you try to use it to build your new garage.

Accuracy is only a small part of the quality-AR equation. If you're looking at a quality, professional-grade rifle, you'd be better off looking at Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM, Noveske. Yes, you'll pay more. Just like you pay more for a Milwaukee drill than what you can buy at your local Unclaimed Freight store.

jon308
11-03-12, 09:38
I understand what your saying but in the beginning bushmaster was a good reputibale rifle when did it go the other way back then there was no larue, etc there was colt, armalite but theese other co were not there. so is it they were junk then or junk now. Are the older rifles better or should I sell and re buy, I guess that would be up to me to decide. Are you really comparing bushmaster to yugo, that dont sound good guess I better reconsider

Apricotshot
11-03-12, 10:03
Do you rememeber the most rounds you fired out of either in a 1-8 hour period?

robfromsc
11-03-12, 10:23
My head hurts now.

jon308
11-03-12, 11:26
well to be honest probally 200 at most out either one in a day. And for a battle situation that could be done in a few minutes and I see where youre comming from by not pushing the rifle far enough. Which in a shthf situation is not the time to find out. So what is recomended in a 7.62 If I spend that much would probally just go this route and skip 5.56 all together cant afford both if were talkin 3000.00 per gun just want what works and can bet my family's life on. Thanks response appreciated so who is the best and dependable My friend has socom but he has had issues with it he also has FAL or FL I dont remember which and it also seems finicky at times. What do the pro's use everyday

Blazer15
11-03-12, 11:42
My head hurts now.

Ditto

kmrtnsn
11-03-12, 12:03
I had the opportunity last year at a three day rifle course to assist (I have some limited utility as a human vice it seems) our very own Iraqgunz wrench a DPMS rifle back together for a young, enthusiastic teen shooter who had traveled a long distance to attend the course, so that he could get back into the training (big kudos to the teen and his very supportive parents). The upper was coming apart because DPMS thinks that using a set screw retained gas block is sufficient to retain handguards on said models. It isn't. It is a third rate method that clearly couldn't handle the 13-1500 rounds that had been fired through it at that point on T-3. The rifle had a couple of other issues and 'Gunz spent about thirty minutes on it getting back into firing order. You definitely get what you pay for. To quote a fine, delicate former female co-worker, "buy shit; eat shit".

RD62
11-03-12, 12:24
well to be honest probally 200 at most out either one in a day. And for a battle situation that could be done in a few minutes and I see where youre comming from by not pushing the rifle far enough. Which in a shthf situation is not the time to find out. So what is recomended in a 7.62 If I spend that much would probally just go this route and skip 5.56 all together cant afford both if were talkin 3000.00 per gun just want what works and can bet my family's life on. Thanks response appreciated so who is the best and dependable My friend has socom but he has had issues with it he also has FAL or FL I dont remember which and it also seems finicky at times. What do the pro's use everyday

Get a Colt sp901 and have both 7.62 and 5.56. If this new 7.62 offering is as robust and reliable as their standard 5.56 offerings it should more than meet your needs.

I prefer separate 7.62 and 5.56 weapons, but if I needed both and had to compromise this would undoubtedly be my choice.

jmnielsen
11-03-12, 12:27
I think to the avg Joe that won't abuse his rifle, and will only put at max few hundred rounds through it a year then a DPMS or Bushy is okay. I've got a couple friends that maybe put 200 rounds down range a year. One has a bushy, the other has a DPMS. No problems with either. But if you want to abUSE it, you need a higher quality weapon.

kmrtnsn
11-03-12, 12:42
I think to the avg Joe that won't abuse his rifle, and will only put at max few hundred rounds through it a year then a DPMS or Bushy is okay. I've got a couple friends that maybe put 200 rounds down range a year. One has a bushy, the other has a DPMS. No problems with either. But if you want to abUSE it, you need a higher quality weapon.

Shooting a couple thousand rounds over a long weekend is not "abuse", it is what most here at M4C consider to be regular "use".

jmnielsen
11-03-12, 13:50
Shooting a couple thousand rounds over a long weekend is not "abuse", it is what most here at M4C consider to be regular "use".

I know, hence the emphasis on USE in abUSE

C-grunt
11-03-12, 19:30
Jon308. Welcome to the forum.

First things first.... I think you should go find the "mission statement" of this website and you will see why we here demand the best. This website is dedicated to those in military, law enforcement, security and other individuals who view their AR/M4 as a fighting tool first and foremost. Many of us here depend on our rifles to defend ourselves and others.

Now that we have cleared that up let me tell you a story of my duty Bushmaster. I work for a large metropolitan police department that issues ARs to certain individuals who have shown that they can shoot well and make good tactical decisions.

A few years back we had a large shortage of rifles and a large shortage on cash to buy new ones. Thankfully a celebrity who grew up here donated the money to purchase the rifles that we needed. Unfortunately at the time the US was in a firearms panic and Colt was filling large government orders. Because of the lack of Colts available the department decided to buy a bunch of Bushmaster carbines. I got one of those rifles.

now to carry this rifle you have to pass a four day, 40 hour training course. During that course we fired over 3000 rounds, maybe up to 4000. On top of that I shot the rifle some on my own.

During that time my rifle broke 3 times. I had the safety break that ended up being replaced. I also had some parts in my lower break that killed my trigger. Third was the gas rings on my bolt breaking. The rifle has gone through two more sets of gas rings since then.

My rifle was not the only one either. During the 4 day class almost every Bushmaster went down for some reason or another. Parts breaking in the lower parts kit was a common problem.

We also have qualification/training with the rifles every three months. One time the city was low on our normal ammo, I guess, and had us shooting M193 instaed of our normal Federal 55 grn 223. Half of the Bushmasters on the line malfunctioned with the 5.56 ammo. Several blew primers.

The armory guys have been in contact with Bushmaster to try and get some of these problems fixed. Bushmaster has made no effort to help us at all. The department is now considering options to trade these rifles and get Colts, at a loss.

By the way, the guys who have Colt 6920/6921s dont have these problems. Hell, I rarely see them have any problems at all. Even when I do its usually one of the older guns that they bought in the 90s. They have been replacing them and I havent seen a new Colt go down yet.

Our SWAT team a few years ago switched from Colt Commandos to POF rifles. Mostly because POF is local, has given tremendous customer service and gave us a great deal. The SWAT team was looking for new rifles as the Commandos were getting worn out. The armory guys told me some of those rifles had 70,000+ rounds through them.

Sorry for the long rant but that might give you an idea of why we spend the extra money for rifles made properly.

uncle money bags
11-03-12, 23:35
Grunt, your post is an example of absolute ****ing poetry. You have combined the essential elements of humility with real world experience and turned them into a first class teaching moment. My hat is off to you and i raise a glass in your honor.

jon308
11-04-12, 07:48
I do appreciate your explanation and I understand what your saying. Ive called my local gun shop and have them looking for a colt sp901 in 7.62, 308 also looking at LMT, larue,BCM are there any others you guys prefer. Are there things a guy can do to salvage a DPMS the Bush is ar-15 not real fond of that caliber anyway as was issued m-60 in the army and allways felt safer with it. I was never deployed but was at end of vietnam era. 1/72 - 1/75 the colts then were not very popular either lots of complaints, Is there a battle proven 7.62 out there and who has it. I considered the springfield socom my buddy has one, but he has had things go wrong with it. Thanks again and this is why I am asking questions on this forum I dont want bullshit I want the truth thanks to all for that. Jon

William B.
11-04-12, 09:15
I was never deployed but was at end of vietnam era. 1/72 - 1/75 the colts then were not very popular either lots of complaints...

Jon,

I have heard this from veterans of that era, too, but the Vietnam-era M16 problems were due to a variety of issues that were fixed 20-30 years ago. As an end-user of an issued Colt M4 and an owner of a Colt 6920 I can honestly tell you that these are top quality firearms. They have done everything that I have needed and blew all of the myths of AR15 and/or DI unreliability out of the water.

Take a look at the threads recommended in this link. They will give you a better understanding of what to look for and what goes into a quality AR15.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009

RD62
11-04-12, 14:16
Is there a battle proven 7.62 out there and who has it. I considered the springfield socom my buddy has one, but he has had things go wrong with it.

The only battle proven .308 AR platforms I am aware if are the KAC SR25 in use by the US military and the LMT MWS in use by both the Brits and Kiwis.

Of the two the LMT is less expensive and utilizes their monolithic platform allowing for easy changes between barrel styles, lengths, and calibers. As a result it is pretty easy to configure as a battle rifle with a .308 chrome lined barrel or as a more precision oriented rifle with stainless barrel in .308, .260Rem, 6.5CM, etc.

I own an MWS and am very pleased with it.

Recent manufactured Springfield Armory M1's no longer have the USGI parts that are prefered and the SOCOM is not well regarded here.

Will_Power
11-04-12, 16:44
Jon308. Welcome to the forum.

First things first.... I think you should go find the "mission statement" of this website and you will see why we here demand the best. This website is dedicated to those in military, law enforcement, security and other individuals who view their AR/M4 as a fighting tool first and foremost. Many of us here depend on our rifles to defend ourselves and others.

Now that we have cleared that up let me tell you a story of my duty Bushmaster. I work for a large metropolitan police department that issues ARs to certain individuals who have shown that they can shoot well and make good tactical decisions...

...Sorry for the long rant but that might give you an idea of why we spend the extra money for rifles made properly.

Very, very well said. I too often see military servicemen, veterans, and LEOs making their points on forums like these with an acerbic and/or patronizing tone.

You could have told the guy to sod off, but instead you took the time to relate your own professional experience in the matter while not talking down to the guy. Now, I'm not saying us non-military, non-law-enforcement folks should be treated with kid gloves (at all), but the measure of tact you wrote with should be an example.

Will_Power
11-04-12, 16:52
...Is there a battle proven 7.62 out there and who has it. I considered the springfield socom my buddy has one, but he has had things go wrong with it...

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with 7.62 in certain settings, but if your overwhelming reason to stick with it is out of a gut feeling or sentimentality, then I might take a step back and re-read up on the caliber debate.

But that's hardly the point here in this thread, while we're looking specifically at 7.62 NATO guns.

The common consensus I've picked up on with the M1A SOCOM is its 16" barrel, and that the 18" variety (Named the Scout model, I believe?) is by far and away much more reliable.

Even more so are M1/M-14's made by other manufacturers. Springfield can be a bit of a gamble, sometimes. Might be something to look into. Again, just passing on what I've read and heard from about the M1A - I don't have first hand experience with it.

On the whole, however, if you're looking for a real-world "battle proven" rifle, you might want to take a look at an FAL. Surplus kits are still out there, but you can buy a kit rifle for between $1000-1400 if you look. New from DSA runs about $2k.

They're about as reliable and battle proven as you're going to get.

The SCAR 17, FN's modern cousin to the FAL, is really damn fantastic, as well. If you want one for SHTF insurance, it's relative newness might be a concern. Seems to be a fine firearm, but you never know where FN might be finding kinks to iron out.

And then there are the 7.62 NATO adaptions of the AK platform by Saiga and VEPR (who uses the heavy duty RPK light machine gun reciever). Also some options, again depending on your intended use.

jon308
11-04-12, 16:54
I fully agree with Will Power and am thankful hey, you can allways learn its what makes life worth living. And alot of guys would have told me off instead everyone was curtious and made their statements with substance and knowledge Thank you I have lots to learn and this helps a great deal. Thanks for your excperience and knowledge. Jon