View Full Version : 14.5 Inch Mid Length ARs.....Ammo Sensitive?
Gentlemen,
I realize that this might have been covered before so I tried to search for a similar thread. However, I was not able to find anything directly on point after my brief search.
My question is whether 14.5 inch mid length ARs are ammo sensitive. That is, would I be able to run full 5.56 NATO ammo as well as quality .223 ammo (PMC and Federal)?
Thank you.
crazymailman
11-02-12, 20:44
Mine has not been ammo sensitive at all. I have a DD 14.5 midlength, with H buffer, that has been 100% with everything from M855 to Tula.
Gentlemen,
I realize that this might have been covered before so I tried to search for a similar thread. However, I was not able to find anything directly on point after my brief search.
My question is whether 14.5 inch mid length ARs are ammo sensitive. That is, would I be able to run full 5.56 NATO ammo as well as quality .223 ammo (PMC and Federal)?
Thank you.
First problem with the middy gas system: No standard gas port size
Second problem: Dwell time is less with a 14.5" barrel
So to answer your question, yes SOME middy gassed 14.5" barrels CAN be ammo sensitive. I am of the opinion that many companies over gas these barrels so that they don't have any short stroking problems. Then you are basically shooting a carbine gas system (which would actually be softer shooting).
Personally, I would go with a 16" Middy gassed barrel (from BCM, Noveske, etc) and so that I could shoot whatever ammo I want.
C4
I just got back from shooting a brand new BCM 14.5" mid that i just got together last friday. I shot about 100 rnds of mixed ammo, fed .223 55gr/62gr reloads/win5.56 and didn't have any malfunctions.. Using a carbine buffer as well, only because it came with the daniel defense tube. I plan on buying an H buffer, because its what bcm recommends for NATO stuff.
Biggest issue I have seen is people trying to run 14.5" Middys with H1-H3 buffers and weak ammo.
I haven't had any issues with my Noveske 14.5. It has happily eaten every brand of .223 and 5.56mm I have fed it.
My question is whether 14.5 inch mid length ARs are ammo sensitive.
From what company? Its like asking if sports cars are reliable...
No concern at all with any of mine, but I don't have any "budget" or junk carbines either.
Grant and Stickman nailed it. It depends on the company. If you get a reputable barrel then you are good to go.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
11-02-12, 22:36
I've run over 5K rounds of Hornady TAP .223 in 75 gr. and 55 gr. as well as Federal M855 and M193 through my Centurion Arms C4 14.5" middy with no issues whatsoever running an H2 buffer and blue Sprinco spring.
m1a_scoutguy
11-02-12, 22:55
I have 2,,14.5 Inch BBL/setups and both have run great !!! One is a Daniel Defense 14.5 Government Profile BBL and the other is a Centurion LTW BBL,,both run Low Pro Gas blocks with battle Comps !! I have thousands of Rd's down the DD BBL and it has been near perfect,,any issue was mag related ! I have shot reloads,,,,Wolf/Tula Golden Tiger,(:rolleyes:) XM193 & just about every other type/kind of 223/556 ammo and it has been great !!! I only have about 1200 rds down the Centurion BBL,,put it together and the Golden Tiger would Not lock the bolt back for the 1st 100rds or so,,but after 150/200 rds it started running great with that and every other type I have put through it,,great setups in my eyes !! Also my DD has a Standard buffer. My centurion setup has a A1 Buffer & Stock !!
I have 2 bcm 14.5 mids. They have run from day one with low powered pmc. They both have not had a single malfunction, and lock back on empty. I put an h2 in one and it ran fine, but would occasionally not lock back on an empty mag. I also have a 16 inch midlength it will run with the h2, and never fail to lock the bolt back on an empty mag.
Like stickman, and iraqgunz said if you buy one buy it from a company that is known to produce reliable 14.5 mid lengths. From what i have read i believe bcm has done the most work to get there mid length system just right. I have shot some of my friends mid lengths and they just do not feel the same.
I do not know if it is just me, but the first time i shot my bcms the recoil impulse was so smooth. To me it was like the difference with 9 & 45. The carbine system was more of a jab, and the mid was more like a gentle push to the shoulder.
I have 2 14.5" middy's; one by BCM and one by DD. Both eat anything and have been perfectly reliable with carbine, H1, H2 and A5 buffers.
I own a BCM 14.5 mid-length and have experienced no ammo-related failures. I have only fired about 5000 rounds through it, though.
Mine used too- then I got retarded and started trying to adapt the A5 with enhanced carriers, every A5 buffer I could buy, etc. And now it will not cycle one round of anything "cheap." Like others have said- buy from a reputable company and shoot it in the configuration it arrives in. Have fun!
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BufordTJustice
11-03-12, 23:48
Stick with an H buffer or a Vltor A5 system with a standard Colt or Brownells CS rifle spring and you'll be fine.
I always advocate upgrading to a MacFarland single piece gas ring due to the better gas seal.
I have a thread in the technical forum that is exploring the limit of functionality with a BCM 14.5" middy.
I'm running an LMT enhanced carrier, MacFarland ring, Springco Extractor spring, and Vltor A5 system with the A5H3 (6.1 oz buffer) and the Springco Green spring (which is stronger than the std rifle spring).
I run Tula .223 55gr fmj even when dirty and it locks back on empty. Though I've eliminated a LOT of the internal friction of the gun by hand-polishing the bearing surfaces on the outside of the bolt carrier and the sides of the gas key. I also use liberal amounts of Slip 2K EWL.
There is no standard, but BCM pioneered the mass production of the format and is the only manufacturer to do cyclic rate tests on full-auto lowers that I know of. Noveske has also been building in much smaller numbers the Afghan 14.5" middy but they use a larger gas port than BCM.
If you stick with BCM, you'll be fine with an H buffer and plenty of good lube.
BufordTJustice
11-03-12, 23:58
Mine used too- then I got retarded and started trying to adapt the A5 with enhanced carriers, every A5 buffer I could buy, etc. And now it will not cycle one round of anything "cheap." Like others have said- buy from a reputable company and shoot it in the configuration it arrives in. Have fun!
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I feel partially responsible for the bullshit. :sad:
In fiddling some more, the polishing of the BC is VITAL to getting this craziness to work.
albertanhb
11-04-12, 00:32
Hey guys I have just ordered a dd mk18 in a 10.3 " barrel. Should I be concerned with the performance of this rig. When I served the shortest barrelled version we shot was a 16 " carbine version. So am I gonna have issues with performance on this rig. I bought it strictly as a cqb rig with shots limited to 300 yards with a red dot.
I have a 14.5" Midlength that I had assembled using a DD CHF barrel and Noveske BCG.
When I first took it out for function testing, I started with a carbine buffer and ran 100 rounds with no issues. Then, I tested it with a H buffer, ran 100 rounds and no issues there. Followed that up with a H2 and ran another 100 rounds no issues. Figured that set up was good to go and have left it that way for the past two years.
This rifle has been my primary rifle for the past two years and I've taken 3 carbine classes with it and haven't had a malfunction to date.
I mainly use PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ, Federal 5.56, 55gr FJM, and AE .223 55gr FMJ cause I typically buy in bulk and that's what I usually find deals on.
My next 14.5" Middy is going to be a BCM LW and I'm pretty confident it will treat me as good as the DD barreled Middy has this past two years.
Please post in the NFA area as this has nothing to do with this subject.
Hey guys I have just ordered a dd mk18 in a 10.3 " barrel. Should I be concerned with the performance of this rig. When I served the shortest barrelled version we shot was a 16 " carbine version. So am I gonna have issues with performance on this rig. I bought it strictly as a cqb rig with shots limited to 300 yards with a red dot.
What is the gas port size BCM or DD is using on the middy 14.5's
Mine used too- then I got retarded and started trying to adapt the A5 with enhanced carriers, every A5 buffer I could buy, etc. And now it will not cycle one round of anything "cheap."
What not put the originals back or downgrade rather than stay with something that isn't working as well as you hoped it would?
crusader377
11-04-12, 09:09
Gentlemen,
I realize that this might have been covered before so I tried to search for a similar thread. However, I was not able to find anything directly on point after my brief search.
My question is whether 14.5 inch mid length ARs are ammo sensitive. That is, would I be able to run full 5.56 NATO ammo as well as quality .223 ammo (PMC and Federal)?
Thank you.
Why not go with a 14.5 carbine instead. The 14.5 carbine gas with the standard H buffer is very ammo tolerant and will fire everything from full power 5.56 NATO down to the weakest reloads. Plus you don't have to buy a buffer collection to support your carbine.
I've owned four. One CMMG. Two Sabre Defence. One BCM. None have been ammo sensitive. All have had H buffers.
To give a couple more examples and echo what has already been stated:
- CMMG (likely overgassed) ran everything fine with a ST-T2 buffer
- BCM ran everything fine with an H buffer
(Both with BCM auto carriers and standard carbine action springs)
albertanhb
11-04-12, 10:29
They didn't have any 14" versions at the dealer up here so I had a choice between the 10.3 or a 16". So I ordered a Daniel Defence in a 10.3. It is the mk18. So I hope I won't have any problems with ammo.
Ha! It is your fault Buford!! It's cool though, and I will eventually default it back to its working state I just keep it to tweak. I mostly shoot my 6720 which cycles everything under the sun.
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GUNSLINGER733
11-04-12, 11:17
My bcm runs like a damn turbo diesel
Noodles McGee
11-04-12, 13:27
I have 2 bcm lw mid with 14.5 barrels.
Both have standard carbine springs and H buffers
I shoot mainly 223 tula. I had 1 fte with tula recently. Most likely needed lube.
Have shot a bit of 5.56 in it too.
I really can't complain. I'm quite happy with my setups
I have a Bravo Company Manufacturing 14.5" barrel with mid-length gas system and it has run perfectly on both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington, with standard carbine recoil springs and buffers from carbine to H3.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7205791210_d96152c9a3_b.jpg
Cameron
jonconsiglio
11-04-12, 14:18
Cameron, with that gorilla upper half you have, that rifle's just scared to not cycle whatever you feed it....
My BCM 14.5" runs strong, but choked a few times on Tula when I was out with Munch520. It could have been the mags or the mix of brass and steel though, I can't say for sure and wasn't too concerned about it. Other than those few rounds, the other six or seven thousand have been good.
jonconsiglio
11-04-12, 14:24
I have a thread in the technical forum that is exploring the limit of functionality with a BCM 14.5" middy.
I looked but can't find it, could you link that thread for me? Thanks.
I have a BCM EAG upper that would have issues with Tula/Armscor/etc for about the first 2-300 rounds; since then I have yet to encounter any further issues (rifle has about 3K rounds on it now). I fed it a steady diet of XM193 for the next 1K or so.
My main plinking/range round is PMC bronze and my bolt locks back 100% of the time; I use an H buffer and BCM carbine action spring.
I briefly had a BCM EAG upper and it functioned fine with American Eagle .223 with H and H2 buffers.
I couldn't even tell a difference between the buffers.
In case you missed my previous post, your situation has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I can assume that you have very little knowledge of the system and you could probably do some reading here.
If you have a question about your particular set up then post it in the NFA or Technical area.
They didn't have any 14" versions at the dealer up here so I had a choice between the 10.3 or a 16". So I ordered a Daniel Defence in a 10.3. It is the mk18. So I hope I won't have any problems with ammo.
BufordTJustice
11-04-12, 23:53
I looked but can't find it, could you link that thread for me? Thanks.
Here you go, Jon. :)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109353 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109353)
Last week when we went shooting I pulled my LMT enhanced carrier from my SBR and dropped it into my 16" carbine with the Vltor A5(H3) buffer and fired it using M855. It ran 100% with no issues.
My 14.5 Mid has had zero problems so far with anything I have fed it.
I have a Bravo Company Manufacturing 14.5" barrel with mid-length gas system and it has run perfectly on both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington, with standard carbine recoil springs and buffers from carbine to H3.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7205791210_d96152c9a3_b.jpg
Cameron
Uh no Cameron.
We'd rather see pics of how the 'better half's' middy shoots. ;)
-Jax
I'm running a BCM 14.5" middy with the standard spring it came with and a H2 buffer and have had no issues what so ever. I put about 3000 rounds down range and have used everything from Tula( very little of it) to m193 and it's ran perfectly.
Another BCM 14.5" Middy here. Standard spring and H buffer with no issues using even weak .223 ammo.
I'm back to running the Rifle Buffer and stock on mine. Had a bad gas tube which was causing short strokes, but it's humming along once again.
Moonlight Again
11-05-12, 11:49
snip
Personally, I would go with a 16" Middy gassed barrel (from BCM, Noveske, etc) and so that I could shoot whatever ammo I want.
C4
Grant:
Does this mean that for a 14.5" (or 14.7") barrel, you prefer the carbine gas system? Thanks.
i cant answer for anyone else. but can tell you that my 16" bcm middy has been chopped to 14.7" and it runs well across the board on all ammo (wolf, tula, what ever is cheap at the moment) even with an h2 buffer (haven't tried h3). haven't cleaned it in a while either. don't know if bcm uses a different size gas port between the 16" and 14.5" but what ever size the port of the 16" is.......its working well as a 14.7"..... very well. i plan on doing it again on next build.
My DD 14.5 LW w/ BC 1.5, H buffer, Sprinco blue spring eats whatever I have fed it from steel case to Black Hills. YMMV.
Grant:
Does this mean that for a 14.5" (or 14.7") barrel, you prefer the carbine gas system? Thanks.
Either really. Don't see many 14.7's.
I am not a fan of pinning a FH/MB in order to get a barrel to 16". Either buy an SBR (in 10.5-11.5-12.5) or buy a 16" gun.
C4
Moonlight Again
11-05-12, 23:03
Thanks, Grant.
Slightly off topic, but in the armorer course last week in Tucson I showed the class a 14.5" pinned and a 16". Once they realized what they were actually getting compared to all of the cons of doing it many realized that it wasn't so great.
Uh no Cameron.
We'd rather see pics of how the 'better half's' middy shoots. ;)
-Jax
Even with a midget holding it, the BCM 14.5" still runs without an issue. The ammo here is .223 commercial from Federal and you can see the nice little pile from consistent ejection at 4 o'clock.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7252/7818500566_d760ee97c6_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8305/7818499478_4e68f236da_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7119/7818554126_f2418c644b_c.jpg
Slightly off topic, but in the armorer course last week in Tucson I showed the class a 14.5" pinned and a 16". Once they realized what they were actually getting compared to all of the cons of doing it many realized that it wasn't so great.
I think Iraqgunz and Grant are right though, I probably wouldn't get another less that 16" that wasn't an SBR.
Cameron
Laughing out loud!
Thanks Cameron.
I think Iraqgunz and Grant are right though, I probably wouldn't get another less that 16" that wasn't an SBR.
I'm not sure if they mean that perming for a 14.5 barrel isn't worth it or that the middy isn't optimal on the 14.5.
My 14.5 middy is almost TOO MUCH of a good thing with the Z comp on it. It runs so smooth it's like I don't trust the Mo Fo yet.
I'm going to keep shooting the hell out of it to get a solid opinion one way or the other.
markm,
It was about the pinning, not the midlength.
I'm not sure if they mean that perming for a 14.5 barrel isn't worth it or that the middy isn't optimal on the 14.5.
My 14.5 middy is almost TOO MUCH of a good thing with the Z comp on it. It runs so smooth it's like I don't trust the Mo Fo yet.
I'm going to keep shooting the hell out of it to get a solid opinion one way or the other.
Agreed. Still need to get back out there and run that Zcomp. Time for a Gunz Sunrise shoot!:cool:
My point was about pinning too I just don't see the tiny difference in length worth any hassle.
Cameron
Moonlight Again
11-06-12, 14:40
I think you guys just saved me some money, and cost ADCO some.
albertanhb
11-17-12, 23:22
Thanks for all the information folks. I have talked with a few different people up here and they say the mk18 runs real good with no ammo issues but I'm still a little sceptical. I am going to be using this thing for 3 gunning and a 200 yard or less cqb platform for shtf situations. So if there is any issues I was going to opt for the 16" barrel version instead.
totenkopf_u64
11-18-12, 18:18
My BCM 14.5" Midlength with standard carbine spring and H buffer has had no problems with 5.56. That said, My buddy likes to "shoot up" all of his dubious .223 he has when we shoot his steel and there were two times in less than 150rds. of said ammo that the aforementioned rifle failed to lock back on good empty mags.
He was shooting from the bench so I thought maybe he had a dainty hold on the rifle? wishful thinking? Irrelevant? I'll stick to lake city 5.56.
I think you guys just saved me some money, and cost ADCO some.
I'd rather they be permitted to spend their time on more awesome stuff - some of pinned setups people build are just mind-bogglingly dumb.
Moonlight Again
11-18-12, 20:33
I'd rather they be permitted to spend their time on more awesome stuff - some of pinned setups people build are just mind-bogglingly dumb.
Hey, mister, I resemble that remark! (Semper fi, teuful.)
I have a 14.5 BCM mid upper that has had extreme ammo issues but is flawless with any 5.56 brass, best bud and training partner has almost the identical upper purchased at the same time, 0 issues ever. I think its rolling the dice, I would personally if I did it over again just gone with a 16" mid.
Bizzarolibe
11-19-12, 09:39
I have a Spikes "Elite" series upper with a 14.5" barrel and a mid-length gas system. It has cycled Wolf, MFS (basically Silver Bear), Tula, 3 different brands of M855, PRVI M193, and several brands of brass-cased .223 flawlessly. I mostly shoot PMC X-Tac M855 out of it however.
It is not over-gassed; ejection is right at 3:15 for the full-powered stuff, and closer to 4:30-5:00 for the weakest stuff. I run it with the ST-T2 buffer. It is my favorite rifle setup. It does handle noticeably different from my 16" rifles, at least for me.
I've got a BCM 14.5'' and I've fed it a anything and everything and I've had no issues with it. I intend to do the same with an 11.5'' from them as well.
My Bushy shoots anything I ask it to. I may just have to clean better after the dirty stuff.
I slapped a BCM 14.5" midlength upper with pinned flashider onto a stock Colt 6940 lower with the H buffer and it has run perfectly for over 2500 rounds of .223.
As already said, there seems to be a lot of variables between manufacturers and the specifics of the lowers, buffers, and springs that people put the upper on.
I run the ST-2 in my BCM 14.5 middy, runs flawlessly. Good luck.
Fiiyablade
11-23-12, 21:52
I think it really depends on what buffer you are using. My 16" midlength has a spikes stt2 buffer and can't run tula, but my 14.5 middy with an h2 can run anything i feed it.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a 14.5 BCM mid that used to function flawlessly but when I added the Vltor A5, included buffer, it began to become "sensitive." I tried to remedy the issue buy buying the two lightest weight A5 buffers, but that did not resolve the issue. Next, I tried a LMT enhanced carrier, again, no extraction. As Safetyhit mentioned, I decided to go back to square 1 and removed the A5, LMT Carrier, and went to H buffer and BCM BCG, which was its original config that had over 3k+ rounds of trouble free history. Oddly, the same issue occurred. No extraction on weak ammo (PMC) and feeding issues with better ammo like m193. It dented the cases while trying to chamber. I removed the notion of magazine by trying a few and then replaced lower completely with another. Im no armorer but checked the gas block for extra gas residue but really I have no idea what im looking at. Im going to contact BCM to see if maybe they will check it out -
Just updating my earlier post and will report back findings.
My BCM won't lock back a Rifle buffer with underpowered ammo. Locks back fine on decent .223 and full throttle 5.56 powered ammo.
I have a BCM14.5 with a pinned SF brake. I have been running it on a LMT lower with a H buffer and it has about 500 rounds without a malfunction. That is a mix of Fed 223, XM193, PP M193, PP 855. I had some malfunctions early on while running a SF Mini and a carbine buffer, but I switched to the H buffer and it has been all good.
All I can say is that thus far the weapons that I own with A5 tubes have been 100% reliable for thousands of rounds. I have tried various configurations ranging from 20" muskets to a 10" 300 BLK.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a 14.5 BCM mid that used to function flawlessly but when I added the Vltor A5, included buffer, it began to become "sensitive." I tried to remedy the issue buy buying the two lightest weight A5 buffers, but that did not resolve the issue. Next, I tried a LMT enhanced carrier, again, no extraction. As Safetyhit mentioned, I decided to go back to square 1 and removed the A5, LMT Carrier, and went to H buffer and BCM BCG, which was its original config that had over 3k+ rounds of trouble free history. Oddly, the same issue occurred. No extraction on weak ammo (PMC) and feeding issues with better ammo like m193. It dented the cases while trying to chamber. I removed the notion of magazine by trying a few and then replaced lower completely with another. Im no armorer but checked the gas block for extra gas residue but really I have no idea what im looking at. Im going to contact BCM to see if maybe they will check it out -
Just updating my earlier post and will report back findings.
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