View Full Version : Record Keeping for NFA's/Gunstore/Gov't
RogerinTPA
02-12-08, 21:44
This started in a different thread, but does anyone know how long the paper work is kept at gun stores, local and state level? I know here in FL, gun shop owners must get you cleared through Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement. If the Dems get to the Oval Office and they damn near outlaw guns and ammo, they may start down the road to outlawing them then confiscation. But as a CWP holder, I'm probably f@#k anyway.
Bottom line, I wanna know if I should start thinking about hiding my stash!
not to derail but to touch on one thing you mentioned. i had a conversation with a young police officer once about the government ordering police and military to start confiscation of our weapons. basically i think he felt uncomfortable afterwards to say the least. i personally believe our last line of defense against something like this isnt hiding them, but trusting our fellow citizens that serve the government just saying no. i cant imagine a gun confiscation would go off without allot of trouble in this country and would require outside help since i feel most of our military and public servants would just say no. i hope. i know this would be similar to police going on strike but if we're confiscating peoples weapons in THIS country, i think going on strike would be the least of your worries.
not to mention if a dem takes power they will likely downscale the military and wouldnt have resources to pull off something like that.
Bottom line, I wanna know if I should start thinking about hiding my stash!
This would be an ideal question to ask on TOS.
This started in a different thread, but does anyone know how long the paper work is kept at gun stores, local and state level? I know here in FL, gun shop owners must get you cleared through Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement. If the Dems get to the Oval Office and they damn near outlaw guns and ammo, they may start down the road to outlawing them then confiscation. But as a CWP holder, I'm probably f@#k anyway.
Bottom line, I wanna know if I should start thinking about hiding my stash!
I keep all records until I close my business and then I turn them over to the ATF (I believe that is how it works).
With that said, I don't think we will ever see a door to door confiscation. More likely, we will see something like what Australia and New Zealand saw. If you own a certain type weapon, you had to turn it in or face a large penalty and jail time. I think most gun owners (if faced with a $100K fine and 10yrs in jail, would turn their guns in as fast as they could).
Having worked intel for the Military/Govt for many years, if the "man" wants to know what you are doing, buying and or own, they will (without pulling up your form 1, form 4 or 4473). ;)
Just as a heads up for you, "they" are watching what you buy on EBAY, Gun Broker, EE's on various gun forums, etc, etc.
C4
Nathan_Bell
02-13-08, 08:50
I keep all records until I close my business and then I turn them over to the ATF (I believe that is how it works).
With that said, I don't think we will ever see a door to door confiscation. More likely, we will see something like what Australia and New Zealand saw. If you own a certain type weapon, you had to turn it in or face a large penalty and jail time. I think most gun owners (if faced with a $100K fine and 10yrs in jail, would turn their guns in as fast as they could).
Having worked intel for the Military/Govt for many years, if the "man" wants to know what you are doing, buying and or own, they will (without pulling up your form 1, form 4 or 4473). ;)
Just as a heads up for you, "they" are watching what you buy on EBAY, Gun Broker, EE's on various gun forums, etc, etc.
C4
Thats the truth, if Paypal can suspend my account for having their name in a listing on Gunbroker, an account that does not share my email, or contact information with my Paypal account for just mentioning the Paypal name in the listing. I would assume Uncle Sugar can track info like that down as well.
cactustactical
02-13-08, 10:03
BATFE regs require that all 4473's filled out for a purchase be held by the FFL as long as the FFL maintains a license. Once that license is surrendered, the 4473's are to be boxed up and sent to the BATFE. I imagine there is a huge warehouse somewhere holding millions of old 4473's moldering away.
As a license holder, he /she also has agreed to submit to unannounced on site inspections of inventory and records. So, if "they" are interested in what people have bought over the years, "they" can always do so.
Personal belief is that this is why some folks try so hard to close the "gun show loophole". Citizens can sell a weapon without government intervention and knowledge and it drives some folks crazy.
BATFE regs require that all 4473's filled out for a purchase be held by the FFL as long as the FFL maintains a license. Once that license is surrendered, the 4473's are to be boxed up and sent to the BATFE. I imagine there is a huge warehouse somewhere holding millions of old 4473's moldering away..
Can you cite that in the regs? Mine says 20 years. not that it matters much for me at this time....
4473s sent to BATFE are computerized.
cactustactical
02-13-08, 12:57
We had a site inspection a few months ago and upon question, the agent said that the 4473 forms had to be held as long as we held the license. Took her at her word.
Sure is a big pile of paper.
"They" can have them.Bullets first though.
JK;)
Nathan_Bell
02-13-08, 18:10
Can you cite that in the regs? Mine says 20 years. not that it matters much for me at this time....
4473s sent to BATFE are computerized.
I was told 20 years as well. Most guys that I know who have been dealers for a long time keep them all and plan on having a bury the ATF in paperwork day when they close their doors.
RogerinTPA
02-13-08, 20:13
This would be an ideal question to ask on TOS.
Not into A hole responses thanks...but you're more than welcome to repost this question over there if you get a bug...
RogerinTPA
02-13-08, 20:14
I was just curious about the record keeping requirements. Good info guys. Thanks for your input.
This would be an ideal question to ask on TOS.
with the words "Poll coming" addded to the title :D
Seriously though, I think you can assume anything except for an undocumented FTF sale/purchase (legal in Texas) will end up in a database in some .gov agancy.
LukeMacGillie
02-15-08, 11:14
I only plan on confiscating the ones I like. Currently plotting the names and addresses of all M134 owners. And BTWand dont let me catch you with any multicam, cause sure as the day is long it is going home with me..................
Ask a TOS question, get a TOS answer:D
OK here goes, if i need to ask i don't need to know, but really what is "TOS"? i know i know i,:confused: have my head up my a**. i have tried to figure it my self, now it is driving me crazy.
OK here goes, if i need to ask i don't need to know, but really what is "TOS"? i know i know i,:confused: have my head up my a**. i have tried to figure it my self, now it is driving me crazy.
TOS = The Other Site
C4
not to derail but to touch on one thing you mentioned. i had a conversation with a young police officer once about the government ordering police and military to start confiscation of our weapons. basically i think he felt uncomfortable afterwards to say the least. i personally believe our last line of defense against something like this isnt hiding them, but trusting our fellow citizens that serve the government just saying no. i cant imagine a gun confiscation would go off without allot of trouble in this country and would require outside help since i feel most of our military and public servants would just say no. i hope. i know this would be similar to police going on strike but if we're confiscating peoples weapons in THIS country, i think going on strike would be the least of your worries.
not to mention if a dem takes power they will likely downscale the military and wouldnt have resources to pull off something like that.
Perhaps the Nuremburg Defense is a real thing as demonstrated by Dr. Stanley Milgram. I wouldn't count on trusting the LEO/Military folks in those times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
C4IGrant, thank you, now i can sleep. D.............:)
OK here goes, if i need to ask i don't need to know, but really what is "TOS"? i know i know i,:confused: have my head up my a**. i have tried to figure it my self, now it is driving me crazy.
I wasn't sure either as a relative new comer, but ofter a little thought I fugured it out (at least I think I did).
TOS = That other Sight
I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Oops... seem someone beat me to it. I had a visitor and it took me to long to reply. oh, well It least I was correct.
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