Glock 21 gen4

[MP9]

Hi guys.

I've read many good reviews about the m&p45 and how well it manage the recoil..

I have a m&p9 which I have been kind of fighting the muzzle flip during rapid fire, despite it feel good in my hand. Sometimes I think I can manage better my g19 gen4 without so much effort and attention.

I like my m&p9 but I dont want to be struggling to get a proper grip/control during rapid fire.

So now I am thinking about getting a g21 gen4, and I would like hear some thoughts, it would be for home defense and idpa cdp sometimes. usually I see more people shooting the m&p45 at CDP..

[Psalms144.1]

My Gen4 G21 has been a flawless performer through several hundred rounds (low round count, but I don't have a ready stock of .45ACP like I do 9mm!). Recoil is very soft, and accuracy has been very good - not HK45 or custom 1911 good, but perfectly serviceable.

If the size of the pistol fits with your carry/HD needs, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Regards,

Kevin

[Swamprattler]

Would agree with Psalms above, the Gen 4 G21 is one of the most accurate and soft shooting 45's I have ever shot. The HK 45 or the HK 45c are also excellent choices and, so far, bomb proof. Good luck with your choice.

[ST911]

Agency users of the gen4 G21 report excellent results. Students on the line do well with them, identifying the soft horizontal recoil (push) of the gun/ammo as being very agreeable. It remains a big gun. The G21 family has a good history of working with a broad range of cartridges and bullet profiles.

[markm]

So glock hasn't screwed up the 45s like they did the 9mm?

Maybe that will be my next pistol... :confused:

[ST911]

So glock hasn't screwed up the 45s like they did the 9mm? Maybe that will be my next pistol... :confused:

Discussions on the 9mm matter are problematic at best, and the time is better spent acquiring those guns and shooting them.

I'd buy gen4 G21s if in the market for same.

[markm]

Yep.. I have one of those bad 9mms. I have a ton of 45 ammo and like full figured pistols.... :)

[Surf]

My Gen4 G21 has about 3500 rounds through it with great results. Granted a sampling of 1 pistol. Very good accuracy but my particular pistol does however shoot a bit high with the standard factory Glock U sights, which I have heard others complain about, however a sight swap can fix this. The Gen 4 without backstraps feels smaller than the SF version but I have not actually measured it. It also feels softer hitting in the recoil department. Overall I am more than pleased with it.

[KiloSierra]

It remains a big gun.

My department just went to them. With the small backstrap on my finger can barely touch the trigger in a firing grip. M&P45 no problem. H&K45 no problem. FNP-45 no problem. G21 big problem. On the other hand they have exhibited none of the reliability problems the Gen 4 G22's they replaced had.

[Sensei]

My department just went to them. With the small backstrap on my finger can barely touch the trigger in a firing grip. M&P45 no problem. H&K45 no problem. FNP-45 no problem. G21 big problem. On the other hand they have exhibited none of the reliability problems the Gen 4 G22's they replaced had.

I'm confused. Why are you using the blackstrap. Go bareback (frame only) and it should fit your hand better? It is about the same size as the SF models in this configuration.

[TAZ]

1+ to Sensei's comments. Go bareback and it should feel better in your hands.

As for the OP my gen 4 2- has run flawlessly out of the box for close to 2000 rds. Maybe more. I did get the updated RSA, but the original one that came with the gun worked fine.

As for recoil management, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the issue isn't the gun, but most likely technique. Most likely switching to the bigger grip and caliber are going to make it worse.

[C4IGrant]

Hi guys.

I've read many good reviews about the m&p45 and how well it manage the recoil..

I have a m&p9 which I have been kind of fighting the muzzle flip during rapid fire, despite it feel good in my hand. Sometimes I think I can manage better my g19 gen4 without so much effort and attention.

I like my m&p9 but I dont want to be struggling to get a proper grip/control during rapid fire.

So now I am thinking about getting a g21 gen4, and I would like hear some thoughts, it would be for home defense and idpa cdp sometimes. usually I see more people shooting the m&p45 at CDP..



The M&P 9mm has almost no muzzle flip so if you are struggling with this, you might need to get some pistol training.



C4

[brushy bill]

Necropsy thread...is the Gen 4 21 still generally free of the problems other Gen 4s encountered (primarily extraction/BTF)? I've read from Dr GKR and others Gen 4 21 generally GTG.

Considering picking up one of these, but purchased an M&P 9 not so long ago based on early feedback here and on Pistol Forum. No mention of accuracy issues in the platform, extraction issues, rusting, need for aftermarket trigger parts, etc., early on. These apparently cropped up later after the early rave reviews and outstanding initial accuracy even with old style barrel.

Similarly the ongoing Gen 3/4 issues in the Glock 17/19/26 made me want to double back and see if there is any current updates to the Gen 4 21 performance results...wound up putting extra cash into guns I had to make them run right (G&R Storm Lake fitted barrel, Apex extractors, etc) that I wouldn't have if I'd know there was a problem to begin with.

That said, I like the thought of a 21, but don't want to repeat same extra investments when I can just go with an H&K and avoid playing leggo guns. Thanks.

[jlw]

Hi guys.

I've read many good reviews about the m&p45 and how well it manage the recoil..

I have a m&p9 which I have been kind of fighting the muzzle flip during rapid fire, despite it feel good in my hand. Sometimes I think I can manage better my g19 gen4 without so much effort and attention.

I like my m&p9 but I dont want to be struggling to get a proper grip/control during rapid fire.

So now I am thinking about getting a g21 gen4, and I would like hear some thoughts, it would be for home defense and idpa cdp sometimes. usually I see more people shooting the m&p45 at CDP..

I just made master class in GSSF shooting a G19.

When I shoot the classifier for IDPA, I use my M&P45 across all three pistol divisions because I get better scores with it than I do my Glocks.

[twistedcomrade]

My Gen 4 G21 has been flawless for 400 rds. Ammo prices and availabilty have limited me to only 400 rds.

[brianc142]

The Gen 4 21 is still good to go as far as I know. I haven't heard any bad reports. I have one and I have no plans to get rid of it. I also ad an M&P 45 that I sold. I regret selling it as it was very nice as well. Both are soft shooting and accurate.

[greenlion]

With the small backstrap on my finger can barely touch the trigger in a firing grip.

I may be misreading you, but if you have a backstrap on, then that is your problem. The "Small" backstrap is simply the naked frame with no backstrap on.

[Voodoo_Man]

I have a gen3 and gen4 G21, both have been my duty guns at one point.

Both are about the most reliable gun I have ever owned.

[Maineshooter]

I recently went to a gen 4 21 so I only have about six hundred rounds through it. It has been flawless and I thought I noticed a slight reduction in recoil over the Gen 3. The Gen 3 I recently retired was put through the paces - muck, water and dirt in one high round count class - with zero issues. It's a very common duty weapon in northern Maine, where the 9mm seems almost extinct and the .45 has steadily grown in favor over the .40.

[KiloSierra]

I may be misreading you, but if you have a backstrap on, then that is your problem. The "Small" backstrap is simply the naked frame with no backstrap on.

At the time I didn't realize that the small backstrap was integral and assumed it was add on like on other guns and never closely examined the gun. But my department only has three or four officer's running anything other then the integral backstrap and I tried the integral backstrap and the medium one which is the only other one used. The medium moves my hand down enough that my finger's not wrapping around the frame above the trigger to reach it but also move's it back far enough that the tip of my finger barely touches the front of the trigger so regardless of integral "small" backstrap or add on "medium" I'm in the same boat regarding pulling the trigger.

We've also qualified since and almost every single officer's score's were significantly lower with the G21 then the previous G22's and G35's. We had officer's that previously qualified on the first try with good scores try shooting five or six times to just barely qualify. Partially it's the result of lack of training with the new G21's but a significant part of it is the G21 is simply too big for a lot of the officer's at my department.

[JonInWA]

Interesting-I've found that on my Gen 3 G21 may hand displaces differently than on my smaller-framed G17/19/34s, but I actually have a great instinctive/natural index with the larger gun, achieving an immediate sight alignment on draw. Finger/trigger placement is not an issue on my large(r) Gen 3 G21. To the best of my knowledge, I possess "normal" sized hands/fingers.

If you have smaller hands/shorter fingers, I'll certainly conceed that the G21 (Gen4 or otherwise) simply might not be the best, or even an acceptable duty gun for you (and/or others). Fortunately, for most that's not a problem-and even less so with Gen 3 SF and Gen4 variants/options. But I'd first determine if it's a discomfort (which will adjust itself out with repeated use) with the difference in frame size compared to what you were previously used to/comfortable with, or a genuine ergonomic issue affecting operational use.

Best, Jon

[KiloSierra]

I have oddly proportioned hands. Slightly larger then average palms with short to really short fingers. Around half the department has hands smaller then mine. A couple have much smaller hands

[davebee456]

My department just went to them. With the small backstrap on my finger can barely touch the trigger in a firing grip. M&P45 no problem. H&K45 no problem. FNP-45 no problem. G21 big problem. On the other hand they have exhibited none of the reliability problems the Gen 4 G22's they replaced had.

Just curious what kind of problems did the GEN4 G22's Have ?
I wanted to get on with my GSSF Coupon---

[JonInWA]

I have oddly proportioned hands. Slightly larger then average palms with short to really short fingers. Around half the department has hands smaller then mine. A couple have much smaller hands

Then you might want to discuss with your department armorer/command/union rep about your department initiating alternative handgun(s) for those affected, if in fact there are not current alternative selections; if your numbers are correct, it sounds to me like you're inferring that over half or more of your department has ergonomic/fit/index issues with the issued G21 Gen4.

What's also interesting to me is that you stipulated that departmental qualification scores went down after conversion to the G21, from previous scores when you utilized Glock G22 and G35 in .40; the exact reverse was true with the Arkansas State Park Rangers in the 2009 timeframe when they converted from the G23 and G27 to the Gen 3 G21 SF; they cited the softer recoil of the .45 ACP cartridge to that of the .40 S&W as the main reason (also of note is that they were previously using the compact G23 and subcompact G27 in .40, and you and your department were using full-size G22 and G35, which significantly amelioriate the recoil effect of the .40 cartridge).

How large is your department, and were you given a chance to provide input regarding the selection of the G21 Gen4? Again, I'm a bit surprised that command would select a gun that seemingly provides such de facto issues to half of its sworn officers.

Best, Jon

[jlw]

We have standard issue firearms, but we also allow personal carry to some degree. We have only had two people adopt the Glock .45 ACP pistols, and both of those chose the G30. The 21, even in the SF variety, is simply too big for many.

A neighboring agency is looking at adopting the Gen4 21 as their standard issue. I'll try to track their numbers.

[jb7304]

I will let you know. I will receiving my issued Gen4 Glock 21 next month.

[PLCedeno]

After 4000 rounds of flawless performance the only con is the size. For me.

[brushy bill]

deleted

[KiloSierra]

Just curious what kind of problems did the GEN4 G22's Have ?
I wanted to get on with my GSSF Coupon---

I was wrong about them being Gen 4's. they were Gen 3 RTF2's. They did have the Gen 4 recoil spring assemblies and I'm assuming some or all other Gen 4 mechanical changes though. Four out of twenty arrived non functional. Two were able to be fixed with replacement of some internals with parts out of the G35's they replaced. The remaining two wouldn't work regardless of being cleaned and parts replaced. Two other pierced primers. A few(3?) others would routinely split cartridge cases when fired. Those and several others shaved the mouths on cartridges when feeding. We had a one that after it was fired a couple hundred times had to be detail stripped and cleaned because of the amount of brass shavings in it. The one I was issued shaved the case mouths all the way down and into the bullet when I tried to load it. It remained unfired other then at the factory.



Then you might want to discuss with your department armorer/command/union rep about your department initiating alternative handgun(s) for those affected, if in fact there are not current alternative selections; if your numbers are correct, it sounds to me like you're inferring that over half or more of your department has ergonomic/fit/index issues with the issued G21 Gen4.

What's also interesting to me is that you stipulated that departmental qualification scores went down after conversion to the G21, from previous scores when you utilized Glock G22 and G35 in .40; the exact reverse was true with the Arkansas State Park Rangers in the 2009 timeframe when they converted from the G23 and G27 to the Gen 3 G21 SF; they cited the softer recoil of the .45 ACP cartridge to that of the .40 S&W as the main reason (also of note is that they were previously using the compact G23 and subcompact G27 in .40, and you and your department were using full-size G22 and G35, which significantly amelioriate the recoil effect of the .40 cartridge).

How large is your department, and were you given a chance to provide input regarding the selection of the G21 Gen4? Again, I'm a bit surprised that command would select a gun that seemingly provides such de facto issues to half of its sworn officers.

Best, Jon

The only issue half the department(ten officer's) has is the fact they issued the G21's and holsters and did not issue any ammo to practice with and most of the officer's are so cheap and/or lazy they won't buy ammo to practice themselves or go to the range. I have brought up the issue of the size of the guns to command when they were trying to make me switch to a G21 and the response was that if someone had problems with the size of the G21 they obviously were obviously unfit to be officers. When I brought up the fact that that was exposing them to liability because the officer's were able to qualify routinely with the previously issued sidearms and were obviously fit to be officer prior to being issued G21's all I got was no response and no one said anything when I kept carrying my M&P 40 and then switched to a M&P 9. They also allowed privately purchased 9mm's and .40's to be carried a few months later. Several other officer's were also carrying their previously issued G22's that they bought from the department already by that point. Several other officer's also bought .45's other then the G21 to carry. Most officer's that are currently carrying the G21's plan to buy G17/G22's or M&P's to replace them when they get the money or fall into the "department will buy me what I need and I ain't spending my own money" crowd.

The sole reason we switched to a .45 ACP handgun is the assistant chief. The sole reason we went with the G21 was no one wanted to buy M&P's. The assistant chief's response to my question of why are we switching to the least ergonomic service pistol available in the most expensive common service caliber when we barely have enough money in the budget for cheaper .40 ammo was "because you can hit a guy in the leg with a .45 ball round and he'll drop dead from the shock" and "no one will have issues because it's almost the same size as what we already have." And no input was solicited from patrol or anyone else on switching until the decision was already made.

[jlw]

I was wrong about them being Gen 4's. they were Gen 3 RTF2's. They did have the Gen 4 recoil spring assemblies and I'm assuming some or all other Gen 4 mechanical changes though. Four out of twenty arrived non functional. Two were able to be fixed with replacement of some internals with parts out of the G35's they replaced. The remaining two wouldn't work regardless of being cleaned and parts replaced. Two other pierced primers. A few(3?) others would routinely split cartridge cases when fired. Those and several others shaved the mouths on cartridges when feeding. We had a one that after it was fired a couple hundred times had to be detail stripped and cleaned because of the amount of brass shavings in it. The one I was issued shaved the case mouths all the way down and into the bullet when I tried to load it. It remained unfired other then at the factory.




The only issue half the department(ten officer's) has is the fact they issued the G21's and holsters and did not issue any ammo to practice with and most of the officer's are so cheap and/or lazy they won't buy ammo to practice themselves or go to the range. I have brought up the issue of the size of the guns to command when they were trying to make me switch to a G21 and the response was that if someone had problems with the size of the G21 they obviously were obviously unfit to be officers. When I brought up the fact that that was exposing them to liability because the officer's were able to qualify routinely with the previously issued sidearms and were obviously fit to be officer prior to being issued G21's all I got was no response and no one said anything when I kept carrying my M&P 40 and then switched to a M&P 9. They also allowed privately purchased 9mm's and .40's to be carried a few months later. Several other officer's were also carrying their previously issued G22's that they bought from the department already by that point. Several other officer's also bought .45's other then the G21 to carry. Most officer's that are currently carrying the G21's plan to buy G17/G22's or M&P's to replace them when they get the money or fall into the "department will buy me what I need and I ain't spending my own money" crowd.

The sole reason we switched to a .45 ACP handgun is the assistant chief. The sole reason we went with the G21 was no one wanted to buy M&P's. The assistant chief's response to my question of why are we switching to the least ergonomic service pistol available in the most expensive common service caliber when we barely have enough money in the budget for cheaper .40 ammo was "because you can hit a guy in the leg with a .45 ball round and he'll drop dead from the shock" and "no one will have issues because it's almost the same size as what we already have." And no input was solicited from patrol or anyone else on switching until the decision was already made.

There is nothing that can be done about personnel who simply refuse to get better. We scheduled a dozen or so open range sessions with furnished ammo, on the clock/overtime, and vehicles to get to the range, and some personnel simply weren't taking advantage of it.

I did away with remedial training for those who didn't qualify, and you would have thought I had slaughtered a puppy by beating it to death with a kitten.

As for the "ole .45 in the leg" point of view, it's just as bad. We have a guy who is very much into blue lights and gadgets for patrol cars. Each year, we give him a budget, and he takes care of outfitting the cars. I readily admit that I don't know the difference between and Whelen and a Code 3 product, and I hope I don't get put in the position of having to know. TRUST YOUR EXPERTS and hire good people. Let them do their jobs.

[brushy bill]

I was wrong about them being Gen 4's. they were Gen 3 RTF2's. They did have the Gen 4 recoil spring assemblies and I'm assuming some or all other Gen 4 mechanical changes though.

I have never heard of this Gen 3/4 hybrid you refer to. Possible that the details on this count are incorrect as well?

[JonInWA]

I agree-Gen 3 and Gen4 models are distinctly different, with different receiver and slide architecture. I've never heard, seen or handled any such hybrid Gen3/Gen4 Glock. KiloSierra, did you personally handle/shoot/field-strip/detail dissassemble the Glocks you describe?

Best, Jon

[KiloSierra]

Yes I did. One was issued to me personally, and I field stripped, cleaned, oiled and attempted to load it as mentioned in an earlier post. I did field strip two other pistols and both of them had the dual recoil spring. As mentioned earlier I just assumed they were Gen 4's because they had the dual recoil springs and I had heard the Gen 4's had dual recoil springs.

Another officer tried switching the slide, barrel and recoil spring off his personal G22 and reported it was a no go.

[jlw]

Yes I did. One was issued to me personally, and I field stripped, cleaned, oiled and attempted to load it as mentioned in an earlier post. I did field strip two other pistols and both of them had the dual recoil spring. As mentioned earlier I just assumed they were Gen 4's because they had the dual recoil springs and I had heard the Gen 4's had dual recoil springs.

Another officer tried switching the slide, barrel and recoil spring off his personal G22 and reported it was a no go.

Maybe I am not reading this correctly. Did he try to put the slide from a G22 onto a G21?

[brushy bill]

I think he may be confusing the captured factory single spring with the dual spring of the Gen 4. No Gen 3 has used the Gen 4 dual spring system to my knowledge, and as I understand things, they can't.

[jlw]

I think he may be confusing the captured factory single spring with the dual spring of the Gen 4. No Gen 3 has used the Gen 4 dual spring system to my knowledge, and as I understand things, they can't.

I'm thinking so too.