View Full Version : Can a tier 2 AR/M4 be improved to tier 1 ?
Ok I started the "Do you like your Stag?" thread. Thank you for all of the replies. Now let me ask this. Can a AR/M4 that is not top tier be brought up to a good quality rifle? I was ignorant when I bought the Stag, hence the reason for the Spikes upper on a Stag lower. I personally dont care about the roll mark. The roll mark could be a streaming pile of horse manure for I care. But by replacing parts that arent mil spec with BCM or other quality parts can the rifle be brought up to a better more reliable level?
Good barrel + Good BCG + In spec upper and lower receivers = Good AR (more or less) Everything else is just trivial (Commercial RE, cheap rail, etc)
If you're using a complete Spikes Tactical upper then I would leave it alone. The lower is hard to screw up and Stag uses CMT parts for their lower/LPK and that's pretty much what everybody else uses. I would only sell the current lower and replace it for a Spikes when the opportunity is available; if not just for the sake of having a "complete" weapon.
Spikes Tactical is not the *best* but they're one of the better.
What kind of BCG and charging handle are you using? If you want to "upgrade" then replace your current charging handle with a BCM Gunfighter. Depending on your BCG, you may want to replace that with a BCM. If it's a Spikes BCG then just leave it be.
edit: you could also just sell it on AR15 and buy a complete BCM, Colt, etc ;)
I have complete Spikes LE upper on a stag lower and a 100% Stag that is unfired.
It can be diminishing returns to upgrade versus selling something and buying something better. There are a ton of threads on this site that basically offer the same advice.
I have complete Spikes LE upper on a stag lower and a 100% Stag that is unfired.
Spikes is usually GTG.
Like I said, replace the Stag lower with a Spikes when you get the chance just so you can have two complete rifles rather than 1 complete and 1 mutt. I guess that's more of a preference thing, though. After that, I'd sell the complete Stag you have and put the money towards a BCM or Colt, or an optic/ammo.
BCM Gunfighter charging handle is a must for both.
BufordTJustice
11-11-12, 13:16
I look at it in terms of parts that CANNOT be easily replaced after the gun is built.
Everything in the lower is relatively easy to swap out except the takedown pins spring detents (those are little sons of bitches).
In the upper, the barrel (which includes the barrel extension, gas port size, and includes the quality of the barrel steel) cannot be quickly or easily swapped out unless you know how to and have the right tools. Same goes for the upper receiver if it is out-of-spec (i.e. the threads are not cut properly, the raceway is not parallel, the cam pin track is machined improperly, the actual heat treat/hardness of the upper is too soft, the anodizing of the upper is too soft or cheap, etc.
The problem is, the most expensive part of any standard format upper (with an FSB and no fancy free float handguards) is the barrel. The first place that cheapy makers save money is......THE BARREL. This means the employment of various grades of 4140 steel, with various quality levels of heat treat and finishing...with or without chrome lining.
This also includes gas ports that run on the large side (and are often inconsistent in size from gun-to-gun as they don't change their drill bit for the gas ports at the factory very often). This is for a few reasons. They may need a larger gas port to overcome some tolerance stacks in their non-mil-spec upper assemblies. Example: the upper receiver's threads are SLIGHTLY out of perpendicular to the bore centerline (I've seen it). This means that some binding occurs of the BCG as it cycles in the upper. Additionally, there may be a small gas leak between the gas key and the bolt carrier as those surfaces haven't undergone the additional prep-steps of having the surfaces smoothed and ready to be mated or the gas key screws haven't been torqued properly. Couple these two issue with a cheap (read: rough) surface finish on the type-II anodizing (which is MUCH cheaper and softer than the type III used on mil spec guns) inside the upper and you have a set of circumstances that REQUIRE a larger gas port so that most guns coming off the line will run properly.
The problem is, when you buy a gun from a manufacturer who doesn't adhere to the tight tolerances, dimensions, materials, and assembly techniques of the TDP, it's impossible to KNOW what is out of spec and what is not. So, it's not always as easy as swapping out a few parts. If your barrel, barrel extension, upper, or gas port are out of spec....you can't fix that without replacement.....which means you might as well buy a quality unit to begin with.
Make sense?
A cheap gun can be made MORE reliable by the substitution of quality parts just as a Nissan 370z can be made to perform better than stock with aftermarket upgrades. However, that 370z will never be a GTR. To get a GTR, you need to buy one of those. Even if the 370z gets a supercharger, drag slicks, a LSD, short shift kit, etc.....and it is able to equal the GTR in acceleration numbers (unlikely). Even IF that were to take place, it is still NOT a GTR.
To get a quality gun that adheres to the TDP (Technical Data Package), you simply have to buy one from a manufacturer that follows the TDP tot he letter.
I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?
BufordTJustice
11-11-12, 13:21
Spikes is usually GTG.
Like I said, replace the Stag lower with a Spikes when you get the chance just so you can have two complete rifles rather than 1 complete and 1 mutt. I guess that's more of a preference thing, though. After that, I'd sell the complete Stag you have and put the money towards a BCM or Colt, or an optic/ammo.
BCM Gunfighter charging handle is a must for both.
I use a Spikes lower and it has been in spec in every dimension and the finish has worn very well.
I have had several local buddies buy their stuff and they have turned out to be good running guns. They are better than the gun store lot (Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, CMMG, Model 1 sales, Stag), but I am still not certain that they are on-par with BCM, LMT, DD, or Colt (among others). I know the owner made an a$$ of himself a while back on this and other forums. But that is over now and his guns seem to be of consistent quality.
I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?
I second this.
A shitty rifle such as DPMS and Bushmaster are not true AR15/M4's. They are not quality and they certainly are not built to spec. Say what you will, but to me they are just clones. It's like trying to say the Taurus PT92 is a Beretta 92... it's just not true...... it's a cheap imitation.
yossarian42
11-11-12, 14:08
I have a stag with their "plus package" which upgrades the barrel steel to carpenter 158, 1/7 twist hp mp all that jazz. Basically brings it to the standards of "the chart." It's accurate, feels well made to me but I only have this rifle. I did shoot someone's RRA yesterday and it has a cheap feel to it. The buffer spring sounded way loud (not sure if that matters or why it is so loud compared to mine. Maybe a lighter buffer, semi carrier?) rails feel cheap etc.
I ordered a midlength bcm upper on election night. Hammer forged barrel. I didn't find this site until after I bought the stag which I thought I had researched fairly well. This site is the ONLY site that has negative views on the lower tier AR's but I know that's because this site is largely military and professional shooters.
When I buy something I don't like to cheap out, so had I known I'd have bought a bcm from the beginning. I'm going to use the stag lower until I eventually piece together a bcm lower. Then ill have two AR's. I'd rather have two than sell the stag.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
polymorpheous
11-11-12, 14:16
*snipped*
This is an excellent response.
Thanks for posting.
GunFighter98
11-11-12, 14:47
Its just easier to buy tier 1 the first time. You can only polish a turd so much.
I have a stag with their "plus package" which upgrades the barrel steel to carpenter 158, 1/7 twist hp mp all that jazz. Basically brings it to the standards of "the chart." It's accurate, feels well made to me but I only have this rifle. I did shoot someone's RRA yesterday and it has a cheap feel to it. The buffer spring sounded way loud (not sure if that matters or why it is so loud compared to mine. Maybe a lighter buffer, semi carrier?) rails feel cheap etc.
I ordered a midlength bcm upper on election night. Hammer forged barrel. I didn't find this site until after I bought the stag which I thought I had researched fairly well. This site is the ONLY site that has negative views on the lower tier AR's but I know that's because this site is largely military and professional shooters.
When I buy something I don't like to cheap out, so had I known I'd have bought a bcm from the beginning. I'm going to use the stag lower until I eventually piece together a bcm lower. Then ill have two AR's. I'd rather have two than sell the stag.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
This is my same experience. Live and learn I guess.
Ok I started the "Do you like your Stag?" thread. Thank you for all of the replies. Now let me ask this. Can a AR/M4 that is not top tier be brought up to a good quality rifle? I was ignorant when I bought the Stag, hence the reason for the Spikes upper on a Stag lower. I personally dont care about the roll mark. The roll mark could be a streaming pile of horse manure for I care. But by replacing parts that arent mil spec with BCM or other quality parts can the rifle be brought up to a better more reliable level?
It will cost you more money to bring a tier 2 level gun up to spec, than just buying the tier 1 in the first place.
since you've already bought the lower, I would buy a quality LPK to replace the original, BUT if this isn't your go to defense weapon I'd run the crap out of the original lower and get my money's worth out of it before replacing parts.
What exactly is wrong with the rifle(s) that you have now? Do they satisfy your current needs / uses?
Yes, it absolutely can be done.
Unfortunately, usually at a higher cost than simply selling the existing rifle and buying a Colt from scratch. I've done the former, twice, and I love those rifles, but the resale value on them is nowhere near what I put into them, so I've written off most of that sunk cost as the price of learning the whole buy once cry once rule.
When even eating the cost of reselling what you already have and paying MSRP puts you ahead, don't feel bad about it, that's just how it is. It doesn't cost a whole lot more to do the QC/QA to make a rifle top tier, but that kind of stuff adds up, and is why an RRA/Bushhampster/DPMS type rifle is only one or two bills cheaper than a top of the line one.
What exactly is wrong with the rifle(s) that you have now? Do they satisfy your current needs / uses?
To add to this, how many rounds have you shot thru the ST/Stag combo? Are you having any malfunctions?
Excellent thread on improving guns that may be sub-par:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
The Stag Lower and Spikes Upper works well. I already mentioned the Stag is older and unfired. I consider any gun I own to perform to defend my life and my families. That is why I have the concern about the Stag. Just a side note, and I mean no disrespect to anyone. This site has a great wealth of knowledge, that is a FACT, however some posters aren't very friendly to new guys that aren't as knowledgeable has so many are here. Maybe consider some of us are here to learn from those that have far more and extensive knowledge and experience than others. Dom
Ok I started the "Do you like your Stag?" thread. Thank you for all of the replies. Now let me ask this. Can a AR/M4 that is not top tier be brought up to a good quality rifle? I was ignorant when I bought the Stag, hence the reason for the Spikes upper on a Stag lower. I personally dont care about the roll mark. The roll mark could be a streaming pile of horse manure for I care. But by replacing parts that arent mil spec with BCM or other quality parts can the rifle be brought up to a better more reliable level?
If your gun was a complete STAG, I would do the following:
1. Add an H2 buffer.
2. Add a SpringCo BLUE CS buffer spring.
3. Check the staking on the gas key and castle nut.
4. Buy a spare BCG.
5. Shoot the gun until you break something and then call the manufacturer.
C4
What exactly is wrong with the rifle(s) that you have now? Do they satisfy your current needs / uses?
Probably the most relevant post in the thread thus far. "'Better is the enemy of 'Good Enough'".
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 12:04
Probably the most relevant post in the thread thus far. "'Better is the enemy of 'Good Enough'".
Yeah, except there is NO STANDARD for good enough.
"Good enough" could be absolute shit or high quality...or anywhere in between.
Mil spec provides a known standard. That's why it is important. Failure points can be estimated, service intervals implemented with confidence. If somebody wants to gamble with their own life, I won't stop them. However, on a gun that may defend a life, "shoot it till it breaks" is bad advice. What happens when it breaks when YOU NEED IT TO WORK?
But I won't be participating in the Redneck Olympics, despite being a redneck myself.
Dom, your Spikes upper on the Stag lower can be pressed into service with Grant's advice serving you best. If you are worried about this, or about recouping your investment, I would buy a Colt 6920 and not look back.
Yeah, except there is NO STANDARD for good enough.
"Good enough" could be absolute shit or high quality...or anywhere in between.
Mil spec provides a known standard. That's why it is important. Failure points can be estimated, service intervals implemented with confidence. If somebody wants to gamble with their own life, I won't stop them. However, on a gun that may defend a life, "shoot it till it breaks" is bad advice. What happens when it breaks when YOU NEED IT TO WORK?
For sake of argument let's assume that "good enough" is tantamount to "fit for purpose" even if not TDP compliant. Over time, I've evolved my thinking to, "If it works, it works."; with the understanding that all things mechanical will break, it's only a matter of time. Following the TDP is not infallible and offers no guarantee that a gun won't ever go down (the inverse is also true). What's needed is for users to understand the weapon system, how it works & how to maintain it so that they can place more emphasis on shooting than gear selection.
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 13:23
For sake of argument let's assume that "good enough" is tantamount to "fit for purpose" even if not TDP compliant. Over time, I've evolved my thinking to, "If it works, it works."; with the understanding that all things mechanical will break, it's only a matter of time. Following the TDP is not infallible and offers no guarantee that a gun won't ever go down (the inverse is also true). What's needed is for users to understand the weapon system, how it works & how to maintain it so that they can place more emphasis on shooting than gear selection.
I disagree with your assumption. You're attempting to assign a quantity or quality to something that is, by definition, UNQUANTIFIABLE.
The fact that these manufacturers fail to comply with the TDP (which is what makes an AR an AR) means that everything about their guns is an UNKNOWN. The TDP may not be the best technical standard available, but it is MORE expensive to comply with it than not to comply. So, by definition, these cheap-O makers are cutting corners. You can't defend that. And because you don't know HOW MANY CORNERS have been cut, you really don't know ANYTHING about the guns you're defending. You're defending an unknown quantity at best and a myth at worst.
Not everybody is an engineer, though a basic operational knowledge of the platform is beneficial. However, somebody doesn't need technical knowledge to know that some guns meet the specs that Stoner set forth and others do not...and to avoid the ones that do not.
I have no idea why you're trying to defend sub-par quality guns for defensive uses. Do you advocate for Hi-point handguns over Glocks?
The Stag Lower and Spikes Upper works well. I already mentioned the Stag is older and unfired. I consider any gun I own to perform to defend my life and my families. That is why I have the concern about the Stag. Just a side note, and I mean no disrespect to anyone. This site has a great wealth of knowledge, that is a FACT, however some posters aren't very friendly to new guys that aren't as knowledgeable has so many are here. Maybe consider some of us are here to learn from those that have far more and extensive knowledge and experience than others. DomI am attempting to make an earnest effort to pass on some of my experiences. First off, you should clearly state what your purpose is for your rifle(s) in your original post. Are you shooting cans off the back porch, are you in LE or plan on using the rifle for defensive purposes? Each will give you a different answer, at least from me. In the future, uses and budget help to formulate an appropriate reply.
If you are killing cans in the back forty, I would say not to worry about it, shoot it and if something breaks, then invest in fixing it, perhaps with better quality parts. For this purpose, your rifles as are will probably give you a lifetime of pleasure without upgrades.
Now if it is going to see defensive or critical uses I would offer similar advice that was given as "upgrades". Chances are, with a proper vetting your rifles will probably be just fine as they are. However my preference in this type of situation would be to have a weapon with the highest amount of reliability to perform as needed each and every time, so yes I would upgrade certain areas. Also for my purposes or what I would expect from anyone deploying a weapon for defensive purposes is that there should be high volumes of training, so a more reliable weapon is my preference. However I will not automatically offer such "upgrade" advice without all the pertinent shooters information, which I feel was not given.
You say that you have an unfired Stag yet it may be used to defend the family? One piece of advice....no weapon should be relied upon for this type of defensive situation until it has been fully fired for function and vetted as reliable. This should be a few hundred rounds in various types of fire / manipulations. It does not matter if it is your older unfired Stag, "upgraded, tier 1" Stag, or a Colt 6920 out of the box. All weapons should be properly vetted before being used for critical use or defensive purposes.
So I am trying to give sound advice. Is the advice sound for you to automatically "upgrade" these rifles for killing only cans? Not IMO and quite frankly I see that type of advice automatically dispensed when the question is asked, even without all of the information needed. Sure I could give you a blanket answer on what to "upgrade" but is that doing your occasional back forty, can killing enthusiast good advice? Not IMO.
I disagree with your assumption. You're attempting to assign a quantity or quality to something that is, by definition, UNQUANTIFIABLE.
IMO, function is quite quantifiable.
I have no idea why you're trying to defend sub-par quality guns for defensive uses. Do you advocate for Hi-point handguns over Glocks?
I'm not defending anything. A serviceable gun, is a serviceable gun. As far as I know the OP has not identified an issue with his gun yet and Spikes and Stag aren't quite Hesse or Olympic Arms. No, I wouldn't advocate Hi-Point over Glock, but if someone already has a working CZ I'm not going to tell them that they need to toss it in the lake and fork over money to Gaston either.
If your gun was a complete STAG, I would do the following:
1. Add an H2 buffer.
2. Add a SpringCo BLUE CS buffer spring.
3. Check the staking on the gas key and castle nut.
4. Buy a spare BCG.
5. Shoot the gun until you break something and then call the manufacturer.
C4
Good advice here.
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 14:15
IMO, function is quite quantifiable.
I'm not defending anything. A serviceable gun, is a serviceable gun. As far as I know the OP has not identified an issue with his gun yet and Spikes and Stag aren't quite Hesse or Olympic Arms. No, I wouldn't advocate Hi-Point over Glock, but if someone already has a working CZ I'm not going to tell them that they need to toss it in the lake and fork over money to Gaston either.
Function on this round may not be function on the next. You can advocate playing the AR lottery all you want. I'm simply against that.
I advocate buying a KNOWN QUALITY gun...even for a "fun gun". There's nothing "fun" about clearing a malfunction several times per magazine.
Function on this round may not be function on the next.
That's true for anything. Even more so if you're not performing any inspection or preventative maintenance on your gear.
You can advocate playing the AR lottery all you want. I'm simply against that.
I'm not advocating playing a lottery either. Any gun I own is going to have to prove itself trouble free for at least 500 rounds with no cleaning or lube before I consider it "good", "tier 1" or not.
I advocate buying a KNOWN QUALITY gun...even for a "fun gun". There's nothing "fun" about clearing a malfunction several times per magazine.
You know what, so do I. But I also advocate using common sense and not jumping to the conclusion that anything other than Colt, Noveske or BCM will automatically shit the bed and spontaneously combust when the flag drops.
I look at it in terms of parts that CANNOT be easily replaced after the gun is built.
Everything in the lower is relatively easy to swap out except the takedown pins spring detents (those are little sons of bitches).
In the upper, the barrel (which includes the barrel extension, gas port size, and includes the quality of the barrel steel) cannot be quickly or easily swapped out unless you know how to and have the right tools. Same goes for the upper receiver if it is out-of-spec (i.e. the threads are not cut properly, the raceway is not parallel, the cam pin track is machined improperly, the actual heat treat/hardness of the upper is too soft, the anodizing of the upper is too soft or cheap, etc.
The problem is, the most expensive part of any standard format upper (with an FSB and no fancy free float handguards) is the barrel. The first place that cheapy makers save money is......THE BARREL. This means the employment of various grades of 4140 steel, with various quality levels of heat treat and finishing...with or without chrome lining.
This also includes gas ports that run on the large side (and are often inconsistent in size from gun-to-gun as they don't change their drill bit for the gas ports at the factory very often). This is for a few reasons. They may need a larger gas port to overcome some tolerance stacks in their non-mil-spec upper assemblies. Example: the upper receiver's threads are SLIGHTLY out of perpendicular to the bore centerline (I've seen it). This means that some binding occurs of the BCG as it cycles in the upper. Additionally, there may be a small gas leak between the gas key and the bolt carrier as those surfaces haven't undergone the additional prep-steps of having the surfaces smoothed and ready to be mated or the gas key screws haven't been torqued properly. Couple these two issue with a cheap (read: rough) surface finish on the type-II anodizing (which is MUCH cheaper and softer than the type III used on mil spec guns) inside the upper and you have a set of circumstances that REQUIRE a larger gas port so that most guns coming off the line will run properly.
The problem is, when you buy a gun from a manufacturer who doesn't adhere to the tight tolerances, dimensions, materials, and assembly techniques of the TDP, it's impossible to KNOW what is out of spec and what is not. So, it's not always as easy as swapping out a few parts. If your barrel, barrel extension, upper, or gas port are out of spec....you can't fix that without replacement.....which means you might as well buy a quality unit to begin with.
Make sense?
A cheap gun can be made MORE reliable by the substitution of quality parts just as a Nissan 370z can be made to perform better than stock with aftermarket upgrades. However, that 370z will never be a GTR. To get a GTR, you need to buy one of those. Even if the 370z gets a supercharger, drag slicks, a LSD, short shift kit, etc.....and it is able to equal the GTR in acceleration numbers (unlikely). Even IF that were to take place, it is still NOT a GTR.
To get a quality gun that adheres to the TDP (Technical Data Package), you simply have to buy one from a manufacturer that follows the TDP tot he letter.
I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?
...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?
You know what, so do I. But I also advocate using common sense and not jumping to the conclusion that anything other than Colt, Noveske or BCM will automatically shit the bed and spontaneously combust when the flag drops.
You're right - Daniel Defense, LMT, LaRue, Troy, PSA, and Spikes don't combust either. :jester:
I started out with Tier 2 and she could get the job done, but wasn't pleasant to play with and was very heavy and didn't handle well... I called her Shelly:p
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/Shelley-Winters-2.jpg
Then I decided to do ALOT of plastic surgery and changed alot of parts internal and external and ended up with a highly functional HSLD piece of ass... err I mean kit and it still wasn't satisfactory something just fake, plastic, gawdy and flashy with no soul... I called her Slutty:p
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/img_2418947_620.jpg
Then I said, "sod this!" I'm gonna sell this FrankenBitch and upgrade to proper Tier One and I ended up with this... I call her Sheri and she is made by Noveske;) Oh, and that is the nice All American and lovely sales lady holding her:p
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/sherinoveske-1.jpg
I am attempting to make an earnest effort to pass on some of my experiences. First off, you should clearly state what your purpose is for your rifle(s) in your original post. Are you shooting cans off the back porch, are you in LE or plan on using the rifle for defensive purposes? Each will give you a different answer, at least from me. In the future, uses and budget help to formulate an appropriate reply.
If you are killing cans in the back forty, I would say not to worry about it, shoot it and if something breaks, then invest in fixing it, perhaps with better quality parts. For this purpose, your rifles as are will probably give you a lifetime of pleasure without upgrades.
Now if it is going to see defensive or critical uses I would offer similar advice that was given as "upgrades". Chances are, with a proper vetting your rifles will probably be just fine as they are. However my preference in this type of situation would be to have a weapon with the highest amount of reliability to perform as needed each and every time, so yes I would upgrade certain areas. Also for my purposes or what I would expect from anyone deploying a weapon for defensive purposes is that there should be high volumes of training, so a more reliable weapon is my preference. However I will not automatically offer such "upgrade" advice without all the pertinent shooters information, which I feel was not given.
You say that you have an unfired Stag yet it may be used to defend the family? One piece of advice....no weapon should be relied upon for this type of defensive situation until it has been fully fired for function and vetted as reliable. This should be a few hundred rounds in various types of fire / manipulations. It does not matter if it is your older unfired Stag, "upgraded, tier 1" Stag, or a Colt 6920 out of the box. All weapons should be properly vetted before being used for critical use or defensive purposes.
So I am trying to give sound advice. Is the advice sound for you to automatically "upgrade" these rifles for killing only cans? Not IMO and quite frankly I see that type of advice automatically dispensed when the question is asked, even without all of the information needed. Sure I could give you a blanket answer on what to "upgrade" but is that doing your occasional back forty, can killing enthusiast good advice? Not IMO.
I understand your point very clearly. I want any firearm I own to be reliable and trusted. The Stag is unfired because I dont know if I should sell it or trade it to get a top tier M4. All of my firearms have been run to be proven to me to be reliable. Ruger P95, S&W .38, Benelli, Remington. I am not in a great financial position right now to jump on a good deal and I am VERY disappointed in my choice of the Stag. Other sites love them but as I mentioned it may need to defend my family someday so I certainly want the top tier.
I looked into a spikes lower to complete the spike upper its a 8-12 mo back order.
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 15:55
...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?
EDIT: In 2009 the Army acquired the right to use the TDP from Colt.
From GearScout:
"the US Army acquired the rights to Colt’s Technical Data Package in July, 2009. While the Army signed a 10-year exclusive contract with Colt in 1999 to produce the M4/M4A1, the Army does not own the TDP. But, the Army is now allowed to provide it to second sources of production under a licensing agreement that goes back to the original 1967 M16 contract. The M4 is a derivative of the M16."
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/04/20/us-army-places-order-for-24000-m4-carbines-with-remington/
We know that FNH USA manufactures M16s in their entirety and that Remington did have access to the TDP for a period of months when it THOUGHT it was going to produce M4's as well. We all saw how that worked out.
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 16:05
That's true for anything. Even more so if you're not performing any inspection or preventative maintenance on your gear.
I'm not advocating playing a lottery either. Any gun I own is going to have to prove itself trouble free for at least 500 rounds with no cleaning or lube before I consider it "good", "tier 1" or not.
You know what, so do I. But I also advocate using common sense and not jumping to the conclusion that anything other than Colt, Noveske or BCM will automatically shit the bed and spontaneously combust when the flag drops.
You can consider something "good" or "tier 1" all day. It doesn't make it so.
Failures from non spec parts can happen suddenly and without warning...like a crack or inclusion on a bolt that WOULD have been discovered by HPT/MPI testing...but what you're recommending is that if somebody has a batch-tested item, they should still have just as much confidence in that item. I disagree.
A bolt with an undiscovered flaw could fail AT ANY TIME and there is no way you could know prior to the failure. Same with an extractor that is not made from tool steel and shot peened, same with a barrel made from cheap steel and not HPT/MPI, same with a barrel extension that does not meet required hardness specs (could allow headpsace to grow over time).
You CANNOT KNOW what will fail in a gun that is not made to spec. CANNOT KNOW. At least with milspec there are safeguards due to using specific, high quality materials, tight tolerances, and specific assembly techniques. Buying a gun that does not adhere to these standards is a GAMBLE.
You are advocating that if somebody has a substandard gun that may be used for defensive purposes that they should just "trust" that gun after a certain number of rounds.
There is a reason that Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" wasn't a Stag, Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, or Olympic Arms. I bet Pat wishes those would work just as well as a BCM/Colt/LMT/DD, since they all cost a LOT less for him to buy. But the fact is, they don't stand up to the abuse like a properly made carbine. You can tout something as "good enough for you" all you want...but trying to push that FAITH onto other people could eventually get somebody hurt or killed.
I never said that any of these guns will "automatically shit the bed". What I did say was that their failure modes are far less predictable than with mil spec guns because set standards have not been employed. What don't you understand about this? You don't know what you don't know about these sub-par guns.
In 2009 the Army bought the rights to the TDP from Colt.
Does the army manufacture ARs?
Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?
I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.
yossarian42
11-12-12, 16:13
Should a stag with plus package be considered made to spec then? The only thing that can think of that could be out of spec if you have the plus package is gas port size and chamber size. Anything else to worry about? Just curious because I thought I was making a good purchase with a stag plus package rifle.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 16:23
Does the army manufacture ARs?
Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?
I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.
See my edited post.
BufordTJustice
11-12-12, 16:25
Should a stag with plus package be considered made to spec then? The only thing that can think of that could be out of spec if you have the plus package is gas port size and chamber size. Anything else to worry about? Just curious because I thought I was making a good purchase with a stag plus package rifle.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
I, personally, would not consider any Stag anything more than a fun-only plinker....regardless of the option package.
These guns are like seatbelts...I don't want different grade seatbelts. I want a seatbelt that works. If a company sells seatbelts that WILL work and seatbelts that SHOULD work, that doesn't seem very honest to me.
I would rather buy from a company that holds all their products to the same high standards. That's my personal opinion.
With that said, the upgrades can do nothing but help the function and reliability of that Stag.
...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?
Yes and no. Lots of companies have some form or part of it (though most likely outdated), but they cannot use it (legally) to build an AR.
C4
Does the army manufacture ARs?
Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?
I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.
It doesn't.
Whoever uses the TDP for making actual mil-spec firearms for the military, other than Colt, signs a non-disclosure, and cannot use the TDP for commercial purposes.
You can consider something "good" or "tier 1" all day. It doesn't make it so.
Failures from non spec parts can happen suddenly and without warning...like a crack or inclusion on a bolt that WOULD have been discovered by HPT/MPI testing...but what you're recommending is that if somebody has a batch-tested item, they should still have just as much confidence in that item. I disagree.
A bolt with an undiscovered flaw could fail AT ANY TIME and there is no way you could know prior to the failure. Same with an extractor that is not made from tool steel and shot peened, same with a barrel made from cheap steel and not HPT/MPI, same with a barrel extension that does not meet required hardness specs (could allow headpsace to grow over time).
You CANNOT KNOW what will fail in a gun that is not made to spec. CANNOT KNOW. At least with milspec there are safeguards due to using specific, high quality materials, tight tolerances, and specific assembly techniques. Buying a gun that does not adhere to these standards is a GAMBLE.
You are advocating that if somebody has a substandard gun that may be used for defensive purposes that they should just "trust" that gun after a certain number of rounds.
There is a reason that Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" wasn't a Stag, Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, or Olympic Arms. I bet Pat wishes those would work just as well as a BCM/Colt/LMT/DD, since they all cost a LOT less for him to buy. But the fact is, they don't stand up to the abuse like a properly made carbine. You can tout something as "good enough for you" all you want...but trying to push that FAITH onto other people could eventually get somebody hurt or killed.
I never said that any of these guns will "automatically shit the bed". What I did say was that their failure modes are far less predictable than with mil spec guns because set standards have not been employed. What don't you understand about this? You don't know what you don't know about these sub-par guns.
You're misconstruing what I said. These guns are generally referred to in "tiers" for a reason. That reason is that not every single aspect of the TDP is critical to the basic function of the rifle which makes them "serviceable". That's not elevating "sub par" guns or knocking down the "par", that's stating an empirical fact.
I looked into a spikes lower to complete the spike upper its a 8-12 mo back order.
You might want to look around in local gun stores. I know of three within 30 minutes of me that have complete Spikes lowers currently for sale.
If you know what you are doing just get a hold of a stripped Spikes lower receiver and throw in a quality LPK.
yossarian42
11-13-12, 07:50
You might want to look around in local gun stores. I know of three within 30 minutes of me that have complete Spikes lowers currently for sale.
If you know what you are doing just get a hold of a stripped Spikes lower receiver and throw in a quality LPK.
I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
+1 for that. There is some serious gouging going on right now.
+1 for that. There is some serious gouging going on right now.
I'll call around to my LGSs when they open this morning. If they have some left I will PM you guys their info so can get it transferred to you if you want? Couple of days ago I saw a complete Spikes lower for 230 and a stripped for 95.
I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
Which store?
yossarian42
11-13-12, 10:45
Chester's. called hunter today but they only have RRA. That probably the only lower of the popular brands that I def don't want. Heard many times they're a tight fit.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
I would check the staking on the carrier and castle nut and go shoot it. If you run into any issues send it back. The rest of this is all mental masturbation since you apparently don't have the money to buy something else right now anyways. Stag may not be "tier 1" but they generally work fine and are a decent gun. If you were talking about a DMPS or Olympic then it would be a different story.
OP,
If you don't trust the rifle and you upgrade some parts, are you then going to trust the rifle? If so, just upgrade the parts and be done with it. If not, just sell it now and go buy a new gun.
If you get a new gun, just buy a Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, etc.
JackFanToM
11-13-12, 19:45
Grant does sell and build reliable ARs, and has received high praise for his products and service from many members on this site. I have personally purchased an AR from him. Since I have personal, real life experience with Grant's expertise, I say trust him.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.