View Full Version : 65 Years Of The AK-47 Today...
November 13, 1947 Historical Events
The Soviet Union completes development of the AK-47, one of the first proper assault rifles.
brickboy240
11-13-12, 14:59
...and how "proper" it is!
I love mine!
-brickboy240
crusader377
11-13-12, 16:10
I always find it interesting that the Soviets got the assault rifle right the first time while it took nearly an additional 20 years to for the United States to field a proper assault rifle after wasting over a decade with the misstep called the M14.
I always find it interesting that the Soviets got the assault rifle right the first time while it took nearly an additional 20 years to for the United States to field a proper assault rifle after wasting over a decade with the misstep called the M14.
Never underestimate the government bean counter who wants to be able to use as many of the parts and ammo components that we are currently using for the "new" rifle.
Wouldn't have been so bad if the .308 we adopted was the FAL. Of course the punch line of the entire thing is we forced everyone else in NATO to adopt the .308 round before we finally figured it out. And then when we finally DID go to .223, we made everyone use the same crappy magazine.
Mo_Zam_Beek
11-13-12, 16:37
Aside from caliber variants, folder vs fixed, AK vs AKM, how many major design revs have they had?
Also did they continue to produce AKs in strong numbers once they started producing AKMs?
TIA
Before they got it "right" there were Type 1, Type 2 and then Type 3 AK47's and then culminated with the AK47 milled receiver. Then in 1959 comes the AKM with stamped receivers.
It is my understanding that once the AKM came into production the original AK47 production stopped except for countries like Bulgaria, China and East Germany (limited numbers).
Aside from caliber variants, folder vs fixed, AK vs AKM, how many major design revs have they had?
Also did they continue to produce AKs in strong numbers once they started producing AKMs?
TIA
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-12, 17:13
As fan of the Avtomat Kalashnikova I'll remember to raise a drink to Mikhail Kalashnikov this evening.
http://websmileys.com/sm/drink/trink39.gif
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Kalashnikov.jpg
I'm just thankful the showdown in Eastern Europe never happened.
FChen17213
11-13-12, 17:28
Let's also not forget that Kalashnikov also designed the great PKM. He wasn't responsible for the Dragunov, RPD, or Dshk though.
My understanding was that the original AK was stamped. There were some problems with the metal or some sort of heat treating problem. As a result, the first real production guns were milled and designated the AK-47. Then the AKM came out when they fixed the problems and went back to stamped receivers.
Although AKs come in 5.45x39 and 5.56x45 too, I think Kalashnikov's favorite is still in 7.62x39. He thought of the 5.45x39 round as a little too much of a copy cat of 5.56 NATO.
Generally speaking, when you make a new caliber gun like the AK-74 by modifying another design like the AK-47, reliability will suffer a little. Interestingly enough, I haven't heard anyone say that the AK-47 is more reliable than the AK-74. They are both considered "to hell and back" reliable by many. We can't say the same about stuff like the Glock 22 made from the Glock 17 and such.
Before they got it "right" there were Type 1, Type 2 and then Type 3 AK47's and then culminated with the AK47 milled receiver. Then in 1959 comes the AKM with stamped receivers.
It is my understanding that once the AKM came into production the original AK47 production stopped except for countries like Bulgaria, China and East Germany (limited numbers).
Yep.
On a different note, the M16/M4 platform arguably has netted out a more consistent magazine than AKs have to date. i.e., the steadfast PMAG, now also available for a variety of other systems as well, vs the few/rare quality, some semi-decent, and plenty of not so great AK mags available. There is no one clear winner in AK mags I'm aware of. Just lots and lots of variants mostly from several 2nd and 3rd world countries that hopefully function well when you need them to.
That said, still gotta love the AK. :agree:
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-12, 20:39
The AK magazine is the most over built robust mag in the history of small arms.
When the PMAGs arrived they didn't fit in all lowers and now we have how many PMAG varients and generations?
Yep.
On a different note, the M16/M4 platform arguably has netted out a more consistent magazine than AKs have to date. i.e., the steadfast PMAG, now also available for a variety of other systems as well, vs the few/rare quality, some semi-decent, and plenty of not so great AK mags available. There is no one clear winner in AK mags I'm aware of. Just lots and lots of variants mostly from several 2nd and 3rd world countries that hopefully function well when you need them to.
That said, still gotta love the AK. :agree:
I think Bulgarian Circle 10 is pretty much the Pmag equivalent. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a problem with a genuine factory 5.45 magazine. East German bakelites are IMO incredible. And I see a LOT of really old slab side 47 magazines still running strong after all these years.
The problem with the original AR magazine, as I understand it, is that it was originally intended to be disposable. Now I have a LOT of vintage silver follower AR magazines that still work 40 years later but I'm not sure I'd declare it a better magazine than the AK magazine of the late 60s. Keep in mind they had a functional 30 rounder way back and it took us a couple decades to get that sorted out.
Obviously Colt/Okay improved greatly over the years and even before the introduction of P mags there were some very good options.
The AK magazine is the most over built robust mag in the history of small arms.
When the PMAGs arrived they didn't fit in all lowers and now we have how many PMAG varients and generations?
I just think it's funny that we'll even do the AK magazine vs. AR magazine debate.
Who's up for 1911 magazine vs. Hi Power magazine?
:D
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-12, 21:51
I just think it's funny that we'll even do the AK magazine vs. AR magazine debate.
Who's up for 1911 magazine vs. Hi Power magazine?
:D
Yeah I didn't want to derail this thread into another AK vs. AR thread but couldn't let the above go without question. :p
wild_wild_wes
11-13-12, 22:29
I'm just thankful the showdown in Eastern Europe never happened.
I will second that...in some wargames based on typical Soviet invasion scenarios, each side popped off up to 200 tactical nukes...
Lets see...off the top of my head...original AK design was meant to be stamped, but reject rate from welding rails and heat treat was too high based on their capabilities at the time. Milling facilities formerly dedicated to Moisin Nagant production were pressed into service for the milled receiver. Original drawings specified a threaded trunnion and barrel, but a press fit and a 7mm barrel pin was found to work well and be far less labor intensive to build. Widespread fielding did not occur until the mid fifties, and the AKM came on the scene in 1959. Manufacturing technology had finally improved to the point that the stamped receiver could be made with acceptable scrap rates. Also, sear trip lever and as a result of that, the single hook trigger, plus vented gas block instead of tube were other changes. Various folks like the Chinese, Polish, etc., put the AK gas system on AKM receivers. Yugoslavia apparently felt they needed to be different entirely. 1974 brought the 5.45, and I get fuzzy on the introduction of the 90 deg gas block, narrow stem bolt, various ak 100 folders, etc.
The bolt/operation of the M1 Garand, the selector from the Remington Model 8, the cartridge concept from the STG-44, and a healthy dose of vodka, and the basic design has endured for an amazingly long time.
Or something like that. I have a soft spot for the commie rifle (and also roller lockers) that defies reason and practicality sometimes.
Of course, the Stoner rifle has had a darned impressive run, too.
Lets see...off the top of my head...original AK design was meant to be stamped, but reject rate from welding rails and heat treat was too high based on their capabilities at the time. Milling facilities formerly dedicated to Moisin Nagant production were pressed into service for the milled receiver. Original drawings specified a threaded trunnion and barrel, but a press fit and a 7mm barrel pin was found to work well and be far less labor intensive to build. Widespread fielding did not occur until the mid fifties, and the AKM came on the scene in 1959. Manufacturing technology had finally improved to the point that the stamped receiver could be made with acceptable scrap rates. Also, sear trip lever and as a result of that, the single hook trigger, plus vented gas block instead of tube were other changes. Various folks like the Chinese, Polish, etc., put the AK gas system on AKM receivers. Yugoslavia apparently felt they needed to be different entirely. 1974 brought the 5.45, and I get fuzzy on the introduction of the 90 deg gas block, narrow stem bolt, various ak 100 folders, etc.
The bolt/operation of the M1 Garand, the selector from the Remington Model 8, the cartridge concept from the STG-44, and a healthy dose of vodka, and the basic design has endured for an amazingly long time.
Or something like that.
That pretty much concurs with The Ak47 Story: Evolution of the Kalashnikov Weapons by Edward Clinton Ezell and AK-47 The Grim Reaper by Frank Iannamico.
Geeze that book is now going for $350 on Amazon. :eek:
I have a soft spot for the commie rifle (and also roller lockers) that defies reason and practicality sometimes.
Of course, the Stoner rifle has had a darned impressive run, too.
You probably grew up reading Soldier of Fortune like the rest of us.
sinlessorrow
11-14-12, 00:19
I always find it interesting that the Soviets got the assault rifle right the first time while it took nearly an additional 20 years to for the United States to field a proper assault rifle after wasting over a decade with the misstep called the M14.
You should read how hard everyone tried to get the AR-15 adopted besides our goverment. its crazy how many times JFK told the Navy to quit asking for funding to adopt the rifle.
You should read how hard everyone tried to get the AR-15 adopted besides our goverment. its crazy how many times JFK told the Navy to quit asking for funding to adopt the rifle.
It was my understanding that JFK was a proponent of the AR-15 and that he was instrumental in it's adoption by the Air Force and US Army.
It was my understanding that JFK was a proponent of the AR-15 and that he was instrumental in it's adoption by the Air Force and US Army.
From Wikipedia:
"Curtis LeMay viewed a demonstration of the AR-15 in July 1960. In the summer of 1961, General LeMay had been promoted to the position of USAF Chief of Staff, and requested an order of 80,000 AR-15s for the U.S. Air Force. However under the recommendation of General Maxwell D. Taylor, who advised the Commander in Chief that having two different calibers within the military system at the same time would be problematic, President Kennedy turned down the request."
sinlessorrow
11-14-12, 07:20
It was my understanding that JFK was a proponent of the AR-15 and that he was instrumental in it's adoption by the Air Force and US Army.
JFK turned down numerours requests for funding to adopt the AR-15. This is a very good website to read.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html
wild_wild_wes
11-14-12, 08:28
So that's another reason to dislike Kennedy...
From Wikipedia:
"Curtis LeMay viewed a demonstration of the AR-15 in July 1960. In the summer of 1961, General LeMay had been promoted to the position of USAF Chief of Staff, and requested an order of 80,000 AR-15s for the U.S. Air Force. However under the recommendation of General Maxwell D. Taylor, who advised the Commander in Chief that having two different calibers within the military system at the same time would be problematic, President Kennedy turned down the request."
JFK turned down numerours requests for funding to adopt the AR-15. This is a very good website to read.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html
Must have been AFTER it was adopted that Kennedy and McNamara finally got behind it. I was aware of Kennedy's earlier resistance, I knew several people in the armaments field went to great lengths to undermine (and even sabotage) the rifle.
So that's another reason to dislike Kennedy...
NRA Life member and more conservative than most of todays Republicans. And according to a few sources, had a personally owned M-16 (although not the same one in the picture).
http://imageshack.us/a/img292/5707/jfklttr0561lrgqr6.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img218/9986/jfkzk5.jpg
sinlessorrow
11-14-12, 12:31
NRA Life member and more conservative than most of todays Republicans. And according to a few sources, had a personally owned M-16 (although not the same one in the picture).
http://imageshack.us/a/img292/5707/jfklttr0561lrgqr6.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img218/9986/jfkzk5.jpg
Supposedly Kennedy backed the AR-15 after he was invited to test the rifle out. Before that though he turned down numerous attempts to get it fielded.
Supposedly Kennedy backed the AR-15 after he was invited to test the rifle out. Before that though he turned down numerous attempts to get it fielded.
That sounds about like what I was remembering, except I was familiar with his "specific" earlier rejections. I knew LeMay was backing it and pretty much everyone else was trying to sandbag it.
There is a picture somewhere of Kennedy shooting "his" AR-15 (early M-16) on the back of a boat. I think it was in an issue of the Rifleman from the very early 70s.
wild_wild_wes
11-14-12, 22:21
NRA Life member and more conservative than most of todays Republicans. And according to a few sources, had a personally owned M-16 (although not the same one in the picture).
That's all true. My objections to him are based on the mantle of "American Royalty" the Kennedys came to represent, and the way the Press fawned over him.
I always find it interesting that the Soviets got the assault rifle right the first time while it took nearly an additional 20 years to for the United States to field a proper assault rifle after wasting over a decade with the misstep called the M14.
Bureaucracy and cronyism and the same old shit, that's why.
That's all true. My objections to him are based on the mantle of "American Royalty" the Kennedys came to represent, and the way the Press fawned over him.
But is that JFKs fault or Joe Kennedy's fault? Honestly in the entire family there only seemed to be two that were worth a shit and somebody shot both of them.
That isn't to say that I don't have some misgivings about JFK and several regarding Bobby Kennedy.
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