View Full Version : first pistol, P99, M&P9, XD9
MurtaughF3
11-16-12, 16:01
I was planing on waiting awhile since I just got a Colt 6920, but the BX has all 9mm on sale. I've narrowed it down to the following 3. Please no suggestions on different pistols or calibers I chose the 9mm and am sticking with it. Your input on which one would be better and why. Prices are in the ballpark.
Springfield XD $412 OTD
Smith&Wesson M&P9 $ 461, updated couple hours after original post, just found out about s&w military rebate, bring total to $411
Walther P99 $not sure yet, I know it will be a little higher
I handled both the M&P9 and XD today, liked they way both felt, preferred the M&P9. Thought the XD was a little front heavy if that makes sense. They didn't have a P99 in stock and won't have one by the time the sale goes off. The sites were the same on both just the plane jane. Probably upgrade down the road. Essentially the 2 I held today are the same, just different manufactures.
Suggestions are welcome.
M&P without a doubt. Reliable, easy to work on, and good aftermarket support.
Please no suggestions on different pistols or calibers...
Suggestions are welcome.
:confused:
M&P without a doubt. Reliable, easy to work on, and good aftermarket support.
x2 on the M&P. I think if you spent a little time reading/searching the forum, you will find this to be the preferred pistol when only considering the three you listed (although if one isn't even available you really only have a choice to make between two).
The M&P is popular with LE agencies and competition shooters, so it seems like you are covering both sides of the fence.
alvincullumyork
11-16-12, 17:16
I'm not an expert and I'm pretty biased having only owned and shot the M&P 9mm but I did do a lot of research before buying my S&W.
The M&P is being used by several large departments and agencies which means that it has gone through a bit of testing. The XD to my knowledge isn't fielded by any major organization though a few smaller PDs issue them. I'm not sure about the p99 in this regard.
The XDs have several know and fairly well documented weak points that are no goes for a lot of people. Extractors break, grip safety stops the gun up during one handed operations, the list goes on but it's been a while since I did my research. If you search around here for a while you will see them crop up.
Some M&P have some accuracy issues but the number of people able to shoot well enough to notice is relatively low and I think this point gets blown a little out of proportion because of the internet (not saying it doesn't happen just probably not as much as is reported.) Some people complain about the trigger but I think a lot of people are just used to the Glock trigger with its more forceful reset and this issue can be mitigated with APEX parts. It has great durability and reliability comes with decent factory sights and adjustable back straps.
So in short my vote goes to the M&P or a Glock or do more research on the p99 or maybe a PPQ.
Find a range that rents guns and try them all. I prefer the XD9. GH
I was planing on waiting awhile since I just got a Colt 6920, but the BX has all 9mm on sale. I've narrowed it down to the following 3. Please no suggestions on different pistols or calibers I chose the 9mm and am sticking with it. Your input on which one would be better and why. Prices are in the ballpark.
Springfield XD $412 OTD
Smith&Wesson M&P9 $ 461
Walther P99 $not sure yet, I know it will be a little higher
I handled both the M&P9 and XD today, liked they way both felt, preferred the M&P9. Thought the XD was a little front heavy if that makes sense. They didn't have a P99 in stock and won't have one by the time the sale goes off. The sites were the same on both just the plane jane. Probably upgrade down the road. Essentially the 2 I held today are the same, just different manufactures.
Suggestions are welcome.
Have you shot any or all of them? If so, which do you like better?
For the M&P, parts availability and aftermarket support is excellent, except for fitted barrels which don't seem to be as readily available as you would think they would be. Do the other two stack up in that regard?
Personally, of your choices, I would probably choose M&P. As Grant has said in the past, it's a well designed pistol. It does have its flaws though, not the least of which is the accuracy problem.
I've shot a couple of XDs and as I've stated before, they were fine. It's just not my first choice. Grip safety on the XD is something I don't really care for as it's unnecessary to me, but you could make a worse choice.
I've never run the P99 so don't really have any opinion on it. But I would look at parts availability and aftermarket support before I bought a Walther. And out of curiosity, why not the PPQ instead?
If you're looking for a striker fired 9x19, concentrate on the G17/19, M&P, and PPQ.
polymorpheous
11-16-12, 19:13
Skip the XD.
It is not a reliable defensive pistol.
Of your choices, I'd got for the M&P.
MurtaughF3
11-16-12, 19:19
:confused:
x2 on the M&P. I think if you spent a little time reading/searching the forum, you will find this to be the preferred pistol when only considering the three you listed (although if one isn't even available you really only have a choice to make between two).
The M&P is popular with LE agencies and competition shooters, so it seems like you are covering both sides of the fence.
sorry to be confusing, in the first part i was talking about no other suggestions other than the ones listed, and in the second part i was talking about of the 3 mentioned,
thanks for all the comments, i am defiantly liking the mp for sure, it felt the best. the range here charges $15 to rent by the hour, i guess i can rent all 3 and see which one i like the best. the sale ends wednesday, so if i can't come to a conclusion by then i'll just wait untill the next sale, but to be honest, i'm leaning towards the mp
Skip the XD.
It is not a reliable defensive pistol.
Of your choices, I'd got for the M&P.
Why do you say the XD is not reliable?? Mine has never missed a beat! GH
I have the m&p9, the p99as in 9, and use to have an xd in 40.
Skip the xd. I can't really explain it but from my experience and others I know it just doesn't shoot the same as other pistols. I found my accuracy went down if I went from any pistol to it or if I got good at it going to anything else. I thought it was the high bore axis but I don't have the issue with sig.
That being said the p99 is a neat pistol, really strange in the since it is a striker fired sa/da pistol with a decocker. Kinda light so you feel the recoil more than the m&p and it uses that different style mag release which I personally like. Between it and the m&p though I'd say the M&P just because it is a good bit cheaper and has more options for parts, upgrades, etc.
polymorpheous
11-16-12, 19:54
Why do you say the XD is not reliable?? Mine has never missed a beat! GH
How many law enforcement agencies do you know of that run this platform?
That is a huge clue.
Also, someone in this thread already stated why it is a no go for a defensive pistol.
M&P. If it's recently manufactured, the trigger may be passable, and it will probably have the redesigned barrel. Mine is an older Pro model and quite accurate with the stock barrel if I do my part.
FWIW, I heard that the USDA has 1811s that carry XDs. I owned an XD45T for a while. The trigger reset is stupidly far forward almost to the point of completely letting go of the trigger. The takedown lever also stuck out too far and drove its upper corner into my support hand thumb under recoil. Sold it.
[QUOTE=polymorpheous;1444088]How many law enforcement agencies do you know of that run this platform?
That is a huge clue.
What law enforcement agencies do does NOT impress me. I could care less what they do. Sorry if I offend you but a badge doesn't make you smarter or more qualified than me. It only means you have a badge. GH
Leonidas24
11-16-12, 22:47
[QUOTE=polymorpheous;1444088]How many law enforcement agencies do you know of that run this platform?
That is a huge clue.
What law enforcement agencies do does NOT impress me. I could care less what they do. Sorry if I offend you but a badge doesn't make you smarter or more qualified than me. It only means you have a badge. GH
With all due respect to our LE community that we have here on M4C, I am going to have to agree with your statement. There's a lot of stupid decisions that are made by the acquisitions departments of several LE agencies and departments out there, but it still has certain impacts. What's good about the fact that there are agencies and departments that employ guns like the M&P and Glock is that they're tested in the field on a daily basis and it gives us lowly civilian shooters a chance to look at some legitimate feedback.
My gripes with the XD platform are the grip safety, and that's simply because it's an unnecessary weak link that could be avoided; the high bore-axis; and this is my personal opinion, but, I think they look like expensive Hi-Points.
I drink the M&P kool-aid religiously. OP, you won't be disappointed with one.
I have owned the XD and the M&P. I no longer own an XD and I carry the M&P daily. Even with the XD as an "extra" gun that I didn't rely on for self defense I had problems with the XD grip safety locking up when it had sand lodged in it and I decided to get rid of it. YMMV
polymorpheous
11-17-12, 02:59
What law enforcement agencies do does NOT impress me. I could care less what they do. Sorry if I offend you but a badge doesn't make you smarter or more qualified than me. It only means you have a badge. GH
You completely missed the point and are way off base with that statement.
Wearing a badge does not mean that individual officers and agents choose their own sidearms.
The XD has been vetted by many large departments and has failed that vetting.
It does NOT meet reliability standards.
I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is fact.
Try running a search here and on Lightfighter.
M&P, great ergonomics, but, for those capable of shooting accurately, many still have serious issues that S&W now recognize. But, if your just a 7 yard blaster, you'll never notice that occasional high flier :confused:
At $411, nothing beats the M&P for that price.
C4
I never understood why we judge a guns worth by how many LE agencies adopt it. We roast them mercilessly for picking Bushmasters, Oly Arms, Rock River, or Armalite rifles with Eotechs instead of Colt or BCM ( not that I don't agree) with Aimpoints....but turn and trust their judgement on pistols...
Pages and pages of folks saying how military and LE aren't always gun guys, or procurement systems are not set up to pick the best performer (true enough statements). Then we as a community here turn around and use what they purchase as a metric for what we buy?
I see a lot of students fire a lot of rounds and I have seen more XDs than M&Ps in the last year. I have not had a SINGLE guy have a SINGLE problem with an XD. Infer what you will by my lack of the same statement for the M&P. I don't like shooting the XD much myself but I'll definitely take that experience over a bunch of "no agencies field them" posts on the Internet. I don't want a grip safety. I don't care for the bore axis personally. I like the way the new fancy Rob Leatham XD 5.whatever shoots a lot thought, and know a lot of guys who shoot the crap out of them (20+K annually) and love them.
If you like the M&P or the XD...buy it. Either will likely serve you as well as the other. The Walther is the best gun on the list, good luck finding a deal on a P99 though. A PPQ on the other hand...my favorite polymer handgun on the market, hands down. LAV liked mine enough to pick one up as his training gun and has shared his findings here as well.
polymorpheous
11-17-12, 08:25
I never understood why we judge a guns worth by how many LE agencies adopt it. We roast them mercilessly for picking Bushmasters, Oly Arms, Rock River, or Armalite rifles with Eotechs instead of Colt or BCM ( not that I don't agree) with Aimpoints....but turn and trust their judgement on pistols...
Pages and pages of folks saying how military and LE aren't always gun guys, or procurement systems are not set up to pick the best performer (true enough statements). Then we as a community here turn around and use what they purchase as a metric for what we buy.
I see a lot of students fire a lot of rounds and I have seen more XDs than M&Ps in the last year. I have not had a SINGLE guy have a SINGLE problem with an XD. I don't like shooting them much myself but I'll definitely take that experience over a bunch of "no agencies field them" posts on the Internet.
If you like the M&P or the XD...buy it. Either will likely serve you as well as the other.
Do most agencies vet their patrol rifles like they do their sidearms?
My first hand experience with 3 larger depts, we did put together the major players at the time and put them through the paces. I know this varies though, since I have also worked at a dept whose rifle program was basically buy what you want and you can carry it if it passes a 150rnd course of fire...I've found this policy to apply to sidearms as well with smaller an part time depts.
I have no doubt that the M&P will get the most recommendations. It is more popular, and has many more aftermarket accessories available for it. Though personally, I don't like the gamble of buying a brand new pistol, and possibly having to pay hundreds more to fix an accuracy issue, because the manufacturer refuses to fix a well known issue in the product line. This doesn't inspire confidence IMO, and added to the rust issues, sear issues, striker issues, mag release issues, etc., that it has had in the past, it makes me wonder what the terms "tested" and "proven" really mean, or how much input, value, or impact they should have when making purchasing decisions.
Pistols with a large aftermarket seem to be more capable of forgiveness by people (for some reason), than pistols that do not. I imagine that if the P99 had that many issues in the past, and one that was still ongoing, NOBODY would recommend it, and if the XD had as many aftermarket options available as a Glock or 1911, I'm assuming that it would automatically become a better, more easily recommendable pistol. Grip safety and all.
The P99 has no design related issues. It has been winning agency contracts since it was released in 1997, so it is "tested" and "proven" as much or more than any other police pistol. Just the German NRW Police contract called for over 40k P99 pistols.
As for the OP, maybe it would help if we knew why out of all pistols, these three were the ones that were chosen. The only similarities that all three share, is that they are polymer 9mm pistols.
Polymorpheus:
I hope not. But I go to a lot of them (a lot...) and more often than not its what the Chief has a hard on for or whoever gives them the best trade allowance.
So to answer your question...I don't know. Do you? Is there some standard for handgun evaluation that I don't know that doesn't apply to rifles across the board? One more reason I take adoption info from LE as "neat but not necessarily useful" info.
Walther is a prime example of a company with a Golden Goose that can't figure out how to get it down the the market...but hopefully that will change soon. The P99 and PPQ are awesome guns.
At $411, nothing beats the M&P for that price.
C4
I HEARD OF A NEW COMPANY CALLED "GLOCK" or "GLOOK" OR SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY MAKING A GUN. I HAVE NOT HEARD OF THEM BUT MAYBE YOU HAVE? MAYBE MORE INFO AT SHOT SHOW? I AM VERY EXCITED ABOUT "GLOCK" AND THEIR "MODEL 17 AND 19" IF THE RUMOR IS TRUE!
:lol:
I couldn't resist that one bro...
...more often than not its what the Chief has a hard on for or whoever gives them the best trade allowance.
Case in point: a large, metropolitan department near me went with the M&P because they have always been a S&W agency. They went with S&W rifles for the same reason.
I have a good friend who is the lead FI in very large Police Dept. that is going to adopt a new pistol. They already know it's gonna be a XXXXX, cause the Chief already said so. He doesn't really care which one, as long as it's an XXXXXXX brand. It is NOT the brand I would pick for cost effectiveness or performance.
I realize that my rant has sucked me into one of those stupid threads we used to just lock and tell people "we talk about those all the time. use the search."
Buy whatever, they all work.
polymorpheous
11-17-12, 11:44
Polymorpheus:
I hope not. But I go to a lot of them (a lot...) and more often than not its what the Chief has a hard on for or whoever gives them the best trade allowance.
So to answer your question...I don't know. Do you? Is there some standard for handgun evaluation that I don't know that doesn't apply to rifles across the board? One more reason I take adoption info from LE as "neat but not necessarily useful" info.
Walther is a prime example of a company with a Golden Goose that can't figure out how to get it down the the market...but hopefully that will change soon. The P99 and PPQ are awesome guns.
I don't know.
I DO know that in Milwaukee our police chief came from Springfield, MA.
Soon after he made chief, he switched the duty weapons from Glock 22's to M&P 40's.
Fancy that!
ETA: They also went to the M&P-15 as a patrol rifle.
The MPD TEU, (tactical unit), have BCM 11.5" carbines.
I HEARD OF A NEW COMPANY CALLED "GLOCK" or "GLOOK" OR SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY MAKING A GUN. I HAVE NOT HEARD OF THEM BUT MAYBE YOU HAVE? MAYBE MORE INFO AT SHOT SHOW? I AM VERY EXCITED ABOUT "GLOCK" AND THEIR "MODEL 17 AND 19" IF THE RUMOR IS TRUE!
:lol:
I couldn't resist that one bro...
LOL. Yes, a Glock for the same price would be a good deal for certain, but Glock isn't one of the guns listed by the OP! ;)
C4
In regards to M4's comments about trusting PD's and SO's gun selection, I wouldn't put much weight into them either. I do look at the FBI's tests and when a major EU police or Military does a test though as I think their high round count tests are of value.
I also do not like how the XD firearms are setup, but that is a personal thing. If it works for you then great, I just suggest that you run it through several pistol classes.
C4
LE usage certainly does not mean a particular gun is the best option and many agencies can be found using poor choices (such as the Bushmasters mentioned before, I know our agency has had issues with ours). That said, if you have access to the results of large and/or extensive agency testing and/or years of their experience with a particular item - that information is valuable. If a particular gun performed poorly in a propperly conducted test or had documented issues during the time it was in service, it would be wise to avoid that gun unless there was reason to believe the issues had been corrected (ie, rust or striker issue with the M&P). That said, there are also some guns that are in LE service which the agency are pleased with that may not be a particularly good choice for a non-LEO (ie, a Glock with a NY trigger).
All that said, OP - the M&P would be I personal choice of the ones listed with the P99 as very close second. I don't tend to think the XD is quite as bad as some think, I know a number of people with good experience with them, but I don't think it is in the same class as the other two.
MurtaughF3
11-17-12, 23:30
I can't thank everyone enough for there input, it is greatly appreciated. After everything I have read here, other forums, and other sources online I think I will be getting the MP, especially at $410 that is tough to beat. I may not be that hard on on weapons, but I like to hit the range at least twice a month for a few hours at a time. So I will be putting some rounds through it. It might not be the toughest test, but it's a start.
Out of those three I'd get the M&P. I had an early XD in .40 that had 15k mostly trouble free rounds. All of the problems I had were magazine related. After switching to Glock I would not want a gun with that high of a bore axis anymore and agree the grip safety could be in an issue. I was also very impressed with Larry's torture test on the Glock magazines. How do the magazines of those platforms compare?
alvincullumyork
11-18-12, 16:36
I have no doubt that the M&P will get the most recommendations. It is more popular, and has many more aftermarket accessories available for it. Though personally, I don't like the gamble of buying a brand new pistol, and possibly having to pay hundreds more to fix an accuracy issue, because the manufacturer refuses to fix a well known issue in the product line. This doesn't inspire confidence IMO, and added to the rust issues, sear issues, striker issues, mag release issues, etc., that it has had in the past, it makes me wonder what the terms "tested" and "proven" really mean, or how much input, value, or impact they should have when making purchasing decisions.
I really think that the accuracy issue has been blown out of proportion. Should S&W fix the problem, yes. should they design it better, yes (I think Grant has said that there are some design changes coming down the pipe.) But really not very many people can make any kind of shot at 25 yards, much less 8 inches or smaller. It's a surprisingly hard shot for most people. So when the average joe goes out and is all over the place and can't hit the broad side of barn then reads online how the M&P is inaccurate, this must be the reason he can't hit anything. I'm not saying this is you and I am not denying that there is an accuracy issue because several very good shooters have reported the problem in some guns, I just think it is blown out of proportion.
The rust issue to my knowledge was a bad badge of melonite(wrong name for the coating?) that was resolved very quickly and hasn't been an issue since. I live in the Willamette valley, a very humid and rainy place, and I carry a lot and shoot quite a bit in the rain and mud and my gun (I know sample of one) or magazines (sample of two :)) haven't had any rust issues.
The sear and striker issues have been addressed as well although for the life of me I can't remember exactly what was done.
I haven't really heard of any magazine release issues, could you tell me more? As this is my primary (only pistol) I'd like to keep up on any issues that may arise.
Also as far as the XD goes the couple I have shot were fairly accurate as far as I could tell and the triggers weren't to bad. I didn't like the high bore axis though and they seemed to not carry as well for me (different body types/holsters will have different results.)
Again this is just on guy's opinion on the internet so take it with a grain of salt.
Alvin, thats b.s. 25 yd shots should not be difficult for anyone willing to learn trigger control and proper grip. To have a factory gun that's incapable of exceeding the abilities of the shooter is disgusting.
S&w should be ashamed.
alvincullumyork
11-18-12, 17:37
Alvin, thats b.s. 25 yd shots should not be difficult for anyone willing to learn trigger control and proper grip. To have a factory gun that's incapable of exceeding the abilities of the shooter is disgusting.
S&w should be ashamed.
I'm not saying that a dedicated shooter should not be able to make that shot. I'm saying that in my experience most people who shoot can't. Most people struggle with an 8 inch plate at ten yards as well. But then again most people shoot their gun for a total of 200 rounds a year. I think that the vast majority of guns that S&W puts out exceeds the vast majority of most shooters abilities. My pistol has been acceptably accurate for me, though I don't consider myself an extremely accurate pistol shooter. I can make my 8 inch plate at 25 yards about 90% of the time but I have not yet been able to go to a good class and only shoot about 1500 rounds a year (for the last three years).
What I am saying is that, yes there is an accuracy issue, but because of the internet it has been blown out of proportion. Not all guns are effected and the majority aren't.
I think that S&W should be proud of what they have been able to do with the M&P series. It has only been around for only a short amount of time (compared to Glock) and has been adopted by a lot of large agencies and one (maybe two) armies and it has passed their accuracy standards.
A XD is the ONLY firearm I've ever sold. Will never entertain one again. LAV loves the PPQ. M&P has a frame on her that will treat you right. Wait a minute, that was my pickup line that got me slapped a few times! Nothing treats me more right than a G17/19 though.
Magic_Salad0892
11-19-12, 12:08
P99, PPQ, G19.
I'd go with the P99, it's reliable and has the best trigger. The P99 is my favorite 9mm pistol.
beschatten
11-20-12, 21:15
M&P9 = 450$ (If you hunt around)
Apex kit = 100$
Night sights = 70-100$
Each Mag = 30$
Glock 19 = 525-550$
Nightsights = 100$
Each Mag = 20$.
I know you didn't want to hear it OP, but the dollars point to a Glock being a nice alternative if you're confused on which pistol of the 3 to get :dance3:
I haven't really heard of any magazine release issues, could you tell me more? As this is my primary (only pistol) I'd like to keep up on any issues that may arise.
I think it effected the early M&P compact pistols. I don't follow information on the M&P as much as I would if I owned one. S&W fixed this issue a while back.
It was mentioned in post #2 here:
http://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/22153-design-revisions-vs-serial-number-test-fire-date.html
I think that S&W should be proud of what they have been able to do with the M&P series. It has only been around for only a short amount of time (compared to Glock) and has been adopted by a lot of large agencies and one (maybe two) armies and it has passed their accuracy standards.
What were the accuracy standards for those agencies? What military has adopted the M&P 9 as their sidearm? What was the testing procedures and standards? Without knowing the parameters of their testing and seeing the results, it doesn't mean anything. Maybe 8" groups at 25 yards was fine for them. Maybe none ever tested the gun at 15-25 yards. Maybe there was an acceptable variance that others wouldn't find acceptable. My point is maybe a lot of things and without seeing the test results it's impossible to know.
Seanmac1971
11-21-12, 09:46
I have both an XD-9 and an M&P... For what it's worth, I personally prefer the XD for shooting accuracy and the way it feels in my hands. The XD far out performs the M&P when it comes to consistency down range - especially at 15 yds. and beyond. Although not convinced of the need for a grip safety, I have never had any issues with it. I have done a fair amount of training in one hand operations and have never deemed the grip safety to present any kind of limitation.
As for the reference to whether or not many LE agencies issue the XD... that is not a huge issue for me. Many departments issue what has been field tested (worthy consideration) but a second major factor is the cost. Often, an agency will go with the manufacturer that gives them the best deal on the number of guns they are ordering. Thus, the fact that an agency does not issue a particular gun does not necessarily mean that the gun is not dependable or LE worthy.
I am friends with many LE officers and the reality is, I shoot much more frequently than nearly all of them (and better too). Many LE guys only shoot once or twice a year for qualification requirements. The civilians that shoot for recreation generally have much more to offer by way of experienced advice.
The best advice... rent the guns that you are interested in and shoot each one enough to know what you like and which shoots best in your hands.
alvincullumyork
11-21-12, 14:02
What were the accuracy standards for those agencies? What military has adopted the M&P 9 as their sidearm? What was the testing procedures and standards? Without knowing the parameters of their testing and seeing the results, it doesn't mean anything. Maybe 8" groups at 25 yards was fine for them. Maybe none ever tested the gun at 15-25 yards. Maybe there was an acceptable variance that others wouldn't find acceptable. My point is maybe a lot of things and without seeing the test results it's impossible to know.
I think it was the Belgium military (Grant or anyone more knowledgeable can correct me.) And I couldn't tell you those standards and agree with you to an extent. Both you and M4Guru bring up good arguments as to what exactly adoption by a large agency should mean to a buyer. I was more addressing the point that S&W has done well with the M&P line(maybe I should have left out that it passed there accuracy standards.) And like I have said before I am not denying the accuracy issue I just think that it is made out to be a bigger problem than it is.
"I am friends with many LE officers and the reality is, I shoot much more frequently than nearly all of them (and better too). Many LE guys only shoot once or twice a year for qualification requirements. The civilians that shoot for recreation generally have much more to offer by way of experienced advice"
Rumor was our local chief issued an unofficial official order to his officers NOT TO COMPETE IN A MATCH IF THERE WAS NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT CLASS. No one expects a LEO to compete with A-M class IPSC shooters but it didn't look good that the officers were finishing dead last in the matches! The brass should have encouraged his officers to compete and become better qualified!! GH
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