View Full Version : Noveske Flared Forged Lower (FFL) with Magpul M3
Hello,
On the Magpul M3 threads it has been mentioned there is a bit of a fitment issue with the M3 in a FFL.
I wanted to start a thread to gather information on this issue, and hopefully, end up with a tutorial how to modify the mag in order to get proper fitment for 100% function.
Here are some of the posts on the topic:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1434709&postcount=27
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1421155&postcount=124
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1431506&postcount=164
Hopefully we can get some first hand experience and instructions soon.
Thanks,
-john
Gen II lowers were changed earlier this year for the PMAG GEN M3 in the 4700-4800 serial number range.
Serial numbers 4800 and above will fit without any modification.
Earlier lowers have a shelf in the flared section for a magazine with a tab on the rear, unfourtinatly it is slightly narower than the tab on the PMAG GEN M3. I can seat the PMAG GEN M3 with a moderate amount of force in the earlier lowers. I say this not to recommend it, but to show how little needs to be trimmed off just the top corners of the tab to fit.
extrication
11-20-12, 23:40
Todd, would you happen to have a pic of the area to be shaved (Before the shaving becomes a slaughter). Thanks
Buy a chainsaw and you will be GTG. Bought one a week ago and it worked perfect. Not the new fancy one though.
Gen II lowers were changed earlier this year for the PMAG GEN M3 in the 4700-4800 serial number range.
Serial numbers 4800 and above will fit without any modification.
Earlier lowers have a shelf in the flared section for a magazine with a tab on the rear, unfourtinatly it is slightly narower than the tab on the PMAG GEN M3. I can seat the PMAG GEN M3 with a moderate amount of force in the earlier lowers. I say this not to recommend it, but to show how little needs to be trimmed off just the top corners of the tab to fit.
That's cool that you guys did that.
Coming from a ban state I never thought that would matter anyway.
So does that make the older ones collectables now? :p
Todd, would you happen to have a pic of the area to be shaved (Before the shaving becomes a slaughter). Thanks
I'll see about doing one with a few pics to put up on the website.
I'll see about doing one with a few pics to put up on the website.
Excellent, bet a few of us have an interest in this. Thank you.
Skip
Yup, look forward to the pictures. I have a batch of 10 coming in from G&R next week and will need to modify them for my 5xx serial.
Thanks!
-john
I'll see about doing one with a few pics to put up on the website.
Looking forward to this as well. Once I can find some M3's in stock somewhere I'll be purchasing some for my Gen 2 with a SN 2XXX.
filthy phil
11-26-12, 17:08
Buy a chainsaw and you will be GTG. Bought one a week ago and it worked perfect. Not the new fancy one though.
+1. i have a gen1 chainsaw and 5x gen3 pmags. the mag goes up into the lower as far as the gen2 pmags go:D
speaking of pmags: some of my gen 2 and 3 mags the dust cover wont stay put on the top of a mag. even a mag downloaded 2 or 3 rounds:confused:
OK, I got some M3 mags in today and couldn't wait. Here is what I've done.
Todd, it would be great if you could provide feedback on if this is a reasonable approach, and what you consider best practice.
Others, please post pictures of your approach as well.
MODIFICATIONS
It appeared that you could take two approaches. You could either shave off a bit off the overall stop and leave it flush with the spine of the mag or you could try to just shave the edges of it off so it fits inside of the magwell cutout (see DSC_0532).
I attempted the latter. I used a chop saw with a fine woodworking blade. It does not appear you need to go all the way down to the spine of the mag (see DSC_0536).
I figured this way you still get the benefit of the anti-over-insertion feature.
I didn't work too hard at this. It may be possible to cut less material, or do it a different way. But just eyeballing it all ten of my M3s insert cleanly and fall free cleanly from my FFL.
Note I haven't been to the range with them yet.
Thanks.
-john
Picture descriptions:
DSC_0528.JPG Unmodified M3 partially inserted.
DSC_0532.JPG Magwell detail.
DSC_0536.JPG Modification detail.
DSC_0537.JPG Modified M3 inserted.
DSC_0542.JPG L-R: GI mag, M2 mag, modified M3 mag.
extrication
11-26-12, 20:27
Thanks John, nice work.
One more -- different angle, cut detail shot.
-john
You took a lot more than needed off the tab. You could just sand/file the top outside edges down at a 45deg.
You took a lot more than needed off the tab. You could just sand/file the top outside edges down at a 45deg.
OK, cool. Thanks for the info. If someone else could post pictures of a less aggressive mod that works that would be great. Currently all ten of mine are already done as pictured. :-)
-john
Looks like this issue took care of itself :(
David Thomas
03-09-13, 08:41
Looks like this issue took care of itself :(
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
If anyone can get an M3 PMAG, maybe they can remind us of what the issue is.
NoveskeFan
03-09-13, 09:18
If anyone can get an M3 PMAG, maybe they can remind us of what the issue is.
The tab on the M3's interfere with older Noveske Gen II lowers.
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0927_zpsbf3ef763.jpg
After slapping in the mag, you can kinda see where it hits:
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0930_zpsd6769f36.jpg
The tab on the M3's interfere with older Noveske Gen II lowers.
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0927_zpsbf3ef763.jpg
After slapping in the mag, you can kinda see where it hits:
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0930_zpsd6769f36.jpg
Wow. This long, and this is the first picture that actually shows the "issue" in the harsh light of reality. Thank-you! And to think I passed on M3's when they were being made/available because of it. :(
NoveskeFan
03-09-13, 09:51
It sucks to have to mod a magazine so it will drop free, but a couple seconds with a dremel per M3 isn't a deal breaker for me:D
Wow. This long, and this is the first picture that actually shows the "issue" in the harsh light of reality. Thank-you! And to think I passed on M3's when they were being made/available because of it. :(? Todd described it perfectly in the second post of the thread. Is your serial below 4XXX?
? Todd described it perfectly in the second post of the thread. Is your serial below 4XXX?
Good to know I wasn't the only one thinking that. I thought the pics earlier in the thread showed excellent detail as well. I actually saved a few of them to my PC when I read through this thread a while back in case I ever got my hands on some G3's and had to mod them.
At the risk of breaking the 'always mod the cheaper part' rule, I did.
I have a low S/N G2 N4 lower, F1'd no less.
I had to ask myself is the real problem the mag or the lower? It's the lower, evidenced by the fact the new lowers have been fixed, obviously.
So instead of grinding up a bunch of mags, I very easily modded my lower.
Using a couple different dremel bits, a very steady hand and some Alumablack, I fixed the real problem. It turned out perfect. As in holy crap, that looks completely machined on purpose. And the Alumablack is a dead match too - it looks perfect. I was a bit nervous, but I'm so glad I didn't jack around with 40+ mags as a bandaid.
It is a very MINOR, very EASY adjustment. Fix the source IMO.
? Todd described it perfectly in the second post of the thread. Is your serial below 4XXX?
Both of mine are, yes, but I don't have any Gen 3 mags.
So instead of grinding up a bunch of mags, I very easily modded my lower.
Using a couple different dremel bits, a very steady hand and some Alumablack, I fixed the real problem. It turned out perfect.
Ahem.... pics.
-john
Does anyone know if Noveske will fix/mod the low serial # lowers via warranty, recall, or the like?
Ask Noveske.
Personally, I would/will be modifying the mag.
Ahem.... pics.
-john
Sorry for the delay and the shitty pic - tried to get some lighting to show some depth. Keep in mind this is almost impossible to see in daylight without being magnified and lit up like this.
The M3 mags fit great and even have "play" like they should. The mag should be able to move a little bit vs. being wedged and forced just enough to get the catch to engage.
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/213/fflmod01s.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3793/fflmod02s.jpg
Does anyone know if Noveske will fix/mod the low serial # lowers via warranty, recall, or the like?Recall??? Lowers were out well before M3 mags.
Pretty easy mag fix unless you really want to cut through your anodizing.
I'm waiting to hear back from Noveske to see if they offer any sort of service to retro-fit the lower to accommodate the M3s.
Why would they do this? How is any of this onus on them? :confused:
Why shouldn't MAGPUL recall their frooty mags?
Why would they do this? How is any of this onus on them? :confused:
Agreed.
It was in Noveske's best interest to change their lowers GOING FORWARD on the M3 release. It's ridiculous to demand they change a sold product to support, a then, future product from another manu.
LOL.
Why shouldn't MAGPUL recall their frooty mags?
IMO, Magpul is perfectly in the right on this one. Their priority is fitting a mil-spec receiver and fitting it well. They cannot control what an unlimited number of lower designers do outside of a mil-spec magwell.
The whole thing was just a case of bad timing. But it's an easy fix.
In my opinion this should be an enduser's choice to take the lower to a machinist or gunsmith... get the mod done, and then ship it off to US Anodizing for refinish for example.
Noveske is busy enough without baby sitting this nonsense.
I edited my post above to ague this point, I guess we got our timing crossed:
Should they?
I believe they should as I don't know of any other lower from a major company that needs to be modified to accommodate the M3 and therefor I argue that Noveske should provide some sort of service. I'm not even saying it should be free.
I full recognize that the Gen2 lower is not a milspec lower and I suspect Magpul engineered their mags to fit milspec guns. Nor am I saying Noveske should be able to predict the future in order to accommodate mags that are built after they build their lowers. However, if a gun company makes lowers that are far enough out of milspec that they will not accommodate mags when other gun companies mag wells will, I feel this is something that they should address.
For example, if I bought a Colt, BCM, LMT, Spikes, Aero, etc. lower I would not be having this issue. (that I know about) Therefore Noveske has done something to their lowers which put them a tad too far out of milspec when they designed their flaired lower.
It's my understanding that the M3 was created to accommodate more compatibility across weapon platforms, not less.
You're digging a hole dude.
NoveskeFan
03-13-13, 15:14
I full recognize that the Gen2 lower is not a milspec lower...
Therefore Noveske has done something to their lowers which put them a tad too far out of milspec when they designed their flaired lower.
:suicide: Say what?
You're digging a whole dude.
Not just half a dude? :p
Not just half a dude? :p
No, he's digging the whole hole, not half. :D
Not just half a dude? :p
Ugh. I'm still LOL'ing. Took me a minute too. Ah, yes. I needed that.
Ugh. I'm still LOL'ing. Took me a minute too. Ah, yes. I needed that.
I mean... you can't call a guy gay just because he's got a different opinion on a subject! :D
Wow.
YES. WOW.
Do you think the world revolves around you? As soon as Noveske hooks you up, guess what? They have to hook up 4,000 - 6,000 other people for this "issue." Do you have any clue as to what kind of undertaking that is?
You do realize how absurd this sounds, right? Bringing Noveske's customer service into question over this? WOW.
What 'company' sold this to you may I ask? GunBroker?
The most I can recommend is trying to contact Todd on here and see what he has to say.
For a fee, with owners paying overnight shipping both ways, I suppose they could set up a jig and make the necessary cuts. Obviously, owner would have to agree to a release form of some sort. It would be up to the owner then to refinish as desired.
And you'd probably looking at a 'as time permits' backlog type of thing as many people would be flooding Noveske with assembled lowers that would need to be unassembled, thus the release form. I don't see it happening.
However, I guess I got unlucky as the company I bought it from sent me one that is well below #8000.Is it below 4XXX????
NoveskeFan
03-13-13, 17:31
I didn't realize I was stating something that was not obvious. The Noveske GenII N4 lower receiver has a flared magazine well, and integral trigger guard. This is not milspec.
This is Milspec:
I understand what mil spec is. I was pointing out YOUR contradiction.:rolleyes:
...
I full recognize that the Gen2 lower is not a milspec lower ... However, if a gun company makes lowers that are far enough out of milspec that they will not accommodate mags when other gun companies mag wells will, I feel this is something that they should address.
For example, if I bought a Colt, BCM, LMT, Spikes, Aero, etc. lower I would not be having this issue. (that I know about) Therefore Noveske has done something to their lowers which put them a tad too far out of milspec when they designed their flaired lower....
You are comparing mil spec lowers to a "custom" lower.
Too busy to provide good customer service? I understand it is a sellers market right now, but I'm still paying with my hard earned $$$ and still have a variety of brands to choose from. And with my purchase I expect to be treated fairly by the companies' customer service.
Yes I may end up having a machinist or gunsmith do this, which I understand.
Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. I bought this receiver after the M3s came out. It is a brand new unassembled receiver, and still is. However, I guess I got unlucky as the company I bought it from sent me one that is well below #4800. So I'm being unreasonable to ask if Noveske is able to mod my receiver to be like the ones they currently sell?
Wow.
Yes, you are being unreasonable. Why not fix your magazine? Why is it Noveske's fault that their product was not designed to interface with something that came out AFTER their product? Warranty work is for a DEFECT IN CRAFTSMANSHIP. If your lower wouldn't accept magazines out when it came out, THEN it would be an issue. This is like me wanting Nissan to replace the rims on my 370Z because I want to run a wider tire, say, 305/30/19 that came out last month only in that size, and is all the rage on the track. Nonsense.
jerrysimons
03-13-13, 18:43
Too busy to provide good customer service? I understand it is a sellers market right now, but I'm still paying with my hard earned $$$ and still have a variety of brands to choose from. And with my purchase I expect to be treated fairly by the companies' customer service.
Yes I may end up having a machinist or gunsmith do this, which I understand.
Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. I bought this receiver after the M3s came out. It is a brand new unassembled receiver, and still is. However, I guess I got unlucky as the company I bought it from sent me one that is well below #4800. So I'm being unreasonable to ask if Noveske is able to mod my receiver to be like the ones they currently sell?
Wow.
I understand your frustration, need me to take it off your hands? :D
Seriously though, pm if interested in selling...
Low 4XXX may be SOL but double-check. 4800 is not a hard cutoff by any means.
Look at the width of the notch compared to the trigger guard. If the widest part of the notch (further up the magwell) is about equal to the trigger guard you have the smaller one. If the smallest part of the notch (right at magwell exit) is about equal to the trigger guard (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/24/ytaqypus.jpg) you have the larger notch.
So I'm being unreasonable to ask if Noveske is able to mod my receiver to be like the ones they currently sell?
No, not to ask it of them.
You're being unreasonable because your "...I expect to be treated fairly..." is based of the assumption that you've been somehow treated UNfairly. You have not.
Particularly since you clearly haven't asked, yet; for some reason you're going on as if you were somehow already told to pound sand...might want to do take the time to ASK them, first, if for no other reason than to give them opportunity to ANSWER you, instead of geting all pouty and spouting some pretty glaring dog-legs in the "logic" behind your position. EX:
...if I bought a Colt, BCM, LMT, Spikes, Aero, etc. lower I would not be having this issue.
"If my mother had a dick, she wouldn't be my mother." AWEsome... always a hoot to see an emotional argument masquerading as a technical one.
1) Stop puling over it here, 2) go ASK them, and 3) stop posting in this thread until you receive Noveske's response to your inquiry.
You are required to give them a reasonable chance to fail or succeed PRIOR to posting as if you've already been failed, which is the tone you've taken.
Good as Gold
02-28-21, 15:01
Can't believe I'm reviving this 8 year old topic, but I have never looked into this issue as I didn't use any M3's until the last few years.
Do you still have those pictures of what you did to the mags so they fit the Noveske lower? I can't see any pics detailing what you did, and before I got and chop all these mags I thought I'd ask...
Many thanks,
-Tyler
I don’t think I have pictures anymore. It’s not very complicated, the tab just needs to be a little narrower at the top.
Good as Gold
03-03-21, 11:49
I don’t think I have pictures anymore. It’s not very complicated, the tab just needs to be a little narrower at the top.
Thanks for the reply, Todd. I think I got it figured out.
This is what I did, a second or two with a sander and mags fit.
https://i.imgur.com/AfAoMnX.jpg
I don’t think I have pictures anymore. It’s not very complicated, the tab just needs to be a little narrower at the top.
Brings back memories doesn't it?! I know it does for me.
It feels like a lifetime ago, but yes, lots of good memories.
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