View Full Version : Is there a polite way to tell someone they bought a piece of crap AR?
Ok I had been talking with a friend about purchasing an AR. Today he came and told me he bought an AR. My first thought is sweet, but then he told me what he bought, a Bushmaster C15 556/.22 combo with two uppers from Dick's. I tried to be nice and tell him I would give him some classes on shooting and talked a little about mil spec AR features, but didn't tell him he screwed up getting the setup. So how do I break it to him? Just be straight up and tell him, or go shooting with him, let him shoot my BCM and let him come to the conclusion on his own? Just curious if others have had this same thing happen to them and how they handled it.
It'll probably be fine for the 100 rounds a year he puts through it. I say you don't spoil his party and let him think that he has a good "SHTF rifle" for when the inevitable Zombie Apocalypse happens.
Ok I had been talking with a friend about purchasing an AR. Today he came and told me he bought an AR. My first thought is sweet, but then he told me what he bought, a Bushmaster C15 556/.22 combo with two uppers from Dick's. I tried to be nice and tell him I would give him some classes on shooting and talked a little about mil spec AR features, but didn't tell him he screwed up getting the setup. So how do I break it to him? Just be straight up and tell him, or go shooting with him, let him shoot my BCM and let him come to the conclusion on his own? Just curious if others have had this same thing happen to them and how they handled it.
Some people learn the hard way.my exs first ar was a s&w sport model with nothing mil spec,shoots straight still functions just fine.since he already bought it i would go shoot it with him let him shoot yours and explain the differences.he might or might not care really.or he may sell it and get a rifle from a better company.i personally build my own so I know what's in it
Why would you tell someone to buy a POS?
Good point IG I thought the title read a little funny too.
Why would you tell someone to buy a POS?
Lol sorry change made. Original post was done on my phone
What is with these type of threads. Since when do people need to come to the Internet to learn how to communicate with other people?
If you want to tell him, tell him.
He may never figure it out or care for that matter.
I've come to find out that there is no easy way. A local forum I frequent is chock full of guys that love DTI, CMMG, BM, DPMS, RRA and the like. It's hopeless. Unless they shoot it enough to find out they made a mistake, you'll never convince anyone. You're better off trying to convince them that their girlfriend is a fat prostitute than their favorite AR is a pos.
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
Don't get me started. We literally just had that conversation on another forum. I just had to ignore the thread because it was so full of wtf.
jonconsiglio
11-18-12, 15:54
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
No shit.... You know how I feel about that one.
I am surprised that you would come to this forum to ask that question. Almost daily someone comes here to post about their new AR and are subsequently berated for purchasing a sub-par AR. If you are looking for polite, you have come to the wrong place. Only tough love here.
+1 on just not saying anything
I have a guy who just bought an M&P Sport over a Colt I recommended because the store had it in stock NOW. I like the Sports just fine, I think they're the best deal for under 700 from a mfg out there right now, they aren't milspec but I've seen 4 that seemed to work just fine and don't have the tell-tale issues of DPMS, RRA, etc. That doesn't mean I'd recommend them heavily, but to some people it's a good option.
Fact is, that Bushmaster will probably work fine for him. Not everyone should drive a Ferrari. I've found that about 10% of people listen to AR advice at all, and there is no sense telling them otherwise pre or post purchase.
"Is there a polite way to tell someone they bought a piece of crap AR?"
Depends on why you are telling them. If you are just rubbing in that yours is better, its pointless. If you are telling them as a friend, try educating them, and let them understand themselves.
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
Without getting into many details, I was on a call where a 16 YOA female put a 12 gauge against her chest and shot herself. It probably took 15 or 20 minutes to get her to the hospital where she died on the table. This was an upper chest contact shot with birdshot as the ammo. If birdshot can't stop a 16 YOA female who is upset about a breakup, it isn't going to stop anyone motivated to kill you when used at distance.
Submariner
11-18-12, 16:16
Ask your friend if he has seen this:
Larry Vickers on setting up a carbine. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKD-CmX4zQ)
By seeing LAV's recommended set up, he might start to think about his choice.
Heavy Metal
11-18-12, 16:29
A friend of mine called me today and asked me if he should get the SIG AR at Wal-Mart over the 6920 as his first because it was 200 cheaper and had Magpul furniture on it.
I told him to pay the extra money and get the Colt. The furniture was a nice but not a need to have thing. When you buy a rifle, first and foremost, you are buying the guts. He didn't like it but he finally agreed I was right.
I told him if he could ask Larry Vickers which of the two to get, he would be asked in turn if he needed a piss test, GUARENTEED!!! The light finally came on.
If you want to get experimental, that's fine, just not for your first and only AR. The SIG may be an ok rife but I would not want to bet the farm on it as it is as of yet unproven on the market.
At least he was NOT considering the DPMS and the Bushmaster.
I find that most people I have had similar discussions after their purchase were not very receptive...up to and including guys I work with (LE).
I tend to agree with the post that said it will do fine for the 100 rds a year he fires.
Heavy Metal
11-18-12, 16:44
After the purchase, they are looking for validation. You have to stop stupid before it shits.
After the fact, nod, smile politely and hope you are around when their cost-cutter special shits the bed so you can at least get a "I told you so!" out of the deal.
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
It IS devestating...to the bird that gets shot.
OP, who cares? Your buddy's money, his call to make. He'll either shoot it a few times a year and it'll be just fine, or he'll shoot it a lot and decide he needs a better AR.
Ok I had been talking with a friend about purchasing an AR. Today he came and told me he bought an AR. My first thought is sweet, but then he told me what he bought, a Bushmaster C15 556/.22 combo with two uppers from Dick's. I tried to be nice and tell him I would give him some classes on shooting and talked a little about mil spec AR features, but didn't tell him he screwed up getting the setup. So how do I break it to him? Just be straight up and tell him, or go shooting with him, let him shoot my BCM and let him come to the conclusion on his own? Just curious if others have had this same thing happen to them and how they handled it.
How about you just mind your own ****ing business, and as your "friend" shoots his gun and it eventually fails for (insert typical reason here), and he comes to you asking why and what he should do to repair it, HELP HIM LEARN. Some people need to DO to learn.
No need to be a condescending prick because you think you bought a better tool then someone else.
FlyingHunter
11-18-12, 16:59
I think there is a more important issue here. We (2nd Amendment community) need more, not less, people on our team. I believe we should focus on encouraging their participation in the community. Help them learn SAFETY FIRST. Then skill development, maybe join the NRA or a local shooting club/competition, and help them sense our desire to be inclusive regarding their foray into our sport. If they learn to enjoy the gun ownership experience, like any sport, they will grow in their knowledge and desire for more high end equipment. While their choice may not have been ideal, or even good, if the choice is already made, let it be and encourage. If it's a real POS, they will get an early education in FTF, FTE, drills etc...and move onward and upward to better equipment. There are more non gun owners than owners...we are a minority. Embrace, encourage, coach up, join our ranks...the equipment will follow.
number1olddog
11-18-12, 17:17
I do agree 110% with this!!! When I go to my local gun range which I have been going to for years it is nice to see new people getting their range cards and even year memberships even though when I look over on the table and see a DPMS laying there.
mikelowrey
11-18-12, 17:17
IF I were you, as a friend I would let him know that he bought a not very good option but that you wish him the best with it, tell him that you will even teach him some basics, but as a friend that you are you would recommend X or Y. Sometimes that's what friends are for, they need to hear it and I rather tell him straight to the face that play it around him.
This what I usually say.
And then you can see a typical response. :rolleyes:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9744707&postcount=32
FChen17213
11-18-12, 18:02
At this point, I say we shouldn't care about people buying DPMSs and Bushmasters. Who cares? If he or she wants to get a POS that will fail, let them.
I know someone who never shoots tell me that he just bought another Bushmaster and that he was all ready for any SHTF situation. What did I say? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It isn't my job to educate him or tell him that he has a POS. Since he doesn't really shoot, his gun probably won't do him any good anyway. The way I see it? It isn't any of my business and help usually isn't appreciated anyway.
Support your friend! Help him keep his gun running. It is important not to let Internet logic influence your decision making, don't rub his face in his mistake. Teach, assist, and be a blessing to him! Rude people make poor friends and drive away new shooters. Don't be an obstacle to him staying in the shooting community. :nono:
If he's a no-it-all, screw him. If he's willing to listen/learn, explain the differences and value-added parts. I'm the type of person who will save, save, save until I can afford the best (best is subjective).
Dustin Cantrell
11-18-12, 18:25
Shoot and train with him. Help him with his gun and educate him along the way. Don't do it in a condescending manner. When he's ready for another rifle, help him select one based on his needs or help him select components and build it.
The way I see it, the more commonplace guns get, the better for our 2A rights.
+1 to all the guys that say mind your own business and let him run it.
As a range RSO anytime I see a guy at the range running a Bushy or other "lessor" AR I still treat them with respect until they show me a reason not to. At the range I'm concerned with safety #1 and everything else after that. I WANT people to shoot. I want people to like the sport. Coming across as arrogant about whatever they bought is not a way to get new people into the culture. If they decide to stick with it and do more than shoot targets from the bench at the range, then it's time to gently guide them toward the light.
StevieJ309
11-18-12, 19:22
No because they will almost always take it as a personal attack on their judgement. I've learned that all you can do is share your knowledge when asked and let them live with their decision. Ten Mile and Dustin gave good advice in just being there to assist and teach them as they need it.
How about you just mind your own ****ing business
No need to be a condescending prick because you think you bought a better tool then someone else.
There was no intent to be a condescending prick. That is why it said is there a polite way. If there is none than nothing would be said. Who sounds like a condescending prick here?
That was the plan, to show him to shoot, how to run drills and teach him more about the platform. If something breaks show him how to fix it.
We have had many threads like this and in the end no good comes if it. If they don't want to listen nothing you say will change their minds. Its just like idiots who recommend birdshot because of the devastating wounds.:rolleyes:
moment of truth and humility....
The guy that taught the CCW class I attended told the class that a shotgun with birdshot was the best home defense firearm to have. I actually believed him and even said it here on this forum one day. IG basically called me an idiot and it made me mad...let's face it, no one likes being called an idiot. Then I did what I should have done long before....I did some research, hoping to find something to use in my defense. What I found is that I was in fact an idiot. So....IG maybe your public relations skills are a little rough around the edges....but you still deserve the credit you deserve. Thanks for making me think.....
now back to normal programming
Just tell him he's an idiot. He will either get mad and learn something, or get mad and stay an idiot.
Suwannee Tim
11-18-12, 19:54
Why don't you just leave him alone? I see folks with Stevens bolt action rifles, Delton ARs, Taurus revolvers and pistols, Ruger rifles, Ruger pistols, Ford cars, all kinds of shit, every week. They all think their toy is the greatest thing since bottled beer. Why spoil their fun?
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-18-12, 19:57
I would wait till it breaks down and he wants to know why, or until he asks what your opinion is and offer him factual info and not just "Bushmaster's are crap". No reason to crap in his cornflakes just cause you can.
We can beat people in the face with the TDP, but until they see a cheap AR fail, most will continue to believe that a $700 hobby grade off the rack AR is just as good as the Colt's, BCM's, Daniel Defense etc. Some people are best left to wallow in the sweet bliss of their ignorance.
Just shoot with him and trade off now and then, he will learn and I'm willing to bet he will outgrow his AR( or it will piss out on him) and then he look onto a BCM Colt or DD..
Send him to this forum to read up... He will get an education realllll quick :)
I usually just say "Yeah, that oughta work..." If I end up at the range with 'em (unlikely), I just try to keep from getting muzzled.
I don't really care to 'enlighten' anyone, I like what I like, they can buy whatever...
I bought a PSA carbine to see how well it'd run. My buddy has a Colt 6920 that he doesn't baby and we run our rifles side by side. Another buddy has one of those folding Keltech carbines in 5.56. Being polymer, I had my doubts about the rifle but no practical experience with them. All three of us ran our carbines like kids with 10/22s and a case of daddy's ammo. Both ARs ran fine but the the poor Keltech broke in half right at the grip and Keltech had to replace it. My buddy with the Keltech carbine is a smart man. He'll make up his own mind what to do about this situation without me saying a word. I value his friendship too much to pull any kind of "I told you so" on him (and I know how I'd feel if my pride & joy fell apart).
Bottom line is, we make our decisions. We go shoot and our rifles either work, or they don't, and when they don't, it's up to us to take the right course of action. Just go shoot and see what happens. That's the best way to handle it
OK, I'll take a stab at this. If he's a know-it-all who gets defensive when you contradict him, say nothing. If he's a good guy who just doesn't know, I'd recommend this approach.
Ask him if he'd like a cleaning/informational session with you. Have him bring his rifle over and teach him how to properly disassemble it. Show him what things to look for. If his carrier key isn't staked properly, help him do it. Show him the areas that tend to fail and what to look for. Explain the signs that a carbine is overgassed and what he can do. Recommend spare parts and who to get them from. Most of all, show him lubrication points and how much to use. I recently did this with my cousin to great effect. He subsequently ditched the RRA and built a PSA lower with a BCM LW middy upper.
In the end, you'll be helping him learn the ins and outs of the platform and what to look for in the future if he gets another one, without directly attacking his purchase. Finally, if he wants to learn more, email him a link to this forum.
I say enlighten them and give them guidence before he buys, but after the deed is done, support their training and sport even if you do not support their firearms choice. I myself own a DPMS and I'm happy with it. I understand their are some flaws with it but I only put about 500 rounds a year through it and at that rate I think it will last me a long time before I see major issues.
I understand the trigger pins are weak. No problem, I'll get better pins. I also understand the bolts have issues. I'll replace the bolt with a better quality bolt. The next time I will choose a better product.
If you were talking to him before he bought and he bought something you advised him against buying, let him learn the hard way. You did your part. Let it go at that. kwg
My experience is it is not worth the effort and most will not shoot it enough to see the difference and even if they do shoot it they still think they know what is better, I have just given up and been happy with my BCM build and save up for more BCM and quality accessories. What I try to do any more is if someone is looking at ARs is drag them to the range and let them light off my old Bushmaster, my BCM build, a friend of mines RRA and what ever other ARs we can find and show them the difference since my BCM middy even though it is new is notably smoother then the Bushmaster or RRA, and then proceed to blow their little minds when I pull the numbers out and show how the BCM build, even with all the bells and whistles cost only $50-150 more then most name brand ARs.
Also, I should ad, remember a lot of people have little patience and want instant gratification. While it took me several months to put my BCM build together I am generally patient and will wait for the things that I want, though I did end up with a BFH upper instead of a standard because I wanted the damn thing NOW!!, but that was the exception. Most will buy what is on the shelf and would rather have a lesser in hand then a better on order.
Dustin Cantrell
11-18-12, 22:14
Also, I should ad, remember a lot of people have little patience and want instant gratification. While it took me several months to put my BCM build together I am generally patient and will wait for the things that I want, though I did end up with a BFH upper instead of a standard because I wanted the damn thing NOW!!, but that was the exception. Most will buy what is on the shelf and would rather have a lesser in hand then a better on order.
I'm glad I found a BCM on the shelf at my LGS when I was ready to buy my first AR. :D
There was no intent to be a condescending prick. That is why it said is there a polite way. If there is none than nothing would be said. Who sounds like a condescending prick here?
That was the plan, to show him to shoot, how to run drills and teach him more about the platform. If something breaks show him how to fix it.
And there you have it. This thread now contains the full answer to your question.
I didn't say anything different then anybody else said, only difference is that I said it in such a manner that made you focus on the delivery rather then the message because of your ego.
Look at your friend, then re-read what you wrote....look at your friend again, and then re-read what you wrote again. Delivery choice will either help him, or get the same kind of response that you gave me.
Lightbulb going off yet?
Right way to do it:
Support your friend! Help him keep his gun running. It is important not to let Internet logic influence your decision making, don't rub his face in his mistake. Teach, assist, and be a blessing to him! Rude people make poor friends and drive away new shooters. Don't be an obstacle to him staying in the shooting community. :nono:
Wrong way to do it:
How about you just mind your own ****ing business, and as your "friend" shoots his gun and it eventually fails for (insert typical reason here), and he comes to you asking why and what he should do to repair it, HELP HIM LEARN. Some people need to DO to learn.
No need to be a condescending prick because you think you bought a better tool then someone else.
Same message, different delivery, hence different outcome.
And that is all you need to know.
Consider this a Yoda moment.....;)
Thankfully the old man listened to his son in law and not all the retarded douchbag LGS salesman who tried selling him bushies and dpms's and explaining to us that there is no difference between those brands and colts. All the stores we went to had several of TOR's (those other rifles) and maybe a 6920 or an m&p and it was obvious they were trying to just make a sale. So after listening to a bunch of bullshit all morning from these guys the old man decided on a 6940 only after I showed him, the LGS, and several other patrons the difference between TOR's and the colt. It's kind of hard for guys to make their argument when you are physically showing them the difference. Jeez people are ****ing gullible and stupid.
So Anyway the old man gets to bring home to Texas his first ar15 and thank god it's not a bushmaster.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/senecanation1/6c6e2ee065ddf7c3a23afad7d8086fca.jpg
Nightvisionary
11-18-12, 23:50
Apparently there is not a polite way to accomplish this. I have been surfing predator masters forum for a couple months very politely explaining the difference. From the response I have received I believe I would have gotten off lighter if I would have just personally insulted every ones mother. The guys over there are very protective of their DMPS Sporticals, RRA Tactical Operators, and New Frontier/Plum Crazy lowers.
I have received a couple warnings for discussing purely technical aspects even though my posts have not come anywhere close to violating forum rules.
You can be polite and provide the technical information to support your statements. They will provide absolutely nothing in return but you will still be the jack ass that doesn't know what you are talking about in their minds. You will know how Copernicus felt.
Apparently there is not a polite way to accomplish this. I have been surfing predator masters forum for a couple months very politely explaining the difference. From the response I have received I believe I would have gotten off lighter if I would have just personally insulted every ones mother. The guys over there are very protective of their DMPS Sporticals, RRA Tactical Operators, and New Frontier/Plum Crazy lowers.
I have received a couple warnings for discussing purely technical aspects even though my posts have not come anywhere close to violating forum rules.
You can be polite and provide the technical information to support your statements. They will provide absolutely nothing in return but you will still be the jack ass that doesn't know what you are talking about in their minds. You will know how Copernicus felt.
That's exactly how many new members feel they are treated here...lol
Grumpy M4 is totally correct IMHO. It's not your mission to berate his purchase, or save anyone from buying shit ARs. Help him out if he asks and guide him then.
On the other hand, if you are friggin OCD and cant keep from saying something just e-mail him this pic.
http://i2.minus.com/ibV6xy.JPG
Tell him not to drop/fall with/fall on his weapon too hard. :rolleyes:
And I think we can now end this thread.
Ok I had been talking with a friend about purchasing an AR. Today he came and told me he bought an AR. My first thought is sweet, but then he told me what he bought, a Bushmaster C15 556/.22 combo with two uppers from Dick's. I tried to be nice and tell him I would give him some classes on shooting and talked a little about mil spec AR features, but didn't tell him he screwed up getting the setup. So how do I break it to him? Just be straight up and tell him, or go shooting with him, let him shoot my BCM and let him come to the conclusion on his own? Just curious if others have had this same thing happen to them and how they handled it.
"That's not the AR I would have chosen had you asked my advice on purchasing an AR" is all I'd say and leave him to learn on his own regarding why (unless her asks...)
That's exactly how many new members feel they are treated here...lol
When I showed pics of my clunky BM with goofy stuff hanging from it (and in my defense said goofy stuff was all given to me but never mind that...) and asked for advice, the members here were nothing but helpful in directing me to better choices for the $$$.
It's all in how you ask. As others have stated: most come already to defend their choice vs truly get informed and make smart choices based on that.
If you are looking for polite, you have come to the wrong place. Only tough love here.
...which is why I like this place....no pulling punches, if someone doesn't like your decisions they will tell you....with no frosting, or sugar coating.
It's also why so many noobs that come here get turned-off by....what they call: 'the 'fanboy' attitudes projected here. Can't tell you how many people on a survivalist forum have so little good to say about this forum.....or how much I enjoy seeing their posting about how they were skewered here.
WickedWillis
11-19-12, 11:12
Is he happy with it? he got 2 uppers and probably didnt pay that much. If he is not going to be putting 1000's of round through it each year I really do not know what the big deal is. Maybe it will be like me, I bought my 1st AR on the cheap, learned a bit about them and now my new one will be either a Colt or a BCM because of the things I have learned from owning my 1st AR.
Take your friend shooting and help him to learn to run the carbine. Keep it lubed and educated him on why. Make sure the gas key is staked and once again educate him. Any other little tidbits of advice, pass them on.
I went shooting with a guy who had a DPMS rifle that he had fired over 1500 rounds in it over the course of a couple of months. When I shot it, I saw right away that the BCG was bone dry. I told him to keep it well lubed and it would run better. Later he thanked me for the advice because it was simple to do and he didn't know better.
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