View Full Version : Glock 21: How bad is it?
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=5327&view=previous&sid=7f87330c77bea8faec08c5f44b5aedd2
While doing some research I came across the above (rather dated) thread. It details a test that Larry Vickers did on some handguns.
The G21 is referred to as a "dog" and the worst gun that Glock makes.
Never having owned or even fired a G21, how accurate is this assessment? I was actually thinking about looking at getting a G21 sometime in the future (if it turns out to fit me), but if an expert such as Vickers thinks its a POS then that's enough to make me reconsider.
Well, unless you routinely pour buckets of sand over your sidearm, I wouldn't sweat it.
I look at Glock .45's as coming in three varieties:
Regular 21: great if you have hands like Shaq
21SF: better. I wouldn't be surprsied if this replaces the regular 21 in time.
GAP: Best (for me). Ballistics equal to regular .45ACP, but +P ACP trumps the GAP, so if that's important to you, stick with the ACP. Ammo more difficult to find locally but readily available through mailorder houses. Any decent SD ACP load is replicated within the GAP line (HST, GDHP, etc.)
I have owned a Glock 21C for a little over a year now and carried it daily on duty since August when our policy was altered to allow the carry of personally owned pistols. During that time I have fired between 1500 and 2000 rounds and if I recall correctly, have experienced one, maybe two malfunctions. Each of which I am not convinced were not shooter error. Have used quality ammunition since I purchased the pistol and am comfortable staking my life on its' durability.
Don Robison
02-16-08, 19:10
I can't speak to every G21 out there, but my experience has been positive. Since July I've been carrying a 21SF I've got just over 3K of Wolf and Blazer through it and carry it everyday.
I'm not a fan Glock 21... If you want a 45 take a look at a nice 1911 or a 4506...
Just my .02
Buck
Go S&W M&P. It's alot nicer gun and they are accurate. I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for all the Glocks there are. My b-i-l had two 40s let go on him. One with a reload and one with factory ammo.
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=5327&view=previous&sid=7f87330c77bea8faec08c5f44b5aedd2
While doing some research I came across the above (rather dated) thread. It details a test that Larry Vickers did on some handguns.
The G21 is referred to as a "dog" and the worst gun that Glock makes.
Never having owned or even fired a G21, how accurate is this assessment? I was actually thinking about looking at getting a G21 sometime in the future (if it turns out to fit me), but if an expert such as Vickers thinks its a POS then that's enough to make me reconsider.
These types of tests get a lot of attention, but are generally meaningless for 99.99% of the folks contemplating getting one. I live on a farm, maybe I should run one through a combine and report back if it still works, or more likely, if I ever find all the pieces. Would that mean anything?
I suggest you go to a gun shop (or friend), and try one for yourself. I was old school and did not think much of the plastic gun back in the 80s, but when I tried one I loved it and continue to use on to this day.
It is not about what works for others, but what works for you.
Plastic Fantastic
02-16-08, 21:07
I've had my Glock 21 since 1991. I've put thousands of rounds through it without a problem. I carried it everyday while on duty and off duty. It never failed me. The only time it stovepiped, was when I let a friend of mine shoot it, but that was due to a limp wrist. I'm no longer on the job, but I still carry it a lot during winter months. Everyone I know that has a G-21 hasn't had a problem either. Like Jmart says, unless you plan to dump buckets of sand in it, you shouldn't have a problem. If you have small hands, the G-21 wouldn't be the gun for you. The G-21SF has a slimmer profile for smaller hands. The G-37 which fires the 45 GAP would be another alternative, but ammo is harder to find. If you are interested in the G-21 because it's a Glock, take the time to look at other 45's. You may find something else that fits you better. Comfort and how it points naturally in your hands is important. I love the Glock, but I have other 45's that I carry.:cool:
John_Wayne777
02-16-08, 21:08
Anchorage PD issues the G21 and the officers I've trained with from that department seem to be fine with the weapons. At least one had his grip worked on by Robar. Their main concern was having a weapon that can run without any lube. (It gets kind of chilly in Alaska....)
If LAV wrote an article saying something, it's the truth. I'd listen very carefully to anything the man has to say.
FWIW, Mr. Vickers (If he did indeed write that article) isn't the only person I've heard talk about the G21 as not being up to the standard set by the 9mm Glocks.
If you do decide on a G21, I'd suggest getting the SF model. It feels better in the hand in my opinion.
I have had tons of Glocks in all calibers and the 21 is my favorite. I have a duty model with over 25K through it and not one problem unless it was ammo related. My personal Glock I used for competitions in swat had over 12K without any problems other than ammo related issues.
I teach handgun and rifle courses for the PD. I also teach and adjunct under other instructors here in Texas. Out of all of the classes I have taugh or assisted 1911's have had the most problems I have ever seen of any handgun. We usually take bets to see if it will last through the 3 day advanced ammo count of 1500-2000 rounds.
Most of the failures are the high end custom 1911's they are paying 1500-2500+. The only 1911 I saw make it through a 3 day course we taught without a hitch was an out of the box SA Operator an Austin Swat operator was using. Most of them can't run extremely dirty and have to be cleaned in the middle of the day and their $25+ dollar magazines keep failing to feed. I am not banging on the 1911. I love the feel and workmanship of a 1911. They are in my opinion one of the most ergonomic and well thought out designs in a handgun. But I have seen and experienced so many problems that I will not carry one with me on duty. That is my $.02.
I have never seen a Glock of any caliber fail on any of the high count courses I have fired or instructed on. I run mine through 3-5 day courses without ever cleaning them and just putting a little lube here and there and they always run. Most problems with any manufacturer comes from 1- their magazines, 2- ammo or 3- failure to PM and constantly check your weapons parts that need to be replaced regularly with heavy firing.
In my opinion you should believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Try one out yourself and make your own decision. Even the pros are jaded and brand loyal.
I bag on no manufacturer. I have shot and used almost all of the current popular military/LE weapons that they carry for duty use and all are relatively good guns. It really centers on which is best for you not what is best for Larry Vickers.
I have used the 21SF and it is not that much smaller but might be better for a smaller set of hands. I have a buddy on NM State Police that has hands like a pack of bananas and he thinks the G21 is too big. I have small - medium sized hands and I can wail with that G21 left or right handed but I play with it at the range and snap in as much as I can trhough out the day. I am of the mind that if you were to shoot a large weapon and thats all you had you would become proficient with it regardless of the size.
Try one out for a few weeks and really see if you like it.
Please do not post links to Glock talk.
Steelshooter
02-17-08, 13:08
I call B.S especially on "as a "dog" and the worst gun that Glock makes". There is not a thing in the world wrong with the Glock 21. It is very reliable and accurate, and one of the best .45's you can buy especially for the price. Those 'torture' test are silly because they are not repeatedly consistent and so not good for much more than entertainment. I don't care who does the "test". Btw I carried a 1911 most of my life while in the Marine Corps (20+ years=30+ years of 1911's.) and own plenty of them now. But I also own two Glock 21SF's and will buy at least on Glock 30Sf when they become available.
Steelshooter
02-17-08, 13:12
Please do not post links to Glock talk or that moronic thread.
]
The only 1911 I saw make it through a 3 day course we taught without a hitch was an out of the box SA Operator an Austin Swat operator was using.
You've only seen ONE 1911 complete one of your 3-day classes without malfunctioning?
Unless you haven't taught very many classes, that's unusual to say the least. I've only been participating in such classes since 2002, but I've seen many 1911s go the distance of a 3-day class without issues.
John_Wayne777
02-17-08, 13:37
The folks at Glocktalk are getting a lil excited about that article :) ....... http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=826883
Glock-Talk has a higher moron per-capita rate than any other web board on the internet. I assume there will be a bunch of accusations flung at Mr. Vickers by a bunch of internet fanboys whose experience base is playing counter-strike and reading Glock brochures.
Glocks are a tool. They are a tool that works well for some people, not so well for others. Like any company, some of Glock's products are better than others.
...and yet for some reason there is a certain percentage of Glock owners who react to the idea that there could potentially be ANYTHING undesirable about one of Gaston's Tupperware blasters like you told them that their mother sells it on the street for a buck fifty.
None of the Glock guys here on M4C (and there are a LOT of them) are like that, and I've got Glocks too and I'm not afflicted with that syndrome, so the explanation can't be some sort of toxin that contaminates the brains of individuals who hold a Glock....
I think so poorly of my G21 that I wouldn't let anyone else have it because I wouldn't want them to know how much it sucks.;)
I have a 21SF, that I carry in the truck. It's a decent weapon. In my chosen environment, it will mostly likely never fail me. It fits we well, and is plenty accurate to 25yds.
Sometimes, I have to look at these tests and qualify them as applicable to me, or not.
This one probably never evens stands a chance of being reality for me, but could for some. I plan accordingly. :p
My Glock 21 has been completely reliable except for the brief period where I thought it would be interesting to see what a recoil reducing spring might do to the pistol. What it did was make it unreliable. ;) I returned the pistol to stock and its been completely reliable again.
I'm a pretty good shot with a variety of pistols, and I get excellent results from my Glock 21. It compares favorably to most of my other .45s, most of which cost a fair bit more than my G21.
I have a glock 20 and I like the size of the grip. My hands are not large by any stretch. I have one friend who doesn't like the grip though. He has short fat fingers and he cant reach the trigger very well. Try the 21 out before you buy one though, you may need the 21SF if you have short fingers like my buddy. Also try out the S&W MP, it has a different feel altogether than the glock. Some like it and some dont.
One of my best friends and shooting partners (who also just wrote the best .22 rimfire book out there Steve Boelter ) recently broke a frame rail on his Glock 21. Of course he has just passed the 53,000 round mark. He called Glock and they replaced the whole gun, not just the frame, no questions asked. 53,000 rounds of .45 ACP is more than most of us will ever shoot (Steve is a freak, took him 2 years). For what it is worth, he also has a Glock 20 that he just passed the 47,000 round mark and it is holding up fine.
John_Wayne777
02-17-08, 15:42
What I've heard from a number of people who are in a position to see LOTS of G21s is that they tend to be more problematic than the 9mm incarnations of the Glock. In fact, just recently there was a thread about the G21 and M4C's own USMC03 and DocGKR essentially said that the G21 tends to exhibit more issues in issue numbers than the 9mm Glocks. Both of these individuals are in positions which brings them into contact with large-scale users of various weapons platforms.
Here again the results one gets from a platform would have to be considered with how they use the platform. If you are an average joe you're probably a lot more likely to have a positive experience with your G21 than those who have dealt with the weapons in issue numbers in the past.
Part of the reason the G21 has gotten the ick face from some folks in the industry might be a result of how Glock inc. handled issues with their weapon when they came up.
Yep, my 21SF will probably NEVER see 3,000rds - in it's whole life. It will do what I need it to do in the meantime though.
Part of the reason the G21 has gotten the ick face from some folks in the industry might be a result of how Glock inc. handled issues with their weapon when they came up.
So, after Glock made their mods (new trigger bar and updated striker and/or striker spring IIRC), is the Model 21 considered as reliable as the 9mm patterned guns?
Jeff, if you are tracking this thread, does your dept issue the Model 21 for any officers? Do you have first hand experience with this pattern (both pre- and post-fixes) or is your understanding based on other depts' and/or instructors' experiences?
Given Glock's overall reputation and the number of rounds that I would probably put through it, I'm sure that it would be fine. It's just when you hear someone of Larry Vickers reputation having a less than stellar opinion of any gun, one tends to take notice.
I'm not a Glock expert by any means, so I'm an adherent of the philosophy "Shut the Hell up and listen to those who know"., which includes listening to the many informed opinions on this board.
I'm certainly not about to speak for Larry. The testing he did is far more valuable than my own anecdotal experience.
I would say the G23 is the most problematic model I've seen, both in my personal experience and the experience of various individuals and agencies I've dealt with. The .45 GAP guns could probably beat it in the "don't touch" department but they're so rare it's hard to get a serious read on them. The one unit I know that tested the .45 GAP Glock rejected it, and I know Pennsylvania State Police had a stoppage the first time one of their G37's was used in a fight.
The major issue with the G21 has been magazines, from what I've seen. Glock has been through multiple iterations of the mag.
I'm amazed that anyone who is involved in serious regular training (as a student, instructor, or both) can say he's never seen a Glock fail in a class. I've experienced it personally with both a G23 and a G19, and I've seen it countless times among students. Of course, Glocks also frequently make up half or more of a class's population so it's only fair to factor that into the equation.
I have nothing against the Glock 9mm pistols (though I don't think they're any better than the competition, either). In other calibers, they are much more hit and miss.
One final thought about the G21: it doesn't surprise me at all that people have put thousands of rounds through their own G21's. The difference between a car considered extremely reliable and one considered extremely unreliable is usually just a few percentage points in returns/complaints. I've spoken to people who have flawless Jennings, too, and certainly that doesn't prove the brand or model is great. Are G21's all going to have problems? No ... especially under the common conditions most users will face at the round counts they're likely to see. But is it more likely to have problems than some of the competition? Probably.
People get far too emotionally attached to their handguns and defensive when anyone suggests that they're anything but perfect.
edited to add: Without question, the 1911 is by far the most stoppage- and malfunction-prone gun I've seen in classes. Stock guns, custom guns, and everything in between.
I think too many people have an almost emotional or religious attachment to their weapons. Not to sound cheesy, but you are the weapon. The pistol is just the implement of your will. We all have many factors that need to be considered in choosing a weapon. Just like in most everything else our choice is based on a series of tradeoffs. We consciously decide to give-up certain things in order to gain others. The important thing is so consider the tradeoffs carefully.
There are so many great options available to us in today’s market. There is a gun for almost everyone out there. However it is up to you to decide what works best for you and for your set of circumstances and situation. My needs are simple. I want a high capacity pistol in .45 ACP. It need to be reliable in a variety of conditions and It has to operate in a wet climate. So for me with XXL sized hands the Glock 21 has been my go to pistol for over 10 years.
Still others have different requirements. I am not sure if passing the bag of sand test is as high on my list of things a gun needs to do as it may be for others. I think Larry’s student are probably more likely to carry a pistol in a drop leg holsters with the weapon more exposed to sand and grit. Imagine rolling around on the ground in Iraq during a struggle, then needing your gun to function… I always carry concealed. So if I am fighting in a sand pit in eastern Washington, then my pistol will not be as likely to come in contact with as much sand as say a soldier in Iraq.
Personally I am taking this test as it is and at face value. I appreciate Larry’s comments because he is Larry Vickers. I am not willing or able to pass judgment on the basic service level agreement of any pistol design or in its ability to handle a bag of sand. At the end of the day this test has had no bearing on my decision to carry a Glock 21 and Glock 30 respectively. It did make me think about it for a while. But for now I am sticking with the Glock 21/Glock 30.
I have one of the newer G21's I purchased 08/06.
So far it's been 100% reliable, even with a Surefire X200 attached. It's my duty gun and so far has had about 2,500 rounds put through it. I intend to use it in Viking Tactic's pistol class in a couple weeks and I'm sure it will continue to be 100% reliable.
I had a G22 before that was consistantly problematic that I eventually traded away. What I've learned with most handguns is that if you keep them clean and lubed and change out the springs occasionally they will serve you well. I'm sorry to hear that the G21 in Mr. Vickers' test did not do well, but that won't make me take mine out of my duty holster.
John_Wayne777
02-17-08, 22:14
I'm amazed that anyone who is involved in serious regular training (as a student, instructor, or both) can say he's never seen a Glock fail in a class.
I would guess that's because generally people who spend time actually training with weapons figure out that sooner or later everything breaks.....
Even stuff with Gaston's name on it.
Damn.....I gotta watch saying stuff like that or the tupperware jedi's will sense a disturbance in the force and then threaten to come show me how well their Glocks work with me on the business end of it again.....:rolleyes:
NCPatrolAR
02-18-08, 00:03
Think my IQ dropped reading that GT thread
There are many G21's that function well. The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.
Mr. Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to concurrently serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments, including Combat Development, as well as having worked as a consultant in the firearms industry. Mr. Vickers has had a hand in the genesis of several SOF combat systems. He may have more experience with the technical aspects of pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth, as the organization he served with shot in excess of one million rounds of .45 ACP per year, as well as significant amounts of 9 mm ammunition. Some individuals may be unaware that Mr. Vickers was a key person responsible for getting Glocks accepted into use by U.S. SOF personnel. Mr. Vickers clearly understands and acknowledges the benefits and limitations of each small arm, including M1911’s, Glocks, HK’s, M9’s, P226’s, etc… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 would be my first out of the box choice for a rugged hard use pistol. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220.
The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm…
If Glock had quit making different models after, oh, say, the Glock 17, then they term "Glock Perfection" would be significantly more meaningful.
The Glock 17 is a great gun. I don't like them (my fingers are too short and chubby to reach the trigger properly), but I can't deny they are great guns. Adapting its basic design to other calibers has been less spectacular (as DocKGR notes above).
I still think most of the police departments that orginally had the G17, but switched to the caliber du jour made a big mistake. Regardless of how well individual specimens perform (and yes, I mean YOU if you're thinking right now, "Well, MY Glock XX has functioned 100% for 50 bajillion rounds!"), none of the other models will ever be as reliable in total as the G17. The G19 might come close, but probably not.
The allure of bigger bullets seems nigh unto irresistable for some. I don't think there is a significant difference in terminal ballistics between a .40S&W and a modern 9mm JHP, yet some simply must have a gun that is less reliable and significantly more difficult to shoot well. I see this as an even bigger problem for organizations (as opposed to individuals) that will inevitably have members who can't shoot well at all, so it's a bad idea to give them a weapon that recoils more and is demonstratably less reliable.
It hasn't been too long since the Indiana State Police had problems with a significant number of Glock 22 pistols, which Glock could neither explain away nor remedy. The solution was to trade for Glock 17s for everyone. Some saw that as a downgrade because of the caliber, but I think they're in much better shape now.
If I were forced to carry a Glock, it would be a G17.
To quote from the test:
"6)The shocker of the day - the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well."
Keeping this within the context of the original post, this same test applied to any Glock would likely have the same result.
edited to add: Without question, the 1911 is by far the most stoppage- and malfunction-prone gun I've seen in classes. Stock guns, custom guns, and everything in between.
This has been my experience too. The guns dragging a class down in my experience are 1911s.... Generally Kimbers since they're most commonly found in classmate's hands.
As I always say... Don't get me wrong. I love the 1911. I'll be shooting one today for recreational purposes... but...
We have to get over the romance of carrying the legacy 1911 pistol and get down to the business of shooting bad guys more efficiently. :D
The major issue with the G21 has been magazines, from what I've seen. Glock has been through multiple iterations of the mag.
I would agree with that statement. I've had a G21 (2nd gen) since 1992. One failure to eject on an original (gen 1 - non-dropfree) mag that was over 10 years old at the time.
My experience with the G21 has not been very positive. I started out carrying it on duty, but when my round count got to around 5k on the pistol I began to have light primer strikes.
I contacted Glock and they shipped me a new trigger bar. The new trigger bar was installed, and the gun ran fine for the first couple hundred rounds, but then the light primer strikes started occurring again. It got to the point I was having a light primer strike every 50-60 rounds. At that point I had no confidence with in the gun, so I got rid of it.
With this being said if you have a G21, and haven't had any problems good for you. There are lots of guys at my department who carry them and have not had any problems at all.
Justin
The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.
All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm…
Larry conducted his test in 2001.
LAPD had their issues much later.
Glock has incorporated design changes in current production since these two events.
Does your (and do you know if Larry's) opinion on current production Model 21's remain the same? If so, is it based on the observation that you're still
seeing the same problems (i.e., the redesign didn't fix the original problem) or do observations from the past still formulate the basis of your opinion on them?
CarlosDJackal
02-18-08, 10:08
My first Glock was a 21 and I still own this pistol. I can't really think of any issues I've had with this pistol and in fact, it is still my nightstand pistol (with Nitrolon light attached).
As far as grip size, this is entirely personal preference. I don't have big hands but I actually had to put on one of those Hogue handgun condoms on my Glock 21 to make it more comfortable. YMMV.
What design changes are incorporated in current G21's?
From my recollection, they modified the trigger bar, and they may ship with either a HD striker spring or a lightened striker, not sure on that.
The large frame strikers are/were heavier than the strikers used in the 9mm/Sig/S&W frames. My memories fuzzy on this but I'm pretty sure I picked up somewhere along the way that Glock either decreased the weight of the striker or increased the weight of the striker spring to get better striker velocity. They also may recommend replacement of selected springs at more frequent intervals than previously, anyone been to an armorer's class lately?
I'm not sure what was modded on the trigger bar.
I know with .40's they changed out the mag springs to a heavier duty model, I understand that was precipitated by feed failures with lights attached.
Not sure if there have been mag changes to the Model 21's, but the LAPD issue was a light strike issue. Feeding was fine, it was just that the gun wouldn't go bang. Not good.
From what I gather it took a long tome for Glock to diagnose and address the issue, but Glock now claims it's addressed. I'm just looking for empirical data which would corroborate or refute Glock's assertion. But I'd like an informed opinion that's based on newer, "corrected" samples because I think it's pretty much accepted that older models had issues.
Lastly, someone chime in, but as I understand it, LAPD/SWAT/whoever stopped using their Model 21's until Glock addressed the issue. Does anyone know if they are now back in service? The LEO organization who brought this to light, are they now satisfied that the platform is GTG?
G21 = 100% reliable
almost 2000 rounds through it never had a Problem
Now 1911,s that a different story
+1, although my G30 does group tighter, go figure.
What is up with the 1911 discontent?!?!?
I am sorry that some of you had poor experiences with 1911's. A properly set-up 1911 or a G17 both work equally well for me. If a pistol can't run at least a 1000 continuous rounds without problems, I immediately get rid of it, be it a 1911, Glock, or anything else.
The first time I used a 1911 at our local SWAT pistol training certification, I fired 1200 witnessed and documented rounds with ZERO failures to feed or function, all without cleaning the pistol during the course. The other guys with properly set-up 1911's also had no problems. Officers with Para's, seized “Franken parts” pistols, and those with poorly executed 1911's did not fare so well. Since then, I’ve put thousands of rounds through various customized Colt and SA 1911’s at numerous training evolutions with no significant problems—most recently at a LMS sponsored Larry Vickers course in San Jose.
My 1911's are as equally reliable as my G17’s.
Too many manufacturers these days try to take short cuts on parts quality to reach a specific price point; likewise many vendors fit 1911's too tight in a quest for match accuracy, rather than striving for combat reliability. Were any of the poor performing 1911's mentioned in this thread properly modified as a combat pistol by a competent pistolsmith who is experienced with DUTY pistols as opposed to game guns? Likewise, were the pistols properly maintained? These two factors are critical for success with the 1911. Duty 1911's set-up by Larry Vickers, C&S, Chuck Rogers, Hilton Yam, Don Lazzarini, and others of that ilk are all very reliable and remain that way, as long as they are properly maintained.
As Pat Rogers has discussed, the M1911 MEU-SOC pistols issued to Force Recon, see very hard use, shooting up to 25,000 rounds per year--yet these pistols routinely prove to be reliable and durable. Travel to Range 130 at Camp Pendleton during any training cycle and you will see many Marines shooting their MEU-SOC M1911's without significant problems--they all seem to make it through the package without failures, something M9's don't seem to be able to accomplish; again, witnessed and documented fact. FBI SWAT, LAPD Metro SWAT D-platoon, USMC Force Recon, as well as various USSOC personnel all seem to have no problems running 1911’s. In fact, many of these folks are using their very reliable 1911's on duty and in combat as I write this. Our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers didn't seem to complain about their 1911's failing to make the grade at Belleau Wood, Guadalcanal, Monte Cassino, Normandy, Bastogne, or Chosin. Perhaps Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are right when they comment on how much more care and concern went into the building of those wartime 1911's...Although it rattled and was heavily worn, the tired old 1944 manufactured M1911A1 issued to me in 1989-1990 went bang every time I pulled the trigger...
In this day and age, if someone is not willing to spend the time and money to allow one of the rare pistolsmiths who actually knows how to set-up a combat 1911 and ensures it gets done right, then a 1911 is probably not the way to go. Likewise, 1911 users need to be a bit more diligent in performing periodic maintenance—if that doesn’t happen, then the 1911 is likely not a good choice. As I’ve mentioned before, if someone desires a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol, the S&W M&P or the HK45 are probably the best current choices.
Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a properly set-up 1911, a stock Glock 17, or a slightly modified .40 M&P are my top choices for rugged pistols that I would want to rely on in chaotic, stressful combat/duty situations.
A SEAL friend wrote the following while in combat OCONUS a bit ago:
”I've been re-reading some of the archived Jeff Cooper Columns in my down time. He has commented that there are two types of American soldiers/Marines over here in Southwest Asia- "those that have 1911's and those that wish they did." That is nearly a true statement…Folks, it's just this simple, for me. Out here, sometimes you can see more clearly and for me one of those things is this: I want a good reliable thugging pistol. I have a comprehensive collection of the major martial handguns in service today, and access to all the rest. I'm not going to clutter up my one "go to war bag" with fluff gear anymore. Unless I'm burrowed into a hide (where a suppressed Mk 23 is an excellent hide defense weapon) I think I'd rather have a good M1911 than any other handgun. I've always liked them, but I have a renewed appreciation for the shear functionality and utility of the design. I'd rather choose M1911's to outfit my Team than SIGs. We have an abundance of SIGs at this time, so that's what we're using for most things…Now that my neck is on the line a little more, I would prefer to upgrade to a M1911 if I had the chance. There isn't as much to the lockwork on a M1911 and there's a much bigger hole in the barrel. It's small enough to conceal, but large enough to serve as an adequate secondary…I have A LOT of experience with SIG P226's. They are outstanding 9mm pistols. But when push comes to shove and shove comes to breaking heads the M1911 is a better tool, in my opinion, than any other handgun.”
John_Wayne777
02-19-08, 10:58
And all God's children said "Amen!".....;)
A properly set-up 1911 or a G17 both work equally well for me.
The distinction is that the 1911 needs to be properly set-up and then maintained. As you pointed out yourself with these questions:
Were any of the poor performing 1911's mentioned in this thread properly modified as a combat pistol by a competent pistolsmith who is experienced with DUTY pistols as opposed to game guns? Likewise, were the pistols properly maintained?
Far, far too many of the 1911's I see in classes, in matches, or at the range during practice will not meet either of these requirements. Both require a level of technical proficiency which is beyond the skill or attention of the typical gun-toter.
As Pat Rogers has discussed, the M1911 MEU-SOC pistols issued to Force Recon, see very hard use, shooting up to 25,000 rounds per year--yet these pistols routinely prove to be reliable and durable.
They're also hand-built by people with experience making combat pistols, and they receive routine professional maintenance and inspections.
At the initial industry meeting for what would become the JCP program, one of the few people in the room with extensive experience running 1911's for a whole unit stood up and implored his fellow servicemen not to choose a 1911-pattern pistol specifically because of the time, money, and effort that was required to keep the guns running properly.
I agree completely with your comment here:
In this day and age, if someone is not willing to spend the time and money to allow one of the rare pistolsmiths who actually knows how to set-up a combat 1911 and ensures it gets done right, then a 1911 is probably not the way to go. Likewise, 1911 users need to be a bit more diligent in performing periodic maintenance—if that doesn’t happen, then the 1911 is likely not a good choice. As I’ve mentioned before, if someone desires a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol, the S&W M&P or the HK45 are probably the best current choices.
There are some people who are happy to spend their weekends tuning and tricking out their cars. For the vast, vast majority of us there is a better option simply by choosing a car that works the way we want it to right off the dealer's lot, and requires only the minimum amount of maintenance. And while the tuners could argue they are getting some kind of improvement performance, the reality is that their cars aren't doing anything from a practical standpoint that can't be achieved with a stock car.
The 1911 is fine if you have the skill and resources to get it set up properly and keep it running. Like most things gun related, sadly, 50% of the people think they fall into the top 10% in this regard ... which is why we see 1911's choking at class after class.
If someone's personal preference for the 1911 is so strong that he's willing to spend a substantially greater amount of time, money, and effort to own a well-running 1911 compared to any number of other suitable guns that cost much less, work right out of the box, and require much less babysitting ... that's certainly fine. But it should be an informed decision based on a real understanding of the costs compared to the supposed benefits.
With the new Elite Magazines coming out, the 1911 will now be reliable. :p
I'm sorry. I just find this so comical. I'm not a 1911 hater. I shoot mine almost EVERY range trip. But we're almost a hundred years into the 1911 and we still are coming up with the right mag?
I also love these old farts (no one in this thread or on this site) who will rip you for not using modern Red dot sights, yet they still are hanging onto the romance of the legacy pistol design. I guess part of it is whose pocket book any one "expert" is in.
agreed DocGKR, while my glocks are reliable, i carry,and trust my life to a MK:) IV series 70 Combat Commander. D.............
I think pistolsmith.com is trying to start a sh*t storm so people will go to there sight. I have had my G21 for years never shot factory loads and never a problem.
Steelshooter
02-20-08, 18:49
The 21 FS has had quite a few changes to the internals specifically the locking block. 30+ years of 1911's, most of it in the Marine Corps, and I do not agree at all that the 1911 is as reliable as the Glock 17. For one thing there are many more things that can go wrong. They certainly require more maintenance and frequent parts replacement. Plus I've seen too many high dollar 1911's go belly up under pretty light circumstances from some big name 1911 pistolsmiths such as the ones already mentioned in this thread. These are pistols that were kept very clean and well lubed by people who knew what they were doing.
Larry Vickers
02-20-08, 20:26
Gents
the story behind that sand test from years ago was the sand issues overseas - we tested the 1911 in 2 flavors, the HK USP tactical, and the Glock 21 - the results shocked everyone; up until that time I did not realize the open channel to the trigger mech was such a big issue in extreme environments - now I recommend a buttplug on all Glock's as cheap insurance
I am confident that if we would have installed a buttplug on the G21 and ran the test again the results would have been different with the G21 doing alot better
In addition there had been tests conducted to determine if the USP and G21 would be suitable replacements to the 1911's in use - every single Glock 21 had broken extractors during the testing and at a relatively low round count - this result dovetailed into what I had seen and heard elsewhere in the firearms industry at the time - the G21 had serious fleas and was to be avoided
Perhaps the newer G21's are better guns - time will tell. I will watch and learn as I travel and train more shooters than all but a very select few of professional trainers - if there is a problem with a gun, optic, mount, ammo, etc. we hear about it and see it very early in the game
As of right now I cannot recommend Glock's in calibers other than 9mm - period
If you want to ignore that advice that is an individual choice and more power to you - but anyone who knows me will tell you I don't sugarcoat anything and that I am a straight shooter - as my friend Ken Hackathorn says about me 'if you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question - cause Larry could care less if you like the answer or not'
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Matt Edwards
02-20-08, 22:32
And all God's children said "Amen!".....;)
I thought this would also be an appropriate place for this.;)
Matt
I had an old 1994 G21 -- utter dog - and left me with a bad tatse for Glocks for a long time. The trigger safety would bite me (unlike my G23, G17 or 19's) and it did not like several types of ammo.
My 1911 work gun has (touch wood) been outstanding, and other than FTF's from dead primers on VERY old ammo - nary a hitch -- of course its built off a WWII Ithaca frame - and the parts are all high end. The only major 1911 issues I've had came at the LAV/KH Low Light class -- and I blame Dingers mags ;) - since the day III with the Elites and PowerMags it worked fine.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-24-08, 23:06
Larry,
How did the USP do in the sand tests? My HK45 has been doing well in my "dilettante playing on the range test."
What exactly are the issues with the G21? Is the locking block to weak for the caliber? Are there issues with the springs (firing pin, trigger, trigger bar, mags, etc.)? What exactly makes this pistol so bad? I have read the same about the Sig P220's but no real discussion why these are such bad choices.
If any of the above are issues, does it mean one would have to perform the same type of periodic maintenance on the G21 (or the P220 for that matter) that is required with 1911?
I have a 3rd gen G-21 that has been Super reliable and has only malfunctioned due to trying to see how far I could puchs things before it malf'd. I would trust it with my life but if I had to buy it again I would not have bought it.
DavidFourteen
03-04-08, 22:56
I have had only good experiences with shooting my Glock 21.
Several months back, I acquired a Glock 21 SF for my new duty / off duty gun. The barrel was replaced with a Bar-Sto unit (provided more case support) since mu department uses the Federal HST +P loads. Truglo T.F.O. sights were installed and the the Ny-1 trigger spring was installed. A 20lb recoil spring with a stainless steel guide rod was added. Also, Wolff extra power mag springs were installed.
I have fired 3,800 rounds so far with out any problems (many times in rainy and dusty conditions) . So far, so good. The Bar-Sto barrel did improve the groupings at 25 yards. I'll keep you guys posted on this.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 07:45
I'm in the process of selling a 21SF. Though this has nothing to do with a performance issue. It ran just fine (even with Wolf) but I always found myself having to correct an undergrip.
I like the idea of a double-stack .45 but each one I've tried is just too friggin big for my hands. I tried the 21SF thinking it would be better...and it is...barely.
This is not a complaint about the gun, I love Glocks, but unless you have big honkin mitts, consider staying with the single-stack 1911 if you like .45. Myself I've sworn off double stacks.
Just something to consider when making a choice.
Several months back, I acquired a Glock 21 SF for my new duty / off duty gun. The barrel was replaced with a Bar-Sto unit (provided more case support) since mu department uses the Federal HST +P loads.
Did you experience any case failures with the OEM barrel?
Truglo T.F.O. sights were installed and the the Ny-1 trigger spring was installed. A 20lb recoil spring with a stainless steel guide rod was added. Also, Wolff extra power mag springs were installed.
Why the change to the stainless rod?
I'm in the process of selling a 21SF. Though this has nothing to do with a performance issue. It ran just fine (even with Wolf) but I always found myself having to correct an undergrip.
I like the idea of a double-stack .45 but each one I've tried is just too friggin big for my hands. I tried the 21SF thinking it would be better...and it is...barely.
This is not a complaint about the gun, I love Glocks, but unless you have big honkin mitts, consider staying with the single-stack 1911 if you like .45. Myself I've sworn off double stacks.
Just something to consider when making a choice.
This is exactly why Glock introduced the GAP. Capacity is slightly reduced compared to double stack ACP's, but you get equal ballistics from a smaller, frame that features better ergonomics for many users.
Did you experience any case failures with the OEM barrel?
Why the change to the stainless rod?
The 230 gr +P HST rounds left a slightly bulged portion of the case where it was not supported by the stock OEM barrel. The other Glock 21s that are used by some of my co-workers exhibit the same bulges. I wanted to play it safe, and since my department allows custom 1911s for duty/offduty use, I had a Bar-Sto barrel fitted to enhance accuracy.
I'm running a 20 lb. recoil spring to prevent premature slide unlocking. The stock recoil spring is a bit light for the +P rounds.
Several months back, I acquired a Glock 21 SF for my new duty / off duty gun. The barrel was replaced with a Bar-Sto unit (provided more case support) since mu department uses the Federal HST +P loads. Truglo T.F.O. sights were installed and the the Ny-1 trigger spring was installed. A 20lb recoil spring with a stainless steel guide rod was added. Also, Wolff extra power mag springs were installed.
Are you running the stock FP spring or an extra power spring? No issues with light primer strikes in those 3,800 rounds?
Are you running the stock FP spring or an extra power spring? No issues with light primer strikes in those 3,800 rounds?
Still the stock FP spring. Impacts are still nice and clean. I have extra FP springs, just in case. :)
CarlosDJackal
03-05-08, 12:16
...If you want to ignore that advice that is an individual choice and more power to you - but anyone who knows me will tell you I don't sugarcoat anything and that I am a straight shooter - as my friend Ken Hackathorn says about me 'if you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question - cause Larry could care less if you like the answer or not'
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Larry Vickers, speaking his mind? Say it ain't so!! :eek:
BTW, are you related to the guy they named the IDPA scoring system and the Blue Force sling for? :D
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 12:31
This is exactly why Glock introduced the GAP. Capacity is slightly reduced compared to double stack ACP's, but you get equal ballistics from a smaller, frame that features better ergonomics for many users.
Yeah, but no thanks on the GAP. I only use cartridges that are common/widely available (and use to be) reasonably priced. Given another 30-40 years of proven performance/popularity though and I might give it a whirl.
Like the 10mm/.40/.357SIG IMO it is invariably a compromise that I'm not yet ready to make. We'll see if it lasts before I make any investment.
… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: ... the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up...
Oh no, not another exploding .40 Glock teaser! :rolleyes:
I've run an LE range, fulltime, for the past 8 years, and have an instructor for the past 17 years. I've personally been present for, conservatively, something on the order of 1.25 million+ rounds of .40 go downrange through Glock pistols. All factory ammo - JHP, FMJ and Frangble. Out of all that, maybe a dozen misfires (bad primer or clogged FP channel), and two-three reverse-seated bullets. A handful of instances of weak recoil springs that needed to be replaced, and maybe two dozen minor parts breakages of all types (trigger spring, slide lock spring, slide stop, one trigger bar) that caused a malfunction.
That's it. No extractor/ejector failures. No firing pin breakage. And NO BLOWUPS.
It is the rare Glock .40 that has had any malfunction of any kind that I've seen in that time. Put bad ammunition in any gun and it is a problem.
During the same time, I've seen a few Glock 21s as well under the same circumstances... maybe a couple dozen specimens. Never a single issue with them. I think the weapon is too big and handles poorly, but it runs. Another PD I'm familiar with issues the Glock 21 for the past 15 years, with nary a problem.
I'm not a Glock Kool-Aid drinker. I prefer the 1911 personally, and the M&P in the high-cap format. But the Glock runs when it's in spec. I'm sure some lemons get out the door - bad run of parts, etc. I'm sure some people don't maintain them properly, or at all. But on the whole, you can take them to the bank (no pun intended), if you like what they offer.
Now I don't pour cupfulls of sand into the weapons, although there is plenty of it at my range and the mags fall into it, and we keep shooting. Again, never an issue. I think if that sand test was done again on another day, another set of results might occur.
I only get paid to train fellow LE, and I would not hesitate to recommend any Glock if you like what it offers. Not my personal preference, but it runs, and it's more than accurate enough for combat.
Reliable, unreliable, everyone has their take on it... (here is mine, short and sweet)......a Glock .45 feels like a block of government cheese in your hand. That's as far as I could get with them. The SF....a smaller block 'o cheese. S&W has won my heart for a plastic .45 with the M&P 45. Now, I am not a "hater"....I have carried a G22 and G27 for years with out any issues. They are tools to me. Nothing neat, but they work (yes I have heard the .40 cal Glock horror stories). I am no authority on the issue. I am just a cop who loves guns. My favorite .45 I own is a Colt 1911A1 made in 1942 that shoots like a dream and was carried by heroes generations ago. Handle a M&P 45, then the Block 21 (hell, look at an XD45 too). Go from there......
I have owned 2 G21s and a G21sf. They are all great, but the fitment was not what I was looking for. I went with the G30. Suits me better.
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=76508
The last response from "Viper" on the link submitted above reflects what I've heard, both from LAPD participants on the www.glocktalk.com police sub-forum and from a Glock District Manager who was part of the Glock on-site team that was sent to LAPD to replace the old trigger bars with the new ones.
From what I could gather, the LAPD problems did in fact exist (i.e., light primer strikes, and some firing pin safety peening/misalignment issues), but they were also concurrently exacerbated by LAPD's protocol of oiling the firing pin channel-a protocol inherited from their Beretta 92 and Cougars that were both previous and concurrent issue guns.
Both the Glock owner's manual and the Glock Armorer's Course specifically preclude oiling the firing pin channel-Beretta specifies it as part of their maintenance protocol.
When the Glock team came in, my understanding was that they inspected the officers' G21's, cleaned the firing pin channels as necessary, installed the new trigger bar, the officer then fired 50 rounds of ammunition as a functional check, and was then given a "clearance chit/receipt" and was then (re)allowed to carry their G21 on duty.
It is also my understanding that the extractor issues that Larry cited earlier in the thread were in fact resolved many years ago, with Glock revising the extractor.
There have been several Special Forces deployments, by several elements within at least three SF groups that have had successful deployments to combat areas with G21's subsequent to Larry's initial G21 analysis. If I was confronted with a high liklihood of encountering a situation where the butt cavity could be saturated by sand, fine dirt, etc, I would probably use a butt plug. I understand that a successful field expedient measure is merely to wad up some tape in the cavity, and then tape off the bottom of the cavity. The advantage of the cavity in most environments is to provide somewhat of an exit point for debris, and also to drain out water and snow/ice that potentially could accumulate-the Glock basic platform was, after all, initially designed for and fielded by a country in Europe with mountains and all the climatological variences that could be experienced-and still successfully function.
Best, Jon
As noted, a major problem is that Glock frequently fails to notify other agencies when problems are discovered...
I started shooting Glock (G17) in the mid 1980s and have never had a single functional problem with any of the several models I have owned.
I currently own two G21s, they fit my hand like a custom gun and are my favorite hand gun.
As noted, a major problem is that Glock frequently fails to notify other agencies when problems are discovered...
Sadly, not a problem unique to Glock.
saromans134
03-23-08, 09:58
I carried an early gen Glock 21 on duty and was a firearms instructor with it as well. Admittedly I was also and am also a 1911 advocate, but as others have pointed out you have to be discerning more with these. Mine run like a champ and are accurate as hell, but I choose ones that I trust like anything else.
I currently use a G21sf and a Dawson Precision Tactical Advantage as my plain clothes carry pieces. Yes, they are heavy in plain clothes use... get a good holster and have a big build...:D
One of the FBI regional SWAT teams dumped their 1911s for G21s. In late 06 or early 07 they had a bunch of failure to fire issues. Not sure how they were resolved. FWIW, word is the AG and Director protective details are also making the switch to G21s.
Interesting though that the 21 is labeled Glock's worst. I thought that honor went to the single stack G36 (45ACP). Even the kool-aid drinkers don't seem to trust it. :D
Only pistol I'd bet my life on. That or my G19, but I like the 45 punch. I have the 21SF if that matters.
Steelblitz
02-17-09, 02:02
Some interesting revelations in this thread about the G21. Myself, I trained with and carried the 1911 in the Corps. Bought a Colt 1911 and nice Springfield 1911 with some custom mods for personal use. I love shooting the 1911, beautiful pistol, but my trust is in my G21 I bought back in 94. Between those two pistols, the G21 runs flawless for me compared to any 1911 I've shot on duty or on my own time. My wife is picking up a G30SF in a couple weeks for herself.
variablebinary
02-17-09, 02:51
G21's are too big for my hand so I wont consider one.
Still, I think they are good guns. They manage to sell well and maintain a firm LEO presence.
I have a G21SF, and it's the most impressive handgun I've ever fired. Now, granted, it is sort of a biased opinion, since I've owned nothing but Glocks, and wouldn't ever consider any other manufacturer. I've shot many 1911 varieties, XD's, M&P's, but the shape and feel of the Glock is just more natural for ME. That may not be the case with other people. Do your research, test fire other pistols, and see which one fits you best. As far as accuracy, I shot the X ring out of the center of a standard police target at 7 yards with 10 230 gr fmj. No malfuctions after 1000 rnds.
I've owned both the 21 and SF model. I sold the standard model because the SF fit my hand better. Having said that, I couldn't be happier with either of them. Am I an expert like Mr. Vickers? Not even close. But for my purposes (casual shooter), it was great. Relatively inexpensive, simple design, and completely reliable.
There have been several issues raised on this thread that really haven't been sufficiently addressed regarding contemporary Glock G21s (and by contemporary, I mean 3rd Generation, finger-grooved, railed receiver guns-and if they're in the E-serial sequence requiring new receiver frames, they've received them. By definition, these guns come with the slightly abbreviated/humped feed rail,the olive spring loaded bearing piece, and, if they're post 2006 production, will have the 4256-1 triggerbar; {if they're 1997-2006 production G21s, and have encountered any light strike issues, it's assumed that the original triggerbar has been replaced with the 4256-1 piece}.
These guns will, also by definition, have the post-1992 modified breech face cut, and the concurrently modified and improved extractor, with the additional debris channel and 15 degree cut.
Here's the $64,000 question that I think really remains to be answered: As LAV did his original sand test in 2001, and the 3rd Gen G21s were introduced in 1997, I suspect that it's a fair assumption that there is a high probability that his G21 test subject was an earlier generation G21, and that some of the "fleas"/qualms he has had with the G21 are very possibly based on components that have in reality subsequently been addressed by Glock (not that his sand test as administered in 2001 to a current production G21 would necessarily produce any different results {let's face it-the PTOOMA test of a Glock in a cement mixer with gravel, sand and dirt produced pretty much the same results-the answer, as LAV himself has posed, is that if there's a high probability of carrying the gun in a high velocity sand/dirt exposure environment, simply seal off the butt cavity with either a plug or tape}, but I certainly think that the extractor issues cited have been vanquished).
The LAPD (and other publicly discussed agency issues with the G21) have predominantly centered on the light strike issue, which, if nothing else, seems to have been sufficiently resolved by proper maintenance techniques (such as not squirting oil into the firing pin channel) and/or replacing the original triggerbar with the current one, which imparts a bit more force to the striker. I have not been aware of extractor issues subsequent to the extractor modifications (assuming, of course, that a user doesn't chamber a round and then release the slide on the chambered round-that has a HIGH liklihood of chipping the extractor-on a G21 and most other semi-automatic pistols.
So-have individuals/agencies/trainers participating on this forum seen problems (or not) with current production G21s as defined?
On my personal sample size of my one 3rd Generation G21, purchased BNIB in 2006, I have encountered literally ONE issue-with a out-of-spec Winchester cartridge that would have failed to chamber in ANY .45 ACP gun...I hardly consider my G21 to be a dog, or flea-infested, based on my admittedly limited sample size of one G21...
Since the original test was conducted in 2001, and the 3rd Gen Glocks introduced in 1997, and the LAPD issue(s) resolved in mid-2006, and it currently being 2009, what, if any issues CURRENTLY exist on such CURRENT guns-or are we just repeating anecdotal/experiencial issues on previous generational guns that occurred years ago? And, let's restrict our discussion to Glock G21/G21 SF guns ONLY...
Best, Jon
I've owned both the 21 and SF model. I sold the standard model because the SF fit my hand better. Having said that, I couldn't be happier with either of them. Am I an expert like Mr. Vickers? Not even close. But for my purposes (casual shooter), it was great. Relatively inexpensive, simple design, and completely reliable.
Same here, as well the test that Old Painless did on his G21 still impresses me. I'm very happy with mine.
SW-Shooter
02-18-09, 22:13
Does LAV make and sell Glocks? NO.
Does he make and sell 1911s? Yes.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
Does LAV make and sell Glocks? NO.
Does he make and sell 1911s? Yes.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
Actually, LAV has not done gunsmithing on 1911s in a while. If you take his 1911 Operator's class you will hear him say that the 1911 is far from the be-all and end-all.
seekretsqrl
02-19-09, 05:08
I've had my G21 for 10 years as my primary duty weapon and have fired thousands and thousands of rounds through it. I can probably recall one malfunction and that was ammo related. It is just as accurate as the 9mm versions as I have seen both used at the range during qualifications. I like the weapon system and other's in my department have actually switched to the 21's from the normal 17's or 19's.
Does LAV make and sell Glocks? NO.
Does he make and sell 1911s? Yes.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
That's so far off the mark, its not funny.
Do you know Mr. Vickers? Taken a class from him? Hell e-mail him and ask him, but don't just assume you know.
Bob
Does LAV make and sell Glocks? NO.
Does he make and sell 1911s? Yes.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
I'll warn you gently this time, but disrespect like this will not be tolerated towards Industry Professionals.
You are so far off the mark on this comment, I'll just chalk up your statement to pure and willful ignorance on this matter.
Littlelebowski
02-19-09, 09:41
Does LAV make and sell Glocks? NO.
Does he make and sell 1911s? Yes.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
Wrong and demonstrably so. Larry has said publicly that the Glock 17 is the ideal service pistol.
Alright, those who know understand SW-Shooter is a little misguided on this point, let's move on and back on topic.
No more discussion of SW-Shooter's comments, agreed? Good! :)
I bought a G21SF(standard glock rail) 2 months ago. I cannot say enough great things about it. I took my G21SF, G36, and 2 Kimber 1911s to the range 4 weeks ago. I bought 4 boxes of Magtech, the cheapest .45ACP they had.
I have never experienced so many problems with 1911s prior to that day. Usually both Kimbers run 98%. I had FTFeed's every other to every 3rd round.
After 3 mags in each gun not liking the Magtech, I put them away.
Both Glock .45 cal pistols (21SF, 36) ate over 80 rounds each of the same ammo with no problems.
I consider 1911's hobby guns, I would never ever trust my life to a 1911 over a Glock.
($.02 entered)
Littlelebowski
02-19-09, 09:52
I've need to shoot a 21SF. The regular 21 shoots great for me, just too big for my medium sized hands.
I've need to shoot a 21SF. The regular 21 shoots great for me, just too big for my medium sized hands.
I shot Shivan's G21 and while it was big I shot it pretty well. I would like to try a G21SF and I would buy one if I could find it with the standard Glock rail and normal mag release.
There's your answer. Sometimes people plow the field the day before the contest. You compete on their home turf, who do you think has the advantage.
Dude, that is so out of line I'm surprised your computer didn't electrocute you while you were typing.
Without sticking my nose too far into Larry's professional business, when he did that test it was for a military unit he was part of, and to suggest even for a second that Larry would put his part-time gunsmithing business ahead of the lives, welfare, and mission capability of his unit is shameful.
I'm willing to bet $100 you wouldn't say something like that to Larry's face. So why say it on the internet?
edited to add: Mea culpa, didn't see Shivan's post until after I typed. Mods, feel free to delete if you wish.
Officially: This should be the last commentary on SW-Shooter's comments.
Littlelebowski
02-19-09, 10:41
I know Todd's posted somewhere on this site something along the lines of "just because the smaller grip feels better than the larger doesn't mean you will shoot better with it." I found that out to be true when I had my M&P. I shot better with the medium sized grip insert though the smallest one "felt" better.
Exactly right. Too many people think that the gun should feel good in the hand, but feeling good isn't the same as shooting well. A grip that feels a little big might actually be providing a much greater contact patch between your palms and the grip frame, meaning better shot recovery. Too small a grip might allow your trigger finger to contact the frame as you press the trigger, which can cause misses.
On the flipside, if a gun is so big around that you cannot comfortable get your palm heels to touch (using a modern thumbs-forward grip) while still getting your weak hand fingers to curl around the front of your strong hand, then the grip is definitely too big for you.
And it's not just size but a matter of contours.
Another thing to consider is that even if a grip feels good, you need to have comfortable access to things like the mag catch, slide release, etc. Gaining a tiny bit of recoil recovery at the expense of fumbled mag drops is not a good trade-off.
MisterWilson
02-19-09, 10:48
I shot Shivan's G21 and while it was big I shot it pretty well. I would like to try a G21SF and I would buy one if I could find it with the standard Glock rail and normal mag release.
That particular model is particularly elusive. They only appear when you're dead broke.
I really don't understand why so many shops order it with the ambi magazine release. And most of them look at you like a dog doing algebra when you ask about ordering it without...
Littlelebowski
02-19-09, 10:52
That particular model is particularly elusive. They only appear when you're dead broke.
There's quite a few guns that guns that do that to me :D
That particular model is particularly elusive. They only appear when you're dead broke.
I really don't understand why so many shops order it with the ambi magazine release. And most of them look at you like a dog doing algebra when you ask about ordering it without...
What's strange about that is the new G20SF (same frame as the G21SF) is not being offered with a ambi-mag catch, only the regular one. So I would think that the G21SF with regular mag catch would start showing up more frequently.
Odd...
Code3Patriot
02-19-09, 11:18
That particular model is particularly elusive. They only appear when you're dead broke.
I really don't understand why so many shops order it with the ambi magazine release. And most of them look at you like a dog doing algebra when you ask about ordering it without...
I just bought a 21SF from my LE supplier (LC Action - San Jose, CA). All of their 21SFs had the Glock rail and it was about half and half that had the ambi release. With the 20SF out I would imagine the non ambi 21SFs will become easier to find.
There's quite a few guns that guns that do that to me :D
And you need another handgun like you need a hole in your arm .... ohh, right. Sorry. :p
And you need another handgun like you need a hole in your arm .... ohh, right. Sorry. :p
Daaaaaaaaammmnnnn!
That was low...funny but low :D
Every now and then I hear that Glock will be discontinuing the standard G-21 in favor of the "SF" variant. Just more Errornet rumors or maybe some truth in that?
Exactly right. Too many people think that the gun should feel good in the hand, but feeling good isn't the same as shooting well. A grip that feels a little big might actually be providing a much greater contact patch between your palms and the grip frame, meaning better shot recovery. Too small a grip might allow your trigger finger to contact the frame as you press the trigger, which can cause misses. .
Hell yes.
Most folks judge fit/feel in dry handling at the counter. Live fire is the important measure.
As I often note, the G21 and G21SF feel minimally different...until you shoot them.
I personally prefer my "big butt" 3rd Generation G21 to the G21 SF; not that I have anything against the SF, but I don't have a problem gripping or indexing to the regular receiver, and I like how the configuration of the larger receiver seems to help me "steer" the gun during transitions from target to target.
If I was to go with an SF varient, I'd definitely prefer the non-ambi magazine release/standard rail version-fewer chances of accidently activating the magazine release when holstered, less obtrusive rails (easier to holster {and to find holsters for}), and any and all G21 magazines will work in it.
For organizational selection, where a common Glock gun in .45 ACP is needed/ideal to index to a variety of hand sizes, the SF makes a great deal of sense.
Best, Jon
SW-Shooter
02-19-09, 19:19
I'll warn you gently this time, but disrespect like this will not be tolerated towards Industry Professionals.
You are so far off the mark on this comment, I'll just chalk up your statement to pure and willful ignorance on this matter.
Well excuuuuse meeeee.:cool: I may not be up to date on what Mr. Vickers does now, but from past remarks and comments his entire philosophy was 1911's rule the roost.
Pointing out my opinion wasn't being disrespectful, geez don't say anything against the "gun Gods" around here. My point was it seemed like the opinion on the Glock was made before the testing began. Based on his history and like many of the gun guys, once an opinion is made there is no changing it. That's why my comments seemed harsh. Too many times the fossils in the industry seem to shun the new stuff and revert back to the 1911 is the gun of the Gods. I place Mr. Vickers on the mantle of a true "mans man". I respect him as one would an uncle that served in combat. He truly has a wealth of knowledge and I know that in my lifetime I will never hold a candle to him in many area's.
I've owned just about every mass produced 1911 based gun. Every single one of them had their hiccups and were the drama queens of the group. The Glock platform is the only gun that I have never experienced a single malfunction out of the box, every single time.
I like the 1911 platform but I just can't get around the issue's of having to tune them so they run like the proverbial raped ape. I really believe the Glock is superior to any other handgun and use one daily to protect my life.
In conclusion, I should have reread my comments before I posted them. But I usually post what I feel. If I disrespect it is unintentional, but what I say comes from the heart and I won't apologize for that. In retrospect I bear no ill will towards him and didn't mean to come across like an ass, a respected member like LAV deserved better.
Gee, was that actually an apology? "gun Gods" "fossils of the industry" ?:rolleyes:
Whether your opinions or LAV's opinions is "right" or "wrong" isn't the point. Its the way you assume what LAV's opinions actually are. And did you read the previous posts regarding what LAV's opinion might actually be regarding Glocks and 1911's? Have you read his previous posts regarding Glocks right here in this forum? LAV's opinions like most sophisticated people are far more complex than you assume.
Well excuuuuse meeeee.:cool: I may not be up to date on what Mr. Vickers does now, but from past remarks and comments his entire philosophy was 1911's rule the roost.
Pointing out my opinion wasn't being disrespectful, geez don't say anything against the "gun Gods" around here. My point was it seemed like the opinion on the Glock was made before the testing began. Based on his history and like many of the gun guys, once an opinion is made there is no changing it. That's why my comments seemed harsh. Too many times the fossils in the industry seem to shun the new stuff and revert back to the 1911 is the gun of the Gods. I place Mr. Vickers on the mantle of a true "mans man". I respect him as one would an uncle that served in combat. He truly has a wealth of knowledge and I know that in my lifetime I will never hold a candle to him in many area's.
I've owned just about every mass produced 1911 based gun. Every single one of them had their hiccups and were the drama queens of the group. The Glock platform is the only gun that I have never experienced a single malfunction out of the box, every single time.
I like the 1911 platform but I just can't get around the issue's of having to tune them so they run like the proverbial raped ape. I really believe the Glock is superior to any other handgun and use one daily to protect my life.
In conclusion, I should have reread my comments before I posted them. But I usually post what I feel. If I disrespect it is unintentional, but what I say comes from the heart and I won't apologize for that. In retrospect I bear no ill will towards him and didn't mean to come across like an ass, a respected member like LAV deserved better.
SW-Shooter: When you come back from your 7 day vacation, I hope you'll be a little more understanding that calling someone's integrity in to question -- especially an industry professional on this forum -- will not be tolerated.
I gave you a pass on the initial idiotic comment, only to be rewarded with this gem of a backhanded apology.
If after your 7 days are up, you still don't understand why your initial and follow-up comments will not fly here, we can arrange to make this "vacation" permanent.
Thanks.
Everyone else:
Let's get back on topic, and stay there. :D
What's strange about that is the new G20SF (same frame as the G21SF) is not being offered with a ambi-mag catch, only the regular one. So I would think that the G21SF with regular mag catch would start showing up more frequently.
Odd...
Granted, this came from a local gun pusher, but when asked, he informed me that all future G21SFs will be coming with the standard mag release due a large number of complaints Glock as received about broken mag releases. Whether or not that is truly the case, I don't know and I don't have any way to confirm it. Given that the most recent Glock Annual lists the ambi-release in the specifications, I'm skeptical. Not that I wasn't already skeptical due to the source. However, if it is true, it would appear that the G21SF everyone seems to be clamoring for will become more readily available.
Can anyone confirm this?
Littlelebowski
02-20-09, 11:58
And you need another handgun like you need a hole in your arm .... ohh, right. Sorry. :p
Accusations of SIMP (http://pistol-training.com/archives/70) keep flying...
Granted, this came from a local gun pusher, but when asked, he informed me that all future G21SFs will be coming with the standard mag release due a large number of complaints Glock as received about broken mag releases. Whether or not that is truly the case, I don't know and I don't have any way to confirm it. Given that the most recent Glock Annual lists the ambi-release in the specifications, I'm skeptical. Not that I wasn't already skeptical due to the source. However, if it is true, it would appear that the G21SF everyone seems to be clamoring for will become more readily available.
Can anyone confirm this?
I heard a similar "rumor" not long ago. We'll just have to wait and see but since the G20SF isn't being offered with the ambi mag release I tend to believe it just might be true.
I'mGatMan!
02-20-09, 22:33
I LOVED my 21sf. I just recently sold it to consolidate my pistols in terms of caliber, however for over a year-and-a-half, it was a sweet shooter, and I NEVER had a failure on it. Recoil on it was VERY manageable. There was barely any muzzle flip, so it felt like it pushed back toward my chest a bit everytime it went bang. Multiple times I've handed to ladies I was training, and watched their eyes get huge when they held it. Then, after firing off a few, I'd get that smile people get when they REALLY enjoy a gun.
ETA: Here's a pic of the 21sf I sold. As mentioned before, the short frame really works best if you have smaller hands. Well...my hands/fingers are so short and stubby that I had to go even further than most. This is Boresight Solutions' extreme reduction, which alters the grip angle to resemble that of a 1911, molds a magazine feed ramp where the butt hole used to be, adds stippling, and thins the girth of frame even more.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm29/Prozepoetik/Xtreme21sf-1.jpg
Just curious...what 45ACP caliber pistols (if any) are recommended by LAV and others?
Just curious...what 45ACP caliber pistols (if any) are recommended by LAV and others?
Unless something has changed in the last couple months, he told one of our classes that is was like this in his mind:
HK45
M&P45
1911
just bought a G-21SF .... 200rnds no problem!!! :D
I hit one of the local gun shops today but no luck on a G21SF. I did pick up a case of PMC 9mm while I was there but I'll have to wait until next weekend to check out the other local shop in my hunt for a G21SF!
The local gun shop I use had a "Glock Day" today with a local rep changing sights for free and such. They had quite a huge inventory of Glocks to sell, including G22 RTF, G21SF, and G19. No G20SF, though, which is good because I probably would have bought one as an impulse thing. :cool:
I hit one of the local gun shops today but no luck on a G21SF. I did pick up a case of PMC 9mm while I was there but I'll have to wait until next weekend to check out the other local shop in my hunt for a G21SF!
Funny, G21SF are dime a dozen around her...no 9mm glocks to be found though!
The local gun shop I use had a "Glock Day" today with a local rep changing sights for free and such. They had quite a huge inventory of Glocks to sell, including G22 RTF, G21SF, and G19. No G20SF, though, which is good because I probably would have bought one as an impulse thing. :cool:
Haha! I know the feeling and I think that is why I went to the shop this morning in the first place. But in the end common sense prevailed (for now) and I only left with ammo. :cool:
mrosamilia
02-21-09, 17:40
I have a 21SF with the Pic rail and factory night sights. I just hit 500 rounds this past Wed. I have had 0 issues to date. I know that this is not by any means a good example, but I am happy so far with all sorts of range and SD ammo. I must say that my only gripe is the ambi mag button, no matter which side you engage it from it is still extremely stiff.
Contrary to popular belief on other sites I do like the Pic rail as it is much easier to get my GTL light and laser combo on and off. Just my 2 cents.
Sometimes it is hard to please
everyone.
Ed
dialM4murder
03-27-10, 19:34
Great thread, even if it is 3 years old. Great wealth of knowledge here.
I have approx 400 rds through my 21sf (standard rail) with a Surefire X300 with no problems of any kind except the ammo fairy forgot to leave a deposit at my house.:mad:
I have 2 21sf of which I have had zero problems. As it was stated - its a tool - if the tool works for you great if not try something else.
I think this really comes down to what one deems "reliable". For most civilians and LEOs it is probably fine. If you are a member Super Secret Squirrel Team 6, and putting hundreds of thousands of rounds through the pipe, dragging it through sand, dirt, mud, etc. than you may better off with an M&P45 or an HK45.
My $.02
The g21 is foot propelled arty. For my hands, it is jus too big and this is coming from a usp .45 user. If it floats your boat, fine.
These types of tests get a lot of attention, but are generally meaningless for 99.99% of the folks contemplating getting one.
For a test of a mechanical device to be useful it has to be repeatable so you get the same results every time. I don't think that would happen with most of the the Glock or other pistol "torture tests" which is why I find them about as useful as people shooting JHP's into wet phonebooks and making decisions based on that.
BLACK LION
07-28-10, 19:52
There have been several issues raised on this thread that really haven't been sufficiently addressed regarding contemporary Glock G21s (and by contemporary, I mean 3rd Generation, finger-grooved, railed receiver guns-and if they're in the E-serial sequence requiring new receiver frames, they've received them. By definition, these guns come with the slightly abbreviated/humped feed rail,the olive spring loaded bearing piece, and, if they're post 2006 production, will have the 4256-1 triggerbar; {if they're 1997-2006 production G21s, and have encountered any light strike issues, it's assumed that the original triggerbar has been replaced with the 4256-1 piece}.
These guns will, also by definition, have the post-1992 modified breech face cut, and the concurrently modified and improved extractor, with the additional debris channel and 15 degree cut.
Here's the $64,000 question that I think really remains to be answered: As LAV did his original sand test in 2001, and the 3rd Gen G21s were introduced in 1997, I suspect that it's a fair assumption that there is a high probability that his G21 test subject was an earlier generation G21, and that some of the "fleas"/qualms he has had with the G21 are very possibly based on components that have in reality subsequently been addressed by Glock (not that his sand test as administered in 2001 to a current production G21 would necessarily produce any different results {let's face it-the PTOOMA test of a Glock in a cement mixer with gravel, sand and dirt produced pretty much the same results-the answer, as LAV himself has posed, is that if there's a high probability of carrying the gun in a high velocity sand/dirt exposure environment, simply seal off the butt cavity with either a plug or tape}, but I certainly think that the extractor issues cited have been vanquished).
The LAPD (and other publicly discussed agency issues with the G21) have predominantly centered on the light strike issue, which, if nothing else, seems to have been sufficiently resolved by proper maintenance techniques (such as not squirting oil into the firing pin channel) and/or replacing the original triggerbar with the current one, which imparts a bit more force to the striker. I have not been aware of extractor issues subsequent to the extractor modifications (assuming, of course, that a user doesn't chamber a round and then release the slide on the chambered round-that has a HIGH liklihood of chipping the extractor-on a G21 and most other semi-automatic pistols.
So-have individuals/agencies/trainers participating on this forum seen problems (or not) with current production G21s as defined?
On my personal sample size of my one 3rd Generation G21, purchased BNIB in 2006, I have encountered literally ONE issue-with a out-of-spec Winchester cartridge that would have failed to chamber in ANY .45 ACP gun...I hardly consider my G21 to be a dog, or flea-infested, based on my admittedly limited sample size of one G21...
Since the original test was conducted in 2001, and the 3rd Gen Glocks introduced in 1997, and the LAPD issue(s) resolved in mid-2006, and it currently being 2009, what, if any issues CURRENTLY exist on such CURRENT guns-or are we just repeating anecdotal/experiencial issues on previous generational guns that occurred years ago? And, let's restrict our discussion to Glock G21/G21 SF guns ONLY...
Best, Jon
This is a great post with a question that needs to be answered... I keep getting references to LAV's 2001 G21 test BUT its almost a decade later.
Yeah its an old thread but at least I used the search function.
DarwinsLilHelper
07-28-10, 21:55
I've owned 2 Gen 1 Glock 21's. Still own one. I've never had any reliability problems other than a box of the old Speer Flying Ash Tray Hollow Points and they never fed worth a darn in anything else either.
Other than that single poorly designed bullet. I've never run into anything the Glock 21's wouldn't eat right up.
I've got fairly large hands. So I don't sit around and cry about the grip all day.
I guess my only complaint about the 21 would be that its big chunkyness has the handling characteristics of a brick with a handle on it, in a world of sleeker newer better ergonomically designed poly .45's.
If I were going to buy a 21 sized poly .45 tomorrow. I'm afraid the S&W M&P midsize .45 would beat the Glock hands down and thats from someone who's continuously had a Glock 21 around for 17 years.
BLACK LION--did you read post #52 on page 3 of this thread?
Doc,
STOP dropping logic bombs in this thread!!! :)
BLACK LION
07-29-10, 12:04
BLACK LION--did you read post #52 on page 3 of this thread?
Gents
the story behind that sand test from years ago was the sand issues overseas - we tested the 1911 in 2 flavors, the HK USP tactical, and the Glock 21 - the results shocked everyone; up until that time I did not realize the open channel to the trigger mech was such a big issue in extreme environments - now I recommend a buttplug on all Glock's as cheap insurance
I am confident that if we would have installed a buttplug on the G21 and ran the test again the results would have been different with the G21 doing alot better
In addition there had been tests conducted to determine if the USP and G21 would be suitable replacements to the 1911's in use - every single Glock 21 had broken extractors during the testing and at a relatively low round count - this result dovetailed into what I had seen and heard elsewhere in the firearms industry at the time - the G21 had serious fleas and was to be avoided
Perhaps the newer G21's are better guns - time will tell. I will watch and learn as I travel and train more shooters than all but a very select few of professional trainers - if there is a problem with a gun, optic, mount, ammo, etc. we hear about it and see it very early in the game
As of right now I cannot recommend Glock's in calibers other than 9mm - period
If you want to ignore that advice that is an individual choice and more power to you - but anyone who knows me will tell you I don't sugarcoat anything and that I am a straight shooter - as my friend Ken Hackathorn says about me 'if you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question - cause Larry could care less if you like the answer or not'
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
This was in 08... anything more recent Doc???Thanks in advance.
I was also recently told by a "police armorer/gunsmith" that he advised against the butt plug since that is supposed to be a "drainage point"???They looked at me like I was stupid for asking to buy two of them off thier shelf the other day...??? Of course, the words here weigh much heavier than thier "gunshop wisdom" but there seems to be 2 sides and a bunch of mixed reviews...??? I am just trying to make heads or tails of all this sheet... I am just trying to get a little assistance in making sure I steer in the right direction...
I decided to run a G17 and if I am not mistaken one of the thumbs up I got on them came from you. I went with the Glock again for a few reasons including uniformity between the two.
If the G21's produced post 2009 are still "dog with fleas", then I would like to know... AND, I would also like to know if there is any cure other than selling it???
I appreciate your response.
ColdDeadHands
07-29-10, 14:07
I love my G21SF because I don't. To some of you this might make sense. lol
Seriously tho, I don't care about it which makes it an excellent carry gun...sweat doesn't bother it, scratches - who cares? Holds 14 rounds of .45 and an extra 13 in the spare mag...goes bang when I pull the trigger...is decently accurate & if it gets logged as evidence I'm out $540...not bad.
All that being said, I'll probably retire it soon to nightstand duty and get a G17 for carry.
BLACK LION
07-29-10, 18:00
I love my G21SF because I don't.
This makes perfect sense...
John_Wayne777
07-29-10, 21:02
This was in 08... anything more recent Doc???
How much more recent do you want? Given that Glock hasn't really made any significant changes to their .45 lineup it is unlikely that the advice kindly offered by one of our most qualified SME's has hit the expiration date.
I was also recently told by a "police armorer/gunsmith" that he advised against the butt plug since that is supposed to be a "drainage point"???
It may well have been designed as a drainage point...but any option that lets fluid out also has the potential to let crud in. The question becomes, then, what happens to be more applicable to your situation. Speaking personally, I rarely find myself swimming with a Glock. I do occasionally find myself in circumstances where crud can accumulate in the weapon, so a grip plug might be a good idea.
but there seems to be 2 sides and a bunch of mixed reviews...???
...and there always will be.
Generally speaking, both sides are not equal in terms of background, experience, or understanding.
What, if any, attributes does the Glock 21 possess that would recommend it over the other polymer .45's on the market?
Singlestack Wonder
07-29-10, 21:24
What, if any, attributes does the Glock 21 possess that would recommend it over the other polymer .45's on the market?
20+ years of proven technology.....
John_Wayne777
07-29-10, 21:45
What, if any, attributes does the Glock 21 possess that would recommend it over the other polymer .45's on the market?
Several years ago it was one of a very few polymer .45's on the market. After the now defunct JCP program there are a lot more options on the market than there used to be.
Like the .40 Glocks, some of the .45 Glocks seem to work pretty good...in aggregate they just aren't as fool-proof as their 9mm brethren. The SF version of the G21 improves the ergonomics of what is a pretty big gun, but those with smaller hands will still probably find other options on the market to be superior for their needs. The .45 M&P has seen some use in LE and so far seems to be doing quite well in that market. The HK45 is the HK45...probably the BMW of the polymer .45 market.
...so the short answer is that now that there are more options on the market, not as much as there used to be. It's not the only polymer .45 option on the market anymore.
Magic_Salad0892
07-30-10, 03:23
I don't know if it's been posted but here is Steve's (ADCO) torture test on a G21.
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
I'll buy a Gen4 G21. :)
A .40 is probably the only Glock I wouldn't own.
BLACK LION
07-30-10, 10:42
How much more recent do you want? Given that Glock hasn't really made any significant changes to their .45 lineup it is unlikely that the advice kindly offered by one of our most qualified SME's has hit the expiration date.
It may well have been designed as a drainage point...but any option that lets fluid out also has the potential to let crud in. The question becomes, then, what happens to be more applicable to your situation. Speaking personally, I rarely find myself swimming with a Glock. I do occasionally find myself in circumstances where crud can accumulate in the weapon, so a grip plug might be a good idea.
...and there always will be.
Generally speaking, both sides are not equal in terms of background, experience, or understanding.
Fair enough... closed mouths dont get fed so I just though I would ask. Thanks.
Another question... Does the aftermarket magwell double as a butt plug as well???
BLACK LION
07-30-10, 10:48
20+ years of proven technology.....
I factored this(somewhat) into my decision to go with one. One of the reasons I chose an HK USP as well.
I guess we will see.
BLACK LION
07-30-10, 10:54
I don't know if it's been posted but here is Steve's (ADCO) torture test on a G21.
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
I'll buy a Gen4 G21. :)
A .40 is probably the only Glock I wouldn't own.
That test was one of the reasons I decided to get one.
How much more recent do you want? Given that Glock hasn't really made any significant changes to their .45 lineup it is unlikely that the advice kindly offered by one of our most qualified SME's has hit the expiration date.
It may well have been designed as a drainage point...but any option that lets fluid out also has the potential to let crud in. The question becomes, then, what happens to be more applicable to your situation. Speaking personally, I rarely find myself swimming with a Glock. I do occasionally find myself in circumstances where crud can accumulate in the weapon, so a grip plug might be a good idea.
...and there always will be.
Generally speaking, both sides are not equal in terms of background, experience, or understanding.
I think your rather abrupt dismissal of Black Lion's query is a bit harsh; as I laid out in my thread answer that Black Lion quoted when he re-emerged this thread, there in fact have been changes introduced by Glock which could negate some of LAV's earlier criticisms, particularly if LAV was in fact using an early G21 pre-dating the changes, which has never really been clarified (and, in all fairness, given the passage of time, may not be capable of being definitively nailed down).
Additionally, there has never really been an objective test conducted concurrently both WITH and WITHOUT a plug , as far as I know, to determine the true viability of a butt plug for varying operational environments-although I agree that in an environment with pervasive and/or high-velocity sand and dirt they're likely to be beneficial to preclude jamming of the action, as the LAV and PTOOMA tests discovered.
My short take: 1) Pervasive/high velocity sand and dirt: Plug; 2) Ice, snow, heavy rain, maritime: No plug; 3) Temperate climate: No plug; 4)Concealed carry: Plug unlikely needed
Best, Jon
I have no issues with the Glock 21 although the SF RTF 2 would be my first choice. They have always been plenty reliable for me and I haven't heard a lot of complaints. I think Glock 21's are good to go. I do find the M&P .45 easier to shoot rapidly and accurately.
John_Wayne777
07-30-10, 22:59
Since this thread seems to want to head for the ditch every few posts, it's time to lock it. It will remain as a searchable resource...but hopefully the nonsense will stop when it is locked.
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