View Full Version : High transfer fee!
A customer bought a gun off of us and sent me the link to the dealer so I could get their info.
That's when I noticed their transfer fee rate. Insult to injury is that he also has to pay 9.5% sales tax! :help:
http://www.discountgunsales.com/ffl-transfers-pg-5.html
C4
nineteenkilo
11-20-12, 08:34
Wow! I think the most I have ever paid is $10 or so. This seems a little (okay a lot) extreme - talk about price gouging.
SpankMonkey
11-20-12, 08:34
Hahaha that is some discount.
davidjinks
11-20-12, 08:51
And that there is the real problem...
New Washington state law.......
I honestly believe a transfer fee over $15 is robbery. Although I have been told by an FFL that........(direct quote)
"Why do you say this? Are you an FFL? Did you have to go through the detailed paperwork to become an FFL? Do you get suprise inspections from the ATF knocking on your door to come in and look at your books anytime? Do you have to take the time to log in each firearm and make sure your paperwork is 100% correct? If any of these answers are No, then WTF!? It costs $300 to be a type 1 FFL, plus all the time it takes to do the transfer and do your paperwork. If someone is charging less than $20, then they are doing it for a friend or are too cheap. Most charge $20 to $30. If this is too expensive for you, then go get your own FFL."
My response.....
Are you kidding me? Do you REALLY expect me to feel bad for someone making plenty of money? Even at $15 dollars it would only take 20 transfers to make your huge $300 Lic. fee back. If you arent doing 20 transfers in a year, you're probably charging $40 bucks a transfer lol. Oh no, not the ATF coming to look at your paperwork....some people..
It is absolutely disgraceful to see a gun dealer not only ripping people off, but also adding yet another hurdle on the gun buyers increasingly difficult track to ownership.
I honestly believe a transfer fee over $15 is robbery. Although I have been told by an FFL that........(direct quote)
"Why do you say this? Are you an FFL? Did you have to go through the detailed paperwork to become an FFL? Do you get suprise inspections from the ATF knocking on your door to come in and look at your books anytime? Do you have to take the time to log in each firearm and make sure your paperwork is 100% correct? If any of these answers are No, then WTF!? It costs $300 to be a type 1 FFL, plus all the time it takes to do the transfer and do your paperwork. If someone is charging less than $20, then they are doing it for a friend or are too cheap. Most charge $20 to $30. If this is too expensive for you, then go get your own FFL."
My response.....
Are you kidding me? Do you REALLY expect me to feel bad for someone making plenty of money? Even at $15 dollars it would only take 20 transfers to make your huge $300 Lic. fee back. If you arent doing 20 transfers in a year, you're probably charging $40 bucks a transfer lol. Oh no, not the ATF coming to look at your paperwork....some people..
We charge between zero and $20 for a transfer (depending on who you are to me). With that said, the paper work and dealing with the ATF sucks and the less 4473's you do (especially on guns that you did not make any money) the better off you are because that is typically where the ATF finds your errors.
In regards to gun dealers making "plenty of money," I am not sure sure on that. I know a lot of struggling ones. There is also a big push in the FFL work to NOT do transfers and force people to buy from the local dealer.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-20-12, 09:44
$25 seems to be the average around here. I found a small place that will do ones for 10-15 depending on how he feels. Even better when getting a gun in he can turn it around with in an hour. No having your gun sit there for a day or so to go thru the paperwork...
BrigandTwoFour
11-20-12, 10:13
The average is $25 to $35 around here, and many of the shops stipulate that they will only do transfers on items that they don't typically carry. To date, the only transfers I've done have been for assembled BCM lowers from Grant (the only place in town that sells stripped lowers only deals in RRA or Ardell Engineering...whoever that is) or .308 lowers, which nobody in town has.
Otherwise, I order it through the dealer and usually get a fair price. Most gun shops in town seem like they aren't out to gouge anyone (MOST...there are a couple, though....). The price they charge for something is generally about what it would be if I went through the trouble of ordering online, paid shipping, and then paid transfer.
However, the Air Force is moving me behind enemy lines (California) in February, and I was doing some reading on transfer fees at a few shops out there. One of them wants a no shit $110 plus tax and additional DROS fee per transfer.
Apricotshot
11-20-12, 10:19
I like the line where they won't accept a transfer from Buds Gunshop.
Eurodriver
11-20-12, 10:25
I always seem mythical posts on the internet
"My dealer charges eleven cents per transfer!" and all this crap about low transfer fees.
Truth is - I haven't met a dealer yet (And I've looked) who charges less than $50.
In fact, I have to drive over three hours away for my Class III transfers if I want to pay less than $125.
After lunch, the $50 transfer fee and gas is all said and done, it works out to be about $125 anyway. But I refuse to give anyone asking that much my business.
A couple local shops around me charge $40
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
I like the line where they won't accept a transfer from Buds Gunshop.
Ya I saw that. Made me laugh. On the FFL ONLY forums, Buds Gun Shop is a bad word. :D
C4
Truth is - I haven't met a dealer yet (And I've looked) who charges less than $50.
Then you probably haven't looked hard enough. Forty should be the maximum and around here it usually is.
I get charged $50 each and $100 for NFA. It's a real pain in the ass...:mad:
We average $25 for a transfer round my neck of the woods. Love the sales tax on the transfer. Wonder when people are gonna begin charging $1 for the item and $x as a handling fee to minimize the tax burden??
My response.....
Are you kidding me? Do you REALLY expect me to feel bad for someone making plenty of money? Even at $15 dollars it would only take 20 transfers to make your huge $300 Lic. fee back. If you arent doing 20 transfers in a year, you're probably charging $40 bucks a transfer lol. Oh no, not the ATF coming to look at your paperwork....some people..
The New American ethic. It got Obama elected.
I know an FFL (not full store front) who charges $15 for the first and $5 for each additional done at the same time.
Another guy, a friend of mine, just opened up a small storefront to go along with their protective services business. He charges $20.
Utah must be easy going.
Though I am not an FFL, I get a couple "industry" magazines in the mail (for free). They are geared towards FFL and it is always the big debate on doing transfers, etc. And Buds (often with some pseudonym used instead) is one of the prime examples of abusers listed. It is interesting to read.
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I will not have any guns transferred at brick and mortar gun shops. Honestly most are arrogant and unfriendly.
I find the local guys working out of their garage or back room man room of their house to do my FFL transfers through. They do it as a little side business and are nice and only charge 20 bucks typically. They are generally quick to send their FFL information out to the selling party and some that I have developed good relationships with have even given me a copy of their ffl; when I buy a gun I just send the FFL to the seller and give them the ffls contact info and bingo bango.
I will not have any guns transferred at brick and mortar gun shops. Honestly most are arrogant and unfriendly.
I find the local guys working out of their garage or back room man room of their house to do my FFL transfers through. They do it as a little side business and are nice and only charge 20 bucks typically. They are generally quick to send their FFL information out to the selling party and some that I have developed good relationships with have even given me a copy of their ffl; when I buy a gun I just send the FFL to the seller and give them the ffls contact info and bingo bango.
Same here - $25 for somebody in my neighborhood seems like a princely sum for Title 1 stuff, but $100 for NFA and the massive convenience of being able to walk there if needed is worthwhile. I'm sure he's making more than enough money for it to be worth his trouble, especially since the only competition is those B&M stores that are asking $50 to handle the same deal for an item they have out of stock that I was trying to order online.
I always seem mythical posts on the internet
"My dealer charges eleven cents per transfer!" and all this crap about low transfer fees.
Truth is - I haven't met a dealer yet (And I've looked) who charges less than $50.
In fact, I have to drive over three hours away for my Class III transfers if I want to pay less than $125.
After lunch, the $50 transfer fee and gas is all said and done, it works out to be about $125 anyway. But I refuse to give anyone asking that much my business.
I seem to recall you're near Tampa. There are a few dealers around the area that I know of that charge $25 - $30 per. There was one charging $15 per, but went out of business.
A customer bought a gun off of us and sent me the link to the dealer so I could get their info.
That's when I noticed their transfer fee rate. Insult to injury is that he also has to pay 9.5% sales tax! :help:
http://www.discountgunsales.com/ffl-transfers-pg-5.html
C4
I refuse to do business with that store for various reasons. That is one of them. The other is prices at MSRP and making that price seem like a "deal".
I always seem mythical posts on the internet
"My dealer charges eleven cents per transfer!" and all this crap about low transfer fees.
Truth is - I haven't met a dealer yet (And I've looked) who charges less than $50.
My FFL recently raised his price to $10 from $5. For real. But I think that is because of the rifle club I belong to.
m1a_scoutguy
11-20-12, 12:54
Around my area,,they range from $20,,,,$35 plus Tax !! I never got the friggin Tax part on a transfer,,,"really" !!! As good of a Gun Guy that the $35 dollar one is,,I have not transfered anything with him for a long time,,there are just better choices (cheaper) out there & they are close to me !! I understand the hassle,,,$$$$ involved for the License,,the pain in the ass keeping your books straight,,etc,,everything that goes with it,,,BUT with that said,,a 3 Min Phone call & 5 Min to fill out the paperwork,,,it just seems a bit excessive sometimes. I know the FFL is in business to make $$$ also,,so I understand the fees,,,but when I get a bug up my ass & I want a particular gun,,and everyone tells me,,I'll see what I can do with NO Guarantees of when they can get it,,Gunbroker and other websites are your only choice,,so there lies the problem I guess,,if ya had or could get the gun I want in a reasonable time,,I wouldn't be ordering it on the dam Internet,,LOL !!!
Now with all that said,,,a Friend & I just grabbed 6 AR Lowers and the New FFL in the area,,transfered all for $30 bucks,,,:D he is just starting out and works out of his Dads,,Store Front,,so things are looking good in my area !!
There is one here near me that charges State sales tax. I don't understand that. He's providing a service not goods.
There is one here near me that charges State sales tax. I don't understand that. He's providing a service not goods.
As you may know it's the state's doing and surely it violates a code somewhere, but since this is modern day America most folks will be alarmed for 3 minutes before getting back to brain-****ing their iphones.
A friend of mine, when I lived in Washington State, was a dealer and only charged $20 for a transfer and no tax. Then he was audited by the state and was hit with paying all of the sells tax for the transfers he did. The tax was based on the value of the firearm.
The fact this place charges $75 tells me that they don’t want to do them and would rather sell you one of their guns at a big markup.
$75 is nuts!
I pay $20 and now feel in paying too much. Lol
cost me 35 bucks at Hoover tactical here that is the cheapest i could find most want 50 bucks just to log it in and make a phone call :rolleyes:
Had one that charged me 50 ask why i didn't buy the guns on his shelves.
I looked him in the eye and said "I expect a meal if I am going to get screwed "he got all mad and said his price was fair. I said really a DPMS for 1200 you get them for less than 500 .
I said I have a C&R FFL I get the same sale ads you do but i won't tell people your ripping them off .and i will take my business else where you won't see me again :D he back pedaled quickly and tried to talk about C&R weapons he didn't want to lose that 50 bucks
nineteenkilo
11-20-12, 16:17
These days, I don't pay more than free. Anybody charging some of these prices and then taxes to boot can go eat a bag of dicks and die in a fire.
As was mentioned, all this does is hurt the shooting sports and firearms industry.
These days, I don't pay more than free. Anybody charging some of these prices and then taxes to boot can go eat a bag of dicks and die in a fire.
As was mentioned, all this does is hurt the shooting sports and firearms industry.
So you expect people to do work for you for free?
nineteenkilo
11-20-12, 16:31
So you expect people to do work for you for free?
Really? The point was, as I already stated once in this thread, that $75 plus taxes is exorbitant.
Is this a fair price in your world?
I don't expect anyone to do anything for free.
If anyone believes their local FFLs charge TOO MUCH then pull your own FFL if you think you can do it better. I'll help you get your license even. This is a very serious offer, I've done it for dozens of people in the last 10 years.
If you don't like a FFLs prices, find a different FFL. If their isn't another FFL that you like, get your own. But please don't tell people who are making only $25 on a given transaction that they are ripping people off.
The reality is given everything involved to become a FFL, dealers typically pay more than $25 for each gun that finds their way into their personal collection.
A friend of mine, when I lived in Washington State, was a dealer and only charged $20 for a transfer and no tax. Then he was audited by the state and was hit with paying all of the sells tax for the transfers he did. The tax was based on the value of the firearm.
I want to know how they can legally do that? He did not make a sale. The dealer is doing an administrative transfer in this case.
That is kind of like charging UPS sales tax for all the items they deliver to you that you buy online.
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I want to know how they can legally do that? He did not make a sale. The dealer is doing an administrative transfer in this case.
That is kind of like charging UPS sales tax for all the items they deliver to you that you buy online.
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http://dor.wa.gov/Content/GetAFormOrPublication/PublicationBySubject/TaxTopics/FirearmTransfers.aspx
Heavy Metal
11-20-12, 18:18
I want to know how they can legally do that? He did not make a sale. The dealer is doing an administrative transfer in this case.
That is kind of like charging UPS sales tax for all the items they deliver to you that you buy online.
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He got rolled and should have fought that. At most he should have been liable for tax on the transfer fee. He did not broker the sale at all.
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 18:29
If anyone believes their local FFLs charge TOO MUCH then pull your own FFL if you think you can do it better. I'll help you get your license even. This is a very serious offer, I've done it for dozens of people in the last 10 years.
If you don't like a FFLs prices, find a different FFL. If their isn't another FFL that you like, get your own. But please don't tell people who are making only $25 on a given transaction that they are ripping people off.
The reality is given everything involved to become a FFL, dealers typically pay more than $25 for each gun that finds their way into their personal collection.
It takes my FFL about 5-10 minutes to unpack the gun, have me fill out the 4473, and have me out the door.
If they charge $25 for the fee they are saying their services are worth $150-$300 per hour.
Would you pay someone up to $300 per hour to make phone calls, and write about 3 lines worth of info down a few times an hour?
Of course I realize they have other costs, and it's not just straight pocket money but some of these places are straight up ripping people off. I once had an FFL tell me they wanted 10% the value of the gun. At $2500 he wanted $250 to do a transfer that takes a few minutes.
And yes we can go somewhere else, and as consumers in a capitalist system we can also bitch at retailers all we want. Thats part of capitalism you know...consumers coming together to exchange information and opinions about how retailers do business, give positive and negative reviews, ect. As a consumer I don't really care how much work it takes X to do business. All I care about is how much they want for whatever product or service they offer and if I was interested in running that type of business I'd have already done it.
:)
http://dor.wa.gov/Content/GetAFormOrPublication/PublicationBySubject/TaxTopics/FirearmTransfers.aspx
If I were a lawyer and FFL in WA I would fight the law. No sales transaction occurred and the intermediate is not liable for "use tax" for any other sorts of transactions. It is up for the people to pay their own "use" tax and for WA to go after them, just like their other online sales.
The "law" they cite, in my non-lawyer opinion, is weak in trying to justify this regulation. The FFL does not transfer title or "possession" any more than UPS does when I order something from an online store. The sales transaction and ownership changed at the original sale between the purchaser and the merchant before it was sent to the FFL. The FFL transfer is merely an administrative requirement of federal law and does not constitute a sales transaction nor legal ownership.
Massachusetts tried to collect "use tax" on alcohol purchases by people who went to NH and went to the NH State Liquor Stores and purchased. Undercover state troopers would sit in the parking lot, write down the automobile tags of the Mass residents coming out with product, and estimate what they had bought. The state would then mail them a tax claim. Until they sent one to a lawyer, who sued them and won.
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It takes my FFL about 5-10 minutes to unpack the gun, have me fill out the 4473, and have me out the door.
If they charge $25 for the fee they are saying their services are worth $150-$300 per hour.
Would you pay someone up to $300 per hour to make phone calls, and write about 3 lines worth of info down a few times an hour?
Of course I realize they have other costs, and it's not just straight pocket money but some of these places are straight up ripping people off. I once had an FFL tell me they wanted 10% the value of the gun. At $2500 he wanted $250 to do a transfer that takes a few minutes.
And yes we can go somewhere else, and as consumers in a capitalist system we can also bitch at retailers all we want. Thats part of capitalism you know...consumers coming together to exchange information and opinions about how retailers do business, give positive and negative reviews, ect. As a consumer I don't really care how much work it takes X to do business. All I care about is how much they want for whatever product or service they offer and if I was interested in running that type of business I'd have already done it.
:)
Considering how much Little Caesar can make a pizza for, I think any pizzeria charging more than $6 is making much more than 10%, but I'm not gonna get on the internet and whine about it.
It really is as simple as this:
Charge too much and you will soon be out of business.
Charge too little and you will soon be out of business.
And sometimes no matter what you charge, you will still be out of business.
Businesses KNOW how much they need to charge to ATTEMPT to remain in business. If they don't make enough, that is one less FFL to worry about. And I've never met a millionaire FFL who did it all with $25 transfers.
But if it is such an easy money maker, why aren't you doing it?
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 18:48
Considering how much Little Caesar can make a pizza for, I think any pizzeria charging more than $6 is making much more than 10%, but I'm not gonna get on the internet and whine about it.
It really is as simple as this:
Charge too much and you will soon be out of business.
Charge too little and you will soon be out of business.
And sometimes no matter what you charge, you will still be out of business.
Businesses KNOW how much they need to charge to ATTEMPT to remain in business. If they don't make enough, that is one less FFL to worry about. And I've never met a millionaire FFL who did it all with $25 transfers.
But if it is such an easy money maker, why aren't you doing it?
I wouldn't want to be an FFL and that's why I don't have any desire to go be one.
FWIW I can check reviews of places right on my phone before I go...so if we are in a new to us area and one place has shitty reviews and one has all mostly good then which one am I gonna go to?
Consumers talking and sharing experiences is part of capitalism. If everyone just shut up and never shared experiences then we aren't doing our part to help each other out on the other end of the spectrum. If you were doing all you could as a business to ensure you made your customers happy wouldn't you want them to be sharing their experiences with other people, and that gets you new customers does it not? If one of your competitors is crappy, and you have customers steering people to your shop would that also not make you happy (and make you more money?). So it works both ways. If I were a business, and people were trashing my competitor online I would be overjoyed...
If I am not mistaken because he is in Washington state they require sales tax to be collected on internet sales, even a transfer. I know that store and I personally wouldn't deal with them when I was up there.
A customer bought a gun off of us and sent me the link to the dealer so I could get their info.
That's when I noticed their transfer fee rate. Insult to injury is that he also has to pay 9.5% sales tax! :help:
http://www.discountgunsales.com/ffl-transfers-pg-5.html
C4
My response.....
Are you kidding me? Do you REALLY expect me to feel bad for someone making plenty of money? Even at $15 dollars it would only take 20 transfers to make your huge $300 Lic. fee back. If you arent doing 20 transfers in a year, you're probably charging $40 bucks a transfer lol. Oh no, not the ATF coming to look at your paperwork....some people..
Most of the ones around me charge 25 which I think is fair. One thing you are missing are the people that don't rush down with all of the paperwork they need and pick it up. That or ones they have to deal with multiple times to get the ffl paperwork sent to the correct place. I've seen ffl's mention that people have waited months to pick up stuff ordered.
Also the atf can be a pain in the ass. I know a sot that only ships their product to other ffls for transfer and does no personal transfers. I want to say they had a new agent come on but it might have been just a random check. The atf spent days at their shop going through all of the records. As far as I know they didn't find anything(at least nothing major as nothing came of it) but still a full audit for anyone that does even a fair amount of business can be a bitch. And that time wasted is money out of the ffl's pocket.
If anyone believes their local FFLs charge TOO MUCH then pull your own FFL if you think you can do it better.
Not a dealer, yet I know enough about the less than complicated process to see why most sensible FFL's charge no more than $40. Not much work involved in the transfer and a great opportunity to earn a local's repeat business. Especially if you own a retail outlet.
I wouldn't want to be an FFL and that's why I don't have any desire to go be one.
FWIW I can check reviews of places right on my phone before I go...so if we are in a new to us area and one place has shitty reviews and one has all mostly good then which one am I gonna go to?
Consumers talking and sharing experiences is part of capitalism. If everyone just shut up and never shared experiences then we aren't doing our part to help each other out on the other end of the spectrum. If you were doing all you could as a business to ensure you made your customers happy wouldn't you want them to be sharing their experiences with other people, and that gets you new customers does it not? If one of your competitors is crappy, and you have customers steering people to your shop would that also not make you happy (and make you more money?). So it works both ways. If I were a business, and people were trashing my competitor online I would be overjoyed...
I don't think I objected to anyone sharing feedback. I was just attempting to explain the economic realities on the other side of the counter.
I was also serious with the offer to help somebody get a FFL. It wouldn't be the first time a "reasonable alternative" didn't really exist in a given zip code and people being forced to drive to the next town or county is some areas to find a fair deal. In that instance somebody really could come along and do better.
It wasn't a matter of me saying "Get a FFL or shut the hell up." I'm not here to call names or say "customers suck" simply because somebody says a FFL sucks. That really isn't productive.
About the only thing I can do that is productive is explain how things are quite as simple as you would like to believe they are and offer to help anyone who wants to be a FFL get one.
To say the internet has changed retail business is as much an understatement as saying combustion engine vehicles change road construction. Anyone who thinks they can sustain a firearms business $15 at a time really has no idea what they are talking about, the volume simply doesn't exist anywhere. Anyplace that has anything close to a high demand with have a proportional number of FFLs all competing for that demand.
$50-$75 is SOP for California in addition to sales tax. The tax part is relatively new from like two years ago, but no CA FFL wants the BOE up their ass looking for its revenue.
I think most of the CA FFLs/store people are dicks, personally.
And what's the deal with Bud's gun shop? Are they sketchy or something?
And what's the deal with Bud's gun shop? Are they sketchy or something?
Kinda the Wal Mart of the online gun industry. They are typically bottom dollar (usually only $5-10 above dealer price) and they have a volume business marketing strategy.
However, just like a lot of other internet big names they often advertise things as "in stock" and then you purchase them only to discover they are back ordered. Additionally personalized customer assistance isn't always there so a lot of people complain about that.
Belmont31R
11-21-12, 18:54
I don't think I objected to anyone sharing feedback. I was just attempting to explain the economic realities on the other side of the counter.
I was also serious with the offer to help somebody get a FFL. It wouldn't be the first time a "reasonable alternative" didn't really exist in a given zip code and people being forced to drive to the next town or county is some areas to find a fair deal. In that instance somebody really could come along and do better.
It wasn't a matter of me saying "Get a FFL or shut the hell up." I'm not here to call names or say "customers suck" simply because somebody says a FFL sucks. That really isn't productive.
About the only thing I can do that is productive is explain how things are quite as simple as you would like to believe they are and offer to help anyone who wants to be a FFL get one.
To say the internet has changed retail business is as much an understatement as saying combustion engine vehicles change road construction. Anyone who thinks they can sustain a firearms business $15 at a time really has no idea what they are talking about, the volume simply doesn't exist anywhere. Anyplace that has anything close to a high demand with have a proportional number of FFLs all competing for that demand.
I've talked to my FFL about it after they tore his shop apart in an audit, and THEIR records were so bad they claimed he was MISSING over 20 NFA items. It took him months to get it sorted out, and I don't envy any FFL let alone a C3 dealer. He has told me in the past when we were talking after the ATF came to my house after they started taking his records that if something like that happened again he would close up shop and go start a business in something else. He enjoys selling guns, and wants to do that but it's hard enough to run a business these days, and firearms dealers have a whole heap of extra BS to deal with.
Around here the cheap transfers are at pawn shops, and a I loathe pawn shops so I don't bother with it but the FFL/C3 I mentioned charges $25.
My point here is that I know it's not easy to do it...but you start to get up there in fee's and then it's simply doing it because someone can. On the consumer side at some point you simply have to say enough, and go do business somewhere else. Transfers at a reasonable cost should be extra gravy money. Do 5-10 minutes worth of work for most transfers, and you have 25 bucks to go put in the register.
My point here is that I know it's not easy to do it...but you start to get up there in fee's and then it's simply doing it because someone can. On the consumer side at some point you simply have to say enough, and go do business somewhere else. Transfers at a reasonable cost should be extra gravy money. Do 5-10 minutes worth of work for most transfers, and you have 25 bucks to go put in the register.
And there is the heart of the matter.
If the expectation is to order online at or near a dealer price with only a $25 (or less) transfer fee then NOBODY is going to buy your "in stock" guns or special order firearms at anywhere NEAR a retail price.
This means that $25 is no longer the "gravy" but the limit to the profit potential on ANY firearm you sell. As a result FFLs have a harder time making the 10% "hobby dealers" charged back in the 80s.
If you order a Colt rifle for $970 (dealer price), then a 10% markup would be about $97. The reality is most people think that is a rip off and will order it online for $970 with the expectation of only having to pay a $25 (or less) transfer fee.
So that means if you are a FFL who only sells guns and you don't have a pawn shop, a gun range, sell your own reloaded ammo or have some alternate source of reliable income then your days as a profitable business are probably coming to an end.
Most stores make their profit on accessories and ammo (the way fast food makes money on fries and drinks, no?)
Most stores make their profit on accessories and ammo (the way fast food makes money on fries and drinks, no?)
LOL, ammo and accessories are even worse than guns. You don't need a FFL to receive them.
My cost for ammo plus shipping is nearly identical to the cost of purchasing the same exact ammo at Wal Mart plus sales tax. I'm a FFL and I buy MY AMMO at Wal Mart because it is cheaper and easier.
As for accessories? I can buy almost everything at or near my master dealer price online. Even Amazon is usually only a couple bucks higher than my dealer price.
The basic rules are:
1. If Wal Mart sells it, forget about it. You will never compete with Wal Mart. They sell for the same price FFLs purchase at.
2. If it's something a person can order online, forget about it. Just as nobody can compete with Wal Mart, nobody is gonna be beating out Amazon, CTD or any of the other big names.
Stand alone gun stores SHOULD have disappeared along with bookstores, independent hardware stores and video rental places. The only reason they haven't is because of the regulations associated with firearms.
But the retail model is changing and customers EXPECT to order any firearm at online (wholesale / dealer) price with only a token transaction fee. This is much more prevalent than 25 years ago when customers attempted to do the same by ordering out of Shotgun News and having a hobby dealer do the transfer for 10%.
FFLs believe they can sustain a transfer only business, but the reality is the volume doesn't exists and that is why there is a constant crop of FFLs going out of business and not renewing after the first three years.
There is also not enough demand for a large centralized "transfer only" business model based upon Wal Mart. The average population simply doesn't buy guns in the same volume as they do the other crap in Wal Mart which they buy every week. This is why Wal Mart has a relatively small firearms department. If demand was bigger, Wal Mart would cater to it.
The only businesses that can do $15 transfers and stay in business are things like pawn shops where they are making their money on other sales and use "transfers" as a form of advertising to get people into the shop.
It will be interesting to see where the retail gun business actually goes in the next 10 years. I've seen some dramatic changes in the last 10.
There goes my idea about an X-fer only FFL.
I figured that being in CA, I could only do that and pocket side cash. But the truth I don't actually know enough about being an FFL. From the sound of it, it probably isn't worth it.
And I'm so dumb for my previous post. I should have thought before posted. Shit, I mean, I always buy my accessories and ammo online anyway (save for stuff I need the same day/short notice).
I wonder how FFLs manage to stay in business at all.
There goes my idea about an X-fer only FFL.
I figured that being in CA, I could only do that and pocket side cash. But the truth I don't actually know enough about being an FFL. From the sound of it, it probably isn't worth it.
And I'm so dumb for my previous post. I should have thought before posted. Shit, I mean, I always buy my accessories and ammo online anyway (save for stuff I need the same day/short notice).
I wonder how FFLs manage to stay in business at all.
Given the extensive regulation in CA if you were able to get a FFL you might do ok as it sounds like there may not be enough FFLs to satisfy demand. But you may discover all the related operating costs are prohibitive.
For a FFL to make it these days, they generally need to do something that all the other FFLs really aren't doing and have a specialty business plan. Because if you simply offer the same stuff that 75% of every other FFL in your zip code is doing you are going to have a hard time staying in business.
As others have pointed out the sale tax is state law:
http://dor.wa.gov/content/getaformorpublication/publicationbysubject/taxtopics/firearmtransfers.aspx
As for Discount Guns, their prices (including transfers) are among the worst you'll find in this area. The best price for transfers that I've seen in the Seattle area is lowpriceguns.com which is in Bellevue. I've used them and I think it was $35 for the transfer.
I wonder how FFLs manage to stay in business at all.
Many don't. I honestly don't know how the small dealers (under $1 Million a year in gross sales) make it.
The firearms industry is really about who you know. The bulk of my best contacts have come through the training world (one more reason to go to shooting schools). ;) Without these contacts, I would still be running G&R as a part time business.
As Stery stated, even with the best accounts, there are tons of people selling gear at 5% over their cost. So the dealer needs to be a SME with the products they stock so that they can give quality advice to their customers. Most people WILL PAY more for gear and guns if the dealer is knowledgeable.
C4
For you dealers in this thread. How long does it take to do a transfer?15 minutes, 1/2 hr?
For you dealers in this thread. How long does it take to do a transfer?15 minutes, 1/2 hr?
1. Customer makes contact with you about doing a transfer (in person, phone or e-mail).
2. You send your FFL to the other FFL.
3. Gun arrives and you log it into your book.
4. You contact the customer and schedule a time for them to come in to do the transfer.
5. Customer fills out 4473 and takes possession.
6. Log gun out of your book.
How long? Well as you can see from the above, it can be 10 minutes or an hour (depending on the customer and how much time they require).
C4
xfer fees were higher back east, close to $60-70. out west here it's around $40 at the local gs I choose to support.
the ones back east would actively desire to not have to deal with transfers at all as they would prefer you buy from their inventory. So, given that attitude, the xfer price makes sense. if they don't care if you don't use them for the transfer, since you aren't buying the item from them, what more can you do.
Sounds like a tough business. Dont know why there are any dealers at all!!!
Do I feel "sorry" for FFL dealers? No. You made a decision to get into a certain type of business. If you dont like making some phone calls and doing paperwork, I dont know what to tell you. Dont like it? Get out of it i guess.
Just dont complain that you dont have any business when you're screwing people with $50 transfer fees.
I don't mind buying at slightly higher than internet prices from a good dealer. Good dealer being defined as someone who is somewhat knowledgable of guns (no, "people die from the sound of racking a 12 gauge" silliness) and are easy to work with. Most of those types don't have guns I want in stock and the guns I often want are fairly expensive which makes it difficult to have that type of stock on hand...
At one point when I was in high school the home economics teacher had an FFL - no transfer fees from her! Bad thing was UPS delivered a Franchi LAW 12 to her classroom once!
My last dealer in Delaware initially charged me $20 a transfer and eventually quit charging me. He was a kitchen dealer who did it as a side gig for years.
New dealer charges $25 per gun and a $2 NCIS call fee. That drops to $10 and $2 if you join the club for a year at $60/year....
Spooky
There goes my idea about an X-fer only FFL.
I figured that being in CA, I could only do that and pocket side cash. But the truth I don't actually know enough about being an FFL. From the sound of it, it probably isn't worth it.
And I'm so dumb for my previous post. I should have thought before posted. Shit, I mean, I always buy my accessories and ammo online anyway (save for stuff I need the same day/short notice).
I wonder how FFLs manage to stay in business at all.
I agree with Grant in regards to a retail setting...not enough margins and overhead would swallow you if not doing massive volume. Besides, I worked retail with my Dad and Grandad for ten years and it's like having another marriage!!
I just found a niche that worked for me and enjoy being an ffl and get along great with all the ATF agents I am dealing with...I do some 4473 transfers but mostly consignments and hard to find items for my customers. Most of my transfers are dealer to dealer and will send folks to Grant / Internet and my local class iii buddy for m4 type stuff. Almost all my customers are friends as well...I have been blessed to fondle some really cool pre-64's, antique English doubles, Colt SAA, upper end sporting clay rigs, etc. and it's a labor of love. I tie very little capital into inventory but will buy low and sell high if the deal falls in my lap.
I won't get rich doing this and it's obviously not my main gig but make enough to keep at it and the extra income helps. i was told by several folks when I was going after my ffl that ATF doesn't like lower volume dealers, but have found this to be 100% opposite when my audits come around. It's been a positive experience since I started several years ago. I don't keep inventory/consignments for very long and the fact I am mostly dealer to dealer with 4473's at a minimum compared to retail makes it easy on all of us.
Getting the conditional use permit was more hassle than receiving my ffl....then again, I had an ATF / hunting buddy help guide me.
I charge $25 for transfers but can see why retail would be more...I'm friends with other local dealers who own shops and do some biz with them as well. Most said they wished no new gun sales over the net for transfers would come through and are in the $40+ range.
For you dealers in this thread. How long does it take to do a transfer?15 minutes, 1/2 hr?
Irrelevant. If I'm not making enough money to have a self sustaining business I won't be doing transfers at all the next month.
IF the volume existed transfers would be $3 because that is what dealers would charge to be competitive. But that volume doesn't exist.
The amount of time required to complete a transaction is as unrelated as the amount of time it takes to complete a tax return. The time is completely unrelated to how much money you have for your efforts.
Sounds like a tough business. Dont know why there are any dealers at all!!!
For myself, it's what I know. Doing something you know is no guarantee of easy money. It only means you are doing something you know.
If I had another opportunity available to me where I could make significantly more money, I'd probably do that instead. But not everyone has such options, at least I was doing pretty good until the economy tanked.
Do I feel "sorry" for FFL dealers? No. You made a decision to get into a certain type of business. If you dont like making some phone calls and doing paperwork, I dont know what to tell you. Dont like it? Get out of it i guess.
Yep, just like the military, police officers, firemen and countless other occupations that are usually associated with low wages we have made our decision. And self employed person is at tremendous risk, there is no paycheck and it can all end tomorrow.
I personally built my business up from NOTHING. I didn't get any grants, handouts or qualify for a loan. I worked and saved up the money to get started and tried my luck. Within a few years things were actually going pretty good after some trial and error and a few good decisions.
The economy has pretty much tanked me, but not much I can do about that. If customers don't have money, I can't really fix that.
Just dont complain that you dont have any business when you're screwing people with $50 transfer fees.
Lots of people seem to want to call "profit" a "transfer."
There are people that fully expect to order a rifle that has a dealer price of $950 and a MSRP of $1400 and only pay $975 out the door.
The reality is most dealers charge what is necessary to have a profitable business. If you don't make enough, you won't be in business next month. If you charge too much, you won't have any customers and won't be in business next month.
Every business charges what is necessary to sustain a profitable business.
Actually, it was a friendly question to get a feel for what kind of time it takes to do a transfer. I figured that was relevant. I happen to own a small business as an independent hardware and building material retailer, with tool and equipment rental. I also contract out machinery with an operator and do trucking on the side. Everything I do has a timed based cost factor. If I need to do a repair I figure my time cost. If I run a piece of machinery or a truck, time is figured in.
Shop time for repairs is $80/hr. Trucking and machinery with an operator is between $100 and $125. A stop, when hauling freight, to pick up someone else's freight is $25 and a per pound charge since most stops are 15 minutes or less.
If I was doing transfers on goods that were not purchased from me, and the time involved averaged 1/2 hours, I would charge $50.
The last few firearms I have purchased have taken a minimum of 20 minutes to get everything squared away. I know that the FFL has time involved in receiving and logging a transfer and that has to add at least ten minutes.
I never try and cheap out a guy trying to make a living because I am in the same boat. I have never considered a $50 transfer fee to be excessive. My current dealer doesn't charge that much, but I'd pay it willingly.
I think you and I have a lot more in common than you think and typing doesn't convey the tone I meant to present my question. I wish you the best and hope things turn around for you.
My FFL has never charged me a transfer fee, but the only things I've ever transferred have been stripped receivers. I buy all of my actual firearms from him. For non-customers, he charges somewhere between $25 and $35.
I'm in favor of FFLs being able to charge whatever the market will bear.
the place I get my transfers cost 35 I am happy with that, it does take maybe 30 minutes if busy for paperwork and the Call .but they are nice never have given me dirty "you don't need that" looks and they have a indoor shooting range and overhead so I get that .I miss the days of it being lower but it is what it is :dirol:
The_War_Wagon
11-23-12, 07:40
There are a couple of private FFL's still in the Pittsburgh area, where you can do a $20-$25 transfer. One local shop charges $40 - Gander Mountain charges $75. :eek: I'm sure I could find some higher priced ones if I looked for 'em.
We've got one dealer who is $25 no matter how many you buy, no fee if bought from him directly, and he does his best to match the internet.
Then we have the other who charges $40 per gun but is free if you buy from him. The last time I was in he had stripped Charles Daly lowers for $200. When I asked him if he would at least come down to full retail he gave me a bunch of shit about how he couldn't sell it that cheap.
Guess who I deal with?
I honestly believe a transfer fee over $15 is robbery. Although I have been told by an FFL that........(direct quote)
"Why do you say this? Are you an FFL? Did you have to go through the detailed paperwork to become an FFL? Do you get suprise inspections from the ATF knocking on your door to come in and look at your books anytime? Do you have to take the time to log in each firearm and make sure your paperwork is 100% correct? If any of these answers are No, then WTF!? It costs $300 to be a type 1 FFL, plus all the time it takes to do the transfer and do your paperwork. If someone is charging less than $20, then they are doing it for a friend or are too cheap. Most charge $20 to $30. If this is too expensive for you, then go get your own FFL."
My response.....
Are you kidding me? Do you REALLY expect me to feel bad for someone making plenty of money? Even at $15 dollars it would only take 20 transfers to make your huge $300 Lic. fee back. If you arent doing 20 transfers in a year, you're probably charging $40 bucks a transfer lol. Oh no, not the ATF coming to look at your paperwork....some people..
I imagine part of high fees is the dealer wants to make money selling you guns.
Raven Armament
11-24-12, 09:58
The basic rules are:
1. If Wal Mart sells it, forget about it. You will never compete with Wal Mart. They sell for the same price FFLs purchase at.
2. If it's something a person can order online, forget about it. Just as nobody can compete with Wal Mart, nobody is gonna be beating out Amazon, CTD or any of the other big names.
Yup. People try to talk me into opening a retail gunshop and I tell them it's not worth it based on the two above. I just continue to stay small and focus on what the big name guys can't or won't do.
There goes my idea about an X-fer only FFL.
I figured that being in CA, I could only do that and pocket side cash. But the truth I don't actually know enough about being an FFL. From the sound of it, it probably isn't worth it.
Being a transfer only FFL in CA is worth it, but only in a part time model, ie don't quit your day job. Use that to provide better service at a competitive price and grow organically. Firm, fair, and friendly. Biggest issue of getting your FFL is complying with zoning and local permits if any are needed.
Many don't. I honestly don't know how the small dealers (under $1 Million a year in gross sales) make it.
My guess is they have a spouse with a great salary. The local full service gunshop in the county here also sells fishing stuff, archery, bait, has an OK gunsmith, and your general guns/gear/ammo selection. Does pretty well for himself, lives off his pension from being a police officer, 3 of his 4 kids work there and get a nice salary. His biggest gun stuff is handguns, because Walmart and Dunham's doesn't deal in those. He's got to be around the million mark, but he started in the back of his wife's second hand store with a 6 foot counter and 8 guns.
So the dealer needs to be a SME with the products they stock so that they can give quality advice to their customers. Most people WILL PAY more for gear and guns if the dealer is knowledgeable.
That's one of the big keys in this business. Know what you're selling.
For you dealers in this thread. How long does it take to do a transfer?15 minutes, 1/2 hr?
Depends on the customer and the details. Average maybe 15 minutes on a simple Title I. Got a good friend that is in and out of here in less than 5 minutes with the carry permit exemption for NICS.
The bulk of my business is "gunsmithing" ARs and doing transfers. I charge $20 for Title I, $50 for Title II, and $50/hr shop rate half hour minimum for gunsmithing. None of the other gunsmiths around here work on ARs so that's my little niche here. I maintain a full time job to provide for my family and do the FFL business on the side trying to grow it full time some day.
Discount Guns doesn't really have anything at a discount. While in the Everett area, I did not buy anything from them as they were more expensive than anyone although I'd stop in once in awhile to see what they had. When shopping for a polymer 9mm, DG was one place I stopped in to compare the Glock, M&P and PPQ.
I don't like paying the transfer fees and taxes charged by Washington FFLs but it was the price of doing business. It was cheaper to pay $100 for a lower bought online from PSA ($50 + $45 transfer fee + Washington tax) than it was to pay $125 for a RRA or Bushmaster lower directly from the local retailers. No one carried the FAL receivers I wanted. But when Randy at Lynnwood Guns showed me the PPQ he had in stock, it was cheaper and faster to buy it there than if I'd found one on Gunbroker. Plus Randy always gave me good customer service.
Now I'm in Utah and transfer fees are half. There's a new shop in Spanish Fork that charges $20 for a transfer. Whether it's low or high for Utah doesn't matter, I think it's more than fair and I like dealing with the guy.
But Discount Guns never had anything I wanted at a good price. They carry a few AR parts, but I usually ended up driving down south to Rainier Arms for parts & accessories and Surplus Ammo & Arms for ammo and magazines
Being a transfer only FFL in CA is worth it, but only in a part time model, ie don't quit your day job. Use that to provide better service at a competitive price and grow organically. Firm, fair, and friendly. Biggest issue of getting your FFL is complying with zoning and local permits if any are needed.
That was my idea, just as a side thing. I don't think I'm ready at this moment to go down that road though, so it may be too soon.
I do notice that the "stable"FFLs around here try to offer something different. The classic CA example is black rifle centered stores (which you didn't see much of before), but I think soon the amount of BR/tactical FFLs will reach equilibrium.
Once people found a way to make 'em CA legal, they exponentially caught on.
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