View Full Version : Live action in Gaza/Israel...
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 19:05
Thought there would be a thread on this by now...but maybe missed it.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gaza-twin-camz/theater
Large version of one of the above streams: http://player.streamworksint.com/videohub/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/teleport4
Another case of the Muslim's attacking Israel with rockets fired out of Gaza, the Izzie's responding back, and the leftists of the world claim Israel are the bad guys.
Also of note that this time around they are firing shit out of Gaza which isn't your home made stuff, and hitting up into Tel Aviv and Jerusalem not just along the border with cruder less effective munitions. Getting these rockets from somewhere else...
I'll be cheering Israel on with this one, and the US needs to stand with them so they can defend themselves. The history of this area goes back very far, and is quite interesting.
I personally hope Israel goes in and stomps some ass into the ground.
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lethal dose
11-20-12, 19:47
I think Israel would look better if it were bigger. ;)
Each day when I wake up I check the news hoping to see if Tehran is on fire. So far no luck, but I think that one day soon...
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-12, 20:39
They are both equally guilty to me, and are both just as corrupt as nations, though in different ways. Both have plenty of civilians that don't give a damn and just want peace, but the governments see otherwise, on both sides.
I sympathize to neither nation. I feel sympathy for the people in both nations, however.
(Ready to catch flak....)
They are both equally guilty to me, and are both just as corrupt as nations, though in different ways. Both have plenty of civilians that don't give a damn and just want peace, but the governments see otherwise, on both sides.
I sympathize to neither nation. I feel sympathy for the people in both nations, however.
(Ready to catch flak....)
What nations?
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-12, 20:48
What nations?
The State of Israel and the "State" of Palestine. The "territory" of Palestine.. the proclaimed area of who Palestinians claim is theirs.
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 21:02
The State of Israel and the "State" of Palestine. The "territory" of Palestine.. the proclaimed area of who Palestinians claim is theirs.
Palestine is not a state nor a nation.
The Arab-Israeli / Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the single issue or topic that I know the most about, including firearms and long-range shooting. If you stacked the books that I've read on Israel / Palestine, they'd be taller than most people. I'm not saying that to brag, but to preface and qualify a recommendation, which is this:
If you care about this issue and want to arm yourself with the basic level of information necessary to voice an intelligent opinion on this extremely complicated topic (if you think there's an easy answer, or a clear right and wrong, you are mistaken), you should read following 4 titles. Combined, they are IMO the best way to get a full picture of the conflict with a minimum of time invested. You can read each of these books in a weekend, and in less than a month, know more about the conflict than 99% of the world. You might be surprised how much of what you thought was true gets overturned.
A brilliantly insightful primer to get your mind right. Read this one FIRST:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Cure-Fanatic-Amos-Oz/dp/0691148635/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353467123&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=amas+oz+how+to+cure+a+fanatic
Dispassionate, factual overview of the conflict. Read this one SECOND:
http://www.amazon.com/History-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-6th/dp/0205753388/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353467087&sr=1-1&keywords=bickerton+and+klausner
The Palestinian Case:
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Cage-Palestinian-Struggle-Statehood/dp/B003GAN1PC
The Israeli Case:
http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Betrayed-Efraim-Karsh/dp/0300172346/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353467066&sr=1-1&keywords=palestine+betrayed
If you have any interest in the Middle East at all, I can't recommend following the outline I just gave highly enough.
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-12, 21:08
Palestine is not a state nor a nation.
It is certainly a nation. Not a state, a nation. (In that they share common history, language, religion.. etc)
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-12, 21:10
If you have any interest in the Middle East at all, I can't recommend following the outline I just gave highly enough.
Thanks for the reading list, a0cake.
It is certainly a nation. Not a state, a nation.
This is actually correct, in rigid political-science jargon. Most people don't understand that nationhood doesn't entail statehood, nor vice-versa. Palestine certainly is a nation, but not a state.
I honestly just asked the question rhetorically, to prompt the distinction to be brought out.
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 21:18
It is certainly a nation. Not a state, a nation.
Says who?
They are not recognized by the UN or the US as a nation.
If you think they are a nation...then why can't firing military munitions into a 'neighboring' nation not be viewed as an act of war, and Israel pound the shit out of them just as we have done to other nations who attacked us?
If you're claiming some historical nation state the old 'Palaestinia' borders went outside of Israel and down into modern Egypt and up into modern Syria. Why aren't the Palestinians fighting those nations to 'get their land back'? Exactly how far back should a group of people be able to go to claim they are a nation?
Would you be ok with indian tribes in the US fighting for their land back? Almost all of North America was controlled by 'indian nations' when white people left. Should the US government cede control of the US territory back to these 'indian nations' based on some historical land control?
I'm just trying to get where you think the nation of Palestine exists today, and what you think their borders should be, and why they aren't recognized by either the UN or US nor any other nation.
This is really trivial to the subject at hand, but just for clarification and informational purposes, this is how the terms "nation" and "state" are used by political-scientists when doing analysis:
Though the terms “nation” and “state” seem to imply the same meaning, and in fact are commonly used interchangeably in our discourse, there actually are important differences between them. The idea of “nation” refers primarily to a shared sense of identity among a multiplicity of individuals, while a “state” is a more concrete and tangible entity that exists and can be recognized objectively as it exerts political power both internally and externally. Put simply, a nation is a cultural phenomenon and a state is a political mechanism with sovereign control over a geographical location.
While the two often overlap, it's important to understand that one doesn't necessarily follow from the other. Not all nations manifest into states, and not all states govern a population that homogeneously identifies with a single, cohesive, cultural element such as a shared language or religion. To the extent that a state's borders and internal national identities diverge, the two exist and function independently. When they converge, there is what's called a "Nation-State," which obviously means something different than either "Nation" or "State" independently.
Palestine is a Nation without a State. That's not a normative claim (doesn't deal with whether it should or shouldn't have a state), but merely a factual description of its condition.
If you care about this issue and want to arm yourself with the basic level of information necessary to voice an intelligent opinion on this interesting topic (if you think there's an easy answer, or a clear right and wrong, fortunately you aren't mistaken), you should simply take a few minutes to watch the Arafat funeral and then the Reagan funeral. Combined IMO they are the best way to get a full picture of the conflict with a minimum of effort. You can watch a clip of both in your spare time, and in just a few minutes and know more about the conflict than 99% of the world. You might be surprised how much of what you thought was true was indeed just that.
Needed a touch up.
Needed a touch up.
I'm not pro-Palestinian by any stretch, and am pro-Israeli on the vast majority of issues, but you think this is an easy issue, do you?
I'm not doing anything for the next hour -- how about a video debate where I play devil's advocate and argue the Palestinian case while you argue the Israeli case. Let's see how easy and cut and dried you still think it is after you get routed. Deal? If not, then stop being such a dismissive douchebag.
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 21:39
I get that...but thats now how most people view things, and given the area I don't think theres really a 'Palestinian Nation'. I assumed people would be bringing up some 1000+ year old 'nation' that used to exist not some strict scientific defintion that no one mean's when they talk about this sort of thing.
To me it's like saying there's a African American Nation or Mexican Nation within the US or even the indians we put on reservations. I think it's a bit much to give them the 'nation' title because that gives them some form of legitimacy to what they are doing and divies up the state in 'sections' gives unwarranted legitimacy to one group who doesn't deserve it. Prior to much of the current conflicts there were quite a lot of Arabs who lived within Israel, and during various wars left Israel for whatever reason. Now they crammed themselves into Gaza or became refugees in another state like Syria or Egypt. Suddenly they are a 'nation' to some people. Doesn't jive with me.
montanadave
11-20-12, 21:48
I don't claim to have any great understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but I spent some time in Israel a while back and most of the folks I met, both sides, were sick of all this shit and just wanted to go to work, go to temple/mosque/church, send their kids off to school, hang out with family and friends ... and not constantly wonder if somebody was getting ready to blow their shit up.
Extremists on both sides live to perpetuate this conflict ... it's their raison d'etre, and they really don't give a shit about who gets hurt, either on their side or the other, as long as they get to drive the bus.
It's tragic.
And, as someone who has watched the United States, our domestic politics, our foreign policy, our resources of both blood and treasure pulled into and squandered trying to negotiate, bribe, or coerce a settlement between factions who don't have any interest in reaching an agreement ... I am sick of the whole ****in' mess.
AA sponsors will tell a sponsee that the day they feel like they're spending more time on that person's recovery than the sponsee is, it's game over. That's where I am with the Israelis and the Palestinians. Lose our number. Don't worry. When you actually get tired of killing your own children and want to work out a real peace deal, we'll get back in the game.
Belmont31R
11-20-12, 22:02
Extremists on both sides live to perpetuate this conflict ... it's their raison d'etre, and they really don't give a shit about who gets hurt, either on their side or the other, as long as they get to drive the bus.
It's tragic.
To some degree, maybe, but Israel has been quite a bit more willing to work on things, and if you look at the last 60 years has put up with more shit than any other country on earth. I don't blame them one bit for being a bit less willing to go to the table these days as they might have once been.
I don't really see a solution here either, but Ill support Israel to keep themselves from getting rocketed on a daily basis no matter what the current political situation is given the current borders, and I certainly don't see the Arabs over there as victims like a lot of people seem to think they are.
Each day when I wake up I check the news hoping to see if Tehran is on fire. So far no luck, but I think that one day soon...
NYC will be on fire before Tehran.
The dark side says **** them, they shall reap what they sow.
It's 6:30 AM in Gaza. This is about the time the rockets and Israeli retaliation usually start. It's a good time to check the live-streams for anyone interested.
I called it. Impacts on the RT camera just now.
Each day when I wake up I check the news hoping to see if Tehran is on fire. So far no luck, but I think that one day soon...
You want to pay $15 for a gallon of 87? You want a depression and world war 3? Brilliant
This is one of those PERFECT OPPORTUNITIES for us to just step back and let two countries resolve their differences once and for all in a manner of their choosing. People seem to have forgotten the results of having worked it out in the 1960s and want to revisit the issue.
And as long as we continue to interfere it will go on forever without any meaningful resolution. To insure that happens Hillary Clinton has just arrived.
It is absolutely deplorable that innocent people on both sides (especially children) who are simply trying to go about their lives and provide for families have been injured or killed. Sadly they live in a part of the world where the fanatics on both sides have enough power to make this crap part of daily life.
And I think the endless game of senseless attacks, negotiation and cease fires followed by another cycle of senseless attacks, negotiation and cease fires probably kills more innocent people than if they'd just have it out once and for all in a decisive manner.
Certainly neither party is going to accept responsibility and they are both willing to go back to pre history to declare that the other side started it.
You want to pay $15 for a gallon of 87? You want a depression and world war 3? Brilliant
If you're asking whether or not I'd be willing to make temporary sacrifices to have Iran removed from the threat factor, sure I would. Isn't going to get better on it's own, is it? Think that we allow the muslims to kill all the Israelis (such a noble stance) that they wouldn't be after us next?
Or maybe you'd suggest another 10 years of unpersuasive sanctions and appeasement. Nah, let's make it 20 years and just hope for the best.
If you're asking whether or not I'd be willing to make temporary sacrifices to have Iran removed from the threat factor, sure I would. Isn't going to get better on it's own, is it? Think that we allow the muslims to kill all the Israelis (such a noble stance) that they wouldn't be after us next?
Or maybe you'd suggest another 10 years of unpersuasive sanctions and appeasement. Nah, let's make it 20 years and just hope for the best.
The Israelis have 300+ nuclear weapons and everyone on earth knows it. Who would be insane enough to go after Israel knowing they could be obliterated? That's a bit like poking a rattle snake with your naked boner.
Doc Safari
11-21-12, 09:35
I think Israel would look better if it were bigger. ;)
Amen.
If those goat-smelling terrorist ragheads want to meet Allah so badly, I say give 'em all explosive invitations!
Doc Safari
11-21-12, 09:36
That's a bit like poking a rattle snake with your naked boner.
Thanks for that image, SMETNA. I may have to watch lesbian porn to get that out of my head.
:D
Doc Safari
11-21-12, 09:38
If you're asking whether or not I'd be willing to make temporary sacrifices to have Iran removed from the threat factor, sure I would. Isn't going to get better on it's own, is it? Think that we allow the muslims to kill all the Israelis (such a noble stance) that they wouldn't be after us next?
Or maybe you'd suggest another 10 years of unpersuasive sanctions and appeasement. Nah, let's make it 20 years and just hope for the best.
Any second now Mjolnr and Voodoo6Actual will chime in that we need to look at Iran's perspective to get the truth...
:jester:
Mauser KAR98K
11-21-12, 10:31
Good bye cease-fire. Hamas is celebrating a bus bombing in Tel-Aviv, though they are not claiming responsibility.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/21/us-israel-telaviv-bus-explosion-idUSBRE8AK0HS20121121
Straight from Drudge.
Belmont31R
11-21-12, 11:45
CNN announced a cease fire to begin at 2PM ET.
I wouldn't think Israel would agree to that given the bus bombing in Tel Aviv this morning. Speaking of which another example in the terrorist nature of Hamas, and yet they accuse the Israelis of targeting civilians...:rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
11-21-12, 15:37
That's a bit like poking a rattle snake with your naked boner.
My new sig.
The Israelis have 300+ nuclear weapons and everyone on earth knows it. Who would be insane enough to go after Israel knowing they could be obliterated? That's a bit like poking a rattle snake with your naked boner.
If anyone has an established record of incomprehensible actions and insane ideas it would be Iran. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past them.
CNN announced a cease fire to begin at 2PM ET.
I wouldn't think Israel would agree to that given the bus bombing in Tel Aviv this morning. Speaking of which another example in the terrorist nature of Hamas, and yet they accuse the Israelis of targeting civilians...:rolleyes:
And the cycle continues.
Religious fanaticism is not deterred and innocents on both sides suffer the fallout. I wouldn't live in the Middle East if everything was free of charge and I was given a gold plated Uzi and AK.
Magic_Salad0892
11-21-12, 19:10
And the cycle continues.
Religious fanaticism is not deterred and innocents on both sides suffer the fallout. I wouldn't live in the Middle East if everything was free of charge and I was given a gold plated Uzi and AK.
That's because you already own the non Gold plated versions.
Extremists on both sides live to perpetuate this conflict ... it's their raison d'etre, and they really don't give a shit about who gets hurt, either on their side or the other, as long as they get to drive the bus.
That's challenging when one side purposefully targets said buses and is okay with killing both Arab and Jews simply for being Israelis. That sort of violence is race and religious agnostic. They murder because they're murderers. They routinely refuse peace settlements that give them practically everything they want, so it stands obvious that they must enjoy and prefer murder.
There's no denying the violence that's part-and-parcel of Islam, but they aren't killing Israelis simply for being Jews, but for being Israelis. That sort of activity makes it a lot more clear-cut which side is the perpetrator, and that beneath the veil of religio-centric violence ("push the Jews into the sea, rah-rah"), the truth is they are just happy to kill people period, simply for being in a certain location.
Belmont31R
11-21-12, 21:30
And the cycle continues.
Religious fanaticism is not deterred and innocents on both sides suffer the fallout. I wouldn't live in the Middle East if everything was free of charge and I was given a gold plated Uzi and AK.
What cycle? Let me know when Israel starts targeting a bus full of muslims.
If anyone has an established record of incomprehensible actions and insane ideas it would be Iran. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past them.
I'm not saying they present no threat to Israel. They most certainly do. I just believe that M.A.D. has kept the worlds' nuclear militaries from attacking one another.
But then again, we're talking about people who use suicide attacks and martyr themselves, sometimes in teams.
What cycle? Let me know when Israel starts targeting a bus full of muslims.
The cycle I mentioned earlier and quoted below. And Israel has certainly engaged in terrorists activity in the past. Ben Stern Gang and the Irgun helped pioneer modern terrorism.
The problem these days is Israeli surgical strikes against Hamas, also terrorist organization, aren't surgical enough to not kill innocent bystanders. Certainly the Israelis are "more surgical" than the Muslim terrorists attacks, but they aren't even trying. In fact they are specifically targeting innocents.
This is one of those PERFECT OPPORTUNITIES for us to just step back and let two countries resolve their differences once and for all in a manner of their choosing. People seem to have forgotten the results of having worked it out in the 1960s and want to revisit the issue.
And as long as we continue to interfere it will go on forever without any meaningful resolution. To insure that happens Hillary Clinton has just arrived.
It is absolutely deplorable that innocent people on both sides (especially children) who are simply trying to go about their lives and provide for families have been injured or killed. Sadly they live in a part of the world where the fanatics on both sides have enough power to make this crap part of daily life.
And I think the endless game of senseless attacks, negotiation and cease fires followed by another cycle of senseless attacks, negotiation and cease fires probably kills more innocent people than if they'd just have it out once and for all in a decisive manner.
Certainly neither party is going to accept responsibility and they are both willing to go back to pre history to declare that the other side started it."
I'm not saying they present no threat to Israel. They most certainly do. I just believe that M.A.D. has kept the worlds' nuclear militaries from attacking one another.
But then again, we're talking about people who use suicide attacks and martyr themselves, sometimes in teams.
M.A.D. isn't as effective on people who WANT to die for Allah. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Iran. I think they would first strike at the first opportunity. The Russians are like Switzerland in comparison.
M.A.D. isn't as effective on people who WANT to die for Allah. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past Iran. I think they would first strike at the first opportunity. The Russians are like Switzerland in comparison.
Do you think we could stop them from sabotaging the straight of Hormuz and/or blowing the hell out of our bases in the region?
Iran is still acting with rational self-interest -- not to be confused with the colloquial definition of "rational." Even rogue states running amok are rational insofar as they believe they're acting with the goal of personal benefit. Defiant as Iran has been in engaging in brinkmanship, they have not yet acted in such a way that "situational input X" doesn't produce "state action Y" in a way that is understandable, interpretable, and logical in terms of Iran's national goals, even if such an action carries high risk.
It is a tough call, but I believe there is still room for diplomacy so long as it seems that Iran is running some sort of coherent OODA loop in its decision making process. You can be sure that the question of Iranian rationality is salient at national decision making levels; they have more information than any of us.
they (the US Gov) have more information than any of us.
But isn't that always the easiest BS cop-out?
"Gee wiz, the gov seems to be making a huge mistake and acting foolishly at best, malevolently at worst. BUT I don't have access to their intel, so what do I know?"
I will always find that distasteful
But isn't that always the easiest BS cop-out?
"Gee wiz, the gov seems to be making a huge mistake and acting foolishly at best, malevolently at worst. BUT I don't have access to their intel, so what do I know?"
I will always find that distasteful
I was simply using it as a humble admission that I just don't know what I don't know, and when it comes to determining whether a state is acting rationally or not, non-public information is especially crucial. It's not a cop-out of anything; it's just a fact of life. Intellectually copping-out of the Mideast is the exact opposite of what will continue to be my life's work. I'll also continue to criticize government actions when I believe they're foolish. It doesn't change the undeniable fact that without certain information I can't presume to be making the best judgments. It's not like I'm not engaging with the issues because of that -- not engaging is precisely not what I'm doing.
Do you think we could stop them from sabotaging the straight of Hormuz and/or blowing the hell out of our bases in the region?
I'm assuming we are still having the "nuclear Iran" conversation.
I don't think they'd do anything to the Straight of Hormuz because they'd essentially be nuking themselves and gaining nothing. They rely on the Straight for their oil exports as well. If anything they'd use the threat of nuclear force to own the Straight and make Iraq and Saudi pay tolls for it's usage.
If Iran became a nuclear power I think the targets "in order" would be:
1. Israel - First on the hit parade as they are the traditional "enemy of Islam" and such a strike would unite much of the Middle East in support of Iran.
2. Sunni Muslim states - Iran would especially concentrate on Sunni states that are Western friendly or host US forces. This would of course force Sunni states such as Saudi Arabia to demand a nuclear capacity as a deterrence resulting in a potential flashpoint that would make India / Pakistan look like a friendly game of pinochle.
montanadave
11-22-12, 08:53
But isn't that always the easiest BS cop-out?
"Gee wiz, the gov seems to be making a huge mistake and acting foolishly at best, malevolently at worst. BUT I don't have access to their intel, so what do I know?"
I will always find that distasteful
It's tiresome, but there does seem to be some validity to the premise.
Witness the rather predictable "about faces" we see when a presidential candidate becomes a president-elect. They have that first "come to Jesus" meeting with top security and defense officials, get a peek at all the intel that rarely sees the light of day, and walk out of the room whistling a different tune.
It's tiresome, but there does seem to be some validity to the premise.
Witness the rather predictable "about faces" we see when a presidential candidate becomes a president-elect. They have that first "come to Jesus" meeting with top security and defense officials, get a peek at all the intel that rarely sees the light of day, and walk out of the room whistling a different tune.
Or possibly just shown how the bills are paid and who pays them.
I could accept a certain amount of "we don't know what the government knows" but then I see them engage in one debacle after another that was later shown to have occurred due to government incompetence.
When we look at the 1983 Russian Nuclear / Able Archer scare the disclosed amount of just how much either government DIDN'T know is absolutely terrifying.
montanadave
11-22-12, 14:43
Or possibly just shown how the bills are paid and who pays them.
No doubt.
And, sadly, that info probably proves more influential than the defense/security intel.
No doubt.
And, sadly, that info probably proves more influential than the defense/security intel.
Politics becomes a LOT easier to understand when you accept that it is about power and money. Every single person involved in politics, regardless of any public service talk, is seeking power and money. Anyone who isn't will quickly be displaced by others who are.
And there is very little money to be made with liberty and freedom. Money is made with regulation and control.
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