View Full Version : Timney is in...
Received my Timney Skeletonized 4# SS Trigger last week and did the install. It was not quite a drop-in install. The assembly wasn't seating properly because it was touching the inner part of the housing, so I had to shave a little metal off the trigger body where it was contacting inner front trigger housing.. The installation only took about 20 minutes. I took my time and extra care not to file too much.
The trigger pull is freakin amazing! No Creep, ...No Over Travel. The Timney breaks like glass. The difference between the factory trigger and the Timney is HUGE.
I plan to take her out to the range next week to check for safe functionality. I don't foresee any problems.
Perhaps it's time to get me that Millett TRS-1 to really test accuracy on my 15T.
Anyway, hadn't had the time to post a photo till now........
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/15TwithTimneyclose-up35.jpg
Good luck hope it last longer than mine did
about 700 hard rounds when it wouldnt reset.......
Good luck hope it last longer than mine did
about 700 hard rounds when it wouldnt reset.......
Sorry to hear about your problem. Did you ever loose any pins before the reset issue appeared?
HAve fun loosing pins.
Thanks for the heads-up. I'll keep an eye out for loose pins. If propensity for pins to shoot loose becomes apparent, I'll look into a KNS kit.
BTW, did your trigger ever have reset issues before you started losing pins?
Not till it was long gone. KNS pins is the answer, its what I did. Never had the reset issue till pins were gone.
Still use it in a precision rifle.
militarymoron
02-17-08, 22:24
i use KNS pins with my timney as well.
yeap after that it came out single stage went back in .... and never looked back,
Thought I'd post a video clip demonstrating the Timney's pull.
This is a single stage 4 pound pull model. Note how crisp it breaks and the lack of creep at the time the hammer engages. This is a humongous difference from the factory S&W trigger assembly my 15T came with.
Just hit the link and the Clip will play.
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los308...Pullmpeg005.flv (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/?action=view¤t=TimneyTriggerPullmpeg005.flv)
Is this weapon to be used for home defense?
C4
Is this weapon to be used for home defense?
C4
No Sir. Carbine is for Matches and other fun filled paper punching activities.
My 45acp handgun is my HD weapon.
No Sir. Carbine is for Matches and other fun filled paper punching activities.
My 45acp handgun is my HD weapon.
Roger. You do know that the AR is a better choice for HD right?
C4
militarymoron
02-27-08, 10:40
Roger. You do know that the AR is a better choice for HD right?
C4
no way! .223 rifle bullets at home? everyone who does research on the internet knows they'll go through your walls into the next house and kill your neighbour and his dog.
either that, or they'll break up and deflect when they hit light twigs and leaves (like in 'nam).
so, don't use .223 for home defense unless you live in a grass hut where there will be no overpenetration danger.
:p just kidding.
no way! .223 rifle bullets at home? everyone who does research on the internet knows they'll go through your walls into the next house and kill your neighbour and his dog.
either that, or they'll break up and deflect when they hit light twigs and leaves (like in 'nam).
so, don't use .223 for home defense unless you live in a grass hut where there will be no overpenetration danger.
:p just kidding.
Ya, I know. :D
The way I always look at it is the bad guy will most likely be armed with a handgun. If I am also armed with a handgun, it is a fair fight (equal fire power).
Since it is MY HOME, I should have home field advantage, meaning superior fire power.
There is no such thing as a fair gun fight. ;)
C4
Roger. You do know that the AR is a better choice for HD right?
C4
I certainly don't want to come across as being Pugilistic, but I would beg to differ with you, at least in my scenario.
I certainly don't want to come across as being Pugilistic, but I would beg to differ with you, at least in my scenario.
Please give us your scenario, I would love to hear it.
C4
Good luck hope it last longer than mine did
about 700 hard rounds when it wouldnt reset.......
Early Timney units had problems, however, Timney should have replaced all those quite awhile ago.
I certainly don't want to come across as being Pugilistic, but I would beg to differ with you, at least in my scenario.
This i would love to hear, let me get some snacks ready cause I have argued this to death and those that dont know, never get it or understand it.:D
carbine anytime over a handgun for me
PhotomanM4
02-27-08, 14:05
Well just to add gas to the fire...if it weren't for the hostage issue...I would say a 12 guage shotgun would be the best for HD. Nasty at house distance with 00buck. Other than that...I would much rather shoot them with a .223 than a 9mm or .45 or .38 or...
Please give us your scenario, I would love to hear it.
C4
This i would love to hear, let me get some snacks ready cause I have argued this to death and those that dont know, never get it or understand it.:D
carbine anytime over a handgun for me
Sorry for the late response. Got called off on assignment and just made it back.
Specific HD scenario or situation was not given so I'll do my best to explain my answer and reasoning behind it.
I (we) live in a one story 4 bedroom home . All rooms are in close proximity of each other. I'm raising 4 kids. Got divorced 10 years ago.
I've carried and shot 1911 platform handguns for at least 25 years. Years ago I had a small shop where I built, modified and customized 1911s. I carry 24/7. My 1911 is extremely accurate , specially at self defence CQB distances. POA to POI is set at 20 feet.
.223 ammo would most likely over-penetrate and therefore a very high propensity for friendly fire casualty (my children) would exist in a home environment Also, my BUIS POA/POI is set at 75 feet and co-witnessed with my557. 4X Magnifier would have to be deployed to flip-up rear BUIS. Front BUIS is usually down so it would also have to be deployed.
15T is always secured unloaded in a Pelican 1700, which is kept in the closet or the trunk of one of my vehicles. Quick acquisition of my Carbine in a sudden, unexpected, unanticipated HD/SD situation is virtually impossible.
When not on my person being carried in a OWB or IWB holster, my loaded 1911 is always at arms length away. With that being said, there's always the possibility that one will arrive home after the Perp has broken in and is still there. How many here [legally] conceal carry a loaded AR-15 full time??
BTW, Why do Troops carry an M16/M4 and a sidearm?
I'm totally enjoying my 15T and I learn from you Guys and this Forum everyday. My opinions are submitted with the utmost respect to all that come across them.
I truly welcome any and all commentary.
- Jimmy
Very few troops in todays enviroment rarely carry a sidearm.
Specific HD scenario or situation was not given so I'll do my best to explain my answer and reasoning behind it.
I (we) live in a one story 4 bedroom home . All rooms are in close proximity of each other. I'm raising 4 kids. Got divorced 10 years ago.
I've carried and shot 1911 platform handguns for at least 25 years. Years ago I had a small shop where I built, modified and customized 1911s. I carry 24/7. My 1911 is extremely accurate , specially at self defence CQB distances. POA to POI is set at 20 feet.
First, since you have kids (as I do), this all the more reason to shoot a .223 as it has FAR less penetration than ANY handgun round. Even though you might be a good shot with a pistol, you will ALWAYS be a better show with a long gun (AR).
.223 ammo would most likely over-penetrate and therefore a very high propensity for friendly fire casualty (my children) would exist in a home environment.
As I suspected, this is a 100% fairy tale. .223 penetrates in or around 8 inches. HG loads can go 12-15 inches!! Your children are in FAR MORE danger with a HG load.
Also, my BUIS POA/POI is set at 75 feet and co-witnessed with my557. 4X Magnifier would have to be deployed to flip-up rear BUIS. Front BUIS is usually down so it would also have to be deployed.
First, remove the magnifier (no need for it). Second, a 25yd zero is a poor choice. Third, you irons should always be deployed.
15T is always secured unloaded in a Pelican 1700, which is kept in the closet or the trunk of one of my vehicles. Quick acquisition of my Carbine in a sudden, unexpected, unanticipated HD/SD situation is virtually impossible.
Move the weapon to your bedroom and keep a magazine for it nearby (one of the finger combo safes is a good way to go as they are fast and easy).
When not on my person being carried in a OWB or IWB holster, my loaded 1911 is always at arms length away. With that being said, there's always the possibility that one will arrive home after the Perp has broken in and is still there. How many here [legally] conceal carry a loaded AR-15 full time??
You of course may come home to someone already in your house. This is where your HG comes into play as you FIGHT YOUR WAY TO YOUR LONG GUN.
BTW, Why do Troops carry an M16/M4 and a sidearm?
Actually, most enlisted Army or Marines are not issued a sidearm.
I'm totally enjoying my 15T and I learn from you Guys and this Forum everyday. My opinions are submitted with the utmost respect to all that come across them.
I truly welcome any and all commentary.
- Jimmy
Glad you like your 15T and enjoy the forum.
As I suspected, you don't know a lot about ballistics and what is actually a good choice and what is not. I would recommend taking some carbine schools from the likes of Vickers so that you get a better undstanding on what kind of zero to use, ammo selection, etc.
C4
Great points, C4
Thanks for taking the time to post.
But,......
Why become a Neuropsychologist,...when I'm already a Neurosurgeon? (example used as a metaphor,..of course :) )
As I stated, my 15T was strictly purchased for recreational purposes. It will remain as such.
I'm proficient with my handgun. No need to re-invent the Wheel.
You guys are great.
Great points, C4
Thanks for taking the time to post.
But,......
Why become a Neuropsychologist,...when I'm already a Neurosurgeon? (example used as a metaphor,..of course :) )
As I stated, my 15T was strictly purchased for recreational purposes. It will remain as such.
I'm proficient with my handgun. No need to re-invent the Wheel.
You guys are great.
I fully understand that you bought an AR for "recreational" purposes. What I am telling you is that your logic is flawed if you believe that your HG is a better choice than an AR.
If you doubt what I am saying, talk to some of the IP's on this forum. They will tell you the same thing.
C4
I fully understand that you bought an AR for "recreational" purposes. What I am telling you is that your logic is flawed if you believe that your HG is a better choice than an AR....
C4
I too comprehend your statement(s) and they are appreciated.
You and many others on this Forum may have extensive training and/or experience with an Ar as a primary HD weapon. I certainly respect that. But that what may apply to you, does not necessarily apply to everyone else.
I believe my confidence and ability to utilize deadly force is far more superior with my handgun in a self-defense scenario involving a home invasion.
Please state a few reasons as to why an AR is a better choice (than a HG) for HD.
Once again, your commentary and opinions are indeed appreciated.
-Jimmy
PhotomanM4
02-28-08, 09:56
From a ballistics point of view, the .223 is a much better, more effective choice than the .45acp for HD. There is a lot of information available regarding .223 wall penetration. It's very counter-intuitive, but .223 really has much less wall penetration than most handgun projectiles.
Now...I do think a person could make a case for the AR being less than best for HD from the standpoint of limited maneuverability, weapon retention, etc. But ballistically, the AR is a much better choice than the .45acp.
There is some validity to the issue of weapon familiarity also. If you are a more effective operator of the 1991 than the AR, then it might very well be your best choice, but again, not from a ballistic standpoint.
From a ballistics point of view, the .223 is a much better, more effective choice than the .45acp for HD. There is a lot of information available regarding .223 wall penetration. It's very counter-intuitive, but .223 really has much less wall penetration than most handgun projectiles.
Now...I do think a person could make a case for the AR being less than best for HD from the standpoint of limited maneuverability, weapon retention, etc. But ballistically, the AR is a much better choice than the .45acp.
There is some validity to the issue of weapon familiarity also. If you are a more effective operator of the 1991 than the AR, then it might very well be your best choice, but again, not from a ballistic standpoint.
Understood.
The core of C4's opinions and statements are based on .".223 vs. 45acp" incapacitating abilities. Not necessarily "AR" vs. "Handgun".
Failure2Stop
02-28-08, 10:03
Please state a few reasons as to why an AR is a better choice (than a HG) for HD.
In no particular order-
Precision
Much higher probability of rapid incapacitation with non-CNS hits
Reduced penetration through walls
More on-board ammo
Easier multiple shots to precise location
Platform flexability
Intimidation factor (I hate writing this one)
Training and practice will enhance these attributes.
I too comprehend your statement(s) and they are appreciated.
You and many others on this Forum may have extensive training and/or experience with an Ar as a primary HD weapon. I certainly respect that. But that what may apply to you, does not necessarily apply to everyone else.
Actually it should apply to everyone else. This is why training is so important (especially if you are going to use a weapon for personal defense and the defense of your loved ones). Most people (especially male shooters) do not know what they don't know. The only way to fix this, is to take quality training classes.
I believe my confidence and ability to utilize deadly force is far more superior with my handgun in a self-defense scenario involving a home invasion.
Really? Most crime happens at night (over 70%). Have you taken basic night fighting courses? Since we are talking about home invasion, have you taken any CQB type classes? How bout CQB/night fighting courses?
Please state a few reasons as to why an AR is a better choice (than a HG) for HD.
Once again, your commentary and opinions are indeed appreciated.
-Jimmy
1. Accuracy.
2. Firepower.
3. Ammo capacity.
4. Lethality.
5. Less penetration.
The simple facts are that an AR is superior to a HG in every single way. As I stated in this thread, you have the home field advantage. Don't bring equal firepower to the fight!
C4
Understood.
The core of C4's opinions and statements are based on .".223 vs. 45acp" incapacitating abilities. Not necessarily "AR" vs. "Handgun".
It is both. .223/556 is superior to ANY HG round and the AR platform is superior to a HG.
C4
LOS
with a miimin amount of training you will be much faster with your red dot on your AR(with 50yd zero) than your 1911 or any other handgun. You will also have all the other benefits that have already been written in this thread.
I took every ones advise and did some research . There is an abundance of good, in depth data and information on the net, and on weapon related Forums that analyze this topic.
I've had a chance to do extensive reading and research and you guys hit the nail on the head!
All things considered, the AR (carbine or SBR) platform is definitely a formidable weapon for HD and I agree that, with proper training, the AR will be superior to HG HD.
I'm just an old dog that refuses to be taught new tricks. ..:p
BTW, took the 15T out to the 50 yard indoor range yesterday to test fire the Timney. I also zeroed the newly acquired TRS-1 with TAP 55gr ammo.
Pretty impressive and consistent .25MOA at 50 yards with many hole-in-one groups. Had an 8 round group that was about the size of a 45acp bullet hole. I was literally splitting Xs with this set-up.
I'm sure sub-MOA at 50 yds is very common accuracy with a carbine, but I had never owned an Ar that shot so well. I'm really enjoying my 15T.
Failure2Stop
03-02-08, 10:36
los-
It takes a big man to accept criticism and admit to a mistake.
You will be a good addition to the forum, as far as I can see, and for whatever my opinion is worth. ;)
Are you guys talking about over penetration/penetration in a human body, or just how the round performs in general?
I found this little experiment interesting:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
I don't know how valid it is, but it looks like if you miss whatever target you are aiming for, you will have to worry about what's on the other side of the wall no matter what you are shooting. How the round performs in an actual human body, I couldn't say. Also, he is using M193 which is ball ammo, not a defensive load, so I am sure that its performance has a lot to do with the penetration characteristics of the FMJ round.
Please know that I am not trying to discount any of the information you guys have presented, I am just trying to get a little more clarity on the subject.
militarymoron
03-02-08, 23:05
Pretty impressive and consistent .25MOA at 50 yards with many hole-in-one groups. Had an 8 round group that was about the size of a 45acp bullet hole.
just wanted to point out that .25MOA at 50 yds isn't the same as .25" at 50 yds (just in case you were using MOA instead of inches). a .5" group at 50 is 1MOA. .25MOA would be a .125" size group.
Well that box just saved me some money, because I was going to do a very similar experiment:cool:
The TRS-1 looks to large for a 16" barrel rifle even without the sunshade...just an FYI.
just wanted to point out that .25MOA at 50 yds isn't the same as .25" at 50 yds (just in case you were using MOA instead of inches). a .5" group at 50 is 1MOA. .25MOA would be a .125" size group.
Roger That.
Thanks for the clarification.
So,....1/4" groups at 25 yards is 1MOA, 1/2" groups at 50 yards is 1MOA........2"at 200 yards is 1MOA. so forth,....
I measured my 8 round 50 yard group with calipers and it measured .398" from the widest edges and .299" from center to center. The group can easily be covered by a dime.
Does that make my grouping a little less than .6-MOA . (assuming groups are measured center to center) (?)
Sorry, as everyone can tell, I aints to good at math..:)
Thanks again.
militarymoron
03-03-08, 10:52
los - yup, ya gots it. :)
math ain't my strongest subject either. if i run out of fingers, i'm lost.
As I suspected, this is a 100% fairy tale. .223 penetrates in or around 8 inches. HG loads can go 12-15 inches!! Your children are in FAR MORE danger with a HG load.
I hear this repeated a lot. I am not an expert. Can you offer some insight on these results as it relates to this concept?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
I hear this repeated a lot. I am not an expert. Can you offer some insight on these results as it relates to this concept?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Not sure what the question is, but would suggest that you read this first: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237
C4
Are you guys talking about over penetration/penetration in a human body, or just how the round performs in general?
I found this little experiment interesting:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
I don't know how valid it is, but it looks like if you miss whatever target you are aiming for, you will have to worry about what's on the other side of the wall no matter what you are shooting. How the round performs in an actual human body, I couldn't say. Also, he is using M193 which is ball ammo, not a defensive load, so I am sure that its performance has a lot to do with the penetration characteristics of the FMJ round.
Please know that I am not trying to discount any of the information you guys have presented, I am just trying to get a little more clarity on the subject.
The XM193 and M855 are NOT the best choices for home defense (as seen in the box O truth demo). 55gr-75gr TAP or BH's 77gr MK's should be what is used.
C4
The XM193 and M855 are NOT the best choices for home defense (as seen in the box O truth demo). 55gr-75gr TAP or BH's 77gr MK's should be what is used.
C4
Right, I understand that. I guess I was just trying to make the point that, regardless of what type of firearm and ammo you are shooting, if you miss, the round will go through walls. With a defensive load, the round is designed to expand rapidly, which means it is less likely to over-penetrate in a body. Moral of the story: use defensive ammo for defensive situations, and don't miss.
Right, I understand that. I guess I was just trying to make the point that, regardless of what type of firearm and ammo you are shooting, if you miss, the round will go through walls. With a defensive load, the round is designed to expand rapidly, which means it is less likely to over-penetrate in a body. Moral of the story: use defensive ammo for defensive situations, and don't miss.
You are correct. The point though is that even definsive HG ammo really does not differ much than standard ball HG ammo. This is why defensive built .223 is the superior choice.
C4
You are correct. The point though is that even definsive HG ammo really does not differ much than standard ball HG ammo. This is why defensive built .223 is the superior choice.
C4
I believe you. The link you posted a few replies ago is very informative.
By the way, you have a PM about an unrelated topic. :) Thanks!
Not sure what the question is, but would suggest that you read this first: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237
C4
I guess the question is, 'Is the difference between a rifle and a pistol in your house really that big?'
In these tests, using both XM193 and frangible ammunition in .223 against drywall, I'm not sure the difference is enough to matter. While the handguns penetrated more than the rifles, I'm not sure that 'only going through four walls' (eight sheets of drywall) for a rifle is significantly better than the 12 sheets of drywall (6 walls) that the handguns penetrated. How big is your house? Also, the .223 deviated sigificantly from it's point of aim as it travelled through the drywall. Pistol rounds continued in the direction they were aimed.
5.56 frangible tested here:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
I guess the question is, 'Is the difference between a rifle and a pistol in your house really that big?'
In these tests, using both XM193 and frangible ammunition in .223 against drywall, I'm not sure the difference is enough to matter. While the handguns penetrated more than the rifles, I'm not sure that 'only going through four walls' (eight sheets of drywall) for a rifle is significantly better than the 12 sheets of drywall (6 walls) that the handguns penetrated. How big is your house? Also, the .223 deviated sigificantly from it's point of aim as it travelled through the drywall. Pistol rounds continued in the direction they were aimed.
5.56 frangible tested here:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
The simple answer is YES! I would also NEVER use Frang. ammo as it often times does NOT do what it is supposed to do. Again, stick with 60gr TAP for 1/9 and 75gr TAP for 1/7 (or 77gr MK's).
While the box O truth is interesting, it is far from scientific and they also do not use the best rounds for testing (especially on the .223 side). Read the link I posted about defensive ammo. This should answer all your questions.
C4
Ya, I know. :D
The way I always look at it is the bad guy will most likely be armed with a handgun. If I am also armed with a handgun, it is a fair fight (equal fire power).
Since it is MY HOME, I should have home field advantage, meaning superior fire power.
There is no such thing as a fair gun fight. ;)
C4
IMHO - "Ka-12ga." w/ BB shot is king of the castle..
E! ;)
Wow this thread went off on a tangent! Congrats on the Timney, is it the 2-stage or single stage?
i question the sanity of anyone who would KNOWINGLY enter into a gunfight armed with a HANDgun.
Wow this thread went off on a tangent! Congrats on the Timney, is it the 2-stage or single stage?
SS.
i question the sanity of anyone who would KNOWINGLY enter into a gunfight armed with a HANDgun.
In a shtf, sudden CQB scenario involving last resort lethal self defense counteraction, one usually doesn't have the luxury of having the time to question their sanity.
SS.
In a shtf, sudden CQB scenario involving last resort lethal self defense counteraction, one usually doesn't have the luxury of having the time to question their sanity.
those sure are fancy words strung together eloquently.:D
gun fight with a long gun. period.;)
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