View Full Version : Observation on grip safeties.
This morning while attending a local basic defensive handgun class i observed and interesting occurance with shooters that were using the XD (and XDm) and to a much smaller instance the 1911 platform.
During the class in order to simulate a high stress situation the instructor who is retired usmc, would yell at the shooter while the shooter was attempting to draw from a holster and hit a target at 7 yards.
Almost every shooter that were using the mentioned platforms stuggled to get a round off from draw because under the stress of the situation did not get a proper grip on the handgun to depress the grip safety. Now those who have previously trainied with their firearms generally did not have an issue, but the shooters who were new to shooting or have never received any formal training struggled the most.
Just my personal observation, take it for what it's worth.
TangoSauce
11-24-12, 17:53
I carried a XD9 for about a year, and the grip safety was why I carried it. At the time, I was new to carrying and liked the redundant safety. I've run mine in a course or two with no problems.
They certainly aren't ideal though, and I could imagine problems like what you observed happening more often that one would want in a life-threatening situation.
Suits me. My handguns only have to work in my hands. Could be desirable that they don't work for others.
I carried a XD9 for about a year, and the grip safety was why I carried it. At the time, I was new to carrying and liked the redundant safety. I've run mine in a course or two with no problems.
They certainly aren't ideal though, and I could imagine problems like what you observed happening more often that one would want in a life-threatening situation.
I think the grip saftey can be looked at as both a pro and a con. If the shooter is willing to train I dont see it as much as an issue, however most new buyers should be made aware of what could potentially happen.
TangoSauce
11-24-12, 18:03
I think the grip saftey can be looked at as both a pro and a con. If the shooter is willing to train I dont see it as much as an issue, however most new buyers should be made aware of what could potentially happen.
Very true. The other consideration in the grip safety is the con of having dirt jam up the safety to yield a useless weapon. If you're carrying in the city not much of an issue, but in many other environments it's something not worth risking.
Very interesting. Never heard of that before. Good they were finding that out in now rather than when it mattered. Sounds like for them the class was money well spent. I think it's an issue they can resolve through training.
This morning while attending a local basic defensive handgun class i observed and interesting occurance with shooters that were using the XD (and XDm) and to a much smaller instance the 1911 platform.
During the class in order to simulate a high stress situation the instructor who is retired usmc, would yell at the shooter while the shooter was attempting to draw from a holster and hit a target at 7 yards.
Almost every shooter that were using the mentioned platforms stuggled to get a round off from draw because under the stress of the situation did not get a proper grip on the handgun to depress the grip safety. Now those who have previously trainied with their firearms generally did not have an issue, but the shooters who were new to shooting or have never received any formal training struggled the most.
Just my personal observation, take it for what it's worth.
Sounds more like a user issue than the safety itself. The ones who practiced with and trained and /or generally played with their gun did better than those who just picked it up lately.
The same could be said about DA/SA and why we dont like those. Or Revolvers because they didnt take the time to learn the long DA pull for every shot.
Urban_Redneck
11-24-12, 20:00
To my mind what the grip safety "incidents" highlight is the importance establishing a proper grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster.
Pardon my reluctance to blame the hardware, I'm still kind of green...
YMMV
TangoSauce
11-24-12, 20:21
To my mind what the grip safety "incidents" highlight is the importance establishing a proper grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster.
+1
:agree:
Very interesting. Never heard of that before. Good they were finding that out in now rather than when it mattered. Sounds like for them the class was money well spent. I think it's an issue they can resolve through training.
The instructor did work with the students who were having issues and by the end of the class most were showing signs of improvement.
To my mind what the grip safety "incidents" highlight is the importance establishing a proper grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster.
Pardon my reluctance to blame the hardware, I'm still kind of green...
YMMV
I'm not blaming the hardware as much as noticing that there may be additional training required for such. And the proper grip issue was huge especially for one guy who grabbed his pistol will all five fingers on the right side of his gun...
brushy bill
11-24-12, 20:39
Very true. The other consideration in the grip safety is the con of having dirt jam up the safety to yield a useless weapon. If you're carrying in the city not much of an issue, but in many other environments it's something not worth risking.
OK. Before the incoming starts, I don't own and have no desire to own a Springfield XD of any iteration. No slam on the platform, I am already Glock and M&P situated and thinking of a PPQ and don't want/ need another polymer wonder and can't understand why Springfield won't address some of the known issues with the platform other than they don't care. HOWEVER, the 'dirt jams the grip safety' argument stuptifies me...was this really an issue with the 1911? None I ever encountered. I mean if you immerse any weapon in sludge and don't clean it, guess what, it will fail. But I have never heard of this as a weakness except when applied to the XD. Why is this?
misanthropist
11-24-12, 21:50
OK. Before the incoming starts, I don't own and have no desire to own a Springfield XD of any iteration. No slam on the platform, I am already Glock and M&P situated and thinking of a PPQ and don't want/ need another polymer wonder and can't understand why Springfield won't address some of the known issues with the platform other than they don't care. HOWEVER, the 'dirt jams the grip safety' argument stuptifies me...was this really an issue with the 1911? None I ever encountered. I mean if you immerse any weapon in sludge and don't clean it, guess what, it will fail. But I have never heard of this as a weakness except when applied to the XD. Why is this?
I have literally never seen a 1911 with a grip safety that is as loosely "fit" as an XD.
Here's a pic I found that shows the problem pretty well IMO:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/stevensavage/100_2873Medium.jpg
The design of the 1911 grip safety seems much more resistant to issues with foreign matter than the XD series. Obviously the "grip safety locks the slide" is a more immediate concern, but there you have it: that's why I think you hear about it on the XD and not the 1911. The 1911 has a much better grip safety design.
BrigandTwoFour
11-24-12, 22:08
I don't have any issue with grip safeties, in principle. I've never run my 1911 hard enough to have a problem, but while shooting with a friend of mine I saw something that scared the bejesus out of me.
We were practicing from a draw when he grabbed the pistol, aimed, squeezed....and nothing happened.
Some roll pin or something or other came loose and jammed in the mechanism. It took tearing the whole thing down and ordering replacement parts before it was up and running again. Now, this guy is a known tinkerer and he may have done something previously that increased the probability of this event. But, regardless, not having one on my pistol is just one less thing I have to worry about in a defensive firearm.
brushy bill
11-24-12, 22:32
I have literally never seen a 1911 with a grip safety that is as loosely "fit" as an XD.
Here's a pic I found that shows the problem pretty well IMO:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/stevensavage/100_2873Medium.jpg
The design of the 1911 grip safety seems much more resistant to issues with foreign matter than the XD series. Obviously the "grip safety locks the slide" is a more immediate concern, but there you have it: that's why I think you hear about it on the XD and not the 1911. The 1911 has a much better grip safety design.
Gotcha. Thanks. I thought the designs were similar and this should not be an issue. From what I read here, XD isn't as well designed as 1911 and that is the problem. Tracking now.
brushy bill
11-24-12, 22:37
I don't have any issue with grip safeties, in principle. I've never run my 1911 hard enough to have a problem, but while shooting with a friend of mine I saw something that scared the bejesus out of me.
We were practicing from a draw when he grabbed the pistol, aimed, squeezed....and nothing happened.
Some roll pin or something or other came loose and jammed in the mechanism. It took tearing the whole thing down and ordering replacement parts before it was up and running again. Now, this guy is a known tinkerer and he may have done something previously that increased the probability of this event. But, regardless, not having one on my pistol is just one less thing I have to worry about in a defensive firearm.
Copy. Sounds like the striker retainer pin. Well known weakness with the design (if this is the same issue your friend had). One of the things that Springfield knows about and should correct mentioned in my original post. Can't figure out why they won't fix it. Thanks.
BrigandTwoFour
11-24-12, 22:59
I should have added that that my friend's pistol was an XD, not a 1911. I think ya'll assumed that already, but I just wanted to clarify.
I would like to know how these students could grip the gun and NOT depress the grip safety?
TriviaMonster
11-25-12, 00:50
I have noticed this, not just with grip safeties but also manual safeties. Shit, also people who refuse to carry with one in the chamber. Who really has time to draw and rack it? Not this guy. But, as I have been told from several instructors, the CCW draw is one of the most difficult basic skills to truly master.
Train, train, train. And on a different note, I did witness an ND in a class where we were practicing high stress draws like the OP. It was a Glock and was fired about halfway through the draw at the ground towards the backstop at about a 45° angle (thank God). Yes, he was a noob. A lucky noob.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
I would like to know how these students could grip the gun and NOT depress the grip safety? This. On a full sized XDm you have to have your pinky completely off the grip to be able to miss the grip safety.
The picture above of the grip safety is deceiving. Close inspection will reveal that behind the lower part of the grip safety is a shelf that helps block debris from getting into the action behind the grip safety. If it doesn't clear the grit it will jamb SHUT and still function. The side clearance of the grip safety is as tight as my custom fit Wilson high grip safety on my 1911's.
How do I know this? Well, rather than accepting the "internets" as the truth I tested it myself right after reading this thread.
I happen to be the owner of a Glock 19 (new tonight), a Glock 17, and an XDm .40 I also happen to be in possession of a pound of 80 grit rock polishing compound. I placed each pistol above a zip lock bag and poured one tablespoon of the grit into the large holes in the back of the slide on each pistol. Then I took an additional tablespoon and dumped it over the grip safety area of the XDm.
Guess what happened? All three pistols were racked and reset when the test began. Only the XDm dry fired (XD's strikers are cocked when the slide cycles) and the Glocks did not (strikers were full of grit) . All three pistols allowed their slides to move back and none of them reset.
The XDm's grip safey was stuck down and allowed the slide to function just fine. 3 racks of the slide and three plunges of the grip safety and the XDm was back to dry firing. The slide was able to be removed after those three racks and plunges.
The Glocks, not so much. Repeated racking of the slides could not get the trigger to reset. The G17, which was lubed like the XDm would not even allow the trigger to move. It took running it under the sink and flushing for me to even get the trigger moving. It then took several more minutes to get the slide to come off.
The G19, still new and unlubed faired a little better, but it still took several minutes to clear enough of the grit to get the slide off and blow it out.
Now I have three pistols that need detail stripped tomorrow. That 80 grit sand is nasty shit. Frankly, I was surprised. I've invested in the Glocks because of their stellar reputation for reliability and ability to function in adverse conditions. Not sure what it proves, but it sure made me think twice about this whole stupid grit issue that keeps coming up about XDm's.
I figured if I was going to clean 3 tomorrow, I might as well clean 5.
Due to their tight slides and no/small openings to the inner trigger parts, a teaspoon of grit poured on the back of a CW40 Kahr and a Colt Commander resulted in both pistols dry firing and re-setting without any issue.
Pouring grit on the back of the slide/grip area is as best as I can figure dirt would effect a holstered pistol.
I own several XD pistols.....
you would literally have to be gripping the gun with your pinky finger off the grip, and holding the grip like a baseball bat (all of your hand at the bottom of the grip) not to activate it...and the grip itself has zero tension in order to activate it
there seems to be a lot of bad information on the XD series here....
and the issue about the grip safety jamming up with debris, there is actually a block behind the safety that keeps debris from getting into the action...
I ccw a XD, and during the course of my normal day i have never had to roll around in a dirt-pile or swim out of a quick-sand pit then fire my XD....the grit issue is ridiculous.....
the roll pin issue??....a five minute fix that is as easy to change as a glock trigger spring......and most of these pins will break after excessive dry firing.....during live fire/snap cap the striker does not come in contact with the retaining pin....
a lot of bashing on this platform that is unwarranted IMO
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.