HK P30 vs Sig Sauer P226 Elite question [Archive]

dean1197

11-25-12, 00:48

mark7

11-25-12, 08:10

FWIW: Have you considered a Bruce Gray reduced reset carry perfection job? I have a P30 tuned by Bruce's shop and it breaks clean and the reset is sweet.

http://grayguns.com/gunsmith-services/heckler-koch-pistols/

GJM

11-25-12, 08:23

With good technique, I think that all the major platforms (Glock, Sig, M&P, HK) can be shot well, with small performance differences that only show up in competition or intensive drills, and fall into the category of inconsequential differences. That said, with tens of thousands of LEM rounds, I think the HK LEM requires more effort than virtually every other major platform to shoot well, is the most unforgiving of bad technique, and requires constant practice to maintain that ability. Especially so, support hand only. Of course, there isn't a more accurate, more reliable, higher build quality pistol made.

DBZ220

11-25-12, 08:28

My P30 has a terrible trigger and I dislike the way it feels in my hand. But I'd take it over the "Elite" version of the P226.
I would consider the P226/MK25 instead of the Elite.

Redbeardsong

11-25-12, 08:51

My P30 has a terrible trigger and I dislike the way it feels in my hand.

How exactly did you decide to acquire one?

S. Galbraith

11-25-12, 08:53

I've used Sigs since the 90s. I've always shot them well, even in DA mode. However, the first time I tried out a P30 DA/SA I shot it just as well as my Sigs. The triggers are close enough in feel that my muscle memory carried over to the H&K with no problem. In fact, I actually shot the P30 a little better as the grip contoured to my hand better allowing for a more stable shooting platform. DA/SA guns just take more time and ammo to master. Most shooters I've followed over the years have needed to process several thousand rounds, spread over at least a couple of dozen training sessions to really get muscle memory down. Just like fitness training, it is a process of training and rest, training and rest, spread over time. However, once you get the muscle memory down, it becomes pretty second nature.

I think that the P30 is an all around better gun than Sigs in any flavor.

DBZ220

11-25-12, 09:00

How exactly did you decide to acquire one?

I had one and sold it due to the long gritty trigger that sample had. My wife thought I liked it and missed it, and bought me a P30S last year as a gift. While this versions trigger is better, I still greatly dislike the weapon overall.
I also make sure to convey why I get rid of certain guns now so family members don't gift me another one.

YVK

11-25-12, 09:31

What i'm wondering is, will my better handling/the cleaner breaking trigger of the Sig Sauer have any effect on my accuracy and firing speed?

There isn't much practical difference in SA performance between the two. The SRT has of course has a shorter reset, but HK's reset is more forceful. Targets look the same to me. The DA action on HK leaves a lot to be desired, however, the Sig's one is still 10 lbs of long pull. While HK is harder to hit fast on a first shot, I am not sure that the difference is that big that you'll be able to hit with Sig when you can't with HK. Of course, even if you shot DA shot better with Sig, you'd still be trading one set of problems for another. There is a number of shooters doing well with DA/SA P30. I am not a great shot, but I only give up .20-.25 seconds on a first shot comparing with my 5.25 lbs Bruce Gray LEM. I'd stay with HK. I'd also consider taking a class from instructors who know how to shoot DA/SA guns.

DBZ: if you decided to sell your P30S, drop me a pm; I might be interested depending on circumstances.

S. Galbraith

11-25-12, 10:22

I am not a great shot, but I only give up .20-.25 seconds on a first shot comparing with my 5.25 lbs Bruce Gray LEM.

Precisely. That speed advantage is usually only there when a shooter is having a good day, and when they are warmed up. Even then, a little extra speed is NOT a force multiplier in a pistol fight. Delivering accurate shots while making good decisions to avoid taking hits yourself is what matters. If you are drawing down on someone who is doing the same, you've both lost the fight in that both of you are about to be full of holes, regardless of who is faster with the first shot.

GJM

11-25-12, 12:24

YVK, the SA with SRT on the 226 feels like cheating compared to the P30 SA trigger.

SkiDevil

11-25-12, 12:36

The answers already provided warrant some consideration. I agree that the HK is an excellent firearm and I would recommend sticking to it as well. I have heard that Bruce Gray can improve the trigger on any HK pistol. However, it is up to you if the cost is justified. In looking at his website, there is a wait time and many of the packages are not cheap. Perhaps someone can provide an approx. price of the tuning job for an HK pistol.

I have been seriously considering purchasing a P30 in 9mm. At the moment, I have been using an HK USP Compact in 9mm. It is a great pistol and very accurate. The trigger in single-action is very clean and crisp, and comparable to the 226 9mm pistols that I own.

I would continue shooting your P30 for ay least a thousand rounds and if doesn't improve and smooth out (or perform to your needs), then consider the Bruce Gray trigger mods or switching-out to another model or brand.

P.S. It was not mentioned, but do you have any type of formal training under your belt? If not a basic class or short one-on-one training session could be very useful in furthering your skill and proficiency.

Also, regarding the difference in the barrels between the SIG and the HK, the P30 uses the polygnal rifling whereas the SIG is a standard carbon steel barrel. The HK barrels like Glocks are typically easier to clean when used with jacketed bullets. That said, the SIG 226 in 9mm has been one of the most accurate and reliable pistols that I have owned. The two I regularly use have yet to exhibit any malfunctions after several thousand rounds of firing.

HKGuns

11-25-12, 14:46

If you have only one pistol the trigger might make a difference and in that case the best advice is to practice with that pistol.

If like me, you have a significant number of pistols you'll soon learn that each trigger is different and you need to adapt to them, not adapt them to suit your tastes. I continue to be amazed at how much conversation time triggers get on this and several other of these forums. Second, everyone is different and what might be a great trigger to you will not be to someone else.

Oh and for those complaining about the DA trigger pull on these polymer auto's, you seriously need to practice with a heavy DA revolver....Learn to shoot that well and all these auto's will seem not an issue.

I chalk pistol trigger talk up to inexperience or the competition guy who's 1. Very good and trying to squeeze every last tenth of a second or 2. Sucks and is looking for something to blame for his suckness.

Either Sig or HK will both be wonderful pistols, HK has always had the edge for me and even more so since Sig started down the "We've got a special model for every occasion" path.

LorenzoS

11-25-12, 15:26

Alaskapopo

11-25-12, 16:44

If you could buy better performance there would be so many more great shooters in this world. Sadly you cannot. If you suck with your HK's stock trigger you will still suck with a nicer trigger. Sorry.

Actually you can buy improvement with better triggers. No it will not make a crap shooting into a great one but you will see improvement.
Pat

Striker

11-25-12, 16:52

Hi, I currently own an HK P30 but I don't like the trigger, specifically I don't like the way it breaks. Whenever I fire the gun I have to be very conscientious about squeezing the trigger correctly, espically when it comes time for the trigger to break. However, today I went and checked out the Sig Sauer p226 Elite with SRT (short resest trigger) trigger and although the take up was just as long it broke alot cleaner and I didn't have to focus nearly as much attention on squeezing/breaking the trigger properly, I could simply do it out of muscle memory. What i'm wondering is, will my better handling/the cleaner breaking trigger of the Sig Sauer have any effect on my accuracy and firing speed?
I should note; the Hk fits into my hand better, and I'm guessing that the HK has a better barrel too. I also have owned my HK for over a year and a half and have dry fired (with snap caps) extensively over that period and I still have to focus on my trigger pull more than I should when firing.

Thanks,
Dean

How many live rounds have you run through the HK? How many did you run through the Sig or did you run any though it? Will you be faster or more accurate with the Sig? Impossible to say unless you run some intensive drills with both. The target and clock will answer your question for you. If I were to guess, I would guess no. The HK trigger isn't great, but it's usable. I agree that Sig has a smoother trigger, but if I had to choose between a new Sig and new HK, I would choose the HK. I think it's a more durable gun. Trigger doesn't make a huge difference between the two for me and accuracy is close as well with the HK being a little more accurate, so I wouldn't see a need to change. Btw, that's from someone that owns a German Sig P226 and likes the P226. Back in the pre-226R days, I would say it's a toss up. Now, I think HK makes a better gun. Just my opinion and YMMV.

YVK

11-25-12, 19:15

Perhaps someone can provide an approx. price of the tuning job for an HK pistol. .

Carry package is 325. They prefer you ship UPS and not use Fedex. The whole pleasure gets into 500 range, unless you have a friendly FFL to ship it USPS. Or roughly 2500 rounds of practice ammo.
I shoot same or faster splits with rental DA/SA than with my reduced reset (half of the stock reset distance) LEM. My shooting buddy regularly out shoots me during pin shoot matches, which are nothing other than splits, with his stock LEM. People who say that short reset is so important have no personal experience of comparing guns with different reset distances but identical otherwise.

Alaskapopo

11-25-12, 21:03

Carry package is 325. They prefer you ship UPS and not use Fedex. The whole pleasure gets into 500 range, unless you have a friendly FFL to ship it USPS. Or roughly 2500 rounds of practice ammo.
I shoot same or faster splits with rental DA/SA than with my reduced reset (half of the stock reset distance) LEM. My shooting buddy regularly out shoots me during pin shoot matches, which are nothing other than splits, with his stock LEM. People who say that short reset is so important have no personal experience of comparing guns with different reset distances but identical otherwise.

Actually reset does matter and yes I have compared guns with different reset distances from stock Sigs, Browning HP's HK's, Glocks 1911's etc.
Pat

YVK

11-25-12, 21:17

Actually reset does matter and yes I have compared guns with different reset distances from stock Sigs, Browning HP's HK's, Glocks 1911's etc.
Pat

To say reset matters, you have to compare two identical guns that only differ in one parameter - reset. Tell me how this worked out with guns you listed above - did somebody lengthen the reset on your Sigs, Glocks or 1911s, cause their stock resets are pretty short?

Alaskapopo

11-25-12, 21:29

To say reset matters, you have to compare two identical guns that only differ in one parameter - reset. Tell me how this worked out with guns you listed above - did somebody lengthen the reset on your Sigs, Glocks or 1911s, cause their stock resets are pretty short?

Actually I had my 226 get the SRT treatment and the improvement is noticable and yes I have compared it to my friends stock 226. To say it does not matter shows a lack of understanding on the mechanics of shooting.
Pat

YVK

11-26-12, 00:19

Actually reset does matter and yes I have compared guns with different reset distances from stock Sigs, Browning HP's HK's, Glocks 1911's etc.

Actually I had my 226 get the SRT treatment and the improvement is noticable and yes I have compared it to my friends stock 226.

There is significant shrinkage of your reference group of five different brands/types to one, once we start talking specifics. But, beyond that, what is "noticable"? Is it a level of an argument we're having? I on my side have multiple short-format drills, results of IDPA matches, results of pin shoots, all of them timed and scored, but that's nothing comparing to "noticable"...

To say it does not matter shows a lack of understanding on the mechanics of shooting.
Pat

I am so eager to be educated by you on that matter that I am besides myself :sarcastic:...

You seem to not understand what I am trying to convey here: I am a guy who spent a half thousand USD on a LEM trigger job which ultimate selling point is a reset reduction, just because the dogma is "short reset is soo important". Do I like it how it feels - yes. Does it allow me to move between different platforms and not short-stroke the trigger when I return back to P30 - yes. Would I take a short reset over long one - yes, of course I would if it came free. Has it allowed me to shoot faster splits comparing to twice long stock reset of DA/SA P30 - no.
I have no interest in convincing you that my experience is true; after all, you're the one who understands mechanics of shooting here. I am simply putting this out here for an unbiased reader to digest.

Alaskapopo

11-26-12, 00:31

There is significant shrinkage of your reference group of five different brands/types to one, once we start talking specifics. But, beyond that, what is "noticable"? Is it a level of an argument we're having? I on my side have multiple short-format drills, results of IDPA matches, results of pin shoots, all of them timed and scored, but that's nothing comparing to "noticable"...

I am so eager to be educated by you on that matter that I am besides myself :sarcastic:...

You seem to not understand what I am trying to convey here: I am a guy who spent a half thousand USD on a LEM trigger job which ultimate selling point is a reset reduction, just because the dogma is "short reset is soo important". Do I like it how it feels - yes. Does it allow me to move between different platforms and not short-stroke the trigger when I return back to P30 - yes. Would I take a short reset over long one - yes, of course I would if it came free. Has it allowed me to shoot faster splits comparing to twice long stock reset of DA/SA P30 - no.
I have no interest in convincing you that my experience is true; after all, you're the one who understands mechanics of shooting here. I am simply putting this out here for an unbiased reader to digest.

Not allowing the comparision of different guns with long and shorter reset triggers is flawed. Nothing wrong with comparing a BHP in 9mm to a 1911 in 9mm etc. You made a flat absolute statement and like most absolute statements they are usually false. That statement being " People who say that short reset is so important have no personal experience of comparing guns with different reset distances but identical otherwise." You can not disregard everyone elses experiences but your own and expect to be taken seriously.

I too have shot Sigs, 1911's Glocks, Revolvers etc in timed drills, scored matches (IDPA, USPSA, THREE GUN, STEEL CHALLENGE, ) etc. and my experience does not agree with yours.
Pat

YVK

11-26-12, 00:46

Not allowing the comparision of different guns with long and shorter reset triggers is flawed. Nothing wrong with comparing a BHP in 9mm to a 1911 in 9mm etc....
You can not disregard everyone elses experiences but your own and expect to be taken seriously.

In other words, you're saying it is perfectly valid to compare the guns in terms of reset distance and state that it positively makes appreciable difference, when these guns might different in weight, ergos, reciprocating mass of slide, recoil spring weight, height over the bore, angular deflection, abrasiveness of the grip...Well let's put this out here for everybody else to read and see who is going to be taken seriously.
I don't disregard everybody's else experience; I question dogmatic statements.

Alaskapopo

11-26-12, 01:09

In other words, you're saying it is perfectly valid to compare the guns in terms of reset distance and state that it positively makes appreciable difference, when these guns might different in weight, ergos, reciprocating mass of slide, recoil spring weight, height over the bore, angular deflection, abrasiveness of the grip...Well let's put this out here for everybody else to read and see who is going to be taken seriously.
I don't disregard everybody's else experience; I question dogmatic statements.

When your comparing the triggers yes. Also the guns don't need to be identical for you to tell the difference in triggers. One of my comparisions was identical guns by the way and you totally swept that aside. I question absolute statements made by anyone. I also tend to disregard people who say only their experience matters.
Pat

YVK

11-26-12, 09:03

I also tend to disregard people who say only their experience matters.
Pat

That group would include you since I don't ever remember you acknowledging opponent's point in an argument. This discussion is a good example. Not only you try arguing a very logical point made in tune with principles of comparative research methodology, you also make a fairly personal comment about opponent's understanding of shooting mechanics.

In order to stop this thread derail: you win, I lose, short reset makes all the difference in the world, you can deduce it by comparing a DAO snubby with a Glock 34.

S. Galbraith

11-26-12, 12:37

In my experience, a predictable and controlled trigger pull is superior in delivering better performance than the actual reset itself. A 1911 has the benefit of a more controlled pull due to having a sliding trigger rather than a hinged trigger. A Glock by no means has a short pull length, nor a crisp break, but it is very predictable. That predictability makes it fast, not its length of pull or reset.

When it comes to developing excellent muscle memory, these details really do boil down to inconsequential increments from a practical standpoint. Two trigger variations obviously translates into almost double the training routine to become proficient. However, if the work is put into it one can become very proficient in DA/SA or other incarnations such as LEM.

Mjolnir

11-26-12, 17:33

I would consider the P226/MK25 instead of the Elite.

This.

badness

11-26-12, 17:45

Hi, I currently own an HK P30 but I don't like the trigger, specifically I don't like the way it breaks. Whenever I fire the gun I have to be very conscientious about squeezing the trigger correctly, espically when it comes time for the trigger to break. However, today I went and checked out the Sig Sauer p226 Elite with SRT (short resest trigger) trigger and although the take up was just as long it broke alot cleaner and I didn't have to focus nearly as much attention on squeezing/breaking the trigger properly, I could simply do it out of muscle memory. What i'm wondering is, will my better handling/the cleaner breaking trigger of the Sig Sauer have any effect on my accuracy and firing speed?
I should note; the Hk fits into my hand better, and I'm guessing that the HK has a better barrel too. I also have owned my HK for over a year and a half and have dry fired (with snap caps) extensively over that period and I still have to focus on my trigger pull more than I should when firing.

Thanks,
Dean

I agree with you that the sig's have a lot nicer triggers. My p229 elite stainless with srt is sweet, however when looking at the overall gun, i'd take the p30 over the 229 any day of the week. I've had multiple fail to lock back problems on my p229. I thought it was because of my grip at first, however after making damn sure that none of my hand was touching slide lock, it still had issues locking back. My p30 has been flawless since day 1.

S. Galbraith

11-26-12, 18:19

I've had multiple fail to lock back problems on my p229. I thought it was because of my grip at first, however after making damn sure that none of my hand was touching slide lock, it still had issues locking back. My p30 has been flawless since day 1.

This is a very common problem with new Sigs. I've seen quite a few myself with this particular problem.....even after changing out all pistol and magazine springs. On the flip side, most of our agency guns were purchased either in the 1990s, or were part of the 2004 DHS contract. The high level of reliability in these guns is an amazing contrast in comparison to modern Sigs. Sigs were definately one of the best service pistols available when they were made right. Even though they are a little outdated, the old ones would give any pistol model made today a real run for their money.

HKGuns

11-27-12, 21:12

Actually reset does matter and yes I have compared guns with different reset distances from stock Sigs, Browning HP's HK's, Glocks 1911's etc.

Matter for what, games? "maybe" but not for anything practical. Pistols are close in defensive weapons and the trigger differences at pistol ranges is meaningless as far as accuracy is concerned. Center of mass will be a hit, if you know what you are doing, with either a DA revolver or 1911. In a defensive situation you won't know whether you're pulling DAO or SA.

Even in "most" games time improvements are seen by improving your reloads, handling or movement, not shot to shot times. Accuracy doesn't count in "most" games also.....Again, center of mass is what scores in "most" of the games. If you can't hit center of mass on a standard silhouette the trigger reset or trigger pull isn't likely your problem.

Alaskapopo

11-27-12, 21:35

Matter for what, games? "maybe" but not for anything practical. Pistols are close in defensive weapons and the trigger differences at pistol ranges is meaningless as far as accuracy is concerned. Center of mass will be a hit, if you know what you are doing, with either a DA revolver or 1911. In a defensive situation you won't know whether you're pulling DAO or SA.

Even in "most" games time improvements are seen by improving your reloads, handling or movement, not shot to shot times. Accuracy doesn't count in "most" games also.....Again, center of mass is what scores in "most" of the games. If you can't hit center of mass on a standard silhouette the trigger reset or trigger pull isn't likely your problem.

Newsflash what matters for games namely being fast and accurate also matters in real life.

Second newsflash not all pistol gun fights are at close range. I know of one at 70 yards involving a MP who saved they day by killing an AK armed soldier who went off the deep end and started shooting his fellow soldiers on base. I also know of a Alaska State Trooper shooting at 35 yards.

3rd Newsflash center of mass is not always going to do the job some times you have to take a head shot or a pelvic shot which requires accuracy.

Basically put shot placement is what wins fights anything that makes that harder under the stress of someone trying to kill you is a very bad thing. I have been in a defensive situation although my attacker had fur, teath and claws. I can tell you I was very well I was exactly aware of the gun I was shooting.

Having a shorter trigger reset means you will be able to fire just a bit faster which may or may not save your life. And as a avid shooter of several games I can tell you accuracy is what separates the top shooters from those that are just mediocure. Sure you need to be fast too but you can't miss your way to winning.

Now I am not saying trigger reset is the only factor to consider but it is a factor.
Pat

brushy bill

11-27-12, 22:35

I know of one at 70 yards involving a MP who saved they day by killing an AK armed soldier who went off the deep end and started shooting his fellow soldiers on base.
Pat

How does this (if we are referencing the same incident...maybe not... it was a Security Forces Airman and not a Soldier) relate to reset?

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 01:17

How does this (if we are referencing the same incident...maybe not... it was a Security Forces Airman and not a Soldier) relate to reset?

Do I really have to break it down for you? My point was that not all pistols fights are at close range as the person I responded to was implying. Having a shorter trigger reset makes you better able to respond with repeat shots quickly and accurately. The Airman (soldier same difference in the grand scheme of things) fired several rounds so repeat shots were a factor. By some peoples logic he would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.
Pat

SPD

11-28-12, 07:10

By some peoples logic he would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.
Pat

Unless he had extensive experience and training, as most likely he didn't, then yes he probably would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.

I am not saying that a shorter trigger reset is not a good thing, but it is relative to the experience of the operator and their famalarity with the platfortm.

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 12:32

Unless he had extensive experience and training, as most likely he didn't, then yes he probably would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.

I am not saying that a shorter trigger reset is not a good thing, but it is relative to the experience of the operator and their famalarity with the platfortm.

There have been shootings with officers having to use the Beretta DAO pulling the trigger several times without it firing because they were not releasing the trigger far enough to reset under stress. A shorter lighter trigger is better for speed and accuracy simple as that.
Pat

YVK

11-28-12, 14:05

A shorter lighter trigger is better for speed and accuracy simple as that.
Pat

I thought you said absolute statements were to be disregarded.

Do I really have to break it down for you? My point was that not all pistols fights are at close range as the person I responded to was implying. Having a shorter trigger reset makes you better able to respond with repeat shots quickly and accurately. The Airman (soldier same difference in the grand scheme of things) fired several rounds so repeat shots were a factor. By some peoples logic he would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.
Pat

The longer the distance, the less important the reset it. At 70 yards with multiple shots fired the time to reacquire a sight picture between the shots would be significantly longer than the time required to reset any pistol, as long as you're doing both things concurrently, as you should. So, yeah, if DAO Beretta had a smooth pull that wasn't prohibitively heavy, he'd probably done just as well.
If you shoot blind splits - shorter reset wins. As target's difficulty increases, the reset becomes less and less relevant.

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 14:16

I thought you said absolute statements were to be disregarded.

The longer the distance, the less important the reset it. At 70 yards with multiple shots fired the time to reacquire a sight picture between the shots would be significantly longer than the time required to reset any pistol, as long as you're doing both things concurrently, as you should. So, yeah, if DAO Beretta had a smooth pull that wasn't prohibitively heavy, he'd probably done just as well.
If you shoot blind splits - shorter reset wins. As target's difficulty increases, the reset becomes less and less relevant.

The first statement while absolute is true. If it were not precision rifles would have DA pulls. For long pistol shots a short reset is even more important because releasing to the sear disrupts your sights less than coming off the trigger and slapping it like you have to with a long reset trigger.
Pat

balance

11-28-12, 14:52

Am I the only person who thinks that all aspects of a pistol make a difference in how well it will perform in your hands?

What does it matter if the best shooter in the world won't notice a difference? The question should be, "will I?", or in this case, "will the OP?".

Who here would choose a pistol with a longer reset if a shorter one was available on the same pistol?

I can tell what pistols people prefer to use by hearing which negative aspects of pistols they are trying to downplay.

"triggers don't matter" = H&K fan.
"muzzle flip makes no difference" = Walther fan
"grips don't matter" = Glock fan

And all use the terms "get used to it" or "it is a training issue" when defending their chosen pistol. There is no perfect pistol. All pistols will have at least one item in the "negatives" section of their description.

This thread has gotten off topic. This thread was started as a comparison to help the OP make a decision. He doesn't need to "get used to" anything yet. Why not list the positives and negatives of the pistols on the OP's list, and have enough faith in his intelligence to let him make up his own mind on what is important to him?

Everything is a training issue. If grips didn't matter, and triggers didn't matter, and flip didn't matter, who here would be excited to hear that a new pistol was coming out with a Glock grip, a Walther recoil impulse, and an H&K trigger?

YVK

11-28-12, 14:58

The first statement while absolute is true. If it were not precision rifles would have DA pulls. For long pistol shots a short reset is even more important because releasing to the sear disrupts your sights less than coming off the trigger and slapping it like you have to with a long reset trigger.
Pat

So if you say the statement is true, it is an absolute truth, and if I say something different, than it isn't...
I am sure precisions rifles would've had DA pulls if they didn't have manual safeties.
People I listen to in regards to pistol shooting neither release to the sear nor slap the trigger, regardless of the trigger. More so, trigger release and reset for a follow-up shot occur in recoil when your sights are "disrupted" anyway, so that part of your statement I highlighted in bold would only make sense if you pinned the trigger back and held it there in recoil, resetting after sight's return on the target - which is a technique that's not designed for any follow-up speed shooting at all.

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 15:45

So if you say the statement is true, it is an absolute truth, and if I say something different, than it isn't...
I am sure precisions rifles would've had DA pulls if they didn't have manual safeties.
People I listen to in regards to pistol shooting neither release to the sear nor slap the trigger, regardless of the trigger. More so, trigger release and reset for a follow-up shot occur in recoil when your sights are "disrupted" anyway, so that part of your statement I highlighted in bold would only make sense if you pinned the trigger back and held it there in recoil, resetting after sight's return on the target - which is a technique that's not designed for any follow-up speed shooting at all.

So you like the long trigger as a safety thing. That can be cured with training to keep your finger off the trigger when your not about to fire. That is what it comes down to. All these crap triggers are simply compromises for a percieved safety need vs dealing with the training issues. As for slapping vs riding to the sear both can work. Rob Leatham a championship shooter comes totally off the trigger between shots. Others ride the sear. What matters is hits on target. That said triggers that are lighter and with less pre-travel and shorter resets are those that the winners use. As for riding the sear yes you can shoot very fast that way.
Pat

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 16:03

YVK

11-28-12, 17:03

Why not list the positives and negatives of the pistols on the OP's list, and have enough faith in his intelligence to let him make up his own mind on what is important to him?

Mainly because people disagree with what constitutes positive vs negative, and to what extent each one feature and trait matter, see above back and forth between me and Pat. So, if I went with a conventional wisdom as I did, paid 500 bucks to have a shortened reset, and found that I likely wasted 500 bucks - why would I not let OP know that I found a perceived negative to be a non-issue? This is quite a bit different than being a brand fanboy and writing off any limitations just out of loyalty. Of course, challenging conventional wisdom invariably gets predictable responses, and thread derails ensue.

S. Galbraith

11-28-12, 17:53

balance

11-28-12, 17:58

Mainly because people disagree with what constitutes positive vs negative, and to what extent each one feature and trait matter, see above back and forth between me and Pat. So, if I went with a conventional wisdom as I did, paid 500 bucks to have a shortened reset, and found that I likely wasted 500 bucks - why would I not let OP know that I found a perceived negative to be a non-issue? This is quite a bit different than being a brand fanboy and writing off any limitations just out of loyalty. Of course, challenging conventional wisdom invariably gets predictable responses, and thread derails ensue.

You make some good points, and I agree with sharing information that you find to be true.

But I think conventional wisdom becomes conventional wisdom for a reason. If the majority of people complain about this characteristic of this pistol, it could be considered a negative for the majority of people, and if the majority of people glorify that characteristic of that pistol, it could be considered a positive for the majority of people.

In the end everyone will have to make up their own mind and find what works for them, then look for what products fit them the best given the choices available.

brushy bill

11-28-12, 18:25

Do I really have to break it down for you? My point was that not all pistols fights are at close range as the person I responded to was implying. Having a shorter trigger reset makes you better able to respond with repeat shots quickly and accurately. The Airman (soldier same difference in the grand scheme of things) fired several rounds so repeat shots were a factor. By some peoples logic he would have done just as well with a DAO Beretta.
Pat

You missed the point Pat. The reset of SrA Brown's M9 did not stop him from ending the assault. You missed the point on the service affilation as well. Some are proud of their service affilation and I don't think it's too much trouble to get it right instead of "same difference" when it's pointed out. If you don't care about details, why sweat the guns stuff. There all the same in the grand scheme of things...right?

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 18:45

You missed the point Pat. The reset of SrA Brown's M9 did not stop him from ending the assault. You missed the point on the service affilation as well. Some are proud of their service affilation and I don't think it's too much trouble to get it right instead of "same difference" when it's pointed out. If you don't care about details, why sweat the guns stuff. There all the same in the grand scheme of things...right?

I believe members of any branch of the armed forces have a right to be equally proud. Soldier is a generic term to describe all members of the armed forces. Not that it matters but one of the officers I supervise was working as a medic on the day of the shooting and responded to it. He was in the Airforce at the time. Further more I brought that shooting up to illistrate that not all shootings occure at close range. Your whole post is a red herring. Basically it did not matter rather the person in question was in the Airforce or the Army or Navy. That was not the point. One thing I can say for sure it was good that the person in question was armed with a 9mm pistol vs a .22 caliber handgun.
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

11-28-12, 22:31

Alaskapopo

11-28-12, 23:37

If I remember correctly. He was.

Negative the military has never issued the DAO version of the Beretta 92. The M9 is DA SA design.
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

11-28-12, 23:39

Negative the military has never issued the DAO version of the Beretta 92. The M9 is DA SA design.
Pat

Derp. I meant to edit out the DAO part. Thanks for the correction.

Alaskapopo

11-29-12, 00:14

Derp. I meant to edit out the DAO part. Thanks for the correction.

No worries. I am not saying a short trigger reset trumps all other factors but a good trigger can go a long way towards increasing your hit potential under stress. A good trigger in my mind is one with not a lot of pre travel a quick reset and a pull weight on a duty style handgun of around 4 to 5 pounds.
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

11-29-12, 02:21

No worries. I am not saying a short trigger reset trumps all other factors but a good trigger can go a long way towards increasing your hit potential under stress. A good trigger in my mind is one with not a lot of pre travel a quick reset and a pull weight on a duty style handgun of around 4 to 5 pounds.
Pat

I also think that a really short trigger with a heavy weight like 6-7 pounds also feels pretty good. Like a 1911 trigger with a heavier weight.

I wouldn't pick it over a weight like 4.5 (which is ideal) but it does feel kinda nice.

Alaskapopo

11-29-12, 02:28

I also think that a really short trigger with a heavy weight like 6-7 pounds also feels pretty good. Like a 1911 trigger with a heavier weight.

I wouldn't pick it over a weight like 4.5 (which is ideal) but it does feel kinda nice.

I agree pull weight is not as important to me as pull length. I would rather have a 6 pound pull that was crisp and short vs a long and lighter trigger that was 4 pounds like say the Para LDA. (not 4 pounds but you get the idea)
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

11-29-12, 02:31

I agree pull weight is not as important to me as pull length. I would rather have a 6 pound pull that was crisp and short vs a long and lighter trigger that was 4 pounds like say the Para LDA. (not 4 pounds but you get the idea)
Pat

I've actually felt a Para gun that from factory was like 1 lbs. trigger pull. It was scary light, and really mushy, it's reset was almost where the trigger's default position was. If there was a trigger that is absolutely horrid. That was it.

I'm not familiar with Para's LDA system though, what is that?

Alaskapopo

11-29-12, 05:36

I've actually felt a Para gun that from factory was like 1 lbs. trigger pull. It was scary light, and really mushy, it's reset was almost where the trigger's default position was. If there was a trigger that is absolutely horrid. That was it.

I'm not familiar with Para's LDA system though, what is that?

It stands for light double action. They basically pre cock the main spring and the trigger just works against very little tension and you get a long but light pull like a tuned double action revolver.
Pat

Wiggity

11-30-12, 01:17

OP I have owned a lot of HK's and p226's.

I've had a USPc, USP, USP tactical, P30L, P2000, and P2000sk.

As far as sigs go I've owned 4 different P226's.

Out of all these, I shoot the p226 mk25 better than any other pistol I've shot. West German p226's are a close second. The usp's and p30's follow.

HKGuns

12-01-12, 21:27

Newsflash what matters for games namely being fast and accurate also matters in real life.

Second newsflash not all pistol gun fights are at close range. I know of one at 70 yards involving a MP who saved they day by killing an AK armed soldier who went off the deep end and started shooting his fellow soldiers on base. I also know of a Alaska State Trooper shooting at 35 yards.

3rd Newsflash center of mass is not always going to do the job some times you have to take a head shot or a pelvic shot which requires accuracy.

Basically put shot placement is what wins fights anything that makes that harder under the stress of someone trying to kill you is a very bad thing. I have been in a defensive situation although my attacker had fur, teath and claws. I can tell you I was very well I was exactly aware of the gun I was shooting.

Having a shorter trigger reset means you will be able to fire just a bit faster which may or may not save your life. And as a avid shooter of several games I can tell you accuracy is what separates the top shooters from those that are just mediocure. Sure you need to be fast too but you can't miss your way to winning.

Now I am not saying trigger reset is the only factor to consider but it is a factor.
Pat

Newsflash: If you're in anything other than a "game" you're not going to notice the reset. "Long distance pistol fights?" - Now you're just making crap up to support your argument. If you're faced with a pistol fight at 70 yards you better run instead. But I'm sure you have a scenario all ready to go where running isn't an option.

Alaskapopo

12-01-12, 22:21

Newsflash: If you're in anything other than a "game" you're not going to notice the reset. "Long distance pistol fights?" - Now you're just making crap up to support your argument. If you're faced with a pistol fight at 70 yards you better run instead. But I'm sure you have a scenario all ready to go where running isn't an option.

STORY BELOW>

Asignificant event at Fairchild occurred on June 20, 1994 when Dean Mellberg, an ex-Air Force member, entered the base hospital, shot and killed five people and wounded many others. Mellberg had been discharged from Cannon AFB, NM, for the same psychological reason that psychologists Maj. Thomas Brigham and Captain Alan London at Fairchild AFB found. Airman Mellberg was transferred to Wilford Hall Medical Center at Lackland AFB for further psychological examination and, with Congressional pressure brought by Melberg's mother, was found to be fit for military service. Airman Melburg was reassigned to Cannon Air Force Base where similar events led to him being returned to psychologists for evaluation. He was discharged from Cannon AFB for being unfit for military service. He traveled to the town of Airway Heights just outside of Fairchild AFB where he purchased weapons and planned his revenge on the psychologists that had caused his ousting. (Information was provided by a former Air Force member with direct knowledge of events.) At the time of the shooting, Fairchild's hospital was an ungated facility. The gunman, armed with a Chinese-made MAK-90, an AK-47 clone,[5] entered the office of Brigham and London and killed both men. Mellberg continued to move through the hospital, injuring and killing several people, including 8-year-old Christin McCarron. The gunman then walked out of the building into the parking lot, where after killing Anita Lindner, was confronted by a security policeman, Senior Airman Andy Brown. From approximately 70 yards away, Brown ordered Mellberg to drop his weapon. After Mellberg refused, from a kneeling position Brown fired four shots from his 9mm pistol, two rounds hitting the perpetrator in the head and shoulder, killing him.[6] After an investigation it was concluded that Airman Brown was justified in his actions, saving countless lives, and was awarded the Airman's Medal by President Clinton.

Before you call someone out make sure you know what you're talking about.

Thankfully Senior Airman Andy Brown did the right thing and stopped the fight. He did not run off like a coward as you suggested anyone do when faced with a long range threat.

We can debate the merits of trigger pulls, guns etc. But you don't call someone a liar because they disagree with you.
By the way besides just shooting games I have had to use a gun to save my own life. What the heck have you done that gives you the ability to make such statements.

Furthermore hitting with a pistol at even 100 yards is no trick and if you were in a gun fight with me and started running away at 70 yards you would just become an far easier target to hit. Your training should include long range shots because people are faced with them from time to time in real life. Do you think that the bullets just fall harmlessly to the ground past 70 yards?

Pat

AJD

12-02-12, 09:14

What pistol was Andy Brown using? M9?
Missed it above and looked it up. Thanks.

HKGuns

12-02-12, 11:07

STORY BELOW>

Just as I predicted. :)

HKGuns

12-02-12, 11:21

I can tell what pistols people prefer to use by hearing which negative aspects of pistols they are trying to downplay.

"triggers don't matter" = H&K fan.
"muzzle flip makes no difference" = Walther fan
"grips don't matter" = Glock fan

No you can't.....but you're right, there is no perfect pistol, which is why it is silly to have these conversations.

I happen to own a lot of different branded pistols: HK - S&W - Ruger - FN - RIA - SA - Walther - Keltec - I own more S&W revolvers than any other single brand, so go figure. I've shot even more brands over the years.

Saying muzzle flip = Walther "fan" just shows you've not shot a 4" S&W .44 Magnum or any of the hundred other pistols with more muzzle flip than the Walther.

ozy

12-02-12, 11:28

Op, had the p30 in 9mm as well as the p200sk. fine guns by all accounts. now i have gone deep into SIGland ,and much prefer the 226elite platform to the hk's.
the hks are gone and i don't miss them. To my prefernces, the sig are much better in every facet.

El Cid

12-02-12, 11:52

Soldier is a generic term to describe all members of the armed forces.
Pat

No, it's not. We have Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines. Using the term "soldier" for us all is something routinely seen from the media and politicians - people who don't know better and don't care to understand. Service member is universal. Soldier specifically refers to the Army.

OP, I like HK over Sig for quality control and reliability reasons. That said I would not spend $500 on a trigger job. If you shoot the Sig that much better I'd say get it. Just try to find one made in Germany.

Alaskapopo

12-02-12, 22:20

Just as I predicted. :)

You called me a liar by saying I was making the story up. I showed you the actual article and you still have not appolgized. You sound like some 18 year old kid that gets his knowledge about guns from playing video games. You need to grow up until you do welcome to the ignore list.

This message is hidden because HKGuns is on your ignore list.

Ahh nice
Pat

Alaskapopo

12-02-12, 22:22

What pistol was Andy Brown using? M9?
Missed it above and looked it up. Thanks.

That is what the security police in the Airforce are issued.
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

12-02-12, 22:28

That is what the security police in the Airforce are issued.
Pat

I thought some of them were issued the SIG P228 (M11) as well? (Or am I thinking Army/Marines Military Police?)

Alaskapopo

12-02-12, 22:31

I thought some of them were issued the SIG P228 (M11) as well? (Or am I thinking Army/Marines Military Police?)

That is CID. Their criminal investigation units. I believe Naval pilots are also issued the M11.
Pat

Magic_Salad0892

12-02-12, 22:36

That is CID. Their criminal investigation units. I believe Naval pilots are also issued the M11.
Pat

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

(Also, just because you mentioned pilots, I'll throw in that the Air Force bought a bunch of G19s to issue pilots.)

Alaskapopo

12-02-12, 22:51

No, it's not. We have Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines. Using the term "soldier" for us all is something routinely seen from the media and politicians - people who don't know better and don't care to understand. Service member is universal. Soldier specifically refers to the Army.

OP, I like HK over Sig for quality control and reliability reasons. That said I would not spend $500 on a trigger job. If you shoot the Sig that much better I'd say get it. Just try to find one made in Germany.

I appologize for using incorrect terminolgy.
Pat

Blayglock

12-02-12, 23:05

Keep HK & send to Gray Guns.

balance

12-03-12, 09:03

No you can't.....but you're right, there is no perfect pistol, which is why it is silly to have these conversations.

I happen to own a lot of different branded pistols: HK - S&W - Ruger - FN - RIA - SA - Walther - Keltec - I own more S&W revolvers than any other single brand, so go figure. I've shot even more brands over the years.

But I'm sure you have your preferences on which pistols you trust most or choose to carry.

When guessing what people's preferences are in pistols before they actually say what they prefer, I find that I'm usually right using that method.

Saying muzzle flip = Walther "fan" just shows you've not shot a 4" S&W .44 Magnum or any of the hundred other pistols with more muzzle flip than the Walther.

S&W fans that shoot .44 Magnum don't try to downplay muzzle flip as if it doesn't make a difference in speed and accuracy. Just because a .500 S&W has a harsher recoil impulse than a .44 Magnum, doesn't mean the recoil on the .44 Magnum is not worth mentioning.

I carry a PPQ. It does have more flip than other similarly sized polymer pistols in the same caliber. I guess the grip, trigger, and familiarity make up for this because I shoot it better than the other similarly sized polymer pistols in the same caliber that I've tried.

I see room for improvement in my carry pistol. If someone out there doesn't see room for improvement in the trigger of an H&K, or the grip of a Glock, I, personally, would consider them a "fan".

YVK

12-03-12, 19:43

If someone out there doesn't see room for improvement in the trigger of an H&K, or the grip of a Glock, I, personally, would consider them a "fan".

While I agree with a general premise of being able to critique things without emotional attachment, some consider this particular attribute an important positive feature. Check out Bob Vogel's website and you'll find a little explanation in this regard. There are others who give different reasons.

I point this out is to reemphasize what I said before: people disagree fundamentally on what's positive feature, what's negative, what makes no difference etc. Reread the part of your post I quoted: it conveys an absolute statement that specific feature is suboptimal, and those who disagree with you are fanboys in your eyes. Yet here is a national championship winner, probably the best stock pistol shooter in the world, who thinks otherwise.

Absolute statements and dogmatic positions are good for one thing only: they are really fun to challenge and prove to be far from absolute.

balance

12-03-12, 20:40

I point this out is to reemphasize what I said before: people disagree fundamentally on what's positive feature, what's negative, what makes no difference etc. Reread the part of your post I quoted: it conveys an absolute statement that specific feature is suboptimal, and those who disagree with you are fanboys in your eyes. Yet here is a national championship winner, probably the best stock pistol shooter in the world, who thinks otherwise.

Absolute statements and dogmatic positions are good for one thing only: they are really fun to challenge and prove to be far from absolute.

You're right.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that someone could actually like these features and think of them as being good, as I see them as the pistol's worst attribute.

Magic_Salad0892

12-03-12, 20:59

You're right.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that someone could actually like these features and think of them as being good, as I see them as the pistol's worst attribute.

Nope. That would be the extractor.

BTW: I'm super-curious as to how DocGKR broke a Grip Force Adapter. In his AAR for that Robert Vogel class, he only said it broke. Not how, or where it broke.

balance

12-03-12, 21:03

Nope. That would be the extractor.

:D

Nice.

ozy

12-07-12, 16:38

Back to the op's original question---
i had a couple of hks- 2 p30s and a p200sk. nice pistols but horrible triggers ,and sub-par c/s. sold them and repalced with walthers ,khars and finally glocks. on a whim , i got a Sig 229 oafter trying one at the range- great pistol!
since then, i added 6 more sigs and enjoy the heck out of them.
good trigger, easy to shoot well with them, and a joy to own.

HKGuns

12-07-12, 22:03

You called me a liar by saying I was making the story up. I showed you the actual article and you still have not appolgized. You sound like some 18 year old kid that gets his knowledge about guns from playing video games. You need to grow up until you do welcome to the ignore list.

This message is hidden because HKGuns is on your ignore list.

Ahh nice
Pat

Called you a Liar? Hardly! I predicted your response and you need to seriously consider thickening that skin up a bit.

Not going to apologize either......and until you respect that others can have an opinion different than yours without expecting an apology you can sit in my ignore list as well.

Oh and I'm a far cry from 18. I'm a vet who served in the 80's, so try again on both of those counts. You can do the math.

This message is hidden because Alaskapopo is on your ignore list. Happy now?