View Full Version : So Blu-Ray isn't all that?
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 11:14
Some background: the TV took a crap last Friday. Thought I'd take advantage of some sales and get a new flat screen.
Lo and behold, I found out that my old vacuum-picture-tube TV was not only obsolete, but also the DVD player hooked up to it. Seems they use HDMI connections now.
So I bought a $70 Blu-Ray/DVD player on a whim.
I spent the rest of the day browsing stores, and later websites, for Blu-Ray discs. I even looked at a site that has adult videos just for shits and giggles.
It looks to me like there isn't really that much on Blu-Ray that you can't get more of on DVD.
I was tempted to order the double disc Blu-Ray of Platoon, but I haven't yet. I was amazed at the number of Blu-Ray titles on Amazon that seemed to be marked down. I did find Broken Arrow in a store's bargain bin along with Cloverfield, so I picked those up.
If I'd bought a Blu-Ray player for the porn, I'd be one disappointed puppy, cuz there ain't shit out there that I can see.
Luckily I'm not into that genre that much. I'm surprised at the number of mainstream titles marked way down though.
Is the format not doing that well?
If Blu-Ray is the same price or within a dollar of the DVD I will get Blu-Ray. I only pay extra for the Blu-Ray when it really matters. Movies like Avatar need to be in HD, but I am not going to pay extra for the Blu-Ray version of Dumb and Dumber.
If Blu-Ray is the same price or within a dollar of the DVD I will get Blu-Ray. I only pay extra for the Blu-Ray when it really matters. Movies like Avatar need to be in HD, but I am not going to pay extra for the Blu-Ray version of Dumb and Dumber.
I agree with this.
I think this is probably more differentiated but I tried to save a few bucks ordering a "Standard Definition" version of "They Grey" on demand through Time Warner Cable instead of the HD version. I figured that movie would be more about action than visual amazement. It looked terrible the whole movie and felt like I was wearing smudged eye glasses the whole time. Never again.
Doc Glockster,
Question for you. Did you buy a 720p or 1080p "High Definition" flat screen?
Why? There's a huge difference. If it's a 720p TV, you won't get that much more out of Blu-ray than your old TV, but if it's a 1080p TV, there are marked differences.
Even though 720p is technically HD, it isn't going to take full advantage of Blu-Ray the way a 1080p TV will. I haven't even started on refresh rates yet. hehe. :D
I would NEVER buy a flat screen that didn't have RCA, Component, Cable and HDMI connections.
Some background: the TV took a crap last Friday. Thought I'd take advantage of some sales and get a new flat screen.
Lo and behold, I found out that my old vacuum-picture-tube TV was not only obsolete, but also the DVD player hooked up to it. Seems they use HDMI connections now.
So I bought a $70 Blu-Ray/DVD player on a whim.
I spent the rest of the day browsing stores, and later websites, for Blu-Ray discs. I even looked at a site that has adult videos just for shits and giggles.
It looks to me like there isn't really that much on Blu-Ray that you can't get more of on DVD.
I was tempted to order the double disc Blu-Ray of Platoon, but I haven't yet. I was amazed at the number of Blu-Ray titles on Amazon that seemed to be marked down. I did find Broken Arrow in a store's bargain bin along with Cloverfield, so I picked those up.
If I'd bought a Blu-Ray player for the porn, I'd be one disappointed puppy, cuz there ain't shit out there that I can see.
Luckily I'm not into that genre that much. I'm surprised at the number of mainstream titles marked way down though.
Is the format not doing that well?
Not sure how the rental/sales are doing, but the format looks like it will endure. Most modern movies can be found in BR. Many movies not even made in HD are on BR and wont really benefit from it (leading some to left confused as to what the difference is) and many people's TVs neither large enough or true HD (1080p) to notice any real difference, nor their audio good enough to notice the improvements in fidelity.
Most people are more then happy with standard DVD. However, on a good TV that's big enough (50" or above as a rule) coupled with a good audio set up, on a modern movie that was made in HD, it's a HUGE difference, and if one really enjoys movies, worth it.
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 13:00
I would NEVER buy a flat screen that didn't have RCA, Component, Cable and HDMI connections.
It's got enough RCA jacks for either the DVD player or the satellite box, but not both.
I was told by a Best Buy employee that the HDMI connections are pretty much the norm for DVD players now.
For $70, I thought "what the Hell" I'll get the Blu-Ray player and retire the old beast.
What really surprises me is the local stores at least have rows and rows of DVD's and one little tiny section for Blu-Rays.
And forget about finding "Swedish Erotica" on Blu Ray (LOL).
It's got enough RCA jacks for either the DVD player or the satellite box, but not both.
I was told by a Best Buy employee that the HDMI connections are pretty much the norm for DVD players now.
For $70, I thought "what the Hell" I'll get the Blu-Ray player and retire the old beast.
What really surprises me is the local stores at least have rows and rows of DVD's and one little tiny section for Blu-Rays.
And forget about finding "Swedish Erotica" on Blu Ray (LOL).
Similar to taking advice from people who work at guns stores about guns or those who work at GNC about supplements. End well it will not.. :nono:
But yes, most consumer grade electronics are going to be plug and play HDMI as USB is to comps. Works fine, but some prefer to use other cables.
Similar to taking advice from people who work at guns stores about guns or those who work at GNC about supplements. End well it will not.. :nono:
But yes, most consumer grade electronics are going to be plug and play HDMI as USB is to comps. Works fine, but some prefer to use other cables.
Unfortunately, RCA cables don't have the thru-put that HDMI has, so you do lose a little there. That being said, don't let them oversell you on Monster cables. There's a CD Net review measuring impedance across a range of HDMI cables and the Monster cables were marginally better for three times the price.
Like you mentioned Will, unless you have the components to take full advantage, it's a nil point.
I just scored a 60" LED 1080p and am going to order either a Bose or Sony 7.1 surround sound system to go with it once I head over to the Bose store to feel out if the price difference is worth it (x2.5 over the Sony)
GeorgiaBoy
11-27-12, 15:07
Many movies not even made in HD are on BR and wont really benefit from it (leading some to left confused as to what the difference is) and many people's TVs neither large enough or true HD (1080p) to notice any real difference, nor their audio good enough to notice the improvements in fidelity.
I've seen some older movies that definitely weren't shot on HD but look fantastic on Blu-Ray... Both Godfather and Black Hawk Down really come to mind.
In BHD you can count the hair follicles on shaven people's faces... :eek:
But I'm watching it on a high dollar BluRay player with a Samsung 1080P 46" Plasma... so I guess it can differ. Cheaper TV's don't have as good of HD.
It's got enough RCA jacks for either the DVD player or the satellite box, but not both.
Here you go.
http://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-video-Audio-HDMI-Converter/dp/B003NS0UUQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354051000&sr=8-1&keywords=rca+to+hdmi+converter
All I know is I have 10,000+ DVDs and I'm not changing to ANYTHING even if it did exist. Right now both Blu Ray or HD DVD are almost like Laserdisc given title availability.
It's bad enough that I had to basically dispose of a voluminous VHS collection. Thankfully many of them are now pretty rare and I was able to sell them on Amazon for a decent price rather than just toss them.
And thank god TCM shows a lot of rare films and I have a 1080 DVD recorder.
I've also got a couple thousand LPs and 12" singles from my DJ days and more cassette tapes than I care to think about. One day I will need to covert those cassette tapes to digital format so I can unload them as well.
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 15:42
Right now both Blu Ray or HD DVD are almost like Laserdisc given title availability.
Been there. Done that too. I was "that guy" who bought a laser disc player and within a year something new called the "DVD" came out. Laser discs were horrible: $40-50 each; deluxe editions $100 each. They would show flaws in the picture if they got even a tiny scratch. I'd swear they probably would warp like LP records. I only had about five movies. Anybody want to buy a lightly used laserdisc player?
It's funny, but when I got a DVD player as soon as they came out, I'd search stores that hadn't even decided to carry them yet. One guy at a rental place told me, "Well, we probably won't carry them until we know the format is going to succeed." A year later they had gotten rid of literally every VHS tape in the place.
It's bad enough that I had to basically dispose of a voluminous VHS collection. Thankfully many of them are now pretty rare and I was able to sell them on Amazon for a decent price rather than just toss them.
I lucked out in the sense that I only had about ten tapes I "owned" and the rest were rented as needed.
EDITED TO ADD: I take that back. I had all of the original Star Trek episodes on VHS, plus the movies. Luckily I sold them to a Star Trek nut for pretty close to what I paid for them.
A buddy of mine still--and I mean still--has more VHS tapes than DVD's. He constantly struggles to repair or replace his equipment. VHS machines are becoming the Eight-tracks of the modern era.
I've also got a couple thousand LPs and 12" singles from my DJ days and more cassette tapes than I care to think about. One day I will need to covert those cassette tapes to digital format so I can unload them as well.
When in college I was the first person I knew in this town to own a DVD player. No remote control IIRC. It was about $400 in 1983 to basically just play discs. You couldn't even program the songs you wanted to play in any order: they had to be programmed to play in the order they appeared on the disc.
About three years later I got one that would just about cook breakfast for you and only paid about a third the price.
LP's were like VHS tapes to me: I never had that many and it was no great loss to switch to CD's. I've got a lot of rare CD's now: out of print stuff, rare pressings, collectors' editions. When you know you've got one of 5,000 of a CD pressed on a French label designed to introduce an obscure band to the public, you know you've got something irreplaceable.
Now I live in fear that CD's are becoming eight-track tapes and I won't even be able to buy a replacement CD player in ten years. But they said that about LP's too.
Thing is: I think LP's really do sound better than most CD's. Maybe it's just the hearing damage "coloring" the sound or something. I also think mono sounds better than stereo.
If I can ever get around to converting all my CD's to a single storage medium or something I'll probably call it a day as far as collecting new music.
Belmont31R
11-27-12, 16:02
Older movies won't benefit from BR because they were probably not shot in a high enough definition to make a difference.
Newer stuff is shot in high enough quality that there is quite a difference between DVD and BR. I bought Game of Thrones in BR, and it's crazy how much better it is on a new 55" Samsung LED than DVD on a 5-6 year old Sony 1080P LCD.
Not sure where you guys are shopping...but Walmart, BB, and Fry's all have good sized BR sections. I usually get stuff off Amazon, though.
Why are you guys still using old fashioned cables? If your TV has HDMI...it's the best option. Both our cable box and PS3 use it. HDMI cables are very cheap these days. It's a digital signal so there is VERY LITTLE difference between any of them. Not enough for someone to notice. Basically the signal either gets there or it doesn't. It's not like analog where cable quality can make a difference. You can run a digital signal through a coat hanger, and people won't be able to notice. Monster Cables are way over priced, and stores push them because they have huge markups. Some chump buys a $2k dollar TV, and then the salesman pushes them to buy a Monster cable to 'take advantage of the new TV' they just bought. If a store can make an extra 50 bucks on a cable it can increase their profit on the sale by quite a bit.
When in college I was the first person I knew in this town to own a DVD player. No remote control IIRC. It was about $400 in 1983 to basically just play discs. You couldn't even program the songs you wanted to play in any order: they had to be programmed to play in the order they appeared on the disc.
About three years later I got one that would just about cook breakfast for you and only paid about a third the price.
LP's were like VHS tapes to me: I never had that many and it was no great loss to switch to CD's. I've got a lot of rare CD's now: out of print stuff, rare pressings, collectors' editions. When you know you've got one of 5,000 of a CD pressed on a French label designed to introduce an obscure band to the public, you know you've got something irreplaceable.
Now I live in fear that CD's are becoming eight-track tapes and I won't even be able to buy a replacement CD player in ten years. But they said that about LP's too.
Thing is: I think LP's really do sound better than most CD's. Maybe it's just the hearing damage "coloring" the sound or something. I also think mono sounds better than stereo.
If I can ever get around to converting all my CD's to a single storage medium or something I'll probably call it a day as far as collecting new music.
It's funny, I mostly skipped CDs altogether. I stayed with LPs long enough to transition to mp3s. I think I only ever bought about a dozen CDs. This doesn't count the ones I burned myself of course.
As far as CD players go, you do realize that pretty much every DVD player is also a CD player right?
Why are you guys still using old fashioned cables? If your TV has HDMI...it's the best option. Both our cable box and PS3 use it. HDMI cables are very cheap these days. It's a digital signal so there is VERY LITTLE difference between any of them. Not enough for someone to notice. Basically the signal either gets there or it doesn't. It's not like analog where cable quality can make a difference. You can run a digital signal through a coat hanger, and people won't be able to notice. Monster Cables are way over priced, and stores push them because they have huge markups. Some chump buys a $2k dollar TV, and then the salesman pushes them to buy a Monster cable to 'take advantage of the new TV' they just bought. If a store can make an extra 50 bucks on a cable it can increase their profit on the sale by quite a bit.
Because I have several things hooked up to my TV and many of them don't have a HDMI cable. And as you stated "signal either gets there or it doesn't."
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 16:24
As far as CD players go, you do realize that pretty much every DVD player is also a CD player right?
Yes, but I'm old school and I like free-standing stereo's, ghetto blasters, or stereo systems.
I've never had a TV hooked up to a stereo system and vice versa.
I switched to CD's because I hated the way LP's would collect scratches and pops as they aged.
CD's were supposed to be almost indestructible (HA!) and would absorb a few scratches without affecting the music.
I saw a show on the history channel that some of the early CD's were made from materials that might only last a few years under certain conditions. They showed some CD's subjected to those conditions being a total loss.
Later ones were and are better, but that was certainly eye opening.
It sort of defeats one of the major selling points of CD's to begin with.
I store mine carefully and check them for deterioration every couple of years. So far they are all good to go. I've got CD's from the 1980's that are so far out of print that you can't even find used copies on eBay.
Old movies were shot on film, which is much higher resolution than 1080. The problem is studios may skimp on the transfer or restoration, etc. If they do it right the movies look great.
A good place to buy cables is monoprice.com.
IMHO you need to get a new BluRay player that can do netflix
quite a few movies are just there for the free streaming and you get one dvd rental at a time for $10 a month
ton of streaming stuff even rentals ! no going to the store etc..
only time I like discs are if they have great special features and I really liked the movie ! very rare anymore !
to me dics are close to dead and streaming is where its at ! I dont bother with discs to much have a pretty nice HT setup all movies are streamed or on my HDD and use a program called Plex
same for TVs combination of sickbeard and plex :) dont have to tivo and skip commercials anymore
just play the show no commercials all in HD ;)
sickbeard plex takes base computer ability though :) its easy just a couple steps you have to do
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 16:29
That's another thing I forgot to mention: I think movies shot on film look better than those shot on video tape or digitally.
There's something about the grainy, warm quality of film that I like.
One reason I don't care anything about adult movies anymore is that you have to go back the seventies and early eighties to see one shot on film.
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 16:32
IMHO you need to get a new BluRay player that can do netflix
quite a few movies are just there for the free streaming and you get one dvd rental at a time for $10 a month
ton of streaming stuff even rentals ! no going to the store etc..
only time I like discs are if they have great special features and I really liked the movie ! very rare anymore !
to me dics are close to dead and streaming is where its at ! I dont bother with discs to much have a pretty nice HT setup all movies are streamed or on my HDD and use a program called Plex
same for TVs combination of sickbeard and plex :) dont have to tivo and skip commercials anymore
just play the show no commercials all in HD ;)
sickbeard plex takes base computer ability though :) its easy just a couple steps you have to do
All this is above my head.
I just barely have DSL on my computer and know nothing about receiving videos through the internet to the TV.
Unfortunately, RCA cables don't have the thru-put that HDMI has, so you do lose a little there. That being said, don't let them oversell you on Monster cables. There's a CD Net review measuring impedance across a range of HDMI cables and the Monster cables were marginally better for three times the price.
Like you mentioned Will, unless you have the components to take full advantage, it's a nil point.
Like thus ;)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/11808-2stereosetup.jpg
I just scored a 60" LED 1080p and am going to order either a Bose or Sony 7.1 surround sound system to go with it once I head over to the Bose store to feel out if the price difference is worth it (x2.5 over the Sony)
Bro, Bose is the Kimber/BushMaster of the audio world and far better stuff exists for the same $$$ or less. Find the nearest Paradigm dealer and get a home theater package from them. Paradigm is a Canadian company that makes the best audio speakers for the $$$ bar none and they'll have something similar cost to the Bose:
http://www.paradigm.com/
Do not buy any audio speakers from a box store period.
Aren't those B&W speakers in the pic?
IMHO you need to get a new BluRay player that can do netflix
I have not looked in a while, but is the download full BL 1080p and full fidelity? It was not before as the transit time too long and the file size too large. HD can be much lower quality then actual BL and still be HD. If that's changed, might look into that myself.
Netflix downloads look pretty good. Not BD, but like a good DVD. And no lossless, but they do have DD 5.1.
Aren't those B&W speakers in the pic?
Yes, 803D, but my advice was based on cost of Bose not top O the line B&W. BTW, sold the 803D's recently as i wanted to downsize a bit and the extra $$ came in handy:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/DSC06345.jpg
Very happy with what I have now.
Netflix downloads look pretty good. Not BD, but like a good DVD. And no lossless, but they do have DD 5.1.
OK, that's what I thought. Some day that too will change, but until then, I'll continue to order by BL via the NetFlix snail mail service.
You ever listen to Focal speakers?
Bro, Bose is the Kimber/BushMaster of the audio world and far better stuff exists for the same $$$ or less. Find the nearest Paradigm dealer and get a home theater package from them. Paradigm is a Canadian company that makes the best audio speakers for the $$$ bar none and they'll have something similar cost to the Bose:
http://www.paradigm.com/
Do not buy any audio speakers from a box store period.
Thanks for the advise. I've researched TV's so much I can quote shit on demand, but audio equipment... not so much. That'll be another couple of months so the wifeoid doesn't get pissed. :D
You ever listen to Focal speakers?
I have. They have a sound people either love or hate and that's due to the Beryllium tweaters that has a very unique sound. Personally, I think the diamond tweater (hence the "D" designation) of the B&W is far better to my ears then the Beryllium sound of the Focals. Two, I think B&W is a far better deal for the $$$ then the Focals, but that's me.
Thanks for the advise. I've researched TV's so much I can quote shit on demand, but audio equipment... not so much. That'll be another couple of months so the wifeoid doesn't get pissed. :D
Big box stores are GTG for TVs, but not for audio, even at equiv $$ as a rule. For similar, or slightly more $$ (think BM vs Noveske here) you can get much better audio if you know what to get.
to me dics are close to dead and streaming is where its at ! I dont bother with discs to much have a pretty nice HT setup all movies are streamed or on my HDD and use a program called Plex
For some stuff like last years summer blockbuster or the recent installment of Twilight I agree. But for serious movie collectors there is so much out there that simply "isn't available" from any source and there is nothing quite like owning your own copy.
I wish data storage go to the point where something like a 100,000 GIG drive was as cost effective as a DVD player. I could then dump my entire library on that drive and have a few backups. But we aren't quite there yet.
Doc Safari
11-27-12, 17:08
I wish data storage go to the point where something like a 100,000 GIG drive was as cost effective as a DVD player. I could then dump my entire library on that drive and have a few backups. But we aren't quite there yet.
I think this is the future. For $1,000 you can own up to 1,000 movies on your drive or some happy horseshit.
Imagine ordering a "package" where you get all the Star Wars, Jurassic Park, John Wayne, Harryhausen, film noir....whatever combination you want.....and it takes only seconds to download.
I have. They have a sound people either love or hate and that's due to the Beryllium tweaters that has a very unique sound. Personally, I think the diamond tweater (hence the "D" designation) of the B&W is far better to my ears then the Beryllium sound of the Focals. Two, I think B&W is a far better deal for the $$$ then the Focals, but that's me.
I haven't listened to B&W in probably 15 years. How long have they had the diamond tweeter?
I think this is the future. For $1,000 you can own up to 1,000 movies on your drive or some happy horseshit.
Imagine ordering a "package" where you get all the Star Wars, Jurassic Park, John Wayne, Harryhausen, film noir....whatever combination you want.....and it takes only seconds to download.
When we get to the point where I can put 20,000 movies on a drive for $500 I'll look into it. Keep in mind I will need more than one to backup against drive failures. Right now if my computer or DVR crashes, I still have all my DVDs.
Until that time I own the DVDs and can resell them for much more than $1 each.
I haven't listened to B&W in probably 15 years. How long have they had the diamond tweeter?
Maybe 3-4 years there abouts I think. Read some reviews online, they 800 series B&W (all of which now have the diamond tweeter I recall) set a new standard for fidelity to $$$ ratio I'd say. When you look at the cost of the 803D (what I had) or the 802D, to the sound and tech, build quality, resale value, etc, I can't think of anything that comes even close.
However, their new technology is stuffed into their little PM1 speakers, which is what I have now pictured above. Mind boggling sound from a speaker that small.
Belmont31R
11-27-12, 18:17
Because I have several things hooked up to my TV and many of them don't have a HDMI cable. And as you stated "signal either gets there or it doesn't."
Well if you're using older equipment you can't expect newer stuff to be compatible with it forever. Our older TV was bought in 2007, and has HDMI. It was around for a while before that.
Belmont31R
11-27-12, 18:21
We use Netlfix and Amazon Prime for streaming but I've noticed the audio is pretty crappy. For instance we have to crank the sound way up, and theres a huge disparity in the actual volume between scenes where they are whispering to when action scenes happen. We have to crank it way up to hear conversations but have to turn it down during other scenese. DVD/BR seem to be much better in this regard, and cable TV is also good with sound.
Well if you're using older equipment you can't expect newer stuff to be compatible with it forever. Our older TV was bought in 2007, and has HDMI. It was around for a while before that.
My TV does have HDMI connections, many of the components hooked up to it do not. But thankfully my TV has plenty of shielded jacks and cable in jacks so no problem actually exists.
I have not looked in a while, but is the download full BL 1080p and full fidelity? It was not before as the transit time too long and the file size too large. HD can be much lower quality then actual BL and still be HD. If that's changed, might look into that myself.
No Netflix is just ok stuff but for some its good enough to watch
if you get into paid usenet you can download anything quality wise which is nice 1080 or 720 or actual rips which are large
And of course download speed is key :)
For tv stuff google sickbeard
I can say even h264 can be insane good and small file size :) like 5 gigs for a movie vs 40 gigs for a rip
If you get into usenet but you need a paid account and SABnzbd or something
I started to rip all my movies and decided to go this route instead :)
So I could download what I wanted most I do h264 files stuff I love full rips so I have all the features etc...
My htpc is a mac pro with 12 TB of storage but want to get a mac mini ! Since the mac pro is overkill but I had it around so using it for now
My main audio is NAD amps and PSB speakers with velodyne sub
a nice 120 inch screen and a custom samsung projector by Joe Kane that is insane good color ! And a 50 inch panny plasma for day watching and 42 panny lcd for gaming
For some stuff like last years summer blockbuster or the recent installment of Twilight I agree. But for serious movie collectors there is so much out there that simply "isn't available" from any source and there is nothing quite like owning your own copy.
I wish data storage go to the point where something like a 100,000 GIG drive was as cost effective as a DVD player. I could then dump my entire library on that drive and have a few backups. But we aren't quite there yet.
Agree :) all my criterion collection, band of brothers, pirates of the caribean :) etc...
I own a ton of other stuff
Collectors tins etc...
I have some cool stuff on disc but I watch the rips since they are the same quality and easy to view with plex and I can watch anywhere on any tv in the house etc...
Mentioned in the post above my htpc is 12 tb
Decided not to backup my htpc though I have the discs and can download quicker than I can rip
And some current movies I dont keep around as I wont watch them again
These days with movies I only buy what I love after watching it and know I want it
Moose-Knuckle
11-28-12, 03:06
I'm late to the game but just bought my first blu-ray player on Black Friday for $29.99 and purchased thirty blu-ray movies from both amazon.com and bestbuy.com with free shipping. All of the movies were marked down, most were $3.99.
I'm assuming as with previous media formats that they will continue to come down in price as DVD is phased out.
Blu-ray will continue to get cheaper. It is a good technology however it will also be the last physical media format. Everything is going to digital download. Why have 100 or more disks taking up room in your house when you can have 5 times that number on a hard drive the size of two or 3 Blu-Ray Boxes stacked on top of each other.
As for HDMI and the cables. DO NOT buy monster. Yes there is a huge difference between chap cables and good cables. However monster is a rip off. As long as the cables you get have high enough throughput you don't need to worry about anything else.
Actually all HDMI cables are exactly the same. It transmits a digital not analog signal. It either transmits data or it doesnt, there is no different levels of signal quality like what was found with older analog interfaces. I buy the cheapest HDMI cables I can find, anyone tells you any different is full of shit.
Actually all HDMI cables are exactly the same. It transmits a digital not analog signal. It either transmits data or it doesnt, there is no different levels of signal quality like what was found with older analog interfaces. I buy the cheapest HDMI cables I can find, anyone tells you any different is full of shit.
Actually not completely true.
As we've pointed out, there are some nonsense "speed rating" systems for HDMI cable out there, which exist largely just to adorn the packages containing HDMI cable with up-selling tools for the vendor. Whether it's "Ultra High Speed," or just "Faster 'n' All Get-Out," you can safely ignore these labels--they are completely meaningless. However, there is one important, but limited, sense in which one can meaningfully and accurately talk about "speed ratings" for HDMI cables.
First-generation HDMI cables were designed with 1080i and 720p video in mind, at eight-bit color depth. Both of these resolutions require a clock rate of 74.25 MHz, and 742.5 Mbps per data channel in the HDMI signal, and originally (through HDMI specification 1.2), this is what HDMI cable compliance testing was targeted at. With HDMI specification 1.3, however, the single-link bandwidth limit per data channel was raised to 3.4 Gbps, to accommodate such things as deep color and higher framerates, and from what we've already said above it should be clear that a cable which works fine at 742.5 Mbps will not necessarily work at a data rate which is over four times as fast. To address this issue, HDMI specification 1.3 introduced two "Categories" of HDMI cable, somewhat blandly named "Category 1" and "Category 2." Ever since 1.3, all HDMI cables which are tested for compliance certification are designated either as Category 1, and tested at 742.5 Mbps/channel, or as Category 2, and tested both at 1.65 Gbps (without equalization) and at 3.4 Gbps/channel (with equalization). A cable which has passed Category 2 certification is capable of handling any data rate allowed under the HDMI specification; a cable which has passed Category 1, but not Category 2, is certified capable of handling anything up to 742.5 Mbps/channel, representing conventional 720p or 1080i HD resolutions at their normal framerates and eight-bit color depth.
The "Category 1" and "Category 2" labels for these data-speed tests, not being descriptive, seem to have been a bit confusing for consumers, and accordingly, the HDMI Licensing organization has announced that they should be referred to as "Standard Speed" and "High Speed" instead. Additionally, in response to the deceptive use of bogus vendor "speed ratings," HDMI Licensing has expressly prohibited the use of variants such as "Ultra High Speed" and the like, so that with any luck the only "speeds" being talked about soon will be Standard and High.
Also I can tell you that many cheap cables have problems with 3D devices.
Moose-Knuckle
11-28-12, 20:12
Blu-ray will continue to get cheaper. It is a good technology however it will also be the last physical media format. Everything is going to digital download. Why have 100 or more disks taking up room in your house when you can have 5 times that number on a hard drive the size of two or 3 Blu-Ray Boxes stacked on top of each other.
While I agree with this I'm also the guy who bought the last Metallica album on double LP. ;)
I have several friends who as of a couple of years ago had hundreds of down loaded blu-ray movies on their PC. These guys are computer geeks and don't "pay" for shit. They have all the TVs in the house wired off their network and can watch anything at the touch of a button. I'm just not set up for all that.
As for HDMI and the cables. DO NOT buy monster. Yes there is a huge difference between chap cables and good cables. However monster is a rip off. As long as the cables you get have high enough throughput you don't need to worry about anything else.
Actually all HDMI cables are exactly the same. It transmits a digital not analog signal. It either transmits data or it doesnt, there is no different levels of signal quality like what was found with older analog interfaces. I buy the cheapest HDMI cables I can find, anyone tells you any different is full of shit.
Being new to Blu-ray I had to research a little on the whole HDMI debate. Appearently it gets as heated as .45 vs. 9mm, AR vs. AK, ad nauseum.
So I read this guys review of the cables I was looking at (BlueRigger High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet Supports 3D and Audio Return [Latest Version]) and pulled the trigger on them.
76 of 77 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Great Cables, and I've literally seen most May 25, 2011
By NJScreenwriter
Product Packaging:Retail|Amazon Verified PurchaseSo to begin, I'm a Home Theater Installer. I spent five years with Best Buy both selling and installing TVs. I never got too much into the Monster Cable stuff, as at the end of the day, it's copper wire with covering; I used to sell people the less expensive cables, citing this as the reason. That said, you can judge an HDMI Cable on two (2) things: Pictures Quality, which, for the vast majority, will be absolutely the same, whether the cable costs you $1 or $1,000. This is why people say don't spend more money, and they'd be mostly right. However, the 2nd category that's used to judge HDMI Cables is build quality, and THAT can be a big difference. All build quality really refers to is the head (The gold part you plug into the devices you have), and how it will do considering the rest of the cable is hanging off of it, thus potentially causing it to bend and snap. THIS is why some cables are worth spending more money on. I mean if you don't put it on the wall and hide the wires, it really doesn't matter, as you have easy access. But this is the reason I've stuck with Bluerigger. In my mind, despite the fact that I don't buy Monster, they are the Smart Shoppers Monster Equivalent. I would use them in my own system, and I use them with all of my customers. They make a good product, and they offer it at an amazing price. Buy this cable. The only reason cables cost more at big box stores, for those of you unfamiliar with retail, is that is where they make up the money they lose when they sell you a TV. That's right folks, a $1,000 TV costs the store/company about $850 to $900 to buy, maybe a little less. They make their money on cables and other accessories.
The only place to go for cables, IMO - high quality, low price:
http://www.monoprice.com/
Actually all HDMI cables are exactly the same. It transmits a digital not analog signal. It either transmits data or it doesnt, there is no different levels of signal quality like what was found with older analog interfaces. I buy the cheapest HDMI cables I can find, anyone tells you any different is full of shit.
Not true :) its been proven lots of times
And often spoken by folks who dont own nicer gear !
Like the bushmaster guy never shot anything else but his bushmaster and cheap ammo tells you that fancy gun you paid $2000 for is no better !
Maybe if you have cheap gear and eyes that cant tell or see things !
Sparklies are common on cheap cables
This argument is about as legit as all M4 are the same a bushmaster and Noveske are identical
You do not need to spend a lot but better cables will perform better
The only place to go for cables, IMO - high quality, low price:
http://www.monoprice.com/
Ditto great place to go !
Another is www.bluejeancables.com
Belden and canare speaker cable :)
And make really nice custom cables
The cable thing if you have good ears eyes you can tell the difference but often gear gets in the way
A $100,000 setup is going to be more critical and chances are canare cable will be good enough zip cord wont
Same thing for other cables such as patch cables etc...
$200 esoteric brand fancy ends and wrap same as monster
$100 monster is marketing
$30 monoprice same thing less packaging marketing
$10 walmart crap will get you sparklies most likely or errors
Like guns
take some guys shooting cans in the gravel pit you dont need match ammo !
They seem to hit the cans with regular cheap ammo or match proof match is over rated and cheap crap is just as accurate !
Would you buy this ? i wouldn't :)
Nothing wrong with a $40 bluray fits a niche
Compare it to a $700 one and you will see a difference if its on a good setup
Play it on a $200 walmart flat panel ? Might not see it ?
$3000 pioneer plasma that has been calibrated you will see the difference
Belmont31R
11-29-12, 03:46
Blu-ray will continue to get cheaper. It is a good technology however it will also be the last physical media format. Everything is going to digital download. Why have 100 or more disks taking up room in your house when you can have 5 times that number on a hard drive the size of two or 3 Blu-Ray Boxes stacked on top of each other.
As for HDMI and the cables. DO NOT buy monster. Yes there is a huge difference between chap cables and good cables. However monster is a rip off. As long as the cables you get have high enough throughput you don't need to worry about anything else.
Yup. I hate physical media. Buy my kids a movie, and within a week to a month its trashed, and I hate keeping track of disks.
Streaming/downloads are the way to go. It also reduces cost since they don't have to burn and distribute physical copies.
The PS3 is the only thing in our house that will play a disk right now...
Doc Safari
11-29-12, 09:03
:SIGH:
Why is it every "hobby" seems to require PhD level research to enjoy it?
:rolleyes:
I feel like we need a "chart" for home theater products now.
:SIGH:
Why is it every "hobby" seems to require PhD level research to enjoy it?
:rolleyes:
I feel like we need a "chart" for home theater products now.
Trust me. If you go onto a High end Audiophile forum they will have some analog to the chart. It is the nature of any hobby.
Honestly the only difference is that in our case the real world consequences are more drastic than some distortion in your sound or picture.
:SIGH:
Why is it every "hobby" seems to require PhD level research to enjoy it?
:rolleyes:
I feel like we need a "chart" for home theater products now.
You do. :cool:
montanadave
11-29-12, 13:02
:SIGH:
Why is it every "hobby" seems to require PhD level research to enjoy it?
:rolleyes:
I feel like we need a "chart" for home theater products now.
And even more depressing is the fact that after you figure out you need to do some homework before you buy, spend a few hours actually researching the products so you don't feel like a complete luddite, then go to a brick-and-mortar store to make your purchase you'll find that the sales person knows less than you do about half the time.
Fortunately, the other half of the time the sales person will treat you like a total moron.
And even more depressing is the fact that after you figure out you need to do some homework before you buy, spend a few hours actually researching the products so you don't feel like a complete luddite,
And you can research all you want and end up with outdated tech within weeks to months of the purchase. Some times that matters, some times is does not (unless you were the type of person who has to have the latest greatest tech) but it's always annoying.
:SIGH:
Why is it every "hobby" seems to require PhD level research to enjoy it?
:rolleyes:
I feel like we need a "chart" for home theater products now.
It's easy to get a nice theater setup. Panasonic plasma, Blu ray player, $400-500(or up if you want but you need to start at this level) Yamaha/Onkyo/etc receiver, good 5.1 speaker package(the hardest part and will probably cost more than everything else combined), and a few cables and your done.
Unfortunately, RCA cables don't have the thru-put that HDMI has, so you do lose a little there. That being said, don't let them oversell you on Monster cables. There's a CD Net review measuring impedance across a range of HDMI cables and the Monster cables were marginally better for three times the price.
Like you mentioned Will, unless you have the components to take full advantage, it's a nil point.
I just scored a 60" LED 1080p and am going to order either a Bose or Sony 7.1 surround sound system to go with it once I head over to the Bose store to feel out if the price difference is worth it (x2.5 over the Sony)
Don't buy Bose. Just google Bose reviews. You will find more than enough info why.
Like thus ;)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/11808-2stereosetup.jpg
Bro, Bose is the Kimber/BushMaster of the audio world and far better stuff exists for the same $$$ or less. Find the nearest Paradigm dealer and get a home theater package from them. Paradigm is a Canadian company that makes the best audio speakers for the $$$ bar none and they'll have something similar cost to the Bose:
http://www.paradigm.com/
Do not buy any audio speakers from a box store period.
Very true.
Yes, 803D, but my advice was based on cost of Bose not top O the line B&W. BTW, sold the 803D's recently as i wanted to downsize a bit and the extra $$ came in handy:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/DSC06345.jpg
Very happy with what I have now.
No Netflix is just ok stuff but for some its good enough to watch
if you get into paid usenet you can download anything quality wise which is nice 1080 or 720 or actual rips which are large
And of course download speed is key :)
For tv stuff google sickbeard
I can say even h264 can be insane good and small file size :) like 5 gigs for a movie vs 40 gigs for a rip
If you get into usenet but you need a paid account and SABnzbd or something
I started to rip all my movies and decided to go this route instead :)
So I could download what I wanted most I do h264 files stuff I love full rips so I have all the features etc...
My htpc is a mac pro with 12 TB of storage but want to get a mac mini ! Since the mac pro is overkill but I had it around so using it for now
My main audio is NAD amps and PSB speakers with velodyne sub
a nice 120 inch screen and a custom samsung projector by Joe Kane that is insane good color ! And a 50 inch panny plasma for day watching and 42 panny lcd for gaming
Holly Crap. I need to pull out my google foo and figure out what half those abreviations are! :D What program do you use to rip your videos? My surround sound is all in storage in the basement now. The kids are old enough now that I should pull it out and no longer worry about them pulling the rear surround sound speakers. They don't even make my speakers anymore. Cambridge Soundworks MC300's for my front three and a pair of S300's for my rears and my JBL sub.
Why regular DVD still exist.......... PCs and kids dvd player.
Holly Crap. I need to pull out my google foo and figure out what half those abreviations are! :D What program do you use to rip your videos? My surround sound is all in storage in the basement now. The kids are old enough now that I should pull it out and no longer worry about them pulling the rear surround sound speakers. They don't even make my speakers anymore. Cambridge Soundworks MC300's for my front three and a pair of S300's for my rears and my JBL sub.
I am all mac based so use a program called Mac The Ripper have played with a program called fairmount also and use cocktail which is pretty common
my kids movies I rip and make into H.264 for plex
the reason I do the kids this way is its easy for them to just hit the show and watch it ! no menus no features etc..
then all the DVDs blurays I just recycled the plastic cases and keep the discs in a notebook thing made to hold discs and all the sleeve art stuff is in the back of the notebook
its my case logic :)
other movies I like a lot rip with MTR (mac the ripper) and just keep in VIDEO_TS folder style so I have all the special features etc...
and basically just shows up like a bluray with all the menus etc..
since its non compressed I loose no quality etc..
http://www.plexapp.com/
which is the main interface for all our movies and TV etc..
TV stuff I used to use a tivo box but now do everything with sickbeard and usenet
http://sickbeard.com/
so they just come in and a script tells plex to update new content
no commercials all HD or whatever format you want it in :)
nice thing is you can get past shows so I have all these cool old shows
pretty nice setup for entertainment the nice thing about plex is the interface and ease of use my 3 year old gets around in it ;)
also I can use my iPhone iPad or the keyboard or any of our computers to watch or as a remote for any of the other TVS
It's easy to get a nice theater setup. Panasonic plasma,
Agreed.
Blu ray player, $400-500(or up if you want but you need to start at this level)
Don't even need to spend that much these days, $300-400 there's good stuff.
Yamaha/Onkyo/etc receiver,
That's where I'd spend a tad more, a also consider used gear which may get one into decent stuff. Or, something like a new Dennon processor and used 5 channel amp, and combinations there of.
good 5.1 speaker package(the hardest part and will probably cost more than everything else combined), and a few cables and your done.
Paradigm, PSB, and others make some very respectable stuff as a 5.1 package for the $$$ and shouldn't break the bank and will sound great.
I meant $400-500 for the receiver. ;)
I meant $400-500 for the receiver. ;)
Dat makes more sense.
for a HT setup
receiver speakers & sub something to play discs on and one streaming device like a roku or something
for me the around $2000 total is all kinda in the same boat decent but not a lot of dynamics etc.. and music sounds OK
spend about $5000-$10000 and ya jump into a whole new world of sound
then the next jump is in the $50,000 and up range but you dont notice as much ?
if you can swing $7000 or so you end up with a pretty insane good HT system that can also do music very very well
but not as good as a dedicated $7000 music setup :)
to me its like a car the $2000 system can go 135 MPH which pretty much any car and mini van can do today :)
the $7000 system is like going 180 MPH !
and the $50k system is the 200 MPH
for those that have gone 180 going 200 is not that much different !
but going from 135 to 180 is a totally dif world !!!
for a HT setup
receiver speakers & sub something to play discs on and one streaming device like a roku or something
for me the around $2000 total is all kinda in the same boat decent but not a lot of dynamics etc.. and music sounds OK
spend about $5000-$10000 and ya jump into a whole new world of sound
then the next jump is in the $50,000 and up range but you dont notice as much ?
if you can swing $7000 or so you end up with a pretty insane good HT system that can also do music very very well
but not as good as a dedicated $7000 music setup :)
to me its like a car the $2000 system can go 135 MPH which pretty much any car and mini van can do today :)
the $7000 system is like going 180 MPH !
and the $50k system is the 200 MPH
for those that have gone 180 going 200 is not that much different !
but going from 135 to 180 is a totally dif world !!!
The law of diminishing returns applies here as it does for everything. The cost of a car that can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds is not that large compared to one that does it under 7. But one that does it under 4 seconds compared to 5, a huge amount of $$$.
Guns that shoot MOA between X vs Y
Watches (nuff said)
etc, etc. The problem is, much of it is subjective and my line in the sand where I can't justify an amount of $$ on something (in this case HT set ups) may be different from yours.
My speakers alone in the first pic cost more than most people's entire HT set ups but I have been to people's homes who's L/R fronts speakers cost 10X more than my entire HT set up, but didn't sound 10X as good! Listened to a pair of speakers at my high end dealer that were 90K. None of us were impressed and the dealer decided not to carry the brand (we compared them to the B&W 802Ds which we all agreed sounded far better!)
Regarding your comments above, my main interest is two channel music, with HT secondary, so my system was set up to optimize 2 channel music.
I used to listen to a lot of music, but less so recently which is one of several reasons I sold those big 803Ds.
I agree, a solid system for HD can be had around 2-3k if you buy smart and do some homework, etc. and technology has allowed for sound quality you couldn't touch for that price just 10 years ago.
I am all mac based so use a program called Mac The Ripper have played with a program called fairmount also and use cocktail which is pretty common
my kids movies I rip and make into H.264 for plex
the reason I do the kids this way is its easy for them to just hit the show and watch it ! no menus no features etc..
then all the DVDs blurays I just recycled the plastic cases and keep the discs in a notebook thing made to hold discs and all the sleeve art stuff is in the back of the notebook
its my case logic :)
other movies I like a lot rip with MTR (mac the ripper) and just keep in VIDEO_TS folder style so I have all the special features etc...
and basically just shows up like a bluray with all the menus etc..
since its non compressed I loose no quality etc..
http://www.plexapp.com/
which is the main interface for all our movies and TV etc..
TV stuff I used to use a tivo box but now do everything with sickbeard and usenet
http://sickbeard.com/
so they just come in and a script tells plex to update new content
no commercials all HD or whatever format you want it in :)
nice thing is you can get past shows so I have all these cool old shows
pretty nice setup for entertainment the nice thing about plex is the interface and ease of use my 3 year old gets around in it ;)
also I can use my iPhone iPad or the keyboard or any of our computers to watch or as a remote for any of the other TVS
Thanks man. I appreciate the info. I just bought my second Roku box to I can stop using the blueray player with built Netflix option. It's way to cumbersome and only let's me get to Netflix. I like Amazon Prime too.
agree once you get to a point the differences are small :)
maybe my analogy is off :) but its a rough idea
once you get to that point a 10K system to a 50K system the differences are their but really hard to tell and have to really be listening for them
where the 2K total system to the 7K system once the gun fire breaks out or movies with canons or something :) you can hear stuff the others just cant put out
I think a lot of folks would be better with a 3 year old Marantz or Pioneer elite and 3 year old PSB speakers or whatever other good brand than brand new yamaha or something from frys :)
my brother is into audio but he is the tube amp kinda guy
lawyer/prosecutor so has the money to have nice stuff and he loves his tubes and vinyl big time :) and no need for a HT setup :)
so to him my system is not so nice for his music ;) hahahahah
The law of diminishing returns applies here as it does for everything. The cost of a car that can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds is not that large compared to one that does it under 7. But one that does it under 4 seconds compared to 5, a huge amount of $$$.
Guns that shoot MOA between X vs Y
Watches (nuff said)
etc, etc. The problem is, much of it is subjective and my line in the sand where I can't justify an amount of $$ on something (in this case HT set ups) may be different from yours.
My speakers alone in the first pic cost more than most people's entire HT set ups but I have been to people's homes who's L/R fronts speakers cost 10X more than my entire HT set up, but didn't sound 10X as good! Listened to a pair of speakers at my high end dealer that were 90K. None of us were impressed and the dealer decided not to carry the brand (we compared them to the B&W 802Ds which we all agreed sounded far better!)
Regarding your comments above, my main interest is two channel music, with HT secondary, so my system was set up to optimize 2 channel music.
I used to listen to a lot of music, but less so recently which is one of several reasons I sold those big 803Ds.
I agree, a solid system for HD can be had around 2-3k if you buy smart and do some homework, etc. and technology has allowed for sound quality you couldn't touch for that price just 10 years ago.
Thanks man. I appreciate the info. I just bought my second Roku box to I can stop using the blueray player with built Netflix option. It's way to cumbersome and only let's me get to Netflix. I like Amazon Prime too.
yeah no worries :)
I think the Roku has a plex app ?
for grins if you have a computer try the plex server which is super easy to install on your computer then the roku would access it over the network to serve up whats on your computer ?
the interface is pretty slick for movies and such
a few NBC shows are stopping usenet downloads and wanting you to watch on their website :( which often bite on quality
for backup I do have a elgato to record TV but its only 720 ? good enough though for the couple shows that they are stopping
one is boss the other is that arrow show ? so nothing critical anyway :)
I've always considered the sub the most critical thing in a dedicated home theater setup once you have decent gear elsewhere. Movies tend to be dialog and SHTF. Neither of those things are really going to take advantage of high end speakers IMO. Maybe things are changing with lossless audio becoming common and studios are putting more effort into the audio portion of the movie.
I've always considered the sub the most critical thing in a dedicated home theater setup once you have decent gear elsewhere. Movies tend to be dialog and SHTF.
I would add that the center channel is the most important for me, as with it I can much better balance the wide range between the dialog and the action. But yes, a good center channel speaker and a sub woofer are both important.
I've always considered the sub the most critical thing in a dedicated home theater setup once you have decent gear elsewhere. Movies tend to be dialog and SHTF. Neither of those things are really going to take advantage of high end speakers IMO. Maybe things are changing with lossless audio becoming common and studios are putting more effort into the audio portion of the movie.
then you need to hear a nice HT setup properly and balanced speakers up front meaning center and left and right have to be made for each other with each other to get the best effect etc... set up to THX standards for volume etc... :)
all that comes out of sub is sub 80 Hz or so vibrations total non directional or non localized as its often called :)
gun shots things cracking falling car sounds etc.. are all regular speaker stuff :)
if you have you would realize movies are much more than dialog and SHTF sounds :)
Because I have several things hooked up to my TV and many of them don't have a HDMI cable. And as you stated "signal either gets there or it doesn't."
I went with a Sony Amp (3 HDMI inputs ,One out put ,RCA,Digital cable ,)to run My Bose Acoustimass 10 well added 2
more cubes so it is a 12 now
. All components have to run into the amp then out to the TV the amp itself acts Like a up-converter if needed .This is By Far the best route to go for running multiple units, game systems etc.
Something else I have had to help friends do, make sure you read the manuals and set the Blu-ray up to get the Most out of what you have .You sometimes have to change default setting to others settings ,the difference can be night and day
then you need to hear a nice HT setup properly and balanced speakers up front meaning center and left and right have to be made for each other with each other to get the best effect etc... set up to THX standards for volume etc... :)
all that comes out of sub is sub 80 Hz or so vibrations
You mean 80HZ or below if using with small front L/R, but also depends on how your have your sub set up. My sub does not kick in till 50HZ with the smaller B&Ws and didnt kick in until 30HZ with the big 803Ds, and a sub was not actually needed with them at all, but I already had it.
total non directional or non localized as its often called :)
gun shots things cracking falling car sounds etc.. are all regular speaker stuff :)
if you have you would realize movies are much more than dialog and SHTF sounds :)
Those B&W 803Ds needed no sub at all BTW and the sub only came in at very low HZ. So, subs are needed depending on the L/R being used and some systems are fine without one (although any HT system will benefit from a good sub) but the center speaker is not a place one can skimp on and needs to be calibrated properly (using a sound meter) with L/R and rears to really sound right.
I'd love to have the matching new 800 series B&W to my new PM1 L/R, but have to live with the older 800 center for now. :D
then you need to hear a nice HT setup properly and balanced speakers up front meaning center and left and right have to be made for each other with each other to get the best effect etc... set up to THX standards for volume etc... :)
all that comes out of sub is sub 80 Hz or so vibrations total non directional or non localized as its often called :)
gun shots things cracking falling car sounds etc.. are all regular speaker stuff :)
if you have you would realize movies are much more than dialog and SHTF sounds :)
LFE information is certainly used in gunshots, car doors shutting, and things like that. Anyway, I've heard enough systems to know what sounds good. From cheap HTiB to $20K. Sure the $20K setup sounded much better than the cheap crap but you get a respectable system rather quickly. And it doesn't take too long before you're just buying badges for people to look at. But who doesn't like a Krell coffee table sized amp. 2 channel music is a little different game but spending $10,000+ a speaker for HT to watch movies is simply because you have money you no longer want. I'd like to see a double blind test on the issue, maybe they'll use some of the thumb sized speaker cables I have sitting in a box somewhere. LOL.
I spent a grand on the Bose (Sub with Cubes) very small on size But big in sound and bottom end another 350 on the receiver and Maybe 200 on stands and cables 550 on a TV .the Sub will get into your chest watching movies with folks that doesn't have a System Like mine is a treat they Jump at the sound of doors ,gun shot Monsters jumping out:sarcastic: I like having the ability to submerse Myself into my movies
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