Sig P250

[NightFighter]

I want to know if anyone has had any experience with the Sig P250? I find this a very interesting handgun. The ability to change from a full size to compact to sub compact hangun. The reviews I have read say that the Sig P250 is a good gun. I just want to know if anyone has any practical experience with this hangun.:)

[rathos]

I haven't fired one but we got one in at the shop I work at. Trigger pull is long but not hard (double action only) it actually felt really smooth. I don't think you can change it between fullsize, compact or subcompact, you can just change the slide for different calibers (only 9mm or 40, the .45 was too big to make interchangable). The only ones we have seen so far are the compacts, but in 9mm it holds 15.


I want to know if anyone has had any experience with the Sig P250? I find this a very interesting handgun. The ability to change from a full size to compact to sub compact hangun. The reviews I have read say that the Sig P250 is a good gun. I just want to know if anyone has any practical experience with this hangun.:)

[NightFighter]

There is an article in the May 08 Combat Handguns on page 12 that states that the Sig P250 can go from a full size to a compact to a sub compact handgun. From my impression the Sig P250 can also change calibers. There is also an ad on page 40 of the same magazine that states the Sig P250 can change sizes and calibers. To me this would be the one size and caliber fits all handgun. :D

[NextGhost]

Check http://www.sigforum.com

[Neville]

Looking at the parts used (cheap coil spring) IMHO the gun has an airsoft feeling. For 400,- USD it would be ok, but not for 1000,- USD (price here).

[Thermodyn]

NightFighter,

I rented a 9mm one with the medium frame at the local range last month, and I wasn't too impressed. The concept of interchangeable frames is unique and seems a good idea for law enforcement applications with officers of varying stature. But, the feel of the gun was very cheap, for lack of a better word. It wasn't particularly bad, just not confidence inspiring. It reminded me of a Smith and Wesson Sigma. I carried a G19 for 10 years so I'm not against plastic guns, but I'm a Hi-Power guy at heart, so take it for what it's worth. It shot alright, but not great, at least not for me. Granted, the sights were not zeroed being that it was a range gun, but I think it shot about four to five inches at 25yds on average if I remember correctly, but I was cold and tired. As Rathos observed, the trigger pull was long, but fairly smooth. If it met my needs, I could get used to it I suppose, but again, it wasn't particularly exciting. Just kinda felt like Sig's attempt at Glock's market share. Not really what I've come to expect from Sig (556 notwithstanding).

Overall it was kind of...Meh.

JMHO, so YMMV. :)

[rathos]

I re-read the article and it says you can change out the grip shells for the different sizes. I forgot about that part orignally because it said the frame was serialized, but the grip shell is a completely different part.

The other thing I was mistaken about is being able to go to .45 acp. You can interchange any caliber slide on the 9mm, .40 and .357 sig grip shells. To switch to .45 acp not only do you need a new slide, but a different grip shell.

And for the person who said it was $1000.00 for his gun I am not sure where you are shopping, but we have them at sportsman's warehouse for $629.00

With the price being 629.00 , I imagine the grip frames won't be too spendy so you can prolly have all calibers and sizes for around $1200 to $1300.

[NightFighter]

Check http://www.sigforum.com

Thanks for the hyperlink.

[NightFighter]

NightFighter,

I rented a 9mm one with the medium frame at the local range last month, and I wasn't too impressed. The concept of interchangeable frames is unique and seems a good idea for law enforcement applications with officers of varying stature. But, the feel of the gun was very cheap, for lack of a better word. It wasn't particularly bad, just not confidence inspiring. It reminded me of a Smith and Wesson Sigma. I carried a G19 for 10 years so I'm not against plastic guns, but I'm a Hi-Power guy at heart, so take it for what it's worth. It shot alright, but not great, at least not for me. Granted, the sights were not zeroed being that it was a range gun, but I think it shot about four to five inches at 25yds on average if I remember correctly, but I was cold and tired. As Rathos observed, the trigger pull was long, but fairly smooth. If it met my needs, I could get used to it I suppose, but again, it wasn't particularly exciting. Just kinda felt like Sig's attempt at Glock's market share. Not really what I've come to expect from Sig (556 notwithstanding).

Overall it was kind of...Meh.

JMHO, so YMMV. :)
Thanks for your report. That is the kind of information I need. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

[NightFighter]

I re-read the article and it says you can change out the grip shells for the different sizes. I forgot about that part orignally because it said the frame was serialized, but the grip shell is a completely different part.

The other thing I was mistaken about is being able to go to .45 acp. You can interchange any caliber slide on the 9mm, .40 and .357 sig grip shells. To switch to .45 acp not only do you need a new slide, but a different grip shell.

And for the person who said it was $1000.00 for his gun I am not sure where you are shopping, but we have them at sportsman's warehouse for $629.00

With the price being 629.00 , I imagine the grip frames won't be too spendy so you can prolly have all calibers and sizes for around $1200 to $1300.

I think I will have to find a range where I can rent a Sig P250. Unless it is really good felling and shooting I think I will stay with what has worked for me so far the XD.

[sff70]

Sig gets an A+ for creativity.

Apart from that, it's a solution in search of a problem.

IMHO

[ToddG]

I worked at SIG during the P250's extremely long birthing process and have done demos for some federal agencies.

The ability to change calibers is extremely attractive to a couple agencies, and not to most. For the agencies who like the concept, they still have to deal with the price ... a slide & barrel will be fairly expensive. From what I've seen on other forums, the price of an P250 + one caliber change kit is about the same price as two completely Glocks or M&Ps.

The ability to change the plastic grip to fit different hand sizes is nothing new and is addressed by many other companies' products. However, the P250 is unique in that you can switch from a compact (say G26-size) grip to a medium (G19-size) to a full size (G17-size) gun just by changing the polymer grip. Of course, if you want the benefit of longer barrel/sight radius you still need to change the slide and barrel, too, and again you come into a cost/benefit analysis. Nonetheless, at least two very big and influential agencies wanted test samples the moment they saw this capability.

Changing the gun from one grip to another is literally a ten-second operation if you've never done it before. There is one spring on the frame (the steel skeleton with the serial number and all the moving parts for the action, etc) which can become dislodged in the process but it's easy to figure out and intuitive to get back in place. For all I know, this has even been addressed with a design improvement prior to the guns hitting the general market.

The trigger is by far the smoothest I've ever felt on a semiauto pistol. It's would be incredible except for the very long, full stroke reset required for each shot. Some agencies don't care, but two big agencies I deal with rejected the gun immediately for that reason. As of the time I left SIG, there were no plans to develop the gun in any action other than this long stroke DAO. However, my understanding is that due to major complaints (or suggestions, depending on one's point of view) from initial end-users and evaluators, SIG has at least promised to put a TDA (DA/SA) version of the gun on their design schedule. Fitting all those additional parts in the gun would be a trick, but engineers do incredible things some times.

There are substantial differences in both internal and external design between the original German version of the pistol and the one sold in the U.S. The Germans were unable to get the pistol working in any caliber but 9x19mm after a couple years of trying. The mandate from the U.S. was to make it work in .40 and .45 (the latter expedited due to the expected U.S. military demand for a new .45), so the engineering responsibility was dropped in the U.S. company's lap about a year and a half ago. To maintain holster compatibility from caliber to caliber, the size of the 9mm slide (which worked fine in the German version) had to be changed to match the exterior dimensions of the heavier .40-cal slide.

Since I've only handled and shot prototypes and pre-production guns, I will let others comment on things like accuracy, reliability, etc.

[NightFighter]

I worked at SIG during the P250's extremely long birthing process and have done demos for some federal agencies.

The ability to change calibers is extremely attractive to a couple agencies, and not to most. For the agencies who like the concept, they still have to deal with the price ... a slide & barrel will be fairly expensive. From what I've seen on other forums, the price of an P250 + one caliber change kit is about the same price as two completely Glocks or M&Ps.

The ability to change the plastic grip to fit different hand sizes is nothing new and is addressed by many other companies' products. However, the P250 is unique in that you can switch from a compact (say G26-size) grip to a medium (G19-size) to a full size (G17-size) gun just by changing the polymer grip. Of course, if you want the benefit of longer barrel/sight radius you still need to change the slide and barrel, too, and again you come into a cost/benefit analysis. Nonetheless, at least two very big and influential agencies wanted test samples the moment they saw this capability.

Changing the gun from one grip to another is literally a ten-second operation if you've never done it before. There is one spring on the frame (the steel skeleton with the serial number and all the moving parts for the action, etc) which can become dislodged in the process but it's easy to figure out and intuitive to get back in place. For all I know, this has even been addressed with a design improvement prior to the guns hitting the general market.

The trigger is by far the smoothest I've ever felt on a semiauto pistol. It's would be incredible except for the very long, full stroke reset required for each shot. Some agencies don't care, but two big agencies I deal with rejected the gun immediately for that reason. As of the time I left SIG, there were no plans to develop the gun in any action other than this long stroke DAO. However, my understanding is that due to major complaints (or suggestions, depending on one's point of view) from initial end-users and evaluators, SIG has at least promised to put a TDA (DA/SA) version of the gun on their design schedule. Fitting all those additional parts in the gun would be a trick, but engineers do incredible things some times.

There are substantial differences in both internal and external design between the original German version of the pistol and the one sold in the U.S. The Germans were unable to get the pistol working in any caliber but 9x19mm after a couple years of trying. The mandate from the U.S. was to make it work in .40 and .45 (the latter expedited due to the expected U.S. military demand for a new .45), so the engineering responsibility was dropped in the U.S. company's lap about a year and a half ago. To maintain holster compatibility from caliber to caliber, the size of the 9mm slide (which worked fine in the German version) had to be changed to match the exterior dimensions of the heavier .40-cal slide.

Since I've only handled and shot prototypes and pre-production guns, I will let others comment on things like accuracy, reliability, etc.

Thanks for the information on the slide price. That was what I was wondering about the most. The cost of converting the pistol from one caliber to another. I think the concept is very interesting, but for my needs I dont think the Sig P250 is what I need at this time.

[ToddG]

Nightfighter -- in all fairness, when it comes to pricing I really only know what I read. Hop on over to SIGforum and look around, I think there has been an official guesstimate made by one of the people at SIG and published on their forum.

[Noshoot]

I bought one last week. Here is what I posted on the Sig board on TOS-

Posted :: 2/15/2008 3:40:27 PM MST

I just bought a P250c today in black. Picked up 3 extra mags for it at the same time.

Immediately headed out to the desert to give it a run. Ran a mix of WW white box 115 FMJ, WW white box 115 JHP, WW Ranger 124 FMJ Nato, and Speer 124 +P+ GDHP.

It shot and pointed really well (and I am a dyed in the wool Glock fan). Double taps took a little getting used to but it actually did quite well in that respect. I also attached my TLR-1 for S&G's and it did a little for decreasing muzzle rise but to be quite honest the pistol is VERY controllable without the light attached (with all loads).

[ToddG]

Noshoot -- There is no 124gr +p+ Gold Dot (from ATK/Speer, anyway). Did you mean 124gr +p or the 115gr +p?

When you talk about double taps taking a bit longer, can you provide some more detail? Range, target size, actual split times, etc.

[Noshoot]

Noshoot -- There is no 124gr +p+ Gold Dot (from ATK/Speer, anyway). Did you mean 124gr +p or the 115gr +p?

When you talk about double taps taking a bit longer, can you provide some more detail? Range, target size, actual split times, etc.

The 124gr +p+ GDHP's are the rounds that ammoman sold in bulk pack years ago (looking at the headstamp now).

Doubles took a bit longer due to the extended reset of the trigger- in comparison to my favorite pistol (G17) that has a complete Ghost Rocket set up tuned for extremely short reset. I was finding that when shooting doubles I was only able to keep my hits within about 4-6 inches of each other (as marked in wet earth at 7 yds- I attribute this more to lack of familiarity with the trigger), instead of my normal 1-2. Since it was a quick run out to the desert and a quick familiarization exercise I never pulled the timer out out of my range box.

With this being a "famfire" I was only ticking away in the 3-7 yd range and I was choosing shotgun shells and small debris (pebbles/rocks/wood) for targets.

I won't be able to get out again until next week for some extended range time. Once I do I'll be able to provide greater detail.

[ToddG]

Interesting about the 124gr +p+ GD. Never heard of that before, and I've used both the 115gr +p+ and 124gr +p extensively. Learn something new every day. :cool: Was it actually +p+ pressures or just accidentally loaded into +p+ marked brass? Have you chrono'd it, by chance?

Definitely look forward to hearing your results with the P250 once you've had time to get comfortably accustomed to it.

Stay safe!

[Noshoot]

Was it actually +p+ pressures or just accidentally loaded into +p+ marked brass? Have you chrono'd it, by chance?


It was an LE contract load that supposedly had the incorrect primers (per spec) so Speer dumped them on the market. I haven't chrono'd it as of yet only because I just never got around to it. Since I am beginning to run low on it (from cycling my carry loads every 6-9 months) I probably won't get around to it.

[PLCedeno]

LAV looked at it and i cant repeat what he said but i would pass on it.




I want to know if anyone has had any experience with the Sig P250? I find this a very interesting handgun. The ability to change from a full size to compact to sub compact hangun. The reviews I have read say that the Sig P250 is a good gun. I just want to know if anyone has any practical experience with this hangun.:)

[Noshoot]

LAV looked at it and i cant repeat what he said but i would pass on it.

I think that shooting and testing should be what this pistol is judged by.

[Noshoot]

I think that shooting and testing should be what this pistol is judged by.

So I went out on Saturday morning and did a bit more shooting with the P250c…..

While not a definitive test, I was just looking to get a feel of how the pistol performed and actually printed on paper (in comparison to “fam” firing at random objects like I did on the first outing with the pistol).

I was using BT-5R/2 targets on stands set at approx 5’8” or so in height (a little shorter than myself) with Winchester bulk pack 115gr FMJ. Timer used was a Pact CLUB TIMER III. Starting position was low/high ready (depending on what I felt like doing at the time).

Results as follows-
1st string- 3yd “medium” speed fire 10 rds 2” group (warm up)
2nd string- 3yd rapid fire 10 rds 3 ¾” group
3rd string- 7yd slow fire 10 rds 1 ¾” group
4th string- 7yd rapid “panic dump” 10 rds 6 ½” group*
5th string- 3yd rapid 10 rds 2” group*
6th string- 3yd rapid “panic dump” 10 rds 3” group*
7th string- 3yd double taps 30 rds avg 1-3” groups, fastest split was 0.24 sec*
8th string- 7yd double taps 30 rds avg 2-5” groups, fastest split was 0.28 sec*

Overall feel was good, but I noticed that the pinky finger of my shooting hand was not making full contact at the base of the grip which caused me to adjust my grip from time to time for comfort.

Tighter groups came from using a “palm crush grip” instead of letting the pistol “float” in my hands.

Strings that are followed with an asterisk are when I noticed that the trigger reset was slow and sluggish. What I mean by this is that the trigger reset did not “keep up” with my trigger finger when moving forward. I felt like I was waiting for the trigger to move back forward to reset before I could fire again. This actually resulted in a sort of short stroking on a couple of occasions and the trigger would then hang and not properly reset.

For comparison on splits, I fired multiple double and rapid fire strings from my G17. As seen above, the best split I could achieve with the P250c on doubles was 0.24 sec (and not consistently) where as with my G17 I was consistently pegging 0.16 sec on doubles. Another point of interest to me was that when firing from low ready with the Sig I was not able to get any faster than 1.05 sec from buzzer to first shot, while with the Glock I was consistently running 1.01-1.04 from the holster (Blade Tech Paddle- forgot to mention I had my TLR-1 attached) from both hands relaxed at side and hands in surrender position.

In the end the Sig went back, and I came home with a new G19……

[ToddG]

Thanks for taking the time to test & measure, Noshoot! Interesting info and not surprising.

I'm assuming no stoppages or malfunctions, is that correct?

[Noshoot]

Thanks for taking the time to test & measure, Noshoot! Interesting info and not surprising.

I'm assuming no stoppages or malfunctions, is that correct?

There were no stoppages, just the issue with the trigger reset-


the trigger would then hang and not properly reset

The trigger flat out did not return to the full reset position. The first time it occurred I broke down the pistol, cleaned/lubed it, then reassembled. I fired 10 more rounds and it happened again. Once this became fairly "common" I decided it had to go. I wasn't in the least bit interested in attempting to troubleshoot the issue and figured that maybe the "trigger reset system" was weak (since I had removed the possibility of being dirty as a possible factor). I was disappointed that this became an issue with the pistol because I really wanted it to work well for me.

BTW, I am not attempting to slight the pistol. I just want to give an objective/factual accounting of my experience with the pistol and its performance while doing a brief structured test firing.

[Robb Jensen]

I've noticed this just playing with the 250s at the store. It's has a very lazy reset. If they were going to make the reset that long they should have made it have a much more positive reset even if it made for a heavier trigger press. Me being used to much shorter resets of 1911s, 2011s, Glocks and M&Ps I imagine I'd short stroke the hell out of one of those trying to shoot it 'at speed'.

[Noshoot]

I've noticed this just playing with the 250s at the store. It's has a very lazy reset. If they were going to make the reset that long they should have made it have a much more positive reset even if it made for a heavier trigger press. Me being used to much shorter resets of 1911s, 2011s, Glocks and M&Ps I imagine I'd short stroke the hell out of one of those trying to shoot it 'at speed'.

I agree, I think a more positive reset would have had the effect of increasing the pull a bit. But it would have been a small price to pay for 100% reliability.

I would have been content to own a pistol that had a nice smooth consistent 6-7 lb pull with the re-strike capability of a revolver (and 16rds to boot). I think Sig may be headed in the right direction, they just haven't reached the end of the trail yet.

[ToddG]

The mistaken assumption here is that the people making decisions about gun design (not just at SIG, but pretty much throughout the industry) rarely if ever have any inkling about what makes a pistol a good shooter.

The original German prototype 250's had an atrocious, heavy, gritty trigger but a reasonable reset. When employee testers pointed out the problems, management shrugged. When some folks from Picatinny visited the factory and got to preview and test fire the prototypes (and made the same comments), suddenly the trigger needed to be changed for the US market. :cool:

The next iteration had a light, smooth trigger with a ridiculously long but positive reset. This trigger mechanism also had all sorts of light primer strike issues which resulted in embarrassing demos with .gov and .mil potential customers.

The current version seems to have eliminated the light strike problem, but for some reason now the trigger return is weaker. However, I can't say whether there is a connection between those issues or not. Other changes have also been made internally and externally trying to shoehorn the .40 and especially the .45 into the design without compromising reliability, durability, etc.

[Alpha Sierra]

Looking at the parts used (cheap coil spring) IMHO the gun has an airsoft feeling. For 400,- USD it would be ok, but not for 1000,- USD (price here).

Define cheap coil springs......

What would you rather SIG use? V springs? Leaf springs? Rubber bands?

[MikeO]

It's an interesting piece of engineering. The rear sight/firing
pin/extractor arrangement is very interesting. Have to strip the slide to
replace the rear sight (the rear sight is like the firing pin stop on a
1911; the firing pin and extractor go through it). The mainspring is
actually contained in the hammer, not the backstrap part of the grip. No
locking block; the bbl cams on the takedown lever and slide stop.

The internal frame and grip module are the same for the 9/40/357. The
slide, bbl, and mags are not.

It's not as modular as it could be, or I would have made it. For example, if
any of the frame rails or the ejector break/chip (not likely, but still
possible), you have to replace the whole frame (same for the HKs BTW). All
of those parts are easier and cheaper to replace on the sig pro, FNP and S&W
M&P.

The price of a new slide/bbl/mag set to convert your frame/grip will be
cheaper than a new SIG, but not much, if any, cheaper than a new Glock/XD
w/o NS. This convertability feature makes some sense to some large
departments than the avg user IMO. The local PD (1100 officers) does authorize
9/40/357/45 autos for example. Or somebody has to license/register guns,
but wants to change caliber size w/o the hassle of a "new" gun.

I watched some who were used to Glocks and HKs w LEM action try the
P250. Some had trouble short-stroking it due to the long reset, but quickly
got over it. I did not have that problem since I started out w DA revolvers
more than 30 yrs ago and still shoot them; this feels like a very good DA
revolver trigger to me. S&Ws JM does some fast n fancy shooting w long reset
revolver triggers. I liked it , had no trouble doing good work w it. Over 2000 rounds w no malfunctions.

According to Speer they never made any 124 +P+ GD, just the 124 +P GD. They do have a 115 +P+ GD. Speer bulk packs their "reclassified/not for LE use" ammo that way from time to time. millions of round were bulk packed that way after the primer problem of late 2001/early 2002, but other lots were reclassified for other reasons before and after that.

[Noshoot]

According to Speer they never made any 124 +P+ GD, just the 124 +P GD. They do have a 115 +P+ GD. Speer bulk packs their "reclassified/not for LE use" ammo that way from time to time. millions of round were bulk packed that way after the primer problem of late 2001/early 2002, but other lots were reclassified for other reasons before and after that.

Am I losing my mind (quite possibly). I bought the stuff 5-6 years ago so my memory could be failing me.