9mm from a Carbine penetration

[jimmyp]

I am considering a Colt Carbine in 9mm, shooting 115 grain Remington HP ammunition, will there be considerably more penetration if fired in a house than with a 62 grain 5.56 soft point? The 9mm carbine I am considering for home defense, as I imagine it to be easier for a small framed woman to achieve rapid follow up shots and with less flash and lower report? However I don't want to shoot through my neighbors house more readily. Then any knowledgable comments on effectiveness of this load for this purpose would be helpful.

[S. Galbraith]

You do realize that you will be essentially using just a handgun with a stock? My opinion is that if you are going to bother using a shoulder mounted weapon, it might as well have rifle wounding effects or dish out 9-15 pellets of buckshot per shot.

[Texas42]

A pistol cartridge from a rifle system will just have a little more velocity, not a huge velocity increase. It will still have almost the same exact penetration and wounding characteristics as if it had been fired from a handgun. It will still penetrate many walls.

A rifle system is easier to shoot, but is less manuverable.

The recoil from a a .223 remington is pretty light to begin with. . . . .

If you goal is to have subsonic, then pistol rounds have their place.

[Traveshamockery]

I wanted a 9mm carbine for the same reason, but after doing research, I found that most people report similar or increased recoil vs. a 5.56 AR platform. This is due to the blowback operation of most (all?) 9mm carbines. More reciprocating mass means more felt recoil.

[Frailer]

I wanted a 9mm carbine for the same reason, but after doing research, I found that most people report similar or increased recoil vs. a 5.56 AR platform. This is due to the blowback operation of most (all?) 9mm carbines. More reciprocating mass means more felt recoil.

More reciprocating mass equals more felt recoil IF all other factors remain equal.

In this case, we're talking about a 9x19 round vs a 5.56x45 round--so all other factors are not equal.

The felt recoil of my 9mm carbine is negligible--and less than my 5.56 carbines.

[Traveshamockery]

More reciprocating mass equals more felt recoil IF all other factors remain equal.

In this case, we're talking about a 9x19 round vs a 5.56x45 round--so all other factors are not equal.

The felt recoil of my 9mm carbine is negligible--and less than my 5.56 carbines.

Interesting firsthand info, thanks. Contrasts with what I've heard from others.

[ScottieG59]

I know that .223/5.56 blast will be loud indoors. I have been considering a suppressed subsonic option, such as 300 AAC Blackout.

Also, I am not big into shotguns but I have done some research. There are several viable options there and a 12 gauge is not essential.

Currently, I stick with a Glock 20 in a small lock box by the bed. Occasionally, I respond to noises in the house, especially when the dogs notice too. With kids in the house, I prefer to keep concealed. Several times, I have found them lurking around in the dark.

I also keep electronic ear muffs by the bed. They increase sounds except gunshot noises, which is filtered.

Anyway, it is hard to predict how I will respond to an actual threat. I have dealt with combat situations as a civilian and as a soldier and sometimes, I have been more nervous than other times. I think a lot of it was my feeling of how prepared I was. If you have not been there, you may not fully appreciate it. Performing under stress and fear takes a lot of training and drills. Focusing too much on equipment misses the objective in my opinion.

[Shawn Dodson]

I rented and shot a Beretta Cx4 Storm 9mm carbine (124gr std velocity) and was surprised that its felt recoil and muzzle jump was greater than my M4s.

For anyone who isn't a "shooter" (gun enthusiast), and who wants a long gun for home defense, then I suggest a Rossi Circuit Judge .410 revolver shotgun loaded with Federal Pemium Personal Defense 000 buckshot (4 pellets). This way she doesn't have to learn how to clear stoppages or risk short-stroking the action.

[BillORights]

Our club opens our indoor range to the public once a month. Had some guy show up with a Beretta Carbine. To make a long story short he couldn't fire more than 3 rounds without it jamming. Clearing a jam in the thing was interesting to watch. Not something I would want to do under stress. As I recall the spent case would fail to eject. Basically, he had to remove the magazine. Lock open the action and get in the ejection port with his finger to clear it. Didn't really get a chance to examine the jam and clearing too closely, because I was spending my time watching the muzzle on the carbine. I would definitely want to spend some time figuring out the best way to clear the jam if it was mine.

On the upside, there certainly has no perceivable recoil. It had a red dot sight of some sort and this guy, who had trouble hitting the backstop at 25 feet with a Glock, was getting nice groups with the carbine; when it worked.

On the downside, the jamming, and the difficulty in clearing the jam. I suspect the jamming problem was partly related to some operator issue, for example improper reassembly after field stripping. I don't know.

I own an M-1 Carbine. It is great for my wife. Easy to operate. Fits her shorter stature. Little recoil. She doesn't practice much, but can hit what she shoots at. I have a few magazines full of the Remington ammo that GKR recommends. It is definitely better for her as defensive arm than a handgun, my AR or the 12 gauge.

Although I think we are going to get her out spending a little more time with the AR and the Kalashnikov.

[RogerinTPA]

It's not a very common or compatible AR platform out there, so spare parts from friends and neighbors, or even local gun shops, with 5.56 platforms will be a No Go for repairs to say the least. At best, you'll have a 100 yard gun, if your skills can make accurate hits. It's not really what a 9mm sub gun was designed for. For a home defense gun, you'll be fine. But why limit yourself? That is why the military, as well as the major law enforcement agencies have dropped the 9mm platforms over the years for CQB and went with 5.56, which is more versatile across the board. If you're satisfied with that those limitations, drive on.

[tpd223]

Shot side by side I always thought our Colt SMGs recoiled more than the 5.56 guns.

Except for the MP5 I think most of the 9mm SMGs and PCCs I have fired give more felt recoil than an M4.

Depending on the load, some 9mm rounds can pick up enough velocity to effect the wound ballistics to the negative. Higher velocity may mean the bullet is above the design envelope and thus will over expand, fragment, and under penetrate.

Check this out;
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

[charmcitycop]

........

[BufordTJustice]

Shot side by side I always thought our Colt SMGs recoiled more than the 5.56 guns.

Except for the MP5 I think most of the 9mm SMGs and PCCs I have fired give more felt recoil than an M4.

Depending on the load, some 9mm rounds can pick up enough velocity to effect the wound ballistics to the negative. Higher velocity may mean the bullet is above the design envelope and thus will over expand, fragment, and under penetrate.

Check this out;
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

This. +1 to all of it.

Unless you are investing in a full-auto MP5 true-HK, you're FAR better off with a well-tuned ar15 carbine (even an SBR). 9mm AR's have an unpleasant recoil impulse (sharp & hard) compared to DI 5.56 setups.

OP, If you have any doubts about what we are saying, go shoot a 9mm AR15 side-by-side with a quality DI AR. But, I'll warn you: Prepare to be disappointed in the 9mm setup.

[TriviaMonster]

Honestly, I'm still unsure of the tradeoff between a carbine in 9mm even being better than a pistol in 9mm as far as non-SBR guns go. Not much gain except in rapid fire but a pretty big forfeit in handling in really tight quarters. I mean I can understand why an MP5k could dominate a pistol, but not convinced an AR 16" bbl gun could in the same caliber.

I would like to hear some SME's chime in.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[jimmyp]

interesting, and it does not look like the savings are really there in regards to "cost per shot" comparing some of the less expensive hollow point and soft point ammunition on some of the popular ammo web sites, both 5.56 and 9mm can be purchased for about 42 cents a round. It sounds like (no pun intended) that the only plus for the 9mm is a lower dB report and maybe less flash.

[DocGKR]

FWIW, while tpd223 does not have the "yellow M4C title", he is in fact highly experienced and is in my opinion an "SME" on LE firearms use.

[Altair]

Honestly, I'm still unsure of the tradeoff between a carbine in 9mm even being better than a pistol in 9mm as far as non-SBR guns go. Not much gain except in rapid fire but a pretty big forfeit in handling in really tight quarters. I mean I can understand why an MP5k could dominate a pistol, but not convinced an AR 16" bbl gun could in the same caliber.



The biggest advantage to a 9mm carbine is just ease of use. If you take someone with similar levels of training with handguns and long guns and you run them through a handgun course once with a modern semi-auto handgun and once with a carbine they will shoot faster and more accurately with the carbine. I've actually tested this with recruits that have no shooting experience when I run then through basic firearms. In fact, in my tests they have had several days of training with handguns and only a brief familiarization with the carbine before running through a combat course.

Since the goal in a gunfight is to get hits on target as quickly and accurately as possible the advantage should be obvious. As has been mentioned, however, if you are going to accept the extra size and weight of a long gun maneuvering inside a building you might as well take advantage of the significant increase in wounding potential available with a true rifle caliber.

[Nemecsek]

The only advantage to a pistol cal carbine is the lack of blast, report etc. I have fired them without ear muffs sometimes without pain (outdoors and with 16 barrel). 556 indoors will be brutal on the ears. Caliber or load used, topics which we obsess over here on the net, will likely be way down the list of things that matter in a real life "situation."

I would give a non-shooter any gun they could operate under pressure. The AR may be too complex for them regardless of the caliber. I have never had the time or ammo to train up a non-shooter (girlfriend) to satisfy me that they could use it at 0300, half asleep.

[Frailer]

Shot side by side I always thought our Colt SMGs recoiled more than the 5.56 guns.

Except for the MP5 I think most of the 9mm SMGs and PCCs I have fired give more felt recoil than an M4...

Based on the opinions expeessed in this thread, I guess we have clear evidence that felt recoil is highly subjective. ;)

[Altair]

The only advantage to a pistol cal carbine is the lack of blast, report etc. I have fired them without ear muffs sometimes without pain (outdoors and with 16 barrel). 556 indoors will be brutal on the ears. Caliber or load used, topics which we obsess over here on the net, will likely be way down the list of things that matter in a real life "situation."

I would give a non-shooter any gun they could operate under pressure. The AR may be too complex for them regardless of the caliber. I have never had the time or ammo to train up a non-shooter (girlfriend) to satisfy me that they could use it at 0300, half asleep.

I agree that a person is better off using a platform they are comfortable with, even if they give something up in terminal performance, but what is the complexity with the AR people have trouble with in your experience?

I've taught quite a few people with zero experience to use both pistols and AR's at my department and my experience is that they become proficient with the AR much more quickly than with the handgun.

Admittedly I have not taught nearly as many to use a pistol caliber carbine but the fundamentals aren't terribly different. Stance, grip, presentation, sight alignment, trigger control, movement, use of cover, reloading, and malfunction clearing are what I consider the "basics" and while they may have small differences in mechanics the principles are the same for each platform. The big difference I see is the ease with which someone new to shooting can point a long gun vs a pistol and a poor trigger pull affects POI more with the pistol than with the long gun.