View Full Version : Does Sig still have QC problems
Hi, i've heard that Sig Sauer has had some quality control problems after the guns were made in the US. Has this improved (assuming it was a problem in the first place)? Have any of these issues occured with the P226 Elite series?
I can only speak from very limited experience, but when I was in the academy a local university had its campus PD there as well using brand-new issued SIG USA P226s. Two of them broke after only a couple days of shooting. I believe both were spring issues, one of them definitely being a trigger spring that snapped. I cannot for the life of me remember what the other one's specific problem was. Anecdotal at best, but there you have it. I cannot justify spending close to a grand on a pistol when the M&P and Glock exists.
brushy bill
11-28-12, 21:33
There is a wealth of information on this forum on the Cohen SIGs. Not like the older ones by a wide margin. I am a sample of one, but my experience with Cohen SIG was not positive. Use the orange search and not the other one.
S. Galbraith
11-28-12, 21:37
I've been using and working on Sigs since the 1990s. The new guns are still going to be a gamble. Most individual customers will give you favorable reviews. After all, if only 1 in 5 guns has a problem, good internet reviews will abound. Customer service with Sig is generally pretty good though. If you have a problem, they are pretty good about correcting the issue. In 9mm, I still favor the carbon stamped slide guns which were made mostly before 2004.
I cannot justify spending close to a grand on a pistol when the M&P and Glock exists.
I feel that even with good QC Sig has priced themselves out of the market for most people. If i had a grand in my pocket to spend on a handgun i highly doubt it would be a Sig, it'd probably be an HK or a couple Glocks or M&P's.
Salamander
11-28-12, 22:12
One more data point: My 9mm P229, manufactured in 2009 (so a slightly different design than the current model) has been flawless under moderate use. I've outgrown DA/SA so no longer carry it very often, but otherwise have no issues with the gun.
Alaskapopo
11-29-12, 02:29
I would say yes and its well documented if you do a search on this forum.
Pat
They aren't as good as they once were, but they are clearly coming out of their nearly 5-6yr period of being rather crappy. Some of their most recent offerings (MK25 for example) have shown excellent quality control.
Their customer service has also been improving, in my last 7-8 interactions, all were perfect experiences.
Hopefully they'll continue to move forward, if not, it's not like there aren't other excellent options out there...
F-Trooper05
11-29-12, 13:17
Until SIG decides to thin their catalog, and shit-can the P250, P290, zombie themed guns, 1911's, most of their rifles, and THIS (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/standard-acp.aspx) god awful thing, I will continue to be skeptical of SIG products.
davebee456
11-29-12, 13:21
My recent production P226r from 2010 broke after it's first 40 rounds of 9mm 124gr fmj.
The extractor flew out of gun and retention spring and rod busted making my P226 useless,
Sig customer service told me "you should be happy it happened at the range and not in a life and death situation because now we can fix it"
shame cause i love older sigs but they are not making alot if the parts anymore
brickboy240
11-29-12, 17:06
I believe the rule still remains....
want a good SIG pistol for sure? Buy a W. German made P-series 9mm....P225, P228, P226...and call it good.
Everything else they make is too iffy. You MIGHT get a good one or you might get a basket case.
All 3 of my SIGs say "Made in W. Germany" on the slide and all have been pretty trouble free guns for the many years I have owned them.
-brickboy240
My recent production P226r from 2010 broke after it's first 40 rounds of 9mm 124gr fmj.
The extractor flew out of gun and retention spring and rod busted making my P226 useless,
Sig customer service told me "you should be happy it happened at the range and not in a life and death situation because now we can fix it"
That right there speaks volumes to me! Incredible. I wouldn't touch one now.
Alaskapopo
11-29-12, 18:13
All SIGs are garbage!
The first step is admitting the problem. I hope Sig gets its act together I miss the old days when they made some of the best DA pistols on the market.
Pat
I have a 2011 P226 Navy and can say that it certainly is put together well in terms of fit and finish but I don't shoot it often so can't comment beyond that.
The first step is admitting the problem. I hope Sig gets its act together I miss the old days when they made some of the best DA pistols on the market.
Pat
Geez, I know. I really wish they would get their act together like S&W and Glock. They never have any problems.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
11-29-12, 18:46
I own one SIG-- 2010 production P226 Navy made in Exeter. Over 10,000 rounds through it using all types of ammo and running it through numerous training classes with no malfunctions or any hiccups whatsoever. Dead accurate and with the installation of an SRT, it's perfect IMO. Don't know the track record of other SIG models, but my P226 will always be my "go-to" handgun.
I put approximately 6,000 rounds through my Sig P229 (.40) in less than a year. The gun was manufactured in 2010. Zero malfunctions.
Sold it to fund an Ed Brown. I've missed it ever since.
To be quite honest, I could care less about a manufacturer's reputation. At the end of the day, all I care about is if my gun runs.
Sig takes a beating on this forum but if you look around, Glocks and M&Ps are malfunctioning left and right.
That said, I think most of the Sig hatred comes from the fact that they are pumping out all sorts of gimmicky guns at the moment.
If I wanted a SIG, I would go with an older one (W. Germany). Too many people that deal with SIG on an insider level tell me me horror stories.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-29-12, 21:05
Geez, I know. I really wish they would get their act together like S&W and Glock. They never have any problems.
Glocks and S&W troubles are very minor compared to Sig of late and the last Gen 4 Glocks I have seen have been working great.
Pat
Glocks and S&W troubles are very minor compared to Sig of late and the last Gen 4 Glocks I have seen have been working great.
Pat
What do you mean? Minor in terms of the scope of the troubles or the nature of the troubles? Is this based on statistical data, your personal experience, secondhand information . . . ? I'm not trying to bust your balls, just genuinely curious.
My M&P 9 FS had to have the striker assembly replaced and the barrel replaced due to non-repairable manufacturing defects. After these part(s) replacements, I still suffered failure-to-feed malfunctions (likely attributable to another less-than-stellar feed ramp). On top of that, I was quite short of enthused about the groups I was getting at 20+ yards. The slide release was useless. It was incredible difficult to depress. Sold it. No confidence in that particular pistol.
Decided to give the M&P platform another go with the Shield. The white dot in the front sight post of my M&P 9 shield fell out my first time shooting it. Yes, that's a very common (and insignificant) issue across the board with all M&Ps. However, I got the pistol back after repair and during my first post-repair session, the front sight post started to walk out of place. Sold it. Too bad because that gun was remarkably easy to group with.
With my 2010 P229 (see my above post), I put over 6,000 rounds downrange with it in a year and saw zero malfunctions. Accurate and solid. I guess my point is that with any mass produced pistol, you're going to come across studs and duds.
All that said, my carry Glocks (G23 and G26) run like absolute champions.
Alaskapopo
11-29-12, 21:52
What do you mean? Minor in terms of the scope of the troubles or the nature of the troubles? Is this based on statistical data, your personal experience, secondhand information . . . ? I'm not trying to bust your balls, just genuinely curious.
My M&P 9 FS had to have the striker assembly replaced and the barrel replaced due to non-repairable manufacturing defects. After these part(s) replacements, I still suffered failure-to-feed malfunctions (likely attributable to another less-than-stellar feed ramp). On top of that, I was quite short of enthused about the groups I was getting at 20+ yards. The slide release was useless. It was incredible difficult to depress. Sold it. No confidence in that particular pistol.
Decided to give the M&P platform another go with the Shield. The white dot in the front sight post of my M&P 9 shield fell out my first time shooting it. Yes, that's a very common (and insignificant) issue across the board with all M&Ps. However, I got the pistol back after repair and during my first post-repair session, the front sight post started to walk out of place. Sold it. Too bad because that gun was remarkably easy to group with.
With my 2010 P229 (see my above post), I put over 6,000 rounds downrange with it in a year and saw zero malfunctions. Accurate and solid. I guess my point is that with any mass produced pistol, you're going to come across studs and duds.
All that said, my carry Glocks (G23 and G26) run like absolute champions.
Minor in that its not affecting the entire Glock line it seemed to be just the 9mm's and now it seems to have gotten much better. Peronally like I said those with Gen 4 glocks in my club are doing fine. With Sigs the problems seem to run the whole line. Personally I wish all companies would stop the cost cutting measures and focus on quality vs just profit. I see it with more companies than just Sig unfortunately.
Pat
Seems like there is a lot of speculation and opinions that are not based on experience in this thread.
I have 9k rounds through my MK25 with 0 issues of any kind.
Seems like there is a lot of speculation and opinions that are not based on experience in this thread.
I have 9k rounds through my MK25 with 0 issues of any kind.
Could be, but not from me. I talk to people that work large .Mil contracts with foreign Govts.
From what I know, SIG does NOT test fire a single round through their commercial guns. In regards to CS, they typically make the customer pay for shipping of guns back to them (fail).
Had a friend of mine bring me in his exploded 226. The slide had a crack in it and blew in half. Sig would not assist in any way.
I do own a SIG BTW (W. German). Very nice gun.
C4
Had a friend of mine bring me in his exploded 226. The slide had a crack in it and blew in half. Sig would not assist in any way.
I do own a SIG BTW (W. German). Very nice gun.
C4
Somehow I think an 'exploded' 226 is way beyond a manufacturing defect. (I'm sure we've all seen pics of the exploded glocks and various S&W revolvers on the intarwebz as well)
I'm no fanboi but own several sigs. Stick with the proven models. Carbon slide P-series, Stainless 229's and 239's have been proven over and over for many rounds by many agencies.
And do not forget out here in cyperspace you will hear bad reports/complaints but the number of these as compared to number of good ones in owners hands are really a tiny percentage.
Are they overpriced? Heck yes. Do they have to many gimmicky rainbow/diamondplate/zombie models? Again a resounding heck yes......but obviously they sell.
Somehow I think an 'exploded' 226 is way beyond a manufacturing defect. (I'm sure we've all seen pics of the exploded glocks and various S&W revolvers on the intarwebz as well)
No, actually it isn't. It was a defect in the gun.
I'm no fanboi but own several sigs. Stick with the proven models. Carbon slide P-series, Stainless 229's and 239's have been proven over and over for many rounds by many agencies.
I am of the opinion that SIG LE and SIG Commercial are different guns. I have no problem buying an LE SKU'd Sig, but would NOT buy a new commercial SIG (based off what I know).
And do not forget out here in cyperspace you will hear bad reports/complaints but the number of these as compared to number of good ones in owners hands are really a tiny percentage.
Are they overpriced? Heck yes. Do they have to many gimmicky rainbow/diamondplate/zombie models? Again a resounding heck yes......but obviously they sell.
I don't pay any attention to the errornet. My info comes directly from people that deal with SIG on a regular basis that know more about firearms than you and I combined!
I understand that ALL manufacturers put out lemons. The question you have to ask is if it is a design flaw, poor quality or ineptitude from the manufacturer?
C4
I had a couple older W.German Sigs with unknown rd count.. guess 80k+ on one. Wasn't pretty, the frame rails were wearing up. Regular spring changes no issue.
The new USA made MK25, vs legacy guns, shows more issues in institutional use.
I think Sig need to sort out if they're ready to lose the Mil/LE market, which essentially provides marketing/credibility for individual sales.
Perhaps "MK25 dropped by Navy SEALs like a green poop covered diaper" wouldn't look so good in shiny gloss print advertising
I had a couple older W.German Sigs with unknown rd count.. guess 80k+ on one. Wasn't pretty, the frame rails were wearing up. Regular spring changes no issue.
The new USA made MK25, vs legacy guns, shows more issues in institutional use.
I think Sig need to sort out if they're ready to lose the Mil/LE market, which essentially provides marketing/credibility for individual sales.
Perhaps "MK25 dropped by Navy SEALs like a green poop covered diaper" wouldn't look so good in shiny gloss print advertising
Interesting. Vickers and I talked about this awhile back. Wondered how the MK25's would hold up VS the older Sig's issued to the Teams.
C4
Yama Arashi
11-30-12, 08:19
I won't even buy anything from SIG nowadays, but I love their olde school firearms.
I think the issues are more hyped, than they are widespread, but still think they've been going down the tubes for a while now.
brickboy240
11-30-12, 11:03
The three SIGs I own - W. German P225, P228 and P220 were all made in the late 80s and early 90s.
I bought them as police trade ins for around 400 bucks each.
Detail cleaned them and swapped out all the springs and just started running them like mad. Have now owned them for going in 8 years and I swear...I cannot remember any of them ever giving me a feed jam or troubles at all.
Thousands of rounds through them and they just work. I used to CCW the P228 quite often.
So yeah...I have quite experience with the older w. German folded slide SIGs but no ownership of the newer models.
That is why I always suggest that if someone REALLY wants a SIG...grab an older W. German one, because mine have been stellar.
Buying them new is expensive but if you look around, you can find police trade ins that were carried a lot but shot very little. Mine were all bought from Cole's Dist. in KY and for around 400 bucks. A 15 dollar spring kit and some cleaning and they shoot great. A steal for 400 bucks if you ask me and they are still out there.
Why pay 800 plus for what might be an iffy piece when for 400 and some work, you can buy the guns that built SIGs reputation?
-brickboy240
PS: Yes, I am amazed that the 1989 made P220 is so trouble free, as these were known as problem children. Admittedly, I don't shoot the P220 nearly as much as I do the P225 and P228.
I had a couple older W.German Sigs with unknown rd count.. guess 80k+ on one. Wasn't pretty, the frame rails were wearing up. Regular spring changes no issue.
The new USA made MK25, vs legacy guns, shows more issues in institutional use.
I think Sig need to sort out if they're ready to lose the Mil/LE market, which essentially provides marketing/credibility for individual sales.
Perhaps "MK25 dropped by Navy SEALs like a green poop covered diaper" wouldn't look so good in shiny gloss print advertising
Interesting. This is the first time that I have heard of issues with the Mk25, and it is contradicting to what other "SME's" (on this board and others), who I assume are in the same line of work as you, have said. What problems are you seeing? Small parts, longevity etc? I have also seen nothing but praise for the gun from the commercial side.
Anyways, here's a few quotes of what the others had to say.
My daily carry is a Sig of various flavors depending on the situation.
I have had 3 brand new 226's and 2 brand new 239's over the past 3 years and have not had any issues with any of them. Since round count seems to be the method of giving merit to reliability and longevity, I would estimate probably about 60k rounds. Figure about 50k through the 226's and 10k through the 239's.
When making assessments based off of internet information, seriously consider the source. If the source cannot be vetted and verified, then I generally discard it.
Edited to add:
I am currently in the process of buying a custom limited edition Mk25 226. There are some holster compatibility issues with the true 1913 Pic rail, but am also going with custom leather to match the custom gun. I have no doubt the gun I buy will be as ready for action as the Mk25 in my locker at work. Despite the claims on the internet of substandard this, that, and the other, my confidence in the reliability and longevity of Sig pistols remains high.
Always consider the source of info.
As for comparing Sig to Sig.......I can do that with my 226R's right now.
They are the same.
Same reliability.
Same longevity.
Are subject to the same harsh firing schedules.
Get cleaned just as often (never).
Still work.
Over the past 3 years, my personal gun has more collective rounds on it that the 3 NIB issued guns have combined. Personal gun is still going strong, with only a broken recoil spring so far. That was at about 26k round mark. Pretty sure they are supposed to be replaced every 5k or so.........
Just sayin..................
The Sig Sauer P226 pistols has been in use by the Navy SEAL Teams since 1989 and the P239 for the last 5 years or so. Nobody on the Teams is complaining about these guns after 23 years of continuous service from workup through deployment year in and year out. I've seen the older rebuilt guns- which a few can be spotted, to the newer MK25. I believe as a whole the MK25's; which are currently issued to the Teams to be the best incarnation of the P226 to date. These SIG Sauer Pistols come out of the same factory in NH as those offered commercially to the civilian market.
<snip>
I know someone is going to chime in with, well such and such said this or that... Fine, if someone's word has that much effect on your psyche then by all means follow it to the end. Don't let my objective view of SIG Sauer Pistols in the form of the P226; which comes from a large sample size of guns that have seen very hard use over a period of almost a quarter century get in your way.
I cannot speak to others experiences or depth of knowledge. Most commandos aren't gun dorks, don't have a view point on a wider selection of armaments beyond what's issued, nor perspective on the merits of different wares (unless they did a RDT&E job or compete). Add to that an emotional attachment to what ever pill slinger they carried in combat (if it worked).
Nor do I fix guns for a living, but I talk to people that do mind-numbing amounts of it. They have an aggregate across hundreds of weapons so not an individuals statistically insignificant anecdotal story.
My experiences with the OLDER folded sigs: would break the roll pin retaining the breachblock. The spring in the side of the grip would break and or wear into the frame. Newer (wider) grips have a different spring. P226's and mags.. are rustprone. I once walked by a sunset on the ocean painting in an office, and had corrosion on my hammer & mags within seconds..
Newer sigs have been reported, to me, to have a lot more problems. And not the predictable ones you can address through a rd count driven parts replacement matrix.
For me, Pistols are insignificant in the scheme of things. I prefer small simple lightweight and consistent polymer.
Caveat Emptor!
& btw the p239 was in service long before 5yrs ago. The p226, p228, p239 have been around a while.
A blanket statement about "no one is complaining" about sigs is simply not correct. Many gun savvy NSW folks were not pleased to be issued sigs. And many carried something else when able. A lower maintenance and more consistent trigger , SA or striker, polymer would be a better choice IMO. However a pistol is about the least important chunk o metal one carries, and institutions spend their time on more important topics till something goes visibly & loudly awry.
El Pistolero
11-30-12, 18:44
It is my understandig as well as a widely-accepted fact that the West German-manufactured Sigs were better guns overall and as such I have a late-80s P226 on the way. But I also don't want to rule out the older Sigs that were marked 'Germany' vs 'W. Germany' after the unification, because I assume whatever they were doing to make great pistols continued even after the fall of the iron curtain. I'm looking to add P220 to my stable and would like to know up to about what year their QC started to slide, I'm guessing in the late 90s or early 2000s but I am still learning about Sigs so any help is appreciated.
The problem is the newer guns are more durable and require less preventative maintenance. Concern over small parts and QC aside the fact is a new production Sig that is proves itself reliable is better than an older one that has done the same because the milled stainless slides are just plain more durable and they are finished in ionbond or "nitron" as Sig calls it which is far superior to anything found on the older guns.
From what I know, SIG does NOT test fire a single round through their commercial guns. In regards to CS, they typically make the customer pay for shipping of guns back to them (fail).
My last Sig (non-LE) must have been manufactured with gun powder residue, and brass markings.
And Sig typically pays for shipping both ways. I know they did with my P290 when they upgraded it to the new trigger system.
OTOH when I called Glock to fix the stove pipes, and brass to the face issue they would not budge on making me pay for shipping to their facility.
Alaskapopo
11-30-12, 22:36
My last Sig (non-LE) must have been manufactured with gun powder residue, and brass markings.
And Sig typically pays for shipping both ways. I know they did with my P290 when they upgraded it to the new trigger system.
OTOH when I called Glock to fix the stove pipes, and brass to the face issue they would not budge on making me pay for shipping to their facility.
When I sent a Sig in for some work they quoted me one price and charged me a much higher one. When I asked about it they said they did not know I was in Alaska. I pointed out I told them I was in Alaska during the first email I sent them. I ate the price difference. Not good customer service not even an appology for making a mistake.
Pat
brushy bill
11-30-12, 23:43
When I sent a Sig in for some work they quoted me one price and charged me a much higher one. When I asked about it they said they did not know I was in Alaska. I pointed out I told them I was in Alaska during the first email I sent them. I ate the price difference. Not good customer service not even an appology for making a mistake.
Pat
Not surprising...sometimes CS is a response to the customer...and I'm no SIG fan.
Alaskapopo
12-01-12, 01:27
Not surprising...sometimes CS is a response to the customer...and I'm no SIG fan.
Ouch I am hurt.
Seriously the communication was by email. They made the mistake I pointed it out and at the very least they should have appolgized even if I was a complete ass like you're implying. Good customer service is about owning up to your companies mistakes and making an effort to make it right.
Pat
Is anyone besides me tired of these Sig QC threads?
When I sent a Sig in for some work they quoted me one price and charged me a much higher one. When I asked about it they said they did not know I was in Alaska. I pointed out I told them I was in Alaska during the first email I sent them. I ate the price difference. Not good customer service not even an appology for making a mistake.
Sending it in for warranty work, and sending it in for paid work are two separate things. But yes that was kind of shitty, but hey it happens.
Alaskapopo
12-01-12, 17:36
Sending it in for warranty work, and sending it in for paid work are two separate things. But yes that was kind of shitty, but hey it happens.
I understand if its warranty work they need to pay the shipping and get it down now. When its custom work I expect to pay for shipping. That was not the issue. The issue was making a mistake and then not appologizing for it and being rude when I broght it to their attention. I won't be dealing with Sig again.
Pat
I had and ditched
220 Combat
220 SS
226 German
226 SS
228 German
Now I have two Glock 10mm (20SF and 29SF)
I just love the 10mn round so I am a little limited. The Sigs where always reliable and never failed.
Both my 228 & 229 (.357 sig) have run flawlessly for thousands of rounds down range. Both of my guns are pre 2000 though.
rodinal220
12-02-12, 14:41
I too would not buy a newer SIG since the Kimber boys took over.Their web page with way too options/models makes my head hurt.
My old school SIGs with the folded slides served me well.My old P220 ran like a swiss watch and never failed.Very accurate,reliable and dependable.Yes,the crappy blue finish was prone to rusting,wipe with oily rag at end of shift,same with the grip screws.Replaced recoil springs and others when needed.Never had the trigger reset spring fail,never saw one personally,but SIG changed the design.
Changed out the nasty plastic checkered grips to Hogues and were a vast improvement,more durable and protected the trigger reset spring on the right side better.
Don't like the use of the MIM trigger and hammers,I like the big fat/thick parts,probably investment cast,that SIG used,just like a Ruger.
If its not an a folded slide/detachable breach block model I won't touch them.Some of the early stainless slide stuff can be hit or miss,I may buy one of the early all stainless P220s if I find one.SIGs customer service sucks like HK.
I too would not buy a newer SIG since the Kimber boys took over.Their web page with way too options/models makes my head hurt.
My old school SIGs with the folded slides served me well.My old P220 ran like a swiss watch and never failed.Very accurate,reliable and dependable.Yes,the crappy blue finish was prone to rusting,wipe with oily rag at end of shift,same with the grip screws.Replaced recoil springs and others when needed.Never had the trigger reset spring fail,never saw one personally,but SIG changed the design.
Actually the old style trigger return spring was prone to breakage, the move to the coiled spring was to prevent this. I know people like to blame the Cohen and the Kimber folks for everything, but this predates them.
Also you need to replace the roll pins every 5,000 rounds. If not the pins can break, which allows the breech block to come loose, which can then break the rails.
Don't like the use of the MIM trigger and hammers,I like the big fat/thick parts,probably investment cast,that SIG used,just like a Ruger.
It is funny that people talk about cast like it is hot shit. Until MIM came along everyone talked about cast like it was cheap crap that only lower end gun companies like Ruger would use.
On large parts like the trigger, and the hammer MIM has no issues. It is smaller more delicate parts that weren't designed with MIM in mind where the impurities on MIM can cause an issue. Like when Sig tried MIM extractors, they tended to break along the leg that stays inside the slide. So Sig redesigned the extractor so it can be made with MIM.
Other parts that haven't been converted to MIM don't have that issue. Now mind you, that can't be polished and reshaped as well as machined, and cast parts. But to the average user that won't mess with them, they will exceed the service life of the pistol.
Sig has made steady changes to the P series to make it more cost competitive with the polymer pistols, and in some cases more reliable. Like switching from the solid pins, to the spiral pins on stainless slides, or doing away with the badly designed internal stainless extractors (again German designed).
Personally I think Sig should design a polymer service pistol that sell and either drop the P series like a bad habit (like Hk does with older models), or make it a niche line that they only do a few runs a year of (like S&W does with much of their legacy line).
Sig doesn't test fire their guns. They just go out of their way to rub some jacket fouling on their feed ramps and inside the barrels, and sprinkle a little carbon fouling in them before they ship. :rolleyes:
Every Sig I've ever purchased new, whether it was from the early 1990s or 2012 had clear evidence of having been fired.
Personally I think Sig should design a polymer service pistol...
Maybe a striker-fired version of the P250 that Massad Ayoob has said in past year or so is under developement will be that gun.
Geez, I know. I really wish they would get their act together like S&W and Glock. They never have any problems.
Glock is half the price.
If I wanted a SIG, I would go with an older one (W. Germany). Too many people that deal with SIG on an insider level tell me me horror stories.
C4
I had a W German 220, nice piece.
morbidbattlecry
12-02-12, 20:15
So i've been eyeing one of them Mk25s. Probably not a good idea huh?
You have to find out whom the CEO is. The CEO who lowered kimbers quality is rumored be running SIG.....
So i've been eyeing one of them Mk25s. Probably not a good idea huh?
I have not heard or read one bad review about the Mk25. Dan's somewhat negative statement about it is a first. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one. In fact, it will probably be my next purchase. I fully expect it to be as problem free as the US made P226R that I use for work, which has 30k+ rounds through it.
So i've been eyeing one of them Mk25s. Probably not a good idea huh?
If you want one then get one. Clean and lube it and find out if it's good to go. Your chances of getting a turd from Glock is the same as a turd from Sig these days. With either choice you will have to shoot the gun a bunch to find out if its reliable.
Remember there is nothing wrong with the P226. So assuming Sig didn't let a lemon out the door your going to have a solid gun.
brushy bill
12-02-12, 21:43
I traded mine. They did nothing that a Glock or S&W wouldn't do as well or better at virtually half the cost.
You have to find out whom the CEO is. The CEO who lowered kimbers quality is rumored be running SIG.....
His name is Ron Cohen.
Glock is the gun that drove me to Sig. My P220s do one thing my Glock 30SF and 36 didn't. Work. For me, that was worth paying nearly twice the price.
brushy bill
12-02-12, 21:54
His name is Ron Cohen.
And he has taken SIG off the short list for quality/dependable handguns.
Alaskapopo
12-02-12, 22:34
Glock is the gun that drove me to Sig. My P220s do one thing my Glock 30SF and 36 didn't. Work. For me, that was worth paying nearly twice the price.
The sad thing is the 220 has some of the most problems in the series. Not a big fan of the Glock 36 either however its pretty much the least dependable Glock. Sounds like your married to the .45 is so the HK45 would be the best bet.
pat
Of the 5 Glocks I've owned, 2 were fine. The first was 1st generation 17 that I owned for over 20 years that probably saw 2500-3000 rounds a year for as long as I owned it. (This gun is still running today in the hands of a relative). I had a 21 that I bought when they were first introduced that probably saw 15-20K rounds throughout its life with me. Then I bought a 36 that had multiple FTE and FTF, sometimes with each magazine. I replaced with a 30SF that worked well for the first several hundred rounds then developed a failure-to-return-to-battery issue which got progressively worse until it was malfunctioning 100% of the time. A change of springs, trigger bar and a hapless trip to Glock (which resulted in a "problem not duplicated" ticket being included with the return) failed to solve the problem. My 21SF, which I bought shortly after the 30SF, developed the infamous trigger-bar rub and had FTRTB issues. 5 Glocks, 3 turds. 60% lemons isn't a good experience.
I'd own another Glock, and still may, but it would be in 9mm only. But given the ejection issues that seems to effect a principal portion of the 19 Gen 4 production line, I am not confident that Glock has gotten their own QC problems under control.
On the contrary, of the 9 Sigs I own or have owned (all but 2 being recent manufacture), only one has given me any problem, and that was a broken extractor on a P220 - which Sig replaced, sight unseen, based solely on my call to them.
Whatever Sigs QC problems, I haven't experienced them. Out of 9 Sigs, one broken extractor in a hard-run P220.
I've had really good luck with my P226 and it was made in the beginning of 2011, I have about 800 rounds through it without a problem but have not really ran it hard. I do plan on doing some classes with it so we will see how it does.
<ring, ring> "Sigarms"
"Hey Sig, it's me, the 1990's, I was calling to see if I could have my DA/SA design back?..." :D
In all seriousness, I fail to see Sig offering anything approaching modern design and performance, much less decent pricing. Some users apparently like the DAK triggers, but short of an admission of QC issues and an implementation plan to address them, why take the chance?
I've owned 3 W. German Sigs and even though they performed quite well for the time period, I wouldn't go back. There are too many better designs to choose from these days, usually at a lower price point to boot.
morbidbattlecry
12-03-12, 15:01
If you want one then get one. Clean and lube it and find out if it's good to go. Your chances of getting a turd from Glock is the same as a turd from Sig these days. With either choice you will have to shoot the gun a bunch to find out if its reliable.
Remember there is nothing wrong with the P226. So assuming Sig didn't let a lemon out the door your going to have a solid gun.
Oh thats good lol. The first glock i picked up was total junk.
A local gun store had Sig 2022 in 9mm and 40 for sale at $325 a pop on Black Friday. I think out of 200 people in line I was the only one to purchase a Gen 3 G19. Go figure.
i have had several recently bought(6-8 motntes) 229s and 226s in 9mm and had zero problems with either with hundreds of rounds thru them.
plus, on the couple of occasions i contacted cs, i was greeted and treated with the utmost respect and efficiency.
Sig has been taking a bashig here, but so have glock and s&w.
from my perspective , the sigs have been flawless.
My Sig 2022 is the only pistol I've bought in the last two years that didn't suck. I had a Gen 3 G19 that beat you up with brass and wouldn't run consistently, and a M&P9 that grouped about 7-9" at 25 yds in a rest.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
12-05-12, 13:00
So i've been eyeing one of them Mk25s. Probably not a good idea huh?
Brandon Webb's take: http://loadoutroom.com/3041/navy-seal-issue-mk25-a-personal-favorite/
I have over 10K rounds thru my Navy-- not one issue whatsoever. Compared to my Gen 3 G19 which had a habit of spitting spent casings into my face (which was remedied by 2 trips to Smyrna to convince Glock CS to replace the old ejector for a new one-- now, the gun runs great).
texasgunhand
02-08-13, 00:02
first glock i ever picked up wouldnt fire had to sqeeze the trigger twice to get it to fire. also sigs cs has always been good to me,no problems, you call they answer, thats good these days.:dirol:
first glock i ever picked up wouldnt fire had to sqeeze the trigger twice to get it to fire. also sigs cs has always been good to me,no problems, you call they answer, thats good these days.:dirol:
So the trigger reset itself without cycling? :rolleyes:
So the trigger reset itself without cycling? :rolleyes:
Must have been a hammer-fired Glock.
texasgunhand
02-08-13, 13:02
i dont know if it was even resetting??? you could sqeeze it as hard as you wanted and it wouldnt fire. ease up on it, sqeeze again and it would then fire, but it was one of the really early glock 9mm, from what i understand now there a good gun. i have a friend from my cop days who works on the guns for washington state that loves them. he has fired thousands of rounds through them, with no problems. i think any gun maker puts out a bad one every once in a while colt, sig,glock,etc, there just a machine.
the glock i was speaking of was bought as a duty weapon, but returned right after i shot it for him, so i never got to shoot another one. depending on were i was working and for who i carred 92-F or the old 1911.
ohh ya and as far as the mk25, if it was no good the navy seals would not use them.. i bought the m-400 becouse it was between that and a bushmaster or windham. also i shot a 226 for a while for a gun store that took it in on trade,as a favor, it fired flawlessly and was dead on. if i would have had the money to buy it i would still own it for sure.loved it...
And as far as the m-4 goes dont worry,you wont have to take yours into battle the army will give you one,and dont be suprised if its a bushmaster..lol
I have a MK25 with a little North of 2K through it using only the three supplied mags and it's performed perfectly.
I have a P229 9mm (non-rail German) and it's made it to about 1K so far without a hiccup.
Not many rounds at all through either one, but work fine and I carry the P229 regularly.
I have a 2012 manufacture Sig 226R (9), 229 SAS (9) and 229 (40). The 226 is highest round count, at just about 2,000 rounds fired, and the 229 pistols are newer and lower round count. I have yet to experience a single stoppage.
Maineshooter
02-08-13, 23:45
I know of one LE agency that issued P250s. They had constant problems and end up replacing a lot of parts (i.e. trigger bars on all the weapons). Serious issues - guns that just would not work. We are talking about 70-80 P250s in all. Sig never took care of the problems and the agency switched over to Glocks. I can guarantee they will never go back to Sig.
I can't speak for the other Sig models, the the P250 in particular seems to be a real gem.
Not sure about current quality, but I'm not seeing a huge reason to get a SIG over an M&P or Glock.
One more vote for the 2022. I have it in .357 and .40 and it has been without any problems at all. I got one of the first ones that came out. The German ones have the nicer Ilaflon finish (in my opinion)
Not sure about current quality, but I'm not seeing a huge reason to get a SIG over an M&P or Glock.
If a shooter is indifferent between a Glock, Sig or M&P, I would definitely say get the Glock, as is has the most accessories, easiest to user maintain, and straightforward to shoot.
The reason to get a Sig is because you DO want the DA/SA trigger, appreciate the accuracy, and are willing to put in the effort to learn to shoot the platform to its potential.
If a shooter is indifferent between a Glock, Sig or M&P, I would definitely say get the Glock, as is has the most accessories, easiest to user maintain, and straightforward to shoot.
The reason to get a Sig is because you DO want the DA/SA trigger, appreciate the accuracy, and are willing to put in the effort to learn to shoot the platform to its potential.
Whoa, now...this is far too rational.
That said....I had a 220, 226, 229, two 239s, and a 1911, and had zero problems with any. The round count was anywhere from 1,000 with the 239s to maybe 6,000 with the 226.
I did have to contact CS regarding the 1911 and had a horrible experience (circa 2007). I got rid of them only to consolidate to one gun, one caliber (Glock 9mm). I am thinking of getting rid of one of my Glocks as I may have an opportunity to get a 220.
S. Galbraith
02-09-13, 13:12
The reason to get a Sig is because you DO want the DA/SA trigger, appreciate the accuracy, and are willing to put in the effort to learn to shoot the platform to its potential.
I appreciate my W. German P228s and P220s as there is definately a nostalgia about them. However, I believe that newer pistol designs make up for some of the old Sig's weaknesses. As a comparison to the P228, I prefer the H&K P30. From a bench rest, the P30 is more accurate, has a better finish on the metal parts, and the polymer frame is appealing as it is lighter and resists scratching. The stock V3 trigger isn't appreciated by all, but it is easy to tune. Combine that with Todd Green's 91,000rd run on his P30 and the pistols durability and longevity is hard to rival. I also have experience with the HK45 which I would select over the P220 any day.
Sure a Sig still works well, so does a Colt Peace Maker. However, the difficulty to use or maintain a previous generation technology is usually higher in comparison to what is "new", as new technology addresses issues with the old.
As a long time HK shooter, I have a slightly different take on this, and recently started shooting the Sig as a winter project. Here are my thoughts, which I recently posted over on another forum.
---------------------------
For as long as I can remember, I have shot Glock and HK pistols. I really appreciated the quality, accuracy and reliability of the HK, and especially the hammer/long trigger of the LEM system. The problem is I shoot Glock pistols better than the HK, especially one hand. This has led to a yoyo between the hammer (HK) versus performance (Glock) tradeoff.
I last shot a Sig about 10 or 15 years ago, and then only a little. I never understood why anyone would want "two triggers," and assumed the Sig was foisted onto organizations largely as a risk management tool with the DA trigger to keep folks shooting themselves or others they didn't intend to. The use of the 226 by elite units of the Navy seemed curious, but I didn't give it too much thought. After following some TDA threads, about a year ago, including JV's experiment, I decided I ought to get a Sig, and figure out to shoot it -- both to round out my ability and satisfy my curiosity as to whether the platform was shootable. Early last summer, I won a GunBroker auction for a new 226R as a ridiculously low price, and off and on, over the last months shot a few rounds thru it.
About a month ago, I decided to focus on shooting the 226 as a winter project. Pretty quickly, I was very impressed by the Sig's accuracy. While that wasn't surprising, what was surprising was I actually liked the trigger. As I thought about the Sig's attributes, they seemed a good match for my interests. Here is what I liked:
1) The heavier, longer DA trigger and hammer are great for appendix carry. The trigger guard is large enough to work with gloves in a cold environment which describes where I live.
2) The DA trigger has great roll and is easy to get a surprise break with. It feels like a good revolver trigger, and while heavier, is easy to get a surprise break with than the LEM trigger. The SRT SA trigger feels like cheating, and right from the get go, I was getting faster splits than the HK or Glock.
3) The pistol is extremely accurate. I recall hearing second hand from SLG, that TLG tested a bunch of Sig pistols with a laser off sand bags, and they shot like 1-2 inches at 25 yards.
4) The 226 has been very reliable, and I haven't had a single stoppage in the approximate 2,000 rounds I have thru it. The Sig does not seem grip sensitive, and no matter how I hold it, including one hand, it has been reliable.
5) I like the construction of the magazines. They feel good handling, and they are trim enough that they seem to carry easier.
6) I really like how the E2 grip feels in my hands, and find it to have just the right amount of texture for carry and shooting.
7) It is fun to dry fire the Sig, because I can work the DA press without resetting the trigger, and then release the trigger just a tad simulating the SA second shot.
8) The pistol is extremely fast to do slide lock reloads with.
9) The 226 has very modest recoil.
10) .22 uppers are available for training, and mine seems to run with CCI AR Tactical ammo.
I dry fired the 226 a lot for about 10 days when I couldn't get to the range in Alaska, and then had my first dedicated live fire session with it Wednesday, when I put 1,000 +/- rounds thru it, and shot my G34 too for some comparisons. Pretty quickly, I was able to run the DA/SA transition without conscious thought. I have shot it some on successive days, and the pistol continues to grow on me. I am still working my grip to avoid interference with the slide stop, and hope I can be consistent with that. Otherwise I will trim it, like JV did. I am not going to quote times, because they only mean something relative to my performance with other platforms, but right off, I am seeing the potential for my performance with the Sig to be better than the Glock or HK.
Shooting one hand, the 226 rocks -- both shot one with the great rolling DA press, followed by that cheating SA trigger. When I think about my ability to shoot well with one hand, it comes down to aggressive prepping of the trigger, and frankly the SRT SA Sig trigger makes that a lot easier as it has so little travel.
I only wish I had figured this out years ago, and look forward to gathering more data.
GJM, your experience mirrors mine.
I guess we're in the minority, but to some like us, the DA pull is a good thing and we enjoy it.
I feel lucky to have been born with the ability to run any handgun pretty well right out of the box with no mods.
I appreciate my W. German P228s and P220s as there is definately a nostalgia about them. However, I believe that newer pistol designs make up for some of the old Sig's weaknesses. As a comparison to the P228, I prefer the H&K P30. From a bench rest, the P30 is more accurate, has a better finish on the metal parts, and the polymer frame is appealing as it is lighter and resists scratching. The stock V3 trigger isn't appreciated by all, but it is easy to tune. Combine that with Todd Green's 91,000rd run on his P30 and the pistols durability and longevity is hard to rival. I also have experience with the HK45 which I would select over the P220 any day.
Sure a Sig still works well, so does a Colt Peace Maker. However, the difficulty to use or maintain a previous generation technology is usually higher in comparison to what is "new", as new technology addresses issues with the old.
SIGs with the SS slides do not require any more maintenance than any other make currently made. The finish (Nitron) is also among the best in the business.
The older SIGs with the carbon steel slides, which you're talking about, do have crappy finishes and require more maintenance. You mentioned T Green. TG has stated that he has seen a lot of very high mileage (100k+ rounds) SIGs, and they all had the SS slides. He also mentioned that he would not recommended an older model with the stamped slide over the newer versions, for various reasons to include durability.
GJM, good post.
I prefer the DA/SA action over others. As I've said before, the SRT is a game changer. No striker fired trigger even comes close to it, IMO.
I was told that there's no way that I could be faster and more accurate with a SIG than a Glock by the TDA/SIG haters club on the forum. Well, the timer and targets don't lie. I'm glad to see that you're on your way to proving them wrong too.;)
No problems with Sig GTG.
beschatten
02-10-13, 03:08
one more sample, had a p226 made in 2012. i didn't have any issues but i sold it for other reasons.
fear not guys, sphinx's sdp is coming soon...
My first and only Sig is a M400, which was also my first AR. I bought it as a Black Friday Special from Wal-Mart for $860. I've only put about 500 rounds through it so far but it has been flawless. Firing everything from PMC Bronze to Black Hills mk262. Knowing what I know now, I may have gone Colt, but it was an impulse purchase and I didn't even know if I wanted an AR in the first place - I hadn't kept up with firearm forums for years so I didn't know of any QC issues with new Sigs. I guess I got lucky, but then again, I haven't really heard of too many problems with their M400s, mainly handguns.
After today's shooting, my 2012 Sig 226R is at 2,520 rounds since new without a single stoppage. Ran a bore snake thru it twice, and lubed the rails at 2,200 rounds, but no other maintenance.
LMT Shooter
02-11-13, 00:16
I've owned 5 SIGs since 1993 to present, no issues whatsoever with tens of thousands of rounds through them, with the exception of recoil springs & the pins in the slides on the German made guns, both of which are normal. All of the guns have several thousand rounds through them except my latest purchase. Other than riding the slide lock with my thumb & causing a failure to lock open after firing the last round in the mag, I have had only 2 malfunctions, both ammo related- 1 blown case & 1 high primer (an assumption on my part) that failed to fire one the first try but went on the second. The gun with the blown case survived quite well, it is an old German P226 that only had the extractor bent.
I think it's just a case of growing pains. The logisitcs involved with moving so much of your manufacturing overseas and the restructuring that the company must have gone under may have left QC a little further on the backburner than they intended. Once things settle in Exter, I have a feeling that Sig will return to its former glory - I believe it's already begun. People need to let them work out all of the kinks before declaring "SIG IS DEAD!"!!
Three Sig pistols (down to two now) and they’ve all been GTG. Combined 7100 rounds through and two passed the 2k challenge with flying colors (229 40 & 226 Combat). I sold a 229 Dark Elite 9 just because I didn’t shoot it much. Their biggest weakness is they come with shitty mags (Checkmate) from the factory (well, my 226 did but my 229 came with MecGars). I would recommend upgrading to MecGars, but that’s kind of difficult in the current climate.
I also have a 516 and only have 220 rounds through it but it’s been 100% also.
snowdog650
02-11-13, 17:44
I have a 2008 P226R (40 S&W) which I purchased new. It doen't get fired all that much anymore, but it still is my deisgnated HD sidearm. It has a total of 4900 rounds through it with 3 FTE ... which all occurred in the pistol's first 2400 rounds fired of WWB FMJ ammo. Since reloading with Hornady 155-grain XTPs over Power Pistol, I have not had a single malfunction in the last 2500 rounds.
I will caveat that statement with the fact that I haven't used the pistol for a class ... and can't remember a time when I fired more than 300 rounds in a single range session (usually closer to 150 per session). So, it definitely has not been run hard.
But ... I am happy with this particular specimen.
My EDC is a Gen 3 Glock 19 with no apparent issues. Couldn't carry the big 226 around all the time, and didn't want to spend $900 on another Sig ... so I went with the Glock and am pleased with both.
Tomahawk_Ghost
08-10-14, 22:07
I recently sold my old Beretta 92 fs and I'm thinking of buying my first Sig. It will be a M11 A1. How are these performing now? Looking through this thread it does seem they did have some "growing pains" as on poster replied. I own Glocks, H&Ks, Colts. Gun is for target shooting, home defense and CCW when the weather gets a little cooler.
I appreciate my W. German P228s and P220s as there is definately a nostalgia about them. However, I believe that newer pistol designs make up for some of the old Sig's weaknesses. As a comparison to the P228, I prefer the H&K P30. From a bench rest, the P30 is more accurate, has a better finish on the metal parts, and the polymer frame is appealing as it is lighter and resists scratching. The stock V3 trigger isn't appreciated by all, but it is easy to tune. Combine that with Todd Green's 91,000rd run on his P30 and the pistols durability and longevity is hard to rival. I also have experience with the HK45 which I would select over the P220 any day.
Sure a Sig still works well, so does a Colt Peace Maker. However, the difficulty to use or maintain a previous generation technology is usually higher in comparison to what is "new", as new technology addresses issues with the old.
Huh? I call bunk on this entire premise.
I recently picked up the Mark 25 pictured below. It is built and has functioned flawlessly, but I've not shot it a ton at this point.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s7/v152/p24407119-5.jpg
I'd love to see Sig do nothing but produce the original W. German style P220, P225, P226, P228, P232, and P239.
Their current line-up is chock-full of abominations.
LMT Shooter
08-11-14, 03:30
I'd love to be able to buy German made SIG's NIB again. Another P228 in my collection would be tits.
A year or two ago I would have said yes they do. Recently I would have said they improved tremendously. But....
We recently got a shipment of a dozen each of 226's and 224's and have had some minor issues. Fortunately their CS has improved and they have addressed the problems with their usual professionalism.
The majority of the weapons had sight issues (the 224's POI was way to the left on every single one of them) while the 226's had a few little issues like mag releases not retaining the mags and a pressed in pin (dont have my armores manual for id) coming out on its own.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-11-14, 05:14
1 2010 P239, 1 2010 P220, 1 2011 P220. Not an issue to speak of. I never personally saw the QC issues that so many spoke of. (I believe that they had it but I believe that many forum-goers often just repeat a line, even if they have no experience).
Since my M400 which has now seen closer to 2500 rounds without issue, I've purchased two P238s and a RSC Sports (custom shop model). The first P238 was and has been a dream out of the box - 100% flawless feeding it Golden Sabers, Fiocchi, and Critical Defense. So I picked up the RSC - once again, flawless out of the box with 0% problems in over 500 rounds of mixed HST, HST +P, Fiocchi, WWB, and others. My last Sig was another P238, the Sports edition that PSA had a sale on. From the first time I dry-fired it, I knew something was terribly wrong. The trigger would seem to stack for ages and then finally break randomly between 7-15 lbs. I tried disassembling the gun myself to see if anything was obvious, but it looked fine internally. After a 2 minute talk with Sig CS, I had a return label in my e-mail box, I printed it, sent it off and had a gem in the mail only six days later. The trigger is better than my other P238 now, and breaks around 4.5#. Plus I didn't have to mess with any FFLs - they just shipped it back to my house. They also included an extra mag for my troubles. That's what I call service. I know that a 25% failure rate doesn't speak too highly of their QC, but their customer service more than made up for it.
In this day an age it seems like more and more guns are having issues straight out of the box. This was almost unheard of when I started shooting in the 80s. When you purchased a gun (unless it was a Lorcin or something), it always came with a spent shell casing, and it always worked out of the box - at least that's how I remember it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149928-So-The-SIG-P227-Is-Still-Gonna-Be-A-POS-Right&highlight=signal4l
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