View Full Version : Rescue Co Workers...Lose Your Job...
This guy should have been made manager, not fired.
http://wtkr.com/2012/11/30/autozone-employee-fired-after-taking-action-against-fake-beard-bandit/
“I was in fear of my life as soon as he walked through the door and I see the gun. Your heart just starts pounding,” says Devin McClean, a former Auto Zone employee.
Devin McClean decided to take action after recognizing the Fake Beard Bandit.
“I waited for him to go up toward the front, I ran out of the restroom, ran out to my truck where I keep my own personal weapon, grabbed my weapon, came back into the store and confronted the guy,” says McClean.
“When I yelled “freeze” and I said “Stop, drop the weapon,” he threw his hands up with his gun still in his hand he started running,” says McClean. “I felt like it was my responsibility to step in.”
Please take the time to contact AutoZone if you disagree with their action.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/contactus/contactUs.jsp?breadcrumb=contactus
Extremely disturbing, specially after watching the clip. Worth a quick email no doubt.
Ridiculous.
Thwarting an armed robbery, potentially saving lives and catching the bad guy should overrule "store policy."
GeorgiaBoy
12-01-12, 21:03
I also recommend posting on their Facebook wall. We all know how quickly things get around in social media.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-01-12, 21:04
Email sent, f'ing cowards.
An Undocumented Worker
12-01-12, 21:04
They did him a favor, he now has time to find a job with a company that cares about keeping well trained and knowledgeable people employed.
JBecker 72
12-01-12, 21:14
But guys, he violated corporate policy. /Sarcasm
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Moose-Knuckle
12-01-12, 21:34
Sign of the times . . .
Don't stand up, kneel, just take it, resistance is futile, you can't fight back, toe the line, roll over and play dead, submit, et al. :suicide:
Email sent, f'ing cowards.
This. I told them unless they reinstate him, give him a raise, and change their absurd corporate policy to allow self defense, I'll be giving Napa and Advance my business from now on. (I was anyway. Autozone is for hip-hoppers and their clown cars)
In the domestic automotive community, it's nicknamed Vatozone. :D
If someone has the link to their corporate facebook page, please post it. All I see are individual store pages.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-01-12, 22:17
In the domestic automotive community, it's nicknamed Vatozone. :D
If someone has the link to their corporate facebook page, please post it. All I see are individual store pages.
http://www.facebook.com/autozone?ref=ts&fref=ts&rf=112327312126126
Autozone's policy towards firearms is ridiculous. The article is partly correct about not allowing them (concerning employees) in the store. They don't even allow you to have them in your vehicle while on a store parking lot. I know. A while back I ran one of their stores. Wasn't exactly my dream job.
-Jax
I can understand why they don't want employees to carry on the job. One accident, they get sued badly.
But in their privately owned vehicles? There's no reasonable risk of litigation because of that.
And as far as what mr. McClean did, he's a community hero, who broke no law. And he wasn't carrying on the job, but just happened to have his piece in his vehicle. He didn't even fire a shot. 100% by the book successful arrest.
GeorgiaBoy
12-01-12, 23:04
http://www.facebook.com/BoycottAutozoneInSupportOfDevinMcclean
Facebook support page I found. Be sure to like and share.
I can understand why they don't want employees to carry on the job. One accident, they get sued badly.
But in their privately owned vehicles? There's no reasonable risk of litigation because of that.
And as far as what mr. McClean did, he's a community hero, who broke no law. And he wasn't carrying on the job, but just happened to have his piece in his vehicle. He didn't even fire a shot. 100% by the book successful arrest.
Actually, he even let the dude leave when the dude ran, which was the right thing to do since he's not law enforcement and the situation being what it was.
I can understand why they don't want employees to carry on the job. One accident, they get sued badly.
But in their privately owned vehicles? There's no reasonable risk of litigation because of that.
And as far as what mr. McClean did, he's a community hero, who broke no law. And he wasn't carrying on the job, but just happened to have his piece in his vehicle. He didn't even fire a shot. 100% by the book successful arrest.
There's a million things I can get sued for at my retail business. My employees being armed is less of a concern than most of those. I put it right in my employee handbook that concealed carry was allowed with clearance by myself or my designated representative. That employee handbook has been seen by my insurance company and they didn't say a thing. Several of us carry every day at work. Anybody seeking employment with me is informed of my firearm policy during the interview process to allow them not to continue with the interview if they have an issue with it :D
Somebody needs to give this guy a job. Somebody better than Autozone.
Actually, he even let the dude leave when the dude ran, which was the right thing to do since he's not law enforcement and the situation being what it was.
Copy that.
He would've been entirely within the law (at least in this state) to arrest him and wait for the police.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-02-12, 11:11
If I owned the store , I'd fire him.
Nothing in that store is worth him or anyone else dying for. If I owned the store I don't want my employees risking their lives for a couple hundred bucks. When I was young and dumb and worked retail I thought the same way you guys do. You want to stand up to a robber in your house or on the street, that's on you. How much cash is in a register nowadays?
You want to be a mall ninja, at least sign up to be one.
And this Walmart delta force stuff does go wrong, like the idiots at Walmart that suffocated a guy.
Yes, it's your store and you have every right to fire him. There is no crystal ball to determine what the robber with a GUN would have done. He could have easily shot and killed everyone in the store even after the money was turned over and a tragedy would have occurred. It turns out Mr. McCleans actions prevented that from happening in the first place and only in this instance. A different time and place, a different outcome. That's life. I'm glad it turned out well. I believe Mr. McClean will have no problem finding future employment. He's a standup guy.
Voodoo_Man
12-02-12, 12:19
cannot comment on the website, doesn't let me submit.
Wow! It's been several years, but I've been in that autozone! He did the right thing IMO and autozone will get an email from me.
If I owned the store , I'd fire him.
Nothing in that store is worth him or anyone else dying for. If I owned the store I don't want my employees risking their lives for a couple hundred bucks.
Weren't there other people in the store? Did he not come to their rescue? :confused:
Selfish store owner thinks the only thing at risk is a couple hundred bucks, doesn't even stop to consider the human lives at risk. :o
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-02-12, 13:48
Weren't there other people in the store? Did he not come to their rescue? :confused:
Selfish store owner thinks the only thing at risk is a couple hundred bucks, doesn't even stop to consider the human lives at risk. :o
And in this Bearded Bandit or whatever his name is other robberies, what was the body count?
How many retail robberies end up as shootings?
If I owned the store , I'd fire him.
Nothing in that store is worth him or anyone else dying for. If I owned the store I don't want my employees risking their lives for a couple hundred bucks.
Everyone always assumes it's "just a robbery" until the robbers start shooting people.
And in this Bearded Bandit or whatever his name is other robberies, what was the body count?
How many retail robberies end up as shootings?
Every killer has his "first time."
I suspect if YOU were in your store and a MAN WITH GUN entered you'd probably use deadly force to protect yourself. Or are you gonna let him point a gun at you, demand money and assume he is only a robber and won't really shoot?
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-02-12, 14:14
Every killer has his "first time."
I suspect if YOU were in your store and a MAN WITH GUN entered you'd probably use deadly force to protect yourself. Or are you gonna let him point a gun at you, demand money and assume he is only a robber and won't really shoot?
You're going to draw from concealment with a guy pointing a gun at you to protect your bosses insured register?
If a guy gets the drop no me like that, he gets my wallet and that's the price you I pay for bad SA.
You'd trade a very slim chance of being shot at with a near certainty of getting shot at, all while in an inferior tactical position- that's truly brilliant.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I can't believe that I'm the only not taking crazy pils here. This is the exact opposite of what I read in the tactics forum here.
I can't believe that I'm the only not taking crazy pils here. This is the exact opposite of what I read in the tactics forum here.
You're not, but I decided to not to post the lengthy reply I had typed up last night.
Pursuing an armed suspect into a business in an attempt to thwart a robbery is foolish, at best. The Johnny Action routine flies in the face of every single piece of concealed-carry advice that I've ever heard or read... The best action would have been to act as a good witness after having escaped the store, up to even including following the suspect and provided direction of travel to police dispatch.
Autozone is very explicit about it's cash register policies, and there isn't supposed to be more than ~$250 in a given cash register if the employees act in accordance with company policy. Large bills and excess cash are placed in a drop-box below the register, and access to these boxes are limited to keys kept by store management, or locked in the store safe until needed.
There's also probably 5+ people in any given Autozone during the middle of the day, and I wholeheartedly agree about the very small fraction of retail robberies that turn violent. No lone robber worth their salt is going to stick around to shoot all 5+ people in the store over <$1000 in small bills... Especially given this guy's MO in the area, which is undoubtedly all over the news, including descriptions of the suspect.
I don't agree with Autozone's firearm policy, but I understand why they have such policy in place.
PA PATRIOT
12-02-12, 16:51
False courage with a gun will drive many to commit reckless acts which place more people in danger then not acting at all.
You're going to draw from concealment with a guy pointing a gun at you to protect your bosses insured register?
If a guy gets the drop no me like that, he gets my wallet and that's the price you I pay for bad SA.
You'd trade a very slim chance of being shot at with a near certainty of getting shot at, all while in an inferior tactical position- that's truly brilliant.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I can't believe that I'm the only not taking crazy pils here. This is the exact opposite of what I read in the tactics forum here.
No but IF I believe he might shoot me I'll take the first chance I get to deny him that opportunity.
Also you are making a LOT of assumptions again.
False courage with a gun will drive many to commit reckless acts which place more people in danger then not acting at all.
Read these:
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/dec/04/dunkin-donuts-shooting-suspects-are-cold-blooded-t/
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_c_palm_beach_county/west_palm_beach/dunkin%27-donuts-shooter-gets-9-life-sentences%3B-laughs-at-victim
I suspect the families of those killed would have loved for anyone to attempt any "reckless act of false courage."
http://www.facebook.com/autozone?ref=ts&fref=ts&rf=112327312126126
Posted on their Facebook page, thanks!
Also, sent this to their "Customer Service" department:
"Autozone has lost my business. After Autozone fired Devin McClean confronted an armed robber and possibly saved his manager's life (in Virginia) and Autozone fires him, Autozone does not deserve my business or anyone else's business. Autozone is a cowardly business and is PART of the problem in this country. We refuse to stand up to evil. Hasta La Vista, Autozone.
"
You're going to draw from concealment with a guy pointing a gun at you to protect your bosses insured register?
If a guy gets the drop no me like that, he gets my wallet and that's the price you I pay for bad SA.
You'd trade a very slim chance of being shot at with a near certainty of getting shot at, all while in an inferior tactical position- that's truly brilliant.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I can't believe that I'm the only not taking crazy pils here. This is the exact opposite of what I read in the tactics forum here.
You're not the only one. I just didn't want to drudge through another GD thread.
We're playing it very fast and loose with "rescue" in the title of the thread.
You're not the only one. I just didn't want to drudge through another GD thread.
We're playing it very fast and loose with "rescue" in the title of the thread.
The manager believed otherwise.
Devin’s manager is grateful.
“He was like “Thank you Devin, you really saved my life,” says McClean.
He was there, we weren't.
The manager is clearly an expert in tactics as it relates to confrontation in response to armed robberies.
Hero yelling "Freeze" and "Stop drop the weapon", has seen way too many cop shows. Which is funny because he actually failed to even detain the criminal, which is kind of the whole point when playing police.
Run into a store during an armed robbery and start yelling verbal commands. Right. Dumbass probably ran out because he had a fake gun.
The manager is clearly an expert in tactics as it relates to confrontation in response to armed robberies.
Hero yelling "Freeze" and "Stop drop the weapon", has seen way too many cop shows. Which is funny because he actually failed to even detain the criminal, which is kind of the whole point when playing police.
Run into a store during an armed robbery and start yelling verbal commands. Right. Dumbass probably ran out because he had a fake gun.
Well there are at least two people who BELIEVED the people inside were in serious danger and in need of rescue.
And once the guy hauled ass there wasn't much to be done. Do you think Devin should have shot the fleeing criminal? Was he supposed to run after him? Try and tackle him?
Hero yelling "Freeze" and "Stop drop the weapon", has seen way too many cop shows. Which is funny because he actually failed to even detain the criminal, which is kind of the whole point when playing police.
1) What would you prefer he'd said? "Pickles!!! Spaceship writing!!! Donkey!!!"
2). If he were "playing police" he would've arrived 5 min after the BG killed everyone and fled the scene.
3) Are you ok? Seriously.
I don't understand two things...
A. Why, when he was in bathroom didn't he call 911?
B. Why didn't bad guy drop gun?
.and related... why was it funny that he raised his hands with the gun in his hand.
Where is bad guy and where is gun?
Ok, 5 things....
Right or wrong something just doesn't make sense.
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-12, 23:33
"Pickles!!! Spaceship writing!!! Donkey!!!"
Sorry, but I laughed at that a lot more than I should have.
I don't understand two things...
A. Why, when he was in bathroom didn't he call 911?
B. Why didn't bad guy drop gun?
.and related... why was it funny that he raised his hands with the gun in his hand.
Where is bad guy and where is gun?
Ok, 5 things....
Right or wrong something just doesn't make sense.
A. Maybe he didn't have an Obamaphone.
B. Probably didn't want to leave any evidence behind but still hoping to not get shot.
Sorry, but I laughed at that a lot more than I should have.
All I know is if anyone ever breaks into my house I'm yelling "Pickles" before I shoot them.
:sarcastic:
All I know is if anyone every breaks into my house I'm yelling "Pickles" before I shoot them.
:sarcastic:
It just might be confusing enough to reset their OODA loop
PA PATRIOT
12-02-12, 23:39
Read these:
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/dec/04/dunkin-donuts-shooting-suspects-are-cold-blooded-t/
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_c_palm_beach_county/west_palm_beach/dunkin%27-donuts-shooter-gets-9-life-sentences%3B-laughs-at-victim
I suspect the families of those killed would have loved for anyone to attempt any "reckless act of false courage."
Your example is the exception and not the norm, I'm going from memory but if I recall correctly the FBI crime stats for 2011 showed a extremely low occurrence of gun fire during a occupied commercial robbery.
Now lets say while this robber was leaving the store are "hero" jumped in escalating the situation and are robber decides too shoot his way out. The resulting exchange of gun fire kills a innocent person in the store. Was it still a good call? What right does this hero have to voluntarily endanger others in the store? Like I said this guy was full of false courage because he had a firearm and wanted to play cops and robbers.
Edited to add,
Now I would have no problem if are hero waited outside on the cell phone with 911, heard a gun shot and decide enter to engage a active shooter. But it is always better if your not directly endangered to allow events to unfold without introducing another accelerant to the situation. Its just common sense to go with the greater odds that shots will not be fired especially after are hero was already safe outside the building.
Your example is the exception and not the norm, I'm going from memory but if I recall correctly the FBI crime stats for 2011 showed a extremely low occurrence of gun fire during a occupied commercial robbery.
Now lets say while this robber was leaving the store are "hero" jumped in escalating the situation and are robber decides too shoot his way out. The resulting exchange of gun fire kills a innocent person in the store. Was it still a good call? What right does this hero have to voluntarily endanger others in the store? Like I said this guy was full of false courage because he had a firearm and wanted to play cops and robbers.
Always assume the worst, it's easier to be wrong that way.
And we can play "what if" all day long. What if this guy was gonna call in 6 buddies and they were gonna rape and kill everyone and Devin scared off the point man.
It looks like the guy acted in good faith and put himself at risk to protect people he cared about. We need more people like Devin and less people like the guy robbing the place.
Bottom line is you weren't there, you don't know anyone involved and are simply making assumptions.
Edited to add,
Now I would have no problem if are hero waited outside on the cell phone with 911, heard a gun shot and decide enter to engage a active shooter. But it is always better if your not directly endangered to allow events to unfold without introducing another accelerant to the situation. Its just common sense to go with the greater odds that shots will not be fired especially after are hero was already safe outside the building.
So you are supposed to wait until the person you care about is shot BEFORE you take action to prevent it? Is that really what you are saying?
Christ sake if ever I'm in trouble please send a different cop to help me.
Magic_Salad0892
12-03-12, 00:56
So you are supposed to wait until the person you care about is shot BEFORE you take action to prevent it? Is that really what you are saying?
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g424/Magic_Salad0892/genius-meme.jpg
I'm not sure if that's what he was saying, but I had to post that.
From Larry Mudget's "Why Surrender is never an option"
"Handing over your life by surrendering to someone who is in the process of committing a violent crime against you is a form of suicide. Some survive but many do not. The monster gets to decide for you.
We have heard brutalized victims say, “The robber said that he would not hurt us if we cooperated.” Why would you believe anything that someone who is committing a crime against you says? He will be lying if he speaks. As we say in law enforcement, “If a criminal’s lips are moving while he is speaking, he is lying.” Criminals by definition are dishonest and should never be trusted or believed.
You have no doubt heard friends say, I would not resist a criminal, after all why would he kill me? This is stupid and naive. In law enforcement, we call these people “Victims by Choice” (VBC). There could be a long list of reasons why a criminal would kill you despite your cooperation."
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/why-surrender-is-never-an-option/12837/
Moose-Knuckle
12-03-12, 03:51
In the city I work for there have been two store robberies that ended in execution style murders of the store employees. The first was a small sporting good store that was robbed as it was closing early one Thanksgiving Eve. In short the store employees (mostly high school and college kids) were taken to the back store room and tied up on the floor with tape. They all thought they would be freed once the robbers left with the loot and the police arrived. Wrong, one of the robbers began executing the employees one at a time by slashing their throats from ear to ear. The only survivor played dead due to her throat not completely being severed. One of the suspects was shot fleeing the scene as he attempted to run over one of our officers with the get-a-way vehicle. The other two subjects both got a needle in the arm. The blood from those kids was high as the base boards in that store room. It was a horrific scene.
On one Christmas Eve several years back we had a check cashing place robbed where again the robbers tied the employee up in a back room thinking they were only there for the money, she was a mother of three and even though she was not a threat once they bound her they executed her with a gun shot to the back of the head. They are on death row to this day.
For those who have never heard of the case, read up on the Hi-Fi Murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders).
Moose-Knuckle
12-03-12, 03:53
From Larry Mudget's "Why Surrender is never an option"
"Handing over your life by surrendering to someone who is in the process of committing a violent crime against you is a form of suicide. Some survive but many do not. The monster gets to decide for you.
We have heard brutalized victims say, “The robber said that he would not hurt us if we cooperated.” Why would you believe anything that someone who is committing a crime against you says? He will be lying if he speaks. As we say in law enforcement, “If a criminal’s lips are moving while he is speaking, he is lying.” Criminals by definition are dishonest and should never be trusted or believed.
You have no doubt heard friends say, I would not resist a criminal, after all why would he kill me? This is stupid and naive. In law enforcement, we call these people “Victims by Choice” (VBC). There could be a long list of reasons why a criminal would kill you despite your cooperation."
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/why-surrender-is-never-an-option/12837/
This is an outstanging read as well. One I direct people to read often.
This is an outstanging read as well. One I direct people to read often.
Totally.
If I must die at the hands of a lowlife, it'll be on my feet rushing at the ****head with everything I've got. I won't put any faith in their good graces.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-03-12, 08:01
I'm not against people having a CCW to protect themselves at work but that doesn't make you even mall security. At work you don't have the same ability to avoid people, warn them off or run away like you do when you are not working and going about your life. A low life walks into your store you have to say "Hello sir!".
The logic and probabilities have been explained to you guys about this case and the guy acted incorrectly- there is no possible other conclusion that you can come to.
Would a lone police officer even barge into the store alone with a robbery in process?
You want to fight crime, get a badge or a cape. I don't want any of the general CCWers I've met, most of the people I have shot competitions with or any but a few of the people I know here doing a one man SWAT assault with my loved ones in the way over less than $250.
The chance that a retail robbery turns into a mass murder versus the chances of a tackleberry turning Autozone into a Tarantino movie set. You seriously think the first is far more likely?
I carry to reduce the probability of bad outcomes, not increase them.
Well there are at least two people who BELIEVED the people inside were in serious danger and in need of rescue.
And once the guy hauled ass there wasn't much to be done. Do you think Devin should have shot the fleeing criminal? Was he supposed to run after him? Try and tackle him?
I think if he perceived people's lives were in danger he should have shot him upon going back into the store.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-12, 11:43
Always assume the worst, it's easier to be wrong that way.
And we can play "what if" all day long. What if this guy was gonna call in 6 buddies and they were gonna rape and kill everyone and Devin scared off the point man.
It looks like the guy acted in good faith and put himself at risk to protect people he cared about. We need more people like Devin and less people like the guy robbing the place.
Bottom line is you weren't there, you don't know anyone involved and are simply making assumptions.
So you are supposed to wait until the person you care about is shot BEFORE you take action to prevent it? Is that really what you are saying?
Christ sake if ever I'm in trouble please send a different cop to help me.
As to your first quote,
We have the direct TV interview and the following news articles which give account of the event. This robber has been highly publicized for 30 prior robberies in the area and has never fired a shot from what I was able to research. Also this same bad guy robbed this same auto store in the past were no shots were fired so I'm placing my assumption on actual facts and not "What If" or "Maybe this would happen" to justify a stupid act which escalated a already bad situation.
As to your second quote,
Rushing in recklessly to a very volatile situation and forcing a armed encounter is never, ever the best option especially when your at a tactical disadvantage having to make a entry. So how is this helping any body? How is this improving the situation. No one was being shot at the time and the hero was safe outside the store so "NO" immediate action by are "Untrained" hero was required other then calling 911.
As to your last statement "Christ sake if ever I'm in trouble please send a different cop to help me" this is nothing more then your ignorance and lack of common sense in a adult conversion.
As to your first quote,
We have the direct TV interview and the following news articles which give account of the event. This robber has been highly publicized for 30 prior robberies in the area and has never fired a shot from what I was able to research. Also this same bad guy robbed this same auto store in the past were no shots were fired so I'm placing my assumption on actual facts and not "What If" or "Maybe this would happen" to justify a stupid act which escalated a already bad situation.
As to your second quote,
Rushing in recklessly to a very volatile situation and forcing a armed encounter is never, ever the best option especially when your at a tactical disadvantage having to make a entry. So how is this helping any body? How is this improving the situation. No one was being shot at the time and the hero was safe outside the store so "NO" immediate action by are "Untrained" hero was required other then calling 911.
As to your last statement "Christ sake if ever I'm in trouble please send a different cop to help me" this is nothing more then your ignorance and lack of common sense in a adult conversion.
You must be in admin. I'm an officer, and have been for a while. There's no way you're a half decent ground pounder and have an attitude like that, hence you must be a gold badge. I wouldn't want anybody on my shift with a submissive, "maybe the guy with the gun won't hurt me" attitude. There were a couple of officers that were driven out to an onion field one day that had that kind of perspective. As for the store robbery scenario, we have a murdered store manager in my AO that I'm sure wished that one of his employees would have returned to the store with a gun. If you want to risk lives, including yours, on statistics, then I definitely don't want you backing me up. I won't ever sit back and say "you know statistically speaking, this guy pointing a deadly weapon at me won't shoot me, so I'm good. I'll just hang out and be safe knowing that I have a better than 90% chance that the bad man won't hurt me." You really need to read the article posted by Larry Mudgett about never surrendering. You say that the intervening employee had "false courage," I say that is the definition of courage. I'd rather have a guy with the balls to face an armed felon, than one who hides under a car and hopes the mean man goes away. I'd much rather see someone get hurt fighting back, than have to show up and see a store full of people shot execution style as they lay on the floor.
You must be in admin. I'm an officer, and have been for a while. There's no way you're a half decent ground pounder and have an attitude like that, hence you must be a gold badge. I wouldn't want anybody on my shift with a submissive, "maybe the guy with the gun won't hurt me" attitude. There were a couple of officers that were driven out to an onion field one day that had that kind of perspective. As for the store robbery scenario, we have a murdered store manager in my AO that I'm sure wished that one of his employees would have returned to the store with a gun. If you want to risk lives, including yours, on stacistics, then I definitely don't want you backing me up. I won't ever sit back and say "you know statistically speaking, this guy pointing a deadly weapon at me won't shoot me, so I'm good. I'll just hang out and be safe knowing that I have a better than 90% chance that the bad man won't hurt me." You really need to read the article posted by Larry Mudgett about never surrendering. You say that the intervening employee had "false courage," I say that is the definition of courage. I'd rather have a guy with the balls to face an armed felon, than one who hides under a car and hopes the mean man goes away. I'd much rather see someone get hurt fighting back, than have to show up and see a store full of people shot execution style as they lay on the floor.
I am not a cop and cannot comment directly. However, one problem in our country is that no one stands up to the criminals.
Read "A Nation of Cowards" to get better perspective.
Someone enters brandishing a gun you HAVE to assume the worst and take appropriate action based on that.
You don't have time to Google the "beard bandit" (or whatever) and look up his history or anything.
--
As to your last statement "Christ sake if ever I'm in trouble please send a different cop to help me" this is nothing more then your ignorance and lack of common sense in a adult conversion.
If you are going to WAIT UNTIL I'VE BEEN SHOT to take preventative action then my comment is anything but ignorance. Please send anyone else who might be willing to be a little more proactive, especially if we are now talking about LEOs.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-12, 15:23
You must be in admin. I'm an officer, and have been for a while. There's no way you're a half decent ground pounder and have an attitude like that, hence you must be a gold badge. I wouldn't want anybody on my shift with a submissive, "maybe the guy with the gun won't hurt me" attitude. There were a couple of officers that were driven out to an onion field one day that had that kind of perspective. As for the store robbery scenario, we have a murdered store manager in my AO that I'm sure wished that one of his employees would have returned to the store with a gun. If you want to risk lives, including yours, on statistics, then I definitely don't want you backing me up. I won't ever sit back and say "you know statistically speaking, this guy pointing a deadly weapon at me won't shoot me, so I'm good. I'll just hang out and be safe knowing that I have a better than 90% chance that the bad man won't hurt me." You really need to read the article posted by Larry Mudgett about never surrendering. You say that the intervening employee had "false courage," I say that is the definition of courage. I'd rather have a guy with the balls to face an armed felon, than one who hides under a car and hopes the mean man goes away. I'd much rather see someone get hurt fighting back, than have to show up and see a store full of people shot execution style as they lay on the floor.
Its blissful to be young and inexperienced and I have seen many junior officers such as your self with this same mentality commit stupid, reckless acts and survive only but the grace of god.
The actions of this "Hero" was just dumb and reckless, plain and simple and I hope others who read your comments are not fooled into thinking this armed response was in any way a responsible and tactically sound act.
I have over 20 years in tactical response in a major Urban city and never made a bad call in which a innocent was harmed, So most likely I have more training a lone on this very subject then you have on the job.
So in closing I understand everyone will have a different opinion on how this event should have been handled and we will disagree but when you make assertions of another's life long career only to be cynical it only goes to show the immaturity and lack of judgment the author has.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-12, 15:41
If you are going to WAIT UNTIL I'VE BEEN SHOT to take preventative action then my comment is anything but ignorance. Please send anyone else who might be willing to be a little more proactive, especially if we are now talking about LEOs.
Its seems your locked into you narrow line of thinking so I will not debate the issue any further as I doubt doing so will improve your errors in judgment.
Its blissful to be young and inexperienced and I have seen many junior officers such as your self with this same mentality commit stupid, reckless acts and survive only but the grace of god.
The actions of this "Hero" was just dumb and reckless, plain and simple and I hope others who read your comments are not fooled into thinking this armed response was in any way a responsible and tactically sound act.
I have over 20 years in tactical response in a major Urban city and never made a bad call in which a innocent was harmed. So most likely I have more training a lone on this very subject then you have on the job so in closing I understand everyone will have a different opinion on how this event should have been handled and we will disagree but when you make assertions of another's life long career only to be cynical it only goes to show the immaturity and lack of judgment the author has.
I should actually thank you for this.
It is once again a reminder that "some" officers will NOT attempt to directly intercede even if they are responding to a "man with a gun" call involving innocent people.
It is a reminder that even if you call 911 and even if the cops arrive you still "may" be on your own to deal with any armed criminal who decides to become violent.
And that is why it should be no surprise to LEOs, especially those who hold these views, that some citizens may feel the need to engage in acts of direct intervention.
And for their efforts they will be criticized for endangering others, playing cop, exhibiting false courage or playing hero.
It will make no difference that in this instance there was also "no innocents harmed" despite that being the yardstick measure of success for non intervention.
They will say the "armed citizen" got lucky, they will never consider that the policy of "non intervention" also depends on luck quite a bit. They will use statistics as justification and that is all well and good unless you or somebody you care about happens to be a statistic from the other column on the page.
The reality again, for those who somehow missed it, is that ANYTHING you do can get you or somebody else killed, and this includes doing nothing. And for this reason, combined with the fact that everyone may likely find themselves "on their own", each person must be willing to make a judgement call and act accordingly.
I think it is reasonable that nobody wants to be in a gunfight if they can avoid it. If I don't have to challenge a person with a gun, I won't and neither will most other people. But if you "believe" you or others are in imminent danger a "man with a gun" certainly qualifies as a valid enough threat to support the use of deadly force in defense of ones self or others. And that seems to be what happened here and once the "threat" ran the situation resolved itself.
And finally, his actions were entirely lawful and that is why he wasn't arrested. And if any officers don't like that, they should take the advice they often give and "try and get the laws changed."
Its seems your locked into you narrow line of thinking so I will not debate the issue any further as I doubt doing so will improve your errors in judgment.
Silly foolish me hoping that a responding officer might intervene without me having to be shot first.
:sarcastic:
I'm confused. If a bad guy has the drop on me I shouldn't fight back cause statistically speaking I won't get killed and I'll be worse off escalating the situation. If I'm at work I shouldn't consider a guy waving a gun about as a threat to life or limb cause statistically speaking they aren't going to shoot anyone. So if all this is true why do I even need a gun??? Statistically speaking nobody ever gets shot, raped or killed so we are all just safe as can be. WTF.
In sorry but a man entering a store and waving a gun about is a definite threat and needs to be dealt with as such. Treating them as anything but that is idiotic at best. There are plenty of robberies that turn into executions, just ask the parents of a couple of teenage girls working a yogurt shop a while back. I'm sure they thought that if they handed over the cash and didn't do anything to escalate the situation they'd go home safe. Must suck to be the statistical outlier.
All I know is if anyone ever breaks into my house I'm yelling "Pickles" before I shoot them.
:sarcastic:
Not me. I'm yelling "Dee dee de deeee POPCORN!!" and then I'm throwing at TV at them. :D
Silly foolish me hoping that a responding officer might intervene without me having to be shot first.
:sarcastic:
Apparently I'm young and foolish enough to want to actually stop criminals and protect the city that pays me to do exactly that.
Phila PD- I'm sure your long and illustrious career will continue because it's hard to be injured when you hide around the block and wait for the bad guy to make his decision. I just hope that no one I care about is hanging in the balance while you wait out the statistics. I'm glad no innocents have been injured during your career, just like none have been injured in mine. As far as my experience goes, my department is young and foolish enough to let me be in charge of a shift of 12 officers. But hey, maybe I'll tell them the key to not getting hurt is to not intervene when criminals are on the loose. We train to respond to force with force, not a clipboard and a plenty of crime scene tape.
SteyrAUG- feel free to come visit my city anytime. We will try and help before you get shot.
I'm not saying what the guy did was great or tactically sound, but what I do appreciate is someone who refuses to be a victim, or watch as someone else is victimized. Maybe he should have just pulled out a cell phone and recorded a video instead of helping, like most of society. I have seen first hand what can happen to you when you put up your hands and say "please don't hurt me." You might be fine, or you might catch a bullet in the head. I know a family without a husband and father because he played the statistics.
SteyrAUG- feel free to come visit my city anytime. We will try and help before you get shot.
Thankfully I have met more LEOs like you than Phila PD.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-03-12, 18:03
How many people making comments here actually have a CCW?
Can I bitch slap your instructors for not being very good teachers.
A gun is a tool for a specific set of tasks. Think before you whip it out and start trying to hammer screws.
Obviously, we aren't going to change your mind, I just pray my family isn't around for your crime crusade.
Please use your brain before your balls and gun.
Go ahead and keep posting if it makes you feel more like a man. This thread has definately soured me on the M4 Festivus idea- some of you are complete knuckleheads.
Stay safe and stay away from me.
I'm still lost as to why in the face of an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, to yourself or others, you would start shouting verbal commands...
Obviously, we aren't going to change your mind, I just pray my family isn't around for your crime crusade.
What crime was committed by the employee? When was he arrested?
I'm still lost as to why in the face of an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, to yourself or others, you would start shouting verbal commands...
I wonder why police do that as well sometimes in identical situations?
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-03-12, 19:41
What crime was committed by the employee? When was he arrested?
Sorry, crime fighting crusade.
Just out of curiosity... for those of you that fall into what I will just call the shoot first ask questions later category. Let's say you are either of these.
A. On duty LEO that just happened to pull into that business and rather than the employee going back in armed, he tells you what is going on while still in parking lot. We will assume the patrol car is not seen by robber.
B. You are the employee and you fear for your life and your co-workers.
Here are the facts you know as A. or B.
1. This scenario fits exactly the profile of 2 robberies per month for the past year.
2. robber is armed, at register and has been handed a bag of cash by other co-employee.
3. There are 4 people in the store ( one being held at gunpoint by bad guy ).
Now,,, as
A. LEO - What is your solution in detail.
B. Employee - What is your solution.
This scenario requires that you be in bathroom when robber enters building. How you come to realize you are being robbed I don't know but your gun, should you choose to get it, is in your car and you are in the bathroom.
To be clear... A. and B are not present together. It's either, not both. I just wanted to place a LEO in place of the employee in the moment and you as the employee.
But what is the correct solution to the problem in each case. What do you do, what do you say, You have access to rear entry as well as front entry. You have full knowledge of the store layout. As LEO you have knowledge of last known location of other 3 employees. Basically consider yourself as LEO to be at least equally informed as employee was but you start from outside.
We know what happened in real life. The robbery failed. Money was dropped, criminal got away. No one got hurt.
Sorry, crime fighting crusade.
So now you are condemning him for being a crusader. So what other acts of "Batman Bravado" has he engaged in? Where is the pattern that makes this a crusade rather than an isolated incident?
Is everyone who is armed and acts in defense of self or others, but also NOT a LEO also a crusader?
Would his actions have become more permissible had he waited outside until somebody was shot first before taking any action? If yes, do you hope and pray that the person shot is somebody you care about?
How might things have been very different if he was employed at a movie theater in Seattle?
I'm still lost as to why in the face of an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, to yourself or others, you would start shouting verbal commands...
Mostly societal conditioning. Everybody yells freeze. Cops are told to issue verbal commands and they train to do so. Every CHL class I have taken suggests that verbal commands be issues. Every other class I have taken had us issue verbal commands before we fired on a threat. Maybe the threat can be diminished with the command, as this case thankfully was, maybe not. Just cause you issued a command doesn't mean you have to wait 30 seconds to see if its followed.
For the folks who suggest that this is an inopportune time to act. What is an opportune time to act?
PA PATRIOT
12-03-12, 21:17
How many people making comments here actually have a CCW?
Can I bitch slap your instructors for not being very good teachers.
A gun is a tool for a specific set of tasks. Think before you whip it out and start trying to hammer screws.
Obviously, we aren't going to change your mind, I just pray my family isn't around for your crime crusade.
Please use your brain before your balls and gun.
Go ahead and keep posting if it makes you feel more like a man. This thread has definitely soured me on the M4 Festivus idea- some of you are complete knuckleheads.
Stay safe and stay away from me.
I can't agree more!
This is what I hate about kids or so called professionals with delusions of grandeur as some here think its better to go in guns a blazing then look at the situation from a tactical stand point and act accordingly.
We are talking about a untrained civilian making a bone head move and some talking heads here think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Maybe I need a break from G/D as to many kids come here to play not knowing of what they speak which detracts from the reputation of the forum.
I'M done with this thread,
Have a good one Gentleman.
I can't agree more!
This is what I hate about kids or so called professionals with delusions of grandeur as some here think its better to go in guns a blazing then look at the situation from a tactical stand point and act accordingly.
We are talking about a untrained civilian making a bone head move and some talking heads here think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Maybe I need a break from G/D as to many kids come here to play not knowing of what they speak which detracts from the reputation of the forum.
I'M done with this thread,
Have a good one Gentleman.
Who went into Autozone "guns a blazing"? Guess I missed that part.
Who here was advocating that he should have "gone in shooting" besides one person asking why he didn't in the form of a baited question?
And damn kids are always causing trouble.
http://www.abc57.com/seen-on/wednesday/Florida-elderly-man-stops-armed-robbery-162848846.html
OCALA, Fla. -- An elderly Florida man became a hero after he stopped an armed robbery.
Surveillance video showed two men, one armed with a gun and the other with a baseball bat trying to rob an internet cafe.
It happened last week Friday. Samuel Williams, 71, jumped into action. He pulled out a gun and started firing.
Both 19-year-old suspects were shot and taken to a hospital in Gainesville.
Williams does have a license to carry a gun and does not face any charges.
If only Samuel Williams had been properly trained by YOU he'd have waited outside and BOTH of those criminals would have remained unharmed.
Here are some more "damn kids" who should have waited outside and not run into a situation with false courage and a gun making the situation more dangerous.
http://www.kens5.com/news/Armed-good-Samaritan-praised-for-shooting-suspect-in-trailer-park-standoff-165740216.html
EARLY, Texas -- A Good Samaritan with a good aim is credited with saving the life of a small-town cop who was under fire.
http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm
Herald-Tribune, Sarasota, FL
Driving to work one morning, Jim Povia, of Sarasota, Florida, saw a state trooper with his service pistol drawn, confronting a trio of male suspects during a traffic stop. Povia, a right-to-carry permit holder, pulled over and grabbed his .40 cal. pistol and went to the aid of the officer. The two held the men until backup arrived. The driver of the vehicle was driving with a suspended license and a gun was found in the rear of the vehicle. The three men were charged with felony weapons possession.
The Post, Houston, TX
In the finest tradition of armed citizens who take on crime in their communities, Texan Travis Neel helped save a wounded Harris County deputy sheriff's life. Witnessing the shooting by one of a trio of Houston gang members after a traffic stop just west of Houston, Neel--who was on his way to his pistol range--pulled his gun and fired, driving the officer's assailants away. An off-duty sheriff's deputy also came on the scene and joined Neel in covering the deputy, whose life was saved by his body armor. The trio was captured after a manhunt.
The Bulletin, Norwich, CT
While the situation ended without incident, armed citizen Michael Acree stood ready to lend a hand when a police officer stopped a carload of unruly teenagers outside his Salem, Connecticut, home. Noticing the youths scuffling with the officer, Acree retrieved his pistol and went out onto his lawn. When the youths saw Acree and his handgun, they calmed down and the situation ended peaceably. Acree earned the appreciation both of town officials and the officer.
The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, FL
Vincent McCarthy wasn't afraid to lend a hand when he noticed a police officer struggling with a man and woman at the side of the road. He tried to help subdue the man who was kicking the officer in the face. Despite McCarthy's warnings, when the man pressed his assault, the tour boat captain shot him once in the leg with a pistol he is licensed to carry and stopped the attack. Neither the officer nor McCarthy were seriously injured.
The Observer, Charlotte, NC
A North Myrtle Beach, N.C., citizen was credited by the city's public safety director with possibly saving the life of Police Officer Richard Jernick. Jernick had pulled over a suspected bank robber's car after a chase, when the suspect charged the cruiser and pointed a gun at the officer, who was still behind the wheel. At that point authorities said, the robbery suspect saw that James Beach, a semi-retired electrician who had joined the pursuit, had a pistol pointed at him. Startled, the robber ran for his car, and Officer Jernick was able to shoot and wound him.
The Star-Banner, Ocala, FL
When a drug-trafficking suspect fleeing a state police traffic stop ran through an Ocala, Fla., campground, he was spotted by the manager. Leonard Hicks armed himself and held the man at gunpoint for pursuing officers. An officer later commented, We wouldn't have caught the suspect if it hadn't been for him.
The Valley Daily News, Renton, WA
The armed man who intended to rob a Renton, Wash., gunshop should have been forewarned by the police cruiser he had to walk past to enter the store, and the uniformed officer standing just inside the door. Belatedly noticing the policeman, the would-be robber began shooting at him. The officer and a store clerk armed with a semi-auto pistol returned fire, fatally wounding the man.
The Press-Herald, Minden, LA
During a drug arrest in Webster Parish, La., a sheriff's deputy and a state trooper found themselves struggling with their two suspects. But four citizens observed the battle and, armed with shotguns, they came to the officers' aid--enabling them to make the arrests.
The Chronicle, San Francisco, CA
Dave Storton, a San Jose, Calif., police officer, was doing off-duty security work at an apartment complex when two burglars knocked the officer down and attempted to grab his revolver. During the struggle, one of the assailants bit off part of Storton's ear, but the two attackers were run off by an apartment resident who came to the rescue, armed with a shotgun.
The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK
Miami, Okla., motel owner Oba Edwards witnessed two policemen struggling with a man they were attempting to arrest and saw the man wrest away one officer's revolver, shoot and kill him. Edwards armed himself and fired a shot that allowed the remaining officer to recover his partner's revolver and fatally wound the attacker. The dead man was on probation for assault of a Texas police officer.
The Morning Herald, Hagerstown, MD
Police officer Chris Haldeman entered a Chambersburg, PA gold and silver exchange to arrest a suspect in a stolen property case, but the man resisted and a struggle ensued. The 220-lb. suspect had Haldeman pinned to the ground and was choking him when storekeeper Ken Cummings pulled his pistol and shot the officer's attacker in the leg. The man, a known felon, managed to escape, and Det. Haldeman was treated at a local hospital and released.
The Morning News, Dallas, TX
A stolen car bearing three escaped convicts was stopped on a Kansas highway by a state trooper. When the officer ordered the men from the vehicle, they sped away. With the trooper in pursuit, the escapees crashed in the town of Gorham; two were captured as they crawled free of the wreckage. The third convict attempted to flee on foot, only to be collared by several onlookers who had secured rifles from their pickups at the trooper's call for assistance.
The Times-Tribune, Corbin, KY
Corbin, Ky., motel operator Ray Miracle came upon state trooper James Phelps attempting to subdue two drunken occupants of a stopped auto and, carrying his revolver, went to the officer's aid. At that point, another car stopped and one of two men inside levelled a gun on Trooper Phelps. Seeing Miracle's drawn gun, however, they hastily drove off. Kentucky State Police rewarded Miracle with their highest civilian honor.
The Post, Houston, TX
Ralph Festavan watched as a heroin peddler attacked a Shreveport, La., policeman and grabbed the officer's gun. Festavan ran to the patrol car parked nearby and got a shotgun with which he shot and killed the pusher.
The Times-Union, Rochester, NY
Dennis Koch was putting storm windows on his fiancee's house when he observed a youth run into nearby woods. He passed the information on to a police officer who stopped by minutes later and told Koch he was searching for a burglary suspect. He gave Koch permission to assist him. Carrying his pistol, for which he has a permit, Koch found the youth hiding and held him in custody until the officer could place him under arrest.
The Memphis Press-Scimitar, Memphis, TN
A Missouri state trooper had been shot three times by two armed robbery suspects when armed citizen Robert Riley of Tiptonville, Tenn., rushed to his aid. Riley fired a small caliber pistol at the assailants until they surrendered. The law officer was then rushed to a hospital.
Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, Ontario, CA
Inland Valley, California, Humane Society officer Amy Murillo, 27, was responding to a local resident's pleas when she attempted to call off a vicious dog. But the animal turned on Murillo, jumping at her and causing her to fall against her vehicle. She suffered several bites to the head and chest from the crazed animal. Witnessing the young officer's plight, the resident who had summoned her help returned the favor by running to his house and retrieving a handgun. The dog then turned on the man who shot twice, killing it.
The Daily Facts, Redlands, CA
Redlands, California, sheriff's deputies credited an armed citizen with helping them capture four men and two juveniles who had just robbed a convenience store and pointed a gun at a plain clothes police officer as they made their initial getaway. Following a short chase all the suspects were captured. “One of the guys was detained at gunpoint by a resident who really helped us," Sheriff's Sgt. Bobby Phillips said. "He kept him there on the ground until we got there."
The Review Courier, Alva, OK
Things had turned ugly for Oklahoma Highway Patrol Officer Rick Wallace. He had found marijuana on a speeder, but was overpowered by the man before he could cuff him. Passerby Adolph Krejsek witnessed the altercation and came to the rescue, using his own firearm to help the trooper control the suspect. After helping subdue the assailant, Krejsek used the injured trooper's radio to call for help.
Associated Press, IN
In Indianapolis 17-year-old Gerald Watson stood near a policeman who questioned a robbery suspect when the suspect's accomplice appeared on the scene and shot the officer down. Watson, who had taught marksmanship at the YMCA, grabbed the fallen policeman's service revolver and shot the felon dead.
UPI, AL
In Saraland, Ala., the berserk husband of a woman charged with possession of illegal whisky killed one police officer and wounded another but, as he tried to make his escape, was shot dead by Carlos McDonald, the proprietor of a nearby shop.
UPI, AL
Two gunmen kidnapped an Eclectic, Ala., town policeman and used the officer to gain admittance to the home of Carl Ray Barker in the early morning hours. Barker, an Eclectic banker, was taken by one gunman into town to open the bank's vault, his wife, child, and the town policeman being held hostage by the armed companion pending a safe return from the bank. When the time-vault resisted opening, the gunman returned Barker to his house and, after some debate, took the policeman away with him to get tape for binding all hostages until morning, when another attempt was to be made on the vault. Barker, now held in his home with wife and child by the second armed man, asked if he could make coffee. The robber assented and Barker put water on the stove and got it boiling. "I took the scalding water to the living room," said Barker. "When he held his cup, I just poured the water in his face and grabbed his gun." Barker pistol-whipped the robber into submission, loaded a shotgun and waited for the return of the other bandit. When the door opened, the captive policeman dived out of the way and Barker killed the would-be bank robber with two blasts. Barker said he feared for his family's safety and, "I didn't want my bank to get a bad name about being robbed."
Mostly societal conditioning. Everybody yells freeze. Cops are told to issue verbal commands and they train to do so. Every CHL class I have taken suggests that verbal commands be issues. Every other class I have taken had us issue verbal commands before we fired on a threat. Maybe the threat can be diminished with the command, as this case thankfully was, maybe not. Just cause you issued a command doesn't mean you have to wait 30 seconds to see if its followed.
For the folks who suggest that this is an inopportune time to act. What is an opportune time to act?
By our policy announcing and expressing the officer's intent to shoot should be done unless impractical, ie not tactically prudent.
I don't know what the scene looked like when he walked back in after getting his gun...maybe he had the drop on the guy. Maybe he was unsure about his ability to hit what he was aiming at and his legal authority to shoot. Maybe he's a nice guy and didn't want to actually have to shoot someone.
Knowing when you can pull the trigger, and being able to do so w/o hesitation is such a huge part of carrying a weapon.
A uniformed LEO is at a huge disadvantage walking into an armed robbery. Before you get in the store, before you even get into a posistion to be able to do anything, if the bad guy sees you, he knows exactly who you are and what you intend to do.
In the case of the Autozone hero, I think it went as well as it did because the bad guy probably never saw him coming.
I'm not saying what the guy did was great or tactically sound, but what I do appreciate is someone who refuses to be a victim, or watch as someone else is victimized.
This.
Also, let me say this:
I live (for the time being) in a "duty to retreat" state, as opposed to a "stand your ground" state.
For those of you that advocate relinquishing all control of a deadly situation to the criminal: move. There are plenty of socialist bastion states that will punish anyone that refuses to run and cower when assholes threaten innocent bystanders. That way you can feel nice and safe and confident that no vigilante yahoo is going to make the bad men angry. And you can use no more tears shampoo and tampons too.
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