View Full Version : Why do I get suckered in....................
Don Robison
02-19-08, 19:54
Why is it that everytime someone asks if their newly purchased Oly is a POS on a forum and I give them honest opinion backed up with facts and a couple of tips to help it run more reliable; I get suckered into some some sort of dick swinging contest with some idiot who lives near the factory and has never seen a bad Oly. Purely based on his sampling of two, his and his buddies who broke a bolt, but Oly replaced it when they drove to the factory?
I guess I can't help it, I just have a hard on for inferior junk.
Sorry for the ramble, I just needed to vent.
Why is it that everytime someone asks if their newly purchased Oly is a POS on a forum and I give them honest opinion backed up with facts and a couple of tips to help it run more reliable; I get suckered into some some sort of dick swinging contest with some idiot who lives near the factory and has never seen a bad Oly. Purely based on his sampling of two, his and his buddies who broke a bolt, but Oly replaced it when they drove to the factory?
I guess I can't help it, I just have a hard on for inferior junk.
Sorry for the ramble, I just needed to vent.
You and me both. I feel your pain buddy. Seriously.
Paladin4415
02-20-08, 00:00
Internet "Experts" are everywhere.:rolleyes:
What... Oly's ROCK. My friend's cousin's neighbor's little Sister's ex-husbands dad's girlfriend's husband had one, and he said it was good. Oly only had to replace the bolt a few times.
Sorry couldn't help myself.
I go through phases of "why bother". Really it's the only answer. Starting to feel one of those phases coming on now, as frankly I just don't give a damn what "clips" some idiot puts on his M4 with a bipod and an airsoft "scope" on the carryhandle.
Remember this; most people that ask for advice aren't actually looking for advice, they're looking for you to validate their foregone conclusion. Once you understand this, the reactions most people have to "advice" are clearly understood. Whether they've already bought that Oly, or only have $700 to buy an AR and found out that Oly was the only one they could afford, or their sister's boyfriend's brother is a cop and he suggested Oly.... the result is always the same. They had/have their mind made up before they ever ask the question, and what they really want is for you to tell them "hey, that's a GREAT idea".
Easier just to move on and leave them be. It's not like they're watching YOUR back, right?
Failure2Stop
02-20-08, 03:59
Remember this; most people that ask for advice aren't actually looking for advice, they're looking for you to validate their foregone conclusion. Once you understand this, the reactions most people have to "advice" are clearly understood.
I agree completely.
It takes two well informed individuals to have a nearly objective discussion about a topic.
Don Robison
02-20-08, 06:02
Rob, F2S,
Great perspective and advice. I also go through the "why bother", then a kid comes along. I know in the back of my mind he just wants his crappy purchase validated. I'm getting better about just keeping my pie hole shut, but sometimes I just can't help myslef.:o
Trust me don, I know what you mean. There's also a fine line between helpful advice and being overly critical, although that's more about the other person's "feelings" than anything else.
What we're doing is better than the alternative, I suppose. When I was in grad school I had a professor that told us that he didn't want to teach us everything he could because he had spent years and years learning it and didn't think it was "fair" to just tell us without us having to work for it. :rolleyes:
Stupid as it sounds, I think implementing his view would save all of us a lot of trouble.
Failure2Stop
02-20-08, 06:39
When I was in grad school I had a professor that told us that he didn't want to teach us everything he could because he had spent years and years learning it and didn't think it was "fair" to just tell us without us having to work for it.
As much as I hate to say it, the guy might be onto something.
We know what we have done to acquire the knowledge-base we have. Unfortunately, due to the anonymous nature of the 'net, nobody else does. If LAV went unnamed, he would have the same people telling him he doesn't know what he is talking about.
However, since some of us have a well developed knowledge of a topic or concept as well as perspective, it becomes easier to identify good information.
It is very easy to fall into the thought process that you are paying more for brand x simply due to name, when brand y is just as good, especially to those that are new to a subject. While there may be a little bit of extra $$ to the Pony over say LMT, the price difference between a Colt and DPMS is not all in roll-mark. It takes time and experience to really understand that.
It also helps to remember that a lot of these folks shoot (maybe) 1000 rounds a year
So while they are dead wrong about "as good as"....they are probably right about "goood enough"
Most of them would grab their scattergun in an emergency because....well ....
Everyone knows a shotgun is the greatest HD weapon in the world....It has to be....I read it on the internet:D
I will NEVER give up the OLY fight! As some of you know I collect OLY horror stories and post them whenever someone asks about Oly's "tight tollerances".
They way I look at it is this....
Even if the Imbecile asking refuses to listen, there may be a handful of people with functioning brain cells who read the thread on choose NOT to make the OLY mistake!
Here's my latest good find! (and a good argument to use for those peckerheads who site oly's warrantee for a reason to buy the crap)
As posted on AR15.com
Originally Posted By 357mag:
I recently retrieved a cast Olympic Arms lower that I had purchased about 7 years ago and assembled it and pinned it to a Bushmaster upper that I had. When I tried to insert a magazine into the mag well it wouldn't go in all the way. Upon inspection, I discovered that the magazine well is located too far forward by 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch and the magazine contacts, and is blocked by the edge of the upper receiver. Have any of you ever heard of this problem? Anyone know about how Olympic Arms is to deal with? I wonder if there is any chance that they'd replace it.
357mag
UPDATE 1/10/08
I called Olympic Arms to ask about replacing my lower and they said that they WILL NOT honor the warrantee. Their explanation was that this lower and the upper that it supposedly came with were sold as a matched pair. Why am I not surprised.
Lesson learned: Steer clear of Olympic Arms.
Why is it that everytime someone asks if their newly purchased Oly is a POS on a forum and I give them honest opinion backed up with facts and a couple of tips to help it run more reliable; I get suckered into some some sort of dick swinging contest with some idiot who lives near the factory and has never seen a bad Oly. Purely based on his sampling of two, his and his buddies who broke a bolt, but Oly replaced it when they drove to the factory?
I guess I can't help it, I just have a hard on for inferior junk.
Sorry for the ramble, I just needed to vent.
I am just like you. Always wanting to assist with info and then get called every name in the book for it.
Send me a link so I can "help" them with their ignorance.
C4
I go through phases of "why bother". Really it's the only answer. Starting to feel one of those phases coming on now, as frankly I just don't give a damn what "clips" some idiot puts on his M4 with a bipod and an airsoft "scope" on the carryhandle.
Remember this; most people that ask for advice aren't actually looking for advice, they're looking for you to validate their foregone conclusion. Once you understand this, the reactions most people have to "advice" are clearly understood. Whether they've already bought that Oly, or only have $700 to buy an AR and found out that Oly was the only one they could afford, or their sister's boyfriend's brother is a cop and he suggested Oly.... the result is always the same. They had/have their mind made up before they ever ask the question, and what they really want is for you to tell them "hey, that's a GREAT idea".
Easier just to move on and leave them be. It's not like they're watching YOUR back, right?
I do the same (go through stages). I have come to realize that if the weapon is going to sit in the safe or see 300rds a year through it, then buy whatever you want.
If the person buys an Oly (for instance) and then asks for opinions on it, then I will give them an honest answer.
C4
As much as I hate to say it, the guy might be onto something.
We know what we have done to acquire the knowledge-base we have. Unfortunately, due to the anonymous nature of the 'net, nobody else does. If LAV went unnamed, he would have the same people telling him he doesn't know what he is talking about.
However, since some of us have a well developed knowledge of a topic or concept as well as perspective, it becomes easier to identify good information.
It is very easy to fall into the thought process that you are paying more for brand x simply due to name, when brand y is just as good, especially to those that are new to a subject. While there may be a little bit of extra $$ to the Pony over say LMT, the price difference between a Colt and DPMS is not all in roll-mark. It takes time and experience to really understand that.
Actually, that has happened (in regards to LAV). The window lickers on TOS ripped apart the article that LAV wrote awhile back.
I have always wondered how many armchair commandos does it take to tell an ex-Delta that he doesn't know what he is talking about?????:rolleyes:
C4
I will NEVER give up the OLY fight! As some of you know I collect OLY horror stories and post them whenever someone asks about Oly's "tight tollerances".
They way I look at it is this....
Even if the Imbecile asking refuses to listen, there may be a handful of people with functioning brain cells who read the thread on choose NOT to make the OLY mistake!
Here's my latest good find! (and a good argument to use for those peckerheads who site oly's warrantee for a reason to buy the crap)
As posted on AR15.com
I always love the "lifetime warranty" thing. When will people FINALLY realize that the manufacturer is most likely NOT going to replace something on your gun after 1yr (or 10yrs)??? It is simply a gimmick to attract people.
C4
Reminds me of the movie "Tommy Boy" with Spade and Farley.
"Anyone can slap a warrantee on a piece of shit!"
That is the OLY model, and foolish people buy off on it.
I will NEVER give up the OLY fight! As some of you know I collect OLY horror stories and post them whenever someone asks about Oly's "tight tollerances".
They way I look at it is this....
Even if the Imbecile asking refuses to listen, there may be a handful of people with functioning brain cells who read the thread on choose NOT to make the OLY mistake!
Here's my latest good find! (and a good argument to use for those peckerheads who site oly's warrantee for a reason to buy the crap)
As posted on AR15.com
Oy. Oly. :rolleyes: It brings back sad memories of a gun show several years ago at The Big E in Springfield. A "dealer" unveiled a table full for pre-ban AR-15's. I spotted them across the hall and was drawn like a magnet to them. In Massachusetts, pre-ban anything raises your radar, (we're still under the AWB). Making a B-line, I simultaneously called Nice-Touch to check my bank/credit card balance as my grin grew wide. There were CAR's A2's, collapsable stocks and flash suppressors everywhere - Nirvana. There were people scrambling for rifles and magazines and credit cards. By the time I got to the table, there were only a few left, there was literally a line of people clutching rifles. I grabbed a CAR-copy and hung onto it like a sale at Filenes Basement. Then I looked at the receiver - they were all Olympic Arms. After witnessing one Oly with a cracked receiver and another disassemble itself in the lane next to me a year earlier, I was sad to say the least and a bit teary to those who had not done their research....I wonder how many of those buyers still beam at their purchase?
I'm not new to the AR-15 world, but I have been asleep at the wheel when it comes to makes, models, accessories, staking, 1:7 1:9, vertical grips, no vertical grips, rails, lights, lasers, BUIS, on and on and on. So much has changed - much for the better, but the growth of the market brings with it the growth of junk. What makes me grateful for a site like M4carbine.net is the wealth of information, opinions and ideas. From rob_s obvious disdain for anything bipod on a carbine, to the superb advice on the Sully stock, to the magnetizing read on sight pictures with hooded vs non-hooded sights, I am appreciative of what I read here - regardless of my opinion. The now infamous "chart" and the accompanying thread was possibly one of the most comprehensive undertakings I've seen online anywhere - it drew me into a place where knowledge and opinion abound and has aided me immeasurably in putting together the best M4-variant I can, (rest easy rob - no bipod included...;) )
Who knows the motivations of those who join, buy and post. I'm sure there are a fair amount of MN's out there looking to hang as much crap on their rifles as possible - many with an impressive bank account and an equally impressive desire to load their carbines to the hilt. There's also recreational shooters who appreciate the design and will spend their lives punching paper. There's still others who will train and may have their lives depending on their equipment. There is one commonality however - a kinship to the history, design, development and function of the AR-15/M-16 and it's nice to know that diversity can be respected...
From rob_s obvious disdain for anything bipod on a carbine...
Damn! Now I have to go buy a bipod and put it on a carbine.:p
I have owned a Colt sp1,built a bushmaster car-15.sold them during the ban made good money.and i jumped on russian Ak bandwagon.well after training at fort Knox with a colt m-4.I wanted another AR style weapon .I was trained on the M-4 slept with it ,ate with it!!LOL But I don't drink the Kool-aid.so i planned on buying parts and putting a gun together for my needs and as close to the m-4 I had at Knox ,well no "go fast switch".
But I read enough to make a good call on junk.and just looking at parts .I knew that you stay away from OLY ,plus when i picked one up at a Fun show.I began to see what all the fuss was about.it just didn't feel like a solid weapon,more of a aftermarket rattle trap.the upper and lower had play between them.I even showed a guy looking to by a AR next to me that the "Play" that the dealer was say was "no big deal" was a big deal.he ended up buying a nice used bushmaster.
but with that one guy taking his chance on what I was tell him was the truth,and to see the smile on his face when he saw me leaving,he walked up with the bushmaster,and told me the dealer that sold him the bushmaster had nothing good to say about the Oly.and he thanked me:D and so if someone hates what I have to say about a question they ask.about a lower made product ,than they should not ask,but if a oly fits ones needs just as a plinker and fits their budget.than i wish them all the luck in the world with it.But if you are going to defend your life with a weapon know your weapon and firearms makers before you buy.But the people who are Colt follower and thinkanthing but a colt is junk bugs me too:rolleyes:
But the people who are Colt follower and thinkanthing but a colt is junk bugs me too:rolleyes:
Colt fans are not that extreme most of the time. I own a lot of non-Colt builds... most with Colt Bolt groups and such but.... I'm not a Colt or nothing shooter (just for reference on where I'm coming from)
Anyway... the differences between Colt and others is easily quantifiable. And there's even a Chart here itemizing the specific differences in the assembly and manufacture of a COLT AR compared to other common ARs.
The bottom line is that COLTs are built to a higher standard. It's not even debateable.
don't get me wrong Colt is the Gun that is the top of the food chain in Ar platform(well Hk p416 is badass too)The price and the whole no sells to the public gets me I think colt really turned their back on civillian shooters for a while .But if i can find good price colt products, I buy knowing that this product is good to go,But i have ran into a few that are those people that don't want to hear anything about a gun being as good as a colt look at Bushmaster in our training we had some bushmasters at Knox and thats got to hurt Colt.you know also when buy used Ar parts that when you see Colt's name in the part you know this part will last and take some abuse.I just bought a colt carry handle to go on my build and colt h buffer .I guess you always have hardcore folks but you can get good parts from other dealers too.But Colt will always have the best QC
Failure2Stop
02-20-08, 11:56
. . .But i have ran into a few that are those people that don't want to hear anything about a gun being as good as a colt look at Bushmaster . . .
Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, but Bushamster is not in the same league as Colt, Noveske, or LMT. It might be fine for you, and that's ok, but they aren't made for fighting.
I am glad that Bushmaster is in the business- they bring a lot of visability to the AR, and many new shooters into the scene.
They just aren't in MY business.
And sometimes it takes some time for that to sink in.
Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, but Bushamster is not in the same league as Colt, Noveske, or LMT. .
Not in my Cheerios:p !!!!I 'm not a big fan of Bushmaster either.I loved my Colt at Knox,But there are a few companies out there with good quality parts.I got a Double star lower after finding out LAR makes their lowers same company that does Bushmaster and a few others just didn't have to spend the money for their snake .the price was right and part looked to be good .Now I got to think about what to put on the top.Noveske and LMT are some of the best .
decodeddiesel
02-20-08, 12:15
Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, but Bushamster is not in the same league as Colt, Noveske, or LMT. It might be fine for you, and that's ok, but they aren't made for fighting.
I am glad that Bushmaster is in the business- they bring a lot of visability to the AR, and many new shooters into the scene.
They just aren't in MY business.
And sometimes it takes some time for that to sink in.
Boy that is a hard one to get across. Seems in my office everyone is on the "we need ARs before O'Bama bans them" kick. So everyone is coming to me with which one should I get. Of course the usual players here are Oly, DPMS, and Bushmaster. Luckly one of my co-workers came across rob_s's excellent AR comparison chart on here. After an hour or so long sit down with them explaining what everything means on the chart I was able to sway most away from Oly/DPMS and into an LMT or Colt. Unfortunately given the price and rebate currently ongoing with the S&W ARs a few got away...oh well :rolleyes:
Unfortunately given the price and rebate currently ongoing with the S&W ARs a few got away...oh well :rolleyes:
That is still much better than an OLY or DPMS. Any time you save someone from the OLY mistake, and Angel gets its wings! :D
The bottom line is that COLTs are built to a higher standard. It's not even debateable.
Thanks for that. I have engaged in that debate a few times with some "Colt Bashers", who seem to fall back on the "Colt screwed us" position, when the try and make the point that "all AR's are the same"...Jesus. I used to wax poetic about how laying on a table full of other AR's, my Colt stood out - fit, finish, quality, function, accuracy - there was no mistaking it. I may have an opportunity to buy it back soon and hope to....
Unfortunately given the price and rebate currently ongoing with the S&W ARs a few got away...oh well :rolleyes:
I see nothing wrong with this option, as long as they stick with the non-railed version (unless S&W has gotten a handle on those wayward gas blocks). With the $100 rebate, the M&P15 is a FANTASTIC buy from most vendors.
decodeddiesel
02-20-08, 12:35
I see nothing wrong with this option, as long as they stick with the non-railed version (unless S&W has gotten a handle on those wayward gas blocks). With the $100 rebate, the M&P15 is a FANTASTIC buy from most vendors.
Hey rob, just have to say that chart of yours made my life a lot easier. Thanks a lot man!
I agree it is a fantastic buy, and given they are all engineers at my company, most of the those rifles will see nothing more then throwing ammo at paper and steel at our test site. So in this capability the S&W A-OK. And yes, I talked them out of the railed version.
ETA: I guess that old soldier deep down inside of me has a hard-on for Colt, and is very impressed with his LMT.
I can't even begin to count the number of times I have begun to post to threads on several boards similar to the one you mentioned, and then canceled them before submitting, because I didn't feel like having to defend for four pages the opinion that they asked for.
It's not like you walk up to em on the range and say, " Hey, excuse me, did you know your rifle was a steaming pile of inproperly assembled SH&^?". If they don't really want to know, then don't ask.
If all you want is an ego stroke, go show your POS off at the local airsoft, paintball, flea-market, discount bait and tackle shop.
-RD62
I think the problem comes down to no one wants to admit that they are wrong or made a mistake. I would also venture to say that a large majority don't buy their AR's for serious business and don't do their research. They figure that they'll spend a little less and cut a few corners to save money. I have guys all the time that say "Well I have a Bushhamster at home and it never gives me problems." My response is work in the armory for a couple of weeks and see all the issues that they have and then look at what the TM's and you'll clearly see the shortcuts they take. I try and give the guys and advanced class every so often and when I am done they usually go "WOW!" I didn't realize how screwed up that thing really is.
the whole no sells to the public gets me I think colt really turned their back on civillian shooters for a while .
This is what really bothers me. The last time I bought a colt AR it was a pre-ban competition sporter hbar. After I started looking for a new AR, a carbine, and I realised Colt didn't want civilians with their guns, it was a huge turn off. I would rather spend a couple hundred extra and get the Noveske without all that for Military and Law enforcement only BS pasted on the side.
I realised Colt didn't want civilians with their guns,
I'm curious to know how you came to this realization?
.... and the trap is set.:cool:
I'm curious to know how you came to this realization?
well are all the colt M-4 model all marked" LEO and MILITARY ONLY"?thats all I have seen.I have owned a Colt sp1 .so I am not a "Colt basher"the upper are starting to get into the shooters hands again .But that is mostly dealers who have bought from colt.I am sure i don't know the whole story .I just remember when the ban hit in 94 .a ton of people were blasting Colt on their lack of concern for the CMP world and focused on just its Military contract.I have seen your post Rob ,You know your AR History and products.why do you think so many think this of colt did we get false info?I loved my Colt M-4 in the Army .I wish i could get a colt but the money is just not there right now.but I also don't believe that Colt is the ONLY Ar-15/M-16 .There are other companies putting out some good AR platforms.Oh and be gentle with me I am new.But always have my learning ears on.:)
First I want to dispell any notion that I'm a "Colt only" guy. Just a couple of posts back I mentioned that the M&P15 is a great buy.
With that said, I don't know about the past history of Colt, all I know is that I've never had a problem buying any Colt product I wanted, unless they just happened to be out of stock/production. I don't know where the notion that they are "anti-second-amendment" came from. All of my Colts (6520s and 6933s) were marked "Military and Law Enforcement Only", but all came with cards to join the NRA.
Colt has never done anything to me to indicate that they don't want me to have their products, and their inclusion of the NRA information makes me think just the opposite.
I'm just always curious to hear where people get the opposing notion.
I'm curious to know how you came to this realization?
Why can I not buy a gun that legally meets the criteria for civilian ownership without the companies stamp on it that it's not for my use? Maybe I don't want the MT6400C. I am not bashing the quality of their product, it is excellent and I do own one of their civilian marketed Sporter rifles I bougt in 1992.
I understand I can go buy a 6920 or remington 1187P, I just wonder what's the motivation to stamp these things the way they do. If the LE and Military models have better features why don't they leave the stamp off, and why are they not also on the civilan site (colts mfg) instead of just Colt defense? The company made those choices and people read things into it.
Why can I not buy a gun that legally meets the criteria for civilian ownership without the companies stamp on it that it's not for my use? Maybe I don't want the MT6400C. I am not bashing the quality of their product, it is excellent and I do own one of their civilian marketed Sporter rifles I bougt in 1992.
I think maybe you're misunderstanding the stamp. Is that the whole basis of your opinion?
Is there anything in Colt's policy that keeps you from buying the firearm in question?
I think maybe you're misunderstanding the stamp. Is that the whole basis of your opinion?
Is there anything in Colt's policy that keeps you from buying the firearm in question?
No, see that is the whole point. I know I can legally buy it, but the company likes to put a stamp on it that it's not for my use. Why do they put the stamp on it when it doesn't need it? They must be making that statement for some reason? Why is the exact same gun not listed on the Colt's Manufacturing site (civilian) if it's legal for us to own? Why did they make that choice?
decodeddiesel
02-20-08, 14:30
That is an interesting point. Why do manufactures still stamp their lowers as "Restricted Military/Government Law Enforcement/Export Only"? I mean it is not an issue to the informed, such as the folks on this forum, as we are all aware with the sunset of the AWB. However I can tell you that I personally have been told by a local gun store owner that I could not purchase the Colt 6920 because of this marking. He insisted he would have to order one without the marking to sell me :rolleyes:, so I went down the street and purchased an LMT Defender 2000 :D . Clearly mis-information abounds and it really make me wonder why many firearms (and magazine) manufactures still use this marking.
a guy I saw out shooting once was all about the big "Colt is evil"his theory (Not mine)was that stamp was a get out of jail free card for colt.that if a civilian got one of their weapons and used it in a crime ie McHold-up and shot a bunch of people ,that victims family could not sue Colt for making such a evil weapon.Colt clearly would state this is for LEO and Military only its clearly marked"what was he doing with it?Now I rolled my eyes and packed my guns(1colt sp1) up and left.I think that the demand for LEO sales were not a big seller and that this is the overstock.that stamp means nothing now the Ban has sunset right?But if they are still stamping the lowers with this on new production:confused:
No, see that is the whole point. I know I can legally buy it, but the company likes to put a stamp on it that it's not for my use. Why do they put the stamp on it when it doesn't need it? They must be making that statement for some reason? Why is the exact same gun not listed on the Colt's Manufacturing site (civilian) if it's legal for us to own? Why did they make that choice?
Don't read too much into it. You can buy the gun, who cares what it says on the side?
I already spent my money on it. Therefore, it must be the best. -- Internet Commando Motto
How many times do you hear people ask, "I just bought a xyz ... what do you think of them?" Happens here, happens on other forums, happens at the range. People look into the quality and suitability of their choice after it's been made.
It's like buying a car, taking it off the lot and driving straight to the nearest book store to pick up Consumer Reports so you can see if you made a good choice. :o
Somewhere there is a Hi-Point discussion group and those people think they have the best, most underrated, high-quality pistols on the market. Heck, there's probably even a place where they feel that way about Glocks. :D
Maybe I'm just weird for thinking about the stamp so much, but it did bother me because I wondered what the motivations were for continuing to do it.
If the LE6920 is a great gun (which it is), why not make a model 6920 that has the exact features, is listed on the Colt's manufacturing website, without the Stamp?
It bothers me (the marketing), so I choose something else. We're all happy. :Moving on, nothing to see here :D Sorry if I hijacked.
Colt's watering down of their civilian earmarked products likely came from the sue-happy anti-gunners itching for the big payday. Most gun manufacturers circled their wagons when the lawsuits from private citizens and the legal saber-rattling from AG's started stirring the pot. In a way, who can blame them? Motivated attorneys, a liberal judge and a sympathetic jury could cost billions - look at big tobacco. I noticed at the same time that Colt's civilian customer service didn't completely dry up, but lost a step in my opinion and at least in my experience with an ailing Colt Defender. Companies like the formerly British owned Smith and Wesson completely caved - much to the disdain of the shooting public, (hint, hint lost sales). S&W has inched their way back up from the ashes and I believe Colt took a middle ground - offering neutered rifles for the general public in an attempt to keep the vultures at bay...
I was certain after the AWB, that Colt's Civilian, or "Commercial" division would get back to offering products we want. A look at their website and the "M-4 Match Target" (http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/MTM4.asp) demonstrates how far away from civilian sales Colt remains. Anyone who has seen the "Match Target M-4" (MT-6400C) laying next to a 6920 will notice some obvious differences, (pinned stock, awful muzzle brake) and not so obvious differences, (lower grade finish, more loose feeling, poor carrier finish). I cannot prove it, but suspect that parts and receivers that do not make the grade for LEO/Military contracts, find their way to the "Commercial Site". I had the fortune, (or misfortune) of actually handling the LEO Only and the MT6400 side by side. Anyone who cannot tell the difference in fit and finish quality needs to be checked out.
Sure, one can go out and buy the Colt one chooses, but it still would be nice if Colt recognized it's civilian market by producing and advertising rifles that we want.
TraderJack
02-20-08, 15:44
Why is it that everytime someone asks if their newly purchased Oly is a POS on a forum and I give them honest opinion backed up with facts and a couple of tips to help it run more reliable; I get suckered into some some sort of dick swinging contest with some idiot who lives near the factory and has never seen a bad Oly. Purely based on his sampling of two, his and his buddies who broke a bolt, but Oly replaced it when they drove to the factory?
I guess I can't help it, I just have a hard on for inferior junk.
Sorry for the ramble, I just needed to vent.
See what you started here!!!!:p
But seriously, don't stop helping people. There are very serious 'students' out here that are really trying to learn about weapons the 'right' way. That's why the come to a place like this forum after all.
Buck up! The reason the gun store commandos trash any information is because they're jealous and wish they had known enough to have given the advice first!
Take a walk. Play with the dog. Go to the range and take a favorite hoser.
Don't let it get to you my friend. It ain't going to go away anytime soon!
Regards,
TraderJack
QuickStrike
02-20-08, 17:37
When asked for advice you should just say Oly, bushmaster, etc... suck and back it up with the chart.
If they don't take your advice, then screw em'. They deserve a crappy gun. :cool:
I try not to take these discussions too seriously when people are trying to say guns from crap brands are as "good as" or "better".
well are all the colt M-4 model all marked" LEO and MILITARY ONLY"?
/snip/
Mine doesn't.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/ARFCOM/A2.jpg
it's not worth fighting over...
having friends that work at gun ranges/stores, i've given up a long time ago. when you're being told that plastic CAA rails with UTG carry handles and FACOGs on Oly rifles are just like the "military uses" it gets really old... and hearing the same rehashed AK47 debates and other bullshit... the only thing i'll discuss are WWII rifles and 1911s...
the real icing on the cake was the story of a guy looking to buy a fully transferable M16, given the option of an OLY or Colt, he was recommended the OLY for it's high quality and durability. Since most of the failures they've seen are with those garbage colt rifles...
i just build/buy rifles made out of the best components i can afford... luckily i can afford products from Colt, LMT, Larue, Magpul, Vltor, TangoDown, Aimpoint, and Nightforce...
Countyshooter
02-20-08, 18:58
[QUOTE=M4builder;129318]Mine doesn't.
That's because it is a "Match Target" model.
RAM Engineer
02-20-08, 19:07
from xkcd today. How apropos...
http://xkcd.com/386/
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/beren412/duty_calls.png
WarPigM-4
But i have ran into a few that are those people that don't want to hear anything about a gun being as good as a colt look at Bushmaster in our training we had some bushmasters at Knox and thats got to hurt Colt.you know also when buy used Ar parts that when you see Colt's name in the part you know this part will last and take some abuse
Really......please.. more details...
Don Robison
02-20-08, 19:33
I am just like you. Always wanting to assist with info and then get called every name in the book for it.
Send me a link so I can "help" them with their ignorance.
C4
The thread died a quick death. I said my piece and left it with a final post of Rob's chart:D I figured a visual product for the kid asking the question would answer more than swinging 3 foot internet dicks. It worked the kid who started the thread pm'd to say thanks for the info. The other intertards who jumped in will continue to lick the windows.
Thaks for the offer though.
that is stepping on Colt's toes.most of the Bushmasters we did see were in the first phase of BRM.they had bushmaster M-4s with air lines to the barrel to simulate recoil in a virtual range,the bolt went back and speakers would give a rifle shot sound.the lazer registered on the screen and was read by a computer ,the mags had computer chips in them to count the number of times the bolt moved to count rounds fired.it was very costly set up .why did colt not get that ?on the m-203 range there was a mix of A2 colt and bushmaster.Mostly colt.now the M-4 we were issued was Colt.Colt did file a lawsuit against Bushmaster years ago before BM got the military contract.but that cuts into colts pocket if the Military allows other M-16 makers in the door.the set up was in the Millions with all the computer hook ups ..the only time i ever had problems with my colt was mag problems .except when I crawled through the Night Infiltration Course.I was in about a foot of water and sand the M-4 was seized shut it took me ,holding the butt on the ground and a Drill Sgt to put the heel of his boot on the charging handle and jump up to open the bolt to get the sand to give so I could get the upper off.other than that my M-4 was a great weapon.I hope that answered it .
Don Robison
02-20-08, 19:43
Trust me don, I know what you mean. There's also a fine line between helpful advice and being overly critical, although that's more about the other person's "feelings" than anything else.
Funny thing is, the guy who asked the question didn't get pissy. He asked if it would fall apart if he shot. He had been researching and had read they had a bad rep. It was a couple of other folks coming to save the besmirched reputation that caused the problem. I didn't think I was overly critical with this statement that I actually took care to save the kid some dignity.
Will it fall apart on you next week, probably not. Could you have done better? Definately. Get the gas carrier key properly staked, stake the castle nut, replace the buffer if it came with a plastic buffer. If you aren't doing any carbine classes or running it hard you'll be fine.
Are they "junk" guns. IMHO, they aren't worth owning, there are just too many other carbines in the $750-$850 price range that are better assembled and with higher quality parts.
Funny thing is, the guy who asked the question didn't get pissy. He asked if it would fall apart if he shot. He had been researching and had read they had a bad rep. It was a couple of other folks coming to save the besmirched reputation that caused the problem. I didn't think I was overly critical with this statement that I actually to care to save the kid some dignity.
what maker was he asking about?is it the oly?
Don Robison
02-20-08, 19:52
from xkcd today. How apropos...
http://xkcd.com/386/
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/beren412/duty_calls.png
That's some funny stuff right there. I just sucked copenhagen up my nose.:eek:
Don Robison
02-20-08, 19:54
what maker was he asking about?is it the oly?
Yea, he just paid $700 for an Oly at a gun show and then decided after the purchase to do some research. He was actually afraid it was going to blow up day one after a little research.
Yea, he just paid $700 for an Oly at a gun show and then decided after the purchase to do some research. He was actually afraid it was going to blow up day one after a little research.Good lord for 700 he could have done a lot better.just little reading time save you money.Have anyone ever had a Oly blowup on them :confused: .man that would be scary !:eek:
I hate say this, but never in my 10 years of active duty in two different branches did I ever see any military units issuing or using Bushamsters. The only time I ever saw select-fire Bushamsters was on ACOE projects in Iraq and of course those that were purchased by PMC/ PSC's for contracts overseas due to the high numbers needed (supply and demand).
As for that other system you were referring to we also had those when I went through basic in 1986, but honestly I didn't know shit from Shinola in those days so I have no clue who made them.
that is stepping on Colt's toes.most of the Bushmasters we did see were in the first phase of BRM.they had bushmaster M-4s with air lines to the barrel to simulate recoil in a virtual range,the bolt went back and speakers would give a rifle shot sound.the lazer registered on the screen and was read by a computer ,the mags had computer chips in them to count the number of times the bolt moved to count rounds fired.it was very costly set up .why did colt not get that ?on the m-203 range there was a mix of A2 colt and bushmaster.Mostly colt.now the M-4 we were issued was Colt.Colt did file a lawsuit against Bushmaster years ago before BM got the military contract.but that cuts into colts pocket if the Military allows other M-16 makers in the door.the set up was in the Millions with all the computer hook ups ..the only time i ever had problems with my colt was mag problems .except when I crawled through the Night Infiltration Course.I was in about a foot of water and sand the M-4 was seized shut it took me ,holding the butt on the ground and a Drill Sgt to put the heel of his boot on the charging handle and jump up to open the bolt to get the sand to give so I could get the upper off.other than that my M-4 was a great weapon.I hope that answered it .
I hate say this, but never in my 10 years of active duty in two different branches did I ever see any military units issuing or using Bushamsters. The only time I ever saw select-fire Bushamsters was on ACOE projects in Iraq and of course those that were purchased by PMC/ PSC's for contracts overseas due to the high numbers needed (supply and demand).
As for that other system you were referring to we also had those when I went through basic in 1986, but honestly I didn't know shit from Shinola in those days so I have no clue who made them.
I was wrong .I did not mean to come across as the were issue weapons.they were only used as training aids.they did have the tri-burst ,that was the only reason I brought it up was I was not expecting to see BM at Training.I thought that was cutting into Colt's military contract,BM has no weapons in the M-4 class or A2 under issue.so the only ones there was training aids but when it came to range time it was all about the Colts and FN's.Thank you for setting me straight Failure2stop1:) I am going to learn a ton from this site I stand corrected
from xkcd today. How apropos...
http://xkcd.com/386/
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/beren412/duty_calls.png
nuff said :D
TexasAggies
02-22-08, 01:35
Remember this; most people that ask for advice aren't actually looking for advice, they're looking for you to validate their foregone conclusion.
I couldn't have put it any better....
I wounder what makes someone act like that? It's the same way with trucks Ford vs Chevy, ect
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