View Full Version : Selling Personal Firearms
Over the past few years, I've bought a few firearms, but lately I've found myself selling off most of them in favor of keeping a few setups that are practical and I can rely on.
I recall a story about some ex-FBI agent who was busted for selling personal firearms. That made me curious - what is the limit, or rather, what is a good guideline to staying within the "legal" limits? What about the guy who's always trying the latest and greatest, but only keeps a few while wanting to get rid of the rest (not me, but I'm curious as to where the line is drawn).
What documentation should be kept, even if they are send/sold via FFL? Any info would be great.
Over the past few years, I've bought a few firearms, but lately I've found myself selling off most of them in favor of keeping a few setups that are practical and I can rely on.
I recall a story about some ex-FBI agent who was busted for selling personal firearms. That made me curious - what is the limit, or rather, what is a good guideline to staying within the "legal" limits? What about the guy who's always trying the latest and greatest, but only keeps a few while wanting to get rid of the rest (not me, but I'm curious as to where the line is drawn).
What documentation should be kept, even if they are send/sold via FFL? Any info would be great.
There is no set number or limit. The laws are purposely vague and mostly at the discretion of ATF to "decide" intent. The phrase is "engaged in business for profit."
Now FOPA 86 was specifically designed to protect the advanced collector who engages in profitable sales and transactions but is NOT a firearms dealer. A private collector who has built a large collection should be able to sell every single one of them without having to become a FFL.
Sadly in the last decade, mostly with the help of idiots on the internet, the protections of FOPA have been forgotten, ignored and undermined by legislation.
The reality is if ATF decides you are an unlicensed dealer you can be prosecuted for the sale of a single firearm. Obviously higher volume, and more importantly advertising, draws more attention and makes you more likely to be noticed.
So be advised there is no defined line, there is no magic number.
Additionally, there is no record keeping requirement for non dealers. And if you did maintain such records that could actually be used as evidence of "selling guns for profit" as keeping of records is typically something done by a business.
You are obviously a lot safer selling them through a FFL as it is less likely you will be seen as an unlicensed dealer if you are selling them to a FFL first or having a FFL consign them. Obviously you won't realize the same profit potential that way. And more than anything else it comes down to how aggressive your local ATF branch is and IF any of your guns should find their way into prohibited hands, even if you didn't sell them to those individuals directly.
Now what is "likely" is that nothing will happen as hundreds of people sell more than a few guns every day on Gunbroker. And I hope the above hasn't scared you. But the safety net you are seeking simply doesn't exist.
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 21:29
Theres no set limit.
What it falls under is buying and selling guns cannot become a 'for profit' operation and you can't make a business out if.
You can sell guns off to enhance your collection.
So for instance you can't go buy 20 lowers, and later sell them all off for a profit. That's making it a business or livilyhood.
What you can do is sell off firearms to go buy something else for personal use or say you inherit 20 guns and sell them off. You didn't start out with the intent of buying and selling guns to turn a profit. I wouldn't really consider rare or unique firearms to fall under this unless you are doing it often.
I actually did get a visit from 2 ATF agents because of buying 'military type guns'. They were combing dealer records all across the border states for people who were buying things like AR's, AK's, SA pistols, ect, and if you bought more than a few they would pay the person a visit. Nothing came of it but they are out there looking for people buying more than a few guns of that type, and want to make sure they aren't straw buying for the cartels or turning them for profit. The ATF also imposed the multiple long gun reporting for border states but that was after my visit. They were nice enough just irks me when that same agency is running thousands of guns into Mexico themselves then going through my dealer's records like it's their own little registry just kept externally rather than internally. Just a bit more legwork for them...What I was most surprised at is the information they had. They had my military records, photos of my sibling and in laws, and a spreadsheet type thing of all the guns they had 4473's for plus the 4473's for. The dudes 'folder' was quite thick. They do their homework and if you're on their radar past their initial contact they can and will hammer you. Just don't be dumb about buying and selling and you'll be GTG. Based off my contact they don't care about casual buying and selling. I had a few guns I'd sold and just told them as much. Didn't care. It was obvious I wasn't buying guns to be sent to MX or straw buying for other people.
xrayoneone
12-03-12, 21:29
There is no set number or limit. The laws are purposely vague and mostly at the discretion of ATF to "decide" intent. The phrase is "engaged in business for profit."
Now FOPA 86 was specifically designed to protect the advanced collector who engages in profitable sales and transactions but is NOT a firearms dealer. A private collector who has built a large collection should be able to sell every single one of them without having to become a FFL.
Sadly in the last decade, mostly with the help of idiots on the internet, the protections of FOPA have been forgotten, ignored and undermined by legislation.
The reality is if ATF decides you are an unlicensed dealer you can be prosecuted for the sale of a single firearm. Obviously higher volume, and more importantly advertising, draws more attention and makes you more likely to be noticed.
So be advised there is no defined line, there is no magic number.
Additionally, there is no record keeping requirement for non dealers. And if you did maintain such records that could actually be used as evidence of "selling guns for profit" as keeping of records is typically something done by a business.
You are obviously a lot safer selling them through a FFL as it is less likely you will be seen as an unlicensed dealer if you are selling them to a FFL first or having a FFL consign them. Obviously you won't realize the same profit potential that way. And more than anything else it comes down to how aggressive your local ATF branch is and IF any of your guns should find their way into prohibited hands, even if you didn't sell them to those individuals directly.
Now what is "likely" is that nothing will happen as hundreds of people sell more than a few guns every day on Gunbroker. And I hope the above hasn't scared you. But the safety net you are seeking simply doesn't exist.
This.
I had a buddy that received a what was basically a cease and desist letter from ATF on recent firearms sales. I checked the letter and it was legit. The interesting thing is they partially quoted 921(a)(21)(C) but not the entire statute, which as StyerAUG pointed out is vague.
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 21:41
This.
I had a buddy that received a what was basically a cease and desist letter from ATF on recent firearms sales. I checked the letter and it was legit. The interesting thing is they partially quoted 921(a)(21)(C) but not the entire statute, which as StyerAUG pointed out is vague.
Did he get a visit prior to the letter being sent?
The ATF agent mentioned that to me, and said its cases where some residence has a bunch of 4473's to the address, they go there, and the people don't have the guns in their possession. It's not implicity illegal to buy and sell guns but he said they've gone to less savy neighborhoods, and some chick has 15 4473's for handguns in her name but doesn't have the guns. In those cases they'll take further action. In cases like me where I had sold a few but had the vast majority of them with me it's just someone who has bought a healthy amount of firearms, and they move on to the next person. But they do their homework before the visit to get a picture of who they are contacting, and of course it's common sense someone in a low income area probably shouldn't have the money to go buy a shit ton of handguns in a short period of time.
So for instance you can't go buy 20 lowers, and later sell them all off for a profit. That's making it a business or livilyhood.
There is NO statute that says you cannot.
And if you were a collector who only collected LOWERS (just as some people only collects grips) there is nothing that prevents you from buying 20 lowers and then later deciding to eliminate them from your collection by selling them.
And FOPA "should" protect the collector in that instance. The problem is the general perception that many promote on the internet that such activity is automatically illegal.
Now if a person purchases 20 lowers with the INTENT to resell them for profit then THAT would be a violation.
The actions of course in both situations are exactly the same however the INTENT in scenario A should be "legal and protected" and the INTENT in scenario B a "violation."
The only difference is INTENT and we have arrived at the point where ATF has the sole discretion to decide what the INTENT actually was.
Bottom line is FOPA has been severely undermined and the volume collector who engages in multiple trades and transactions is once again "at risk" and we are approaching the environment that FOPA was written specifically to protect us from in the first place.
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 21:49
It's my belief that if you bought 20 lowers, and sold them for a profit the ATF would spank you. You can go to trial, and let the jury decide after spending tens of thousands on a lawyer and going through hell even if you get found not guilty.
I think it would be pretty hard to argue against, myself, that making a profit on them wasn't your intent to a higher degree than the gov arguing only someone selling for profit as a business would buy 20 generic lowers with no collector value and sell them off to make money.
I actually did get a visit from 2 ATF agents
How many had you sold, if you don't mind me asking? And over what time period?
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 22:29
Less than 20 on the 4473's but had sold or traded in about 3 or 4 of those.
So I had well over half the guns they had 4473's on. Not really a candidate for selling illegally.
It's my belief that if you bought 20 lowers, and sold them for a profit the ATF would spank you. You can go to trial, and let the jury decide after spending tens of thousands on a lawyer and going through hell even if you get found not guilty.
I think it would be pretty hard to argue against, myself, that making a profit on them wasn't your intent to a higher degree than the gov arguing only someone selling for profit as a business would buy 20 generic lowers with no collector value and sell them off to make money.
I'm not trying to say that wouldn't happen, I'm only saying what FOPA should and should not protect.
The problem is of course yet another arbitrary statute at the discretion of ATF to decide intent.
And the items in question need not have ACTUAL collector value for collectors to want them. I know people who collect Beanie Babies and pop bottle caps. Some people even collect Century Arms firearms.
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 23:38
I'm not trying to say that wouldn't happen, I'm only saying what FOPA should and should not protect.
The problem is of course yet another arbitrary statute at the discretion of ATF to decide intent.
And the items in question need not have ACTUAL collector value for collectors to want them. I know people who collect Beanie Babies and pop bottle caps. Some people even collect Century Arms firearms.
Yeah I know just that lawyers are expensive and you're dealing with the most powerful government in the history of the world. Up to each one of us to see if testing that is worth it.
There were a couple aspects of the FBI agents case that drew the attention of the ATF. One particular fact was that the FBI agent was turning over weapons very quickly - much faster than most collectors which he claimed to be. In some cases, he purchased a firearm and then sold if FOR PROFIT prior to actually taking possession of the weapon. While not explicitly illegal, high volume traffic such as this will get noticed by the ATF if it keeps happening.
Belmont31R
12-03-12, 23:51
There were a couple aspects of the FBI agents case that drew the attention of the ATF. One particular fact was that the FBI agent was turning over weapons very quickly - much faster than most collectors which he claimed to be. In some cases, he purchased a firearm and then sold if FOR PROFIT prior to actually taking possession of the weapon. While not explicitly illegal, high volume traffic such as this will get noticed by the ATF if it keeps happening.
Kinda my point. If the ATF/gov decide to take you to court you pretty much have to be able to argue your case better than they can. Hard to do if you are buying 20 generic lowers with no collector value or selling guns before you even take possession.
Not saying its right or the intent of the law but I'd personally want not want to walk that tight rope arguing with the government what a vague law means.
I seem to remember there was more to the case than just buying and selling some stuff but the details are fuzzy.
There were a couple aspects of the FBI agents case that drew the attention of the ATF. One particular fact was that the FBI agent was turning over weapons very quickly - much faster than most collectors which he claimed to be. In some cases, he purchased a firearm and then sold if FOR PROFIT prior to actually taking possession of the weapon. While not explicitly illegal, high volume traffic such as this will get noticed by the ATF if it keeps happening.
I seem to remember there was more to the case than just buying and selling some stuff but the details are fuzzy.
You are correct that there were some additional aspects. For example, one of he 50 BMG rifles that he sold fell into the hands of narcotraffickers which was the cause for launching the investigation. I was trying to identify the key portion of evidence (volume of sales) that put him in prison.
Here is the FBI announcement and indictment:
http://www.fbi.gov/elpaso/press-releases/2010/ep082410.htm
http://www.ticklethewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/fbi-agent-texas-shipley.pdf
There is NO statute that says you cannot.
And if you were a collector who only collected LOWERS (just as some people only collects grips) there is nothing that prevents you from buying 20 lowers and then later deciding to eliminate them from your collection by selling them.
And FOPA "should" protect the collector in that instance. The problem is the general perception that many promote on the internet that such activity is automatically illegal.
Now if a person purchases 20 lowers with the INTENT to resell them for profit then THAT would be a violation.
The actions of course in both situations are exactly the same however the INTENT in scenario A should be "legal and protected" and the INTENT in scenario B a "violation."
The only difference is INTENT and we have arrived at the point where ATF has the sole discretion to decide what the INTENT actually was.
Bottom line is FOPA has been severely undermined and the volume collector who engages in multiple trades and transactions is once again "at risk" and we are approaching the environment that FOPA was written specifically to protect us from in the first place.
I wonder how much intent is archived on the various gun boards about buying 20 lowers and selling them for pre ban prices when they next AWB comes along. :sarcastic:
I wonder how much intent is archived on the various gun boards about buying 20 lowers and selling them for pre ban prices when they next AWB comes along. :sarcastic:
And that is why they take your computer every time, well that and so they can load it down with child porn for them "to find."
:sarcastic:
It is sad that less than 30 years later that with the exception of still being able to import mil surp C&Rs and having ammo deregulated most of the provisions of FOPA have been effectively undermined.
You take a real chance transporting regulated firearms through a "ban state" (especially when flying and your connection isn't made) regardless of if they are legal at your final destination.
An advanced collector who maintains "trading stock" is at great risk of being classified as an unlicensed dealer. In the past (prior to FOPA) this is what motivated nearly every serious collector to pull a FFL (that was when it was about $60 for 3 years and there was nothing that prevented you from running it out of your home) as insurance against such prosecution.
With the general erosion of the FOPA "safety net" the advanced collector is back to that familiar situation only this time it is a lot more cost prohibitive to become a FFL and many people don't have time to become an actual dealer. And simply acquiring a FFL for collector purposes is grounds for revoking the license in any case.
I think back to the car mechanic I once knew who lived to buy, sell and trade M1 Garands for the sole purpose of building a comprehensive M1 Garand collection, who purchased and sold as many as a dozen rifles a month and it's hard to accept that he'd be deemed a criminal today. All he cared about was buying lots of M1s and going through them looking for the rare ones to keep and restoring the others so he could sell or trade them for more M1s.
He had well over 200 M1s in his personal collection and probably 150 "traders" at any given time. It was the greatest personal M1 collection I've ever seen.
Moose-Knuckle
12-04-12, 16:38
You are correct that there were some additional aspects. For example, one of he 50 BMG rifles that he sold fell into the hands of narcotraffickers which was the cause for launching the investigation. I was trying to identify the key portion of evidence (volume of sales) that put him in prison.
Here is the FBI announcement and indictment:
http://www.fbi.gov/elpaso/press-releases/2010/ep082410.htm
http://www.ticklethewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/fbi-agent-texas-shipley.pdf
Yeah I remember that guy, hell it wouldn't surprise me if he was in on FF.
Its a circuit split. One Circuit held that selling 2 guns was ample evidence, while another Circuit propagated a test, requiring one to offer to procure. Or something along those lines. I'll brief more on this after I get off work.
Yeah I remember that guy, hell it wouldn't surprise me if he was in on FF.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or joking, but FF was executed by ATF agents operating out of the Phoenix FO. Shipley was an FBI agent assigned to the El Paso FO.
Moose-Knuckle
12-05-12, 03:33
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or joking, but FF was executed by ATF agents operating out of the Phoenix FO. Shipley was an FBI agent assigned to the El Paso FO.
I was being a little facetious but nothing would surprise me. If one DOJ agency was involved in illegal trafficking of legal arms to Mexico it is plausible there are others.
I'm pretty sure that one cannot sell over 5 handguns in a one year period. Anything over that is considered dealing without a license per the ATF. There was a big shitstorm in CA about a year ago over this.
I don't believe this is the case for long guns though.
I would never sell a personal firearm in a face to face sale.
Too much hassle and too much risk.
Gunbroker only.
I'm pretty sure that one cannot sell over 5 handguns in a one year period. Anything over that is considered dealing without a license per the ATF. There was a big shitstorm in CA about a year ago over this.
I don't believe this is the case for long guns though.
:confused:
I'm pretty sure that one cannot sell over 5 handguns in a one year period. Anything over that is considered dealing without a license per the ATF. There was a big shitstorm in CA about a year ago over this.
I don't believe this is the case for long guns though.
Well gee I guess every single person I know who sells guns is going to jail.
Well gee I guess every single person I know who sells guns is going to jail.
Yea, pretty much. But in this instance, they stuck it to these guys. Or at least are trying to if the case is still open.
Yea, pretty much. But in this instance, they stuck it to these guys. Or at least are trying to if the case is still open.
I don't think the fact that they sold 5 handguns had anything to do with qualifying them as an unlicensed dealer and that there were other factors.
Unless there is a specific CA regulation, there is no "magic number."
Well gee I guess every single person I know who sells guns is going to jail.
I have four pistols listed at this very moment in the exchange, all being sold to help fund camera lenses...:( Needless to say, it would be bad on all counts if such a restriction actually existed...
I don't think the fact that they sold 5 handguns had anything to do with qualifying them as an unlicensed dealer and that there were other factors.
Unless there is a specific CA regulation, there is no "magic number."
It was one of the things being stuck to them. There were other "violations" as well. One guy PPT over 30 handguns in a years time & the other around half of that. Yes some CA only BS was involved but I'm pretty sure there is a technical limit where an individual can only sell up to 5 handguns a year per federal law. This is something I learned about while watching this drama. Maybe an FFL can chime in?
but I'm pretty sure there is a technical limit where an individual can only sell up to 5 handguns a year per federal law. This is something I learned about while watching this drama. Maybe an FFL can chime in?
I'm actually a FFL/SOT and I'm not aware of any such Federal law.
I'm pretty sure there is a technical limit where an individual can only sell up to 5 handguns a year per federal law. This is something I learned about while watching this drama. Maybe an FFL can chime in?
There is no such law in place, I've been trading & selling privately for over three decades, I would have encountered it many times over the years.
I would never sell a personal firearm in a face to face sale.
Too much hassle and too much risk.
Gunbroker only. I do face to face all the time. I also vet them pretty thoroughly before the transaction. My last four, delivered in one day, were three doctors at their offices and the manager of a car dealership repair facility in his office. I don't do the parking lot bullshit, though.
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