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Aaron_B
12-05-12, 22:15
http://geissele.com/reactionrod.aspx


Anybody have any experience with this? And is it worth the 60$?

AKDoug
12-05-12, 22:36
They are discussed in this thread, similar product from Brownells

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105052

Aaron_B
12-05-12, 23:33
Thx I'll check it out, tried searching with no avail.

mtdawg169
12-07-12, 08:18
They are discussed in this thread, similar product from Brownells

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105052

What was the final consensus on these types of tools? Some folks said it would loosen the barrel extension and others said it would not.

Kokopelli
12-07-12, 08:37
That looks like it would work to me.. Ron

C4IGrant
12-07-12, 09:30
The Geissele reaction rod is awesome to say the least. Like everything else they do, it is EXTREMELY well made.

We use it in our shop everyday and also sell them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Reaction_Rod.jpg



C4

mtdawg169
12-07-12, 10:21
The Geissele reaction rod is awesome to say the least. Like everything else they do, it is EXTREMELY well made.

We use it in our shop everyday and also sell them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Reaction_Rod.jpg



C4

Thanks for the feedback Grant. Can it also be used for flash hider removal & installs?

C4IGrant
12-07-12, 10:27
Thanks for the feedback Grant. Can it also be used for flash hider removal & installs?

Sure can. Anything that involves the barrel (Rail install, FH, etc).




C4

mtdawg169
12-07-12, 10:44
Sure can. Anything that involves the barrel (Rail install, FH, etc).




C4

Nice. Order inbound

markm
12-07-12, 11:11
I might need one of those for working on homo guns with no real FSB. :(

Airhasz
12-07-12, 13:37
Your a 'crazy' man Markm...:haha:


I might need one of those for working on homo guns with no real FSB. :(

Aaron_B
12-07-12, 21:12
Grant, thank you for the response. I will be ordering one from you soon, a long with a noveske NSR 9. :cool:

Aaron



The Geissele reaction rod is awesome to say the least. Like everything else they do, it is EXTREMELY well made.

We use it in our shop everyday and also sell them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Reaction_Rod.jpg



C4

C4IGrant
12-08-12, 07:54
Grant, thank you for the response. I will be ordering one from you soon, a long with a noveske NSR 9. :cool:

Aaron

You are welcome.



C4

AFshirt
12-08-12, 10:21
we had one mounted vertically at my last shop. it was great, handguards off, upper over the rod, big wrench on the barrel nut and spin. it makes short work of barrel changes when you have a few hundred to do. it only takes a few minutes to change a barrel in and out of soft jaws or a receiver vice but 10 minutes a gun for 100 guns is a lot of wasted time.

Neo Mara
12-08-12, 11:37
The Geissele reaction rod is awesome to say the least. Like everything else they do, it is EXTREMELY well made.

We use it in our shop everyday and also sell them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Reaction_Rod.jpg



C4

Ordered, thanks.

edit: Just thought about this a little more. Since a standard bolt will fit in an KAC E3 extension, this should work with an E3 as well, correct?

Stickman
12-08-12, 12:07
we had one mounted vertically at my last shop. it was great, handguards off, upper over the rod, big wrench on the barrel nut and spin. it makes short work of barrel changes when you have a few hundred to do. it only takes a few minutes to change a barrel in and out of soft jaws or a receiver vice but 10 minutes a gun for 100 guns is a lot of wasted time.



CATM @Lackland?

AKDoug
12-08-12, 12:32
So, why is it in that other thread that Skullworks and mk18pilot are so dead set against this tool? What are the downsides? The tool makes perfect sense to me, what am I missing?

mtdawg169
12-08-12, 12:43
So, why is it in that other thread that Skullworks and mk18pilot are so dead set against this tool? What are the downsides? The tool makes perfect sense to me, what am I missing?

Not sure, but I'll take Grant's word on it and Giesselle's reputation any day.

Magic_Salad0892
12-08-12, 13:16
I might need one of those for working on homo guns with no real FSB. :(

You came around to red dots, and rail systems. We'll get you warmed up to real rails like URX, or Gieselle some day. :)

Stickman
12-08-12, 13:23
I might need one of those for working on homo guns with no real FSB. :(



Whats a FSB? :haha:

markm
12-08-12, 15:21
Whats a FSB? :haha:

Something we used to find on guns before states started legalizing Marijewanda!

AFshirt
12-08-12, 15:57
CATM @Lackland?


gunsmith shop

SteveL
12-08-12, 20:02
The Geissele reaction rod is awesome to say the least. Like everything else they do, it is EXTREMELY well made.

We use it in our shop everyday and also sell them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Geissele/Reaction_Rod.jpg



C4

Grant do you find that this takes the place of an upper receiver clam-shell style action block, or do you still find use for the clam-shell block as well?

C4IGrant
12-08-12, 20:18
Grant do you find that this takes the place of an upper receiver clam-shell style action block, or do you still find use for the clam-shell block as well?

I have all the various blocks out there and this ones takes the place of all of them.

Typically speaking, I am not a fan of the stress put on the receiver when torquing down a barrel nut or FH/MB. This fixes that.



C4

SteveL
12-08-12, 20:21
I have all the various blocks out there and this ones takes the place of all of them.

Typically speaking, I am not a fan of the stress put on the receiver when torquing down a barrel nut or FH/MB. This fixes that.



C4

Thanks for the follow-up Grant. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

Aaron_B
12-08-12, 20:56
From what I can see, the Brownell's one you set the barrel nut tool in the vise and the nut is stationary and everything is torqued vertical. So, essentially you end up twisting the upper receiver into the barrel nut. With the reaction rod, it is set in the vise and you actually torque the nut and the receiver stays stationary. Which seems like a better way to do it IMO.

I don't have a lot of experience installing barrels/rails so take what I said for what it's worth.

Aaron



So, why is it in that other thread that Skullworks and mk18pilot are so dead set against this tool? What are the downsides? The tool makes perfect sense to me, what am I missing?

Robb Jensen
12-08-12, 21:42
So, why is it in that other thread that Skullworks and mk18pilot are so dead set against this tool? What are the downsides? The tool makes perfect sense to me, what am I missing?

I've been using the Brownells bbl ext. tool for quite awhile. I've done several hundred if not a thousand muzzle device swaps, barrel & rail swaps in that time...I've yet to encounter an issue. Sure problems may arise using this tool but what's the probability vs. the possibility? In my experience thus far the probability is pretty F'ing low but don't let my actual experience get in the way of an inexperienced persons emotions.

AKDoug
12-09-12, 00:09
Thanks Rob. Between you and Grant, that's pretty high praise for this too. Only thing that would be better is if IG got on board. The tool makes total sense to me and looks far better than clamping the whole upper in a block.

Aaron_B
12-09-12, 00:48
Thx for the input Robb.

I ordered the reaction rod and will be using it to put on a Noveske NSR 9. We will see how this thing works out for me shortly once everything gets here. I imagine shouldn't have any problems.


Thx Again for everyone's input

Aaron

GrumpyM4
12-09-12, 04:16
So, why is it in that other thread that Skullworks and mk18pilot are so dead set against this tool? What are the downsides? The tool makes perfect sense to me, what am I missing?

Because some people would rather not logically think things through and also think they know more then they do.

I explained the dynamics of the joints under stress when torquing barrels with at least one other clamping tool in the last thread about this.



Something we used to find on guns before states started legalizing Marijewanda!

That would be "Mekong Mind****" for the old timers.... :D

C4IGrant
12-09-12, 07:30
Thanks Rob. Between you and Grant, that's pretty high praise for this too. Only thing that would be better is if IG got on board. The tool makes total sense to me and looks far better than clamping the whole upper in a block.

I have the clamp block as well and it is fine, but does not fit all all upper receiver types.

If you think about it, neither removing or installing a barrel nut applies pressure to the barrel extension with this device (as the threads are on the receiver and not on the barrel). Since the barrel is being held and not the receiver, there is no stress put onto the weaker aluminum.



C4

GrumpyM4
12-09-12, 07:46
If you think about it, neither removing or installing a barrel nut applies pressure to the barrel extension with this device (as the threads are on the receiver and not on the barrel). Since the barrel is being held and not the receiver, there is no stress put onto the weaker aluminum.
C4

Pretty much.

The only mate-up that could have any stresses applied using this tool are between the barrel alignment pin and the alignment pin slot on the receiver. And even then, that should be minimal.

All other barrel installation methods apply force on the extension/barrel joint or directly to the full receiver/extension.

C4IGrant
12-09-12, 07:51
Pretty much.

The only mate-up that could have any stresses applied using this tool are between the barrel alignment pin and the alignment pin slot on the receiver. And even then, that should be minimal.

All other barrel installation methods apply force on the extension/barrel joint or directly to the full receiver/extension.

I would have to go back and pay special attention to the alignment pin, but I don't think it puts any stress on it either (or at least any more than using a normal receiver block would).



C4

redhands
12-09-12, 09:34
I think "possible damage" is being overthought.
Both the clam shell and the barrel extension rod type tools "can" damage the upper.
Assuming the threads on the BE face the same way as the barrel nut neither method will spin the BE off the barrel without without first shearing the upper.
Pick whatever type you like and use it.

DBR
12-09-12, 10:09
*****

556Cliff
12-09-12, 10:21
This tool will put as much tension on the index pin and slot as using barrel blocks to install a barrel.

It does nothing to prevent the upper receiver from wanting to spin.


I don't want to promote "New Bushmaster" (Windham Weaponry) but, their version of this tool as seen in the YouTube video from MAC on Windham Weaponry, prevents the upper receiver from spinning by also engaging the charging handle slot in the upper receiver, which in doing so reduces or removes completely the chance of damaging the index pin and index pin slot.

I'm not trying to promote "New Bushmaster" I'm just pointing out the obvious.

redhands
12-09-12, 12:03
The receiver is not going to spin during a barrel installation.
The "rod" will hold the BE stationary as you tighten down the barrel nut, which will pull the upper into the BE pin along the long axis of the barrel through the principle of an inclined plane.

I can only think of 2 scenarios that would cause the BE to shear the upper. One is that you are removing the barrel and the threads are frozen.--the upper is toast anyway. Or you are working on a muzzle device and not blocking the barrel.

I doubt either would ever happen, so use the tool that you prefer.

556Cliff
12-09-12, 12:31
The receiver is not going to spin during a barrel installation.
The "rod" will hold the BE stationary as you tighten down the barrel nut, which will pull the upper into the BE pin along the long axis of the barrel through the principle of an inclined plane.

I can only think of 2 scenarios that would cause the BE to shear the upper. One is that you are removing the barrel and the threads are frozen.--the upper is toast anyway. Or you are working on a muzzle device and not blocking the barrel.

I doubt either would ever happen, so use the tool that you prefer.

Yes, the receiver will not spin because the index pin and slot are stopping it from doing so, but the receiver will attempt to spin as torque is applied to the barrel nut, in turn putting stress on the barrel indexing pin via the indexing pin slot in the upper receiver which will also be under stress from contacting the indexing pin.

This is one of the reasons we went away from using barrel blocks to install/remove barrels, and though this issue still exists to some degree when using receiver blocks to install/remove barrels the effect is much less when using the receiver block method.

redhands
12-09-12, 13:27
I still like the idea of a tool that, "leaves the upper alone," but I am going to concede that I don't have experience that would qualify me to tell someone else what is best.

If you have done work for others you are well past my level.
If your experience has led you to use the clamshell over the rod type tool I respect that, although if I choose to screw up my own gear I may do so just for giggles.

Driving on.

556Cliff
12-09-12, 14:27
I still like the idea of a tool that, "leaves the upper alone," but I am going to concede that I don't have experience that would qualify me to tell someone else what is best.

If you have done work for others you are well past my level.
If your experience has led you to use the clamshell over the rod type tool I respect that, although if I choose to screw up my own gear I may do so just for giggles.

Driving on.

Oh... I'm not an expert, I was just pointing out what makes mechanical sense to me based off of my own personal experiences assembling and working on these rifles as a hobby.

I don't want to come off as telling anyone what to do. I'm just trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can from all of the experts that are on this forum.

I want someone to show me why I'm wrong so we can all learn from my lack of knowledge. ;)

Iraqgunz
12-09-12, 16:46
I am looking for a deal on one of these now to try it out. The theory seems good and anything that makes the process more idiot proof is good.

AFshirt
12-09-12, 17:09
I am looking for a deal on one of these now to try it out. The theory seems good and anything that makes the process more idiot proof is good.

Then someone will just make a better idiot.

sinlessorrow
12-09-12, 17:19
Any chance on damaging the extension since youll put 30-80ftlbs on it.

556Cliff
12-09-12, 19:12
Any chance on damaging the extension since youll put 30-80ftlbs on it.

If you count the index pin as part of the barrel extension then yes there is a chance you could damage it.

Otherwise no.

There is also a chance that you could tighten or loosen the barrel extension while installing/removing a muzzle device, depending on if your barrel extension was torqued correctly or not.

GrumpyM4
12-09-12, 21:49
I would have to go back and pay special attention to the alignment pin, but I don't think it puts any stress on it either (or at least any more than using a normal receiver block would).
C4

You're absolutly correct that the stress on the alignment pin with the rod vs. clam-shell is no greater or lesser.

Quite simply put, it is the singular joint between dissimilar metals (steel and Aluminum) that removal of force cannot be accomplished regardless of which method is used. The good thing is that it is minimal force that is easily overcome as the barrel nut is tightened and the friction between the receiver end and extension shoulder overcome the friction between the threads.

This is one of the reasons it's so important to grease the threads.

Col_Crocs
12-10-12, 17:22
Interesting read here. Grumpy, a couple of questions for you on the effect of friction between the barrel extension shoulder and receiver end...
1. Does this mean it's perfectly safe for the index pin, to install and remove a muzzle device off an upper using a receiver block? I understand it may not be optimal for the upper itself but the index pin is my main area of concern with this question.
2. I think this was asked a few posts up but I cant seem to find it scrolling down as Im posting this... Granted the barrel extensions is torqued to spec, is there any risk to loosening it some while removing a muzzle device or a barrel nut for that matter, or, is the said friction enough to prevent any such occurrence?

dkindig
12-11-12, 01:48
From what I can see, the Brownell's one you set the barrel nut tool in the vise and the nut is stationary and everything is torqued vertical. So, essentially you end up twisting the upper receiver into the barrel nut. With the reaction rod, it is set in the vise and you actually torque the nut and the receiver stays stationary. Which seems like a better way to do it IMO.

I don't have a lot of experience installing barrels/rails so take what I said for what it's worth.

Aaron

You can use the Brownell's tool in the same fashion as the Geissele tool. The Brownell's tool has a 1/2" square drive in the base for a ratchet/torque wrench. Get some 1/2" bar stock approx. 4" long and clamp it in the vise vertically and then slip the Brownell's tool over the end of the bar stock. Then you can slip the assembled receiver/barrel assembly over the end of the tool and tighten the barrel nut using the torque wrench and barrel nut wrench. Also, the 30-80 lbs-ft range for a barrel nut is specified with the offset of the barrel nut wrench added to the overall length. If you drive the Brownell's tool directly on-axis with a torque wrench then the torque wrench would have to be set for a higher (converted) value than the FM specifies because the overall length of the lever is shorter.

On the issue of disturbing the barrel extension using this method, my gut feeling is that if the barrel extension is installed properly (150 lbs-ft, red threadlocker), then the only chance of messing up the barrel/barrel extension interface would be if the the barrel nut was on incredibly tight or had corroded in place. For removing barrel nuts, I would be tempted to set my torque wrench for something like 100 lbs-ft and if it clicked before the barrel nut broke loose I would start looking at an alternate way to remove it rather than taking a chance on loosening the extension.

montrala
12-11-12, 06:03
On the issue of disturbing the barrel extension using this method, my gut feeling is that if the barrel extension is installed properly (150 lbs-ft, red threadlocker), then the only chance of messing up the barrel/barrel extension interface would be if the the barrel nut was on incredibly tight or had corroded in place.

Correct me, if I am wrong, but I think that barrel nut does not engage actual barrel in any way. Barrel nut does "clamp" shelf on barrel extension into receiver. So any torque when tightening or loosening barrel nut with barrel extension gripped by this "reaction rod" (both Geissele or Brownels) is only between nut and barrel extension (and receiver threads of course). There is zero force on barrel-barrel extension threads. Advantage of this method over receiver block is lack of torque transferred into receiver itself and specifically zero force on index pin cut out (receiver is "free floating"). It is not like using receiver block is bad thing (millions of AR barrels installed this way would disagree), but look like "locking" barrel extension is a little better way and independent from receiver shape or pin locations (there are receivers with offset pins - abomination, I know).

I might be completely wrong on that, but this is how HK guys described it to me, when we came to it in HK416 Armourers Manual and special HK tool for installing barrel, that accidentally looks very similar and works 100% same way as Geisselle tool.

Also, recently there was Youtube video from MAC on Windham and on this video I briefly see almost same kind of tool used to torque barrel nut.

markm
12-11-12, 07:13
I just ordered one of these for the old Wifey for Chirstmas...

I figger if she doesn't like it... I'll use it.:confused:

mtdawg169
12-11-12, 08:16
I just ordered one of these for the old Wifey for Chirstmas...

I figger if she doesn't like it... I'll use it.:confused:

Smart man!

mpom
12-11-12, 08:53
So if they are similar, then the brownell is a better value as its roughly half the cost of the G tool. Like the idea of being able to clamp a breaker bar in a vise rather than chewing up the tool with vise jaws.

markm
12-11-12, 08:57
The flat on the Geissele is huge. I can't see damaging it in a vise very easily.

mtdawg169
12-11-12, 09:05
I think that's the biggest difference between the two. I don't believe the Brownells tool was designed to be clamped in a vice, but instead is designed for installing the barrel extension itself.

BTW, mine arrives today!

ASH556
12-11-12, 10:09
I wish I had waited on my DPMS claw block and gotten one of these instead. I still may, but I need to get my FFL and an armorer's cert (hopefully do both in 2013) so I can justify it as a business expense.

mtdawg169
12-11-12, 19:00
Well, the good news is mine arrived. The bad news is that it doesn't fit the KAC E3 barrel extension. I'll still be able to use it, just not for my next build.

C4IGrant
12-11-12, 20:01
The flat on the Geissele is huge. I can't see damaging it in a vise very easily.

Correct. There isn't a mark on mine.


C4

C4IGrant
01-06-13, 12:26
Here is a short Video on the this product: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tc7tOQ_UHo



C4

F-Trooper05
01-06-13, 12:38
Picked one up to install a Z-Comp. Too easy.


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/GeiseleReactionRod_zps79c39662.jpg

Aaron_B
01-06-13, 20:53
Got to use mine about a month ago to install a new noveske NSR and also my buddy used it to do some work. Easy as can be tool.

kmrtnsn
01-06-13, 21:46
I have had one for two months now. A great addition to the AR toolbox. Gunz, if you want to borrow mine to try it out, let me know.

gesundheit
01-07-13, 00:00
Here is a short Video on the this product: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tc7tOQ_UHo



C4

You read my mind, Grant. Thanks.

nickdrak
02-01-13, 21:37
If anyone has a Geissele Reaction Rod for sale or is willing to let me borrow it for a few days let me know please. I will pay shipping both ways and kick in an extra $20.

I need it for a build I am finishing next week using a Vltor MUR and I dont have a receiver block that will work. I called Geissele today and they said it will be "Late spring" before they have any more to ship anyone.

Sierra276
02-01-13, 22:11
Nick.

Perhaps I can help... I'm in Indiana and have One you might be able to borrow....

Magic_Salad0892
02-01-13, 22:17
Wait a sec. You can't remove a barrel using this can you?

Sierra276
02-01-13, 22:23
Magic.

Are you asking about the Reaction Rod...?

AKDoug
02-01-13, 22:44
Wait a sec. You can't remove a barrel using this can you?

Uh...yes :D Works better than blocks in my opinion. I'm on upper #5 this month with mine. The only failure I have had was with an unknown barrel that had a slightly smaller barrel extension (??) a bolt would go in, but not the rod. The rod has been tested by me to fit in a Colt, Daniel Defense, FN, BCM, and Noveske barrels.

Iraqgunz
02-01-13, 22:47
I recently got one of these courtesy of another member and thus far I am really liking it. I have not seen any adverse action to using it and much more secure than the clamps and other stuff on the market.

Magic_Salad0892
02-02-13, 01:23
Uh...yes :D Works better than blocks in my opinion. I'm on upper #5 this month with mine. The only failure I have had was with an unknown barrel that had a slightly smaller barrel extension (??) a bolt would go in, but not the rod. The rod has been tested by me to fit in a Colt, Daniel Defense, FN, BCM, and Noveske barrels.

Huh. How do you remove a barrel using it? It seems like that would be awkward.

(However, it looks like it'd be sick for installing rails, and sights, and non QD accessories.)

I take it this probably wouldn't work on KAC barrel extensions.

(And Sierra, I was talking about the Gieselle rod.)

Iraqgunz
02-02-13, 03:25
Simple. The rod is secured in a vise and engages the lugs inside the barrel extension. When you put the barrel wrench on the barrel nut you are only turning the nut. The barrel extension is torqued to the barrel so it's not coming loose. once you break the nut loose you simply use your hand and take it off.

The barrel then slides free of the receiver.


Huh. How do you remove a barrel using it? It seems like that would be awkward.

(However, it looks like it'd be sick for installing rails, and sights, and non QD accessories.)

I take it this probably wouldn't work on KAC barrel extensions.

(And Sierra, I was talking about the Gieselle rod.)

Col_Crocs
02-02-13, 03:40
Here's a question IG: is there any possibility of maybe loosening the barrel extension when removing a muzzle device or is the torque on the barrel extension enough to resist the force of MD removal making it an absolute non-issue?

Iraqgunz
02-02-13, 04:07
It is my understanding that a barrel extension is torqued to 150-200 ft./lbs. I don't know if this is accurate or not. However, I am inclined to believe that it is possible in which case I doubt that removing the muzzle device or loosening the barrel nut is going to do anything.


Here's a question IG: is there any possibility of maybe loosening the barrel extension when removing a muzzle device or is the torque on the barrel extension enough to resist the force of MD removal making it an absolute non-issue?

Magic_Salad0892
02-02-13, 04:38
Simple. The rod is secured in a vise and engages the lugs inside the barrel extension. When you put the barrel wrench on the barrel nut you are only turning the nut. The barrel extension is torqued to the barrel so it's not coming loose. once you break the nut loose you simply use your hand and take it off.

The barrel then slides free of the receiver.

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the info, IG.

markm
02-02-13, 06:05
The beauty of this is that you can remove/change muzzle devices on guns with overbred rail systems and low pro gas blocks... and NOT torque the barrel against the upper receiver.

I've used the shit out of my reaction rod and couldn't go without it. My only issue is that my vise isn't bolted down because it has to be mobile... so sometimes you need a second person to make sure you don't topple the whole project over.

Dave L.
02-02-13, 06:24
My only issue is that my vise isn't bolted down because it has to be mobile....

Buy another vise ya cheap bastard :D

mtdawg169
02-02-13, 07:16
I take it this probably wouldn't work on KAC barrel extensions.



No, it does not.

mtdawg169
02-02-13, 07:20
The beauty of this is that you can remove/change muzzle devices on guns with overbred rail systems and low pro gas blocks... and NOT torque the barrel against the upper receiver.

I've used the shit out of my reaction rod and couldn't go without it. My only issue is that my vise isn't bolted down because it has to be mobile... so sometimes you need a second person to make sure you don't topple the whole project over.

Mark, just bolt it down with some butterfly nuts. You can always spin them off, pull the bolts and remove it from the workstation. I set mine up using a 5/16 bolt, flat washers, split / lock washers and butterfly nuts. I got them hand tight and the vise isn't budging.

nickdrak
02-02-13, 14:37
Nick.

Perhaps I can help... I'm in Indiana and have One you might be able to borrow....

Thanks! Pm inbound....

kmrtnsn
02-02-13, 15:01
The beauty of this is that you can remove/change muzzle devices on guns with overbred rail systems and low pro gas blocks... and NOT torque the barrel against the upper receiver.

I've used the shit out of my reaction rod and couldn't go without it. My only issue is that my vise isn't bolted down because it has to be mobile... so sometimes you need a second person to make sure you don't topple the whole project over.

Mark, the additional benefit is that it works with other than standard uppers, like the VLTOR MUR and such.

Gunz, glad it is working out.

jpmuscle
02-02-13, 15:13
Thanks! Pm inbound....

Nick if that one doesn't work out I have one available for use.

Iraqgunz
02-02-13, 15:13
Damn it, you outed yourself.


Mark, the additional benefit is that it works with other than standard uppers, like the VLTOR MUR and such.

Gunz, glad it is working out.

The_Hammer_Man
02-02-13, 15:35
All the "omg I'm gonna strip/bend/fold/mutilate my barrel extension pin stuff is a lot of wasted energy/emotion.

You CAN NOT tweak the B/E pin w/o going through a ton of mechanical gymnastics that would trash your upper receiver first... then maybe you'd hurt the B/E.

My original tool of this type came from Brownell's. I got sick of it spinning in the vice so I ground some flats on it. It's perma-mounted in one of my vices.

The guys at Geissele did a much nicer job of it than I did.

I know it's "new" but don't be scared.. if it doesn't work for you...

Send it to me:)

Edited to add: The ONLY time that tool has hurt anything in my shop was when I dropped it on my foot.

montrala
02-04-13, 11:14
My original tool of this type came from Brownell's. I got sick of it spinning in the vice so I ground some flats on it. It's perma-mounted in one of my vices.

The guys at Geissele did a much nicer job of it than I did.



Brownells tool is supposed to work with barrel nut wrench locked in vice, while you use torque wrench on tool directly. That means tool barren nut stays in place, everything else rotated with tool. No wonder it performed poorly used other way.

Geissele tool uses concept of standard HK tool for HK416 ('counter bracket for barrel change' cat. no. 233 157), that lock tool in place and barrel wrench is used to rotate barrel nut.

While HK/Geisselle solution seem to be little better, it is hard to beat Brownells tool in price/performance factor.

Defender3
02-09-13, 16:31
I just recieved mine today, I think I need a larger vise. :D

Traveshamockery
02-09-13, 16:47
I just recieved mine today, I think I need a larger vise. :D

Not sure if serious...is there any particular vise folks recommend?

Defender3
02-09-13, 16:50
Not sure if serious...is there any particular vise folks recommend?

I only have a 4" vise and this rod in that vise just looks puny.

AKDoug
02-09-13, 17:45
A 4" vice will work if all you are doing is torquing down barrel nuts. 30-80 ft/lbs simply isn't that much. My son and I managed to install a barrel nut to 50 lbs with a big crescent wrench to hold the action rod the other day at the range. I wouldn't recommend it, but it works in a pinch.

Traveshamockery
02-09-13, 17:46
I only have a 4" vise and this rod in that vise just looks puny.

Sorry, but I want to make sure I understand; your vise is too big or too little for the rod? Or are you saying it works fine and just looks funny?

Defender3
02-09-13, 17:47
Sorry, but I want to make sure I understand; your vise is too big or too little for the rod? Or are you saying it works fine and just looks funny?

I'm saying I think my vise is too small.

Iraqgunz
02-09-13, 17:49
I like Wilton vises.


Not sure if serious...is there any particular vise folks recommend?

Traveshamockery
02-09-13, 17:51
I'm saying I think my vise is too small.

Thanks. I'll go see some in person.

thopkins22
02-09-13, 18:02
I like Wilton vises.

What size do you like for most work?

Defender3
02-09-13, 18:03
I'm sure (once I bolt down my vise) I can get make it work for the three uppers I need to complete. I'm just commenting that the size and weight of this tool is more than I anticipated and seeing it in the vise makes the vise seem inadequate. At least the vise is steel and not cast.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/defender3va/DSC_0402-1_zpsbb5ebb6d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/defender3va/DSC_0396-1_zps201f0a47.jpg

Iraqgunz
02-09-13, 18:22
I think that mine is a 5". As long as it is good quality and it is bolted down solid it should be good.


What size do you like for most work?

Medic548
02-09-13, 19:30
I love my reaction rod, the portability of the tool has been of great benefit to my friends and I lately. I used it to re-barrel my upper the other night.

AKDoug
02-09-13, 22:07
Defender 3- Mount that rod vertical. Makes it work even easier and uses gravity to make sure it stays engaged in the barrel extension.

Defender3
02-10-13, 09:10
Defender 3- Mount that rod vertical. Makes it work even easier and uses gravity to make sure it stays engaged in the barrel extension.

Thanks for the tip; darn if it doesn't make sense. I would like to think I would have thought of that myself, sooner or later. :D

markm
02-11-13, 21:28
Like the rod... hate the NSR rail. :rolleyes:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/NSR_zps78477581.jpg

Defender3
02-12-13, 06:15
Like the rod... hate the NSR rail. :rolleyes:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/NSR_zps78477581.jpg

Por que?

Dave L.
02-12-13, 06:32
Por que?

He's a keymodofobe :p

markm
02-12-13, 07:03
Por que?

I hate skinny rails. and... it's like... ok... now what? What do you do with this thing? There's not rail sections like a Geissele. Do I need to go to the Apple store so I can mount something to the shit? :confused:

It felt cheesy in my hand at first, but now that it's mounted it seems a little more stout.

I hate the barrel nut design. Aren't we PAST having to time barrel nuts? :rolleyes:

This is going on gunbroker as soon as I can get nice pics... I do LOVE the Noveske MUR upper though.

Defender3
02-16-13, 16:28
FWIW - Reaction rods are in stock here:

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Geissele-Reaction-Rod-AR15-Upper-Receiver-Tool-p/rr-ar15.htm

nickdrak
02-16-13, 16:48
Order placed, thanks.

yfz
02-16-13, 18:55
Thanks defender. I have been looking for one

nickdrak
02-17-13, 17:40
Thanks defender. I have been looking for one

Curious if anyone else's card got hacked who placed an order for the RR thru ArmsUnlimited? Mine did this morning. Not sure if it was the AU website though.

Defender3
02-17-13, 19:02
I used the reaction rod today to build a LaRue upper with a Noveske NSR. I've not built an upper in 20yrs, so I was a bit concerned, but this build was smooth and fast. I had to use the rod vertically in the vise in order to have enough contact area with the vise jaws to keep the rod firm. The rod works just as advertised with any stress transfered to the barrel, not the upper. You can flip the upper with ease while the rod is still clamped tight to work on the gas block or time the brake, etc. I built this in under an hour; it really only took that long because I had Firefly on. :D Two thumbs up FWIW.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/defender3va/DSC_0445_zpsdf240eef.jpg

hjmpanzr
02-17-13, 21:38
Curious if anyone else's card got hacked who placed an order for the RR thru ArmsUnlimited? Mine did this morning. Not sure if it was the AU website though.

I placed the order about a week ago and the rod arrived on Friday. No issues. Everything went very smoothly.

montrala
02-18-13, 07:25
Curious if anyone else's card got hacked who placed an order for the RR thru ArmsUnlimited? Mine did this morning. Not sure if it was the AU website though.

Most of the time it is not problem with particular e-commerce site, but with spyware on client system, that redirects data to hackers.

markm
02-18-13, 08:00
I built this in under an hour; it really only took that long because I had Firefly on.

We put a 14.5 together quick on Saturday... just trying to see how fast we could get it. It was like 20 minutes including the Forward assist, Dust cover, and dimpling the barrel for the BCM gas block set screws.

And thanks to Iraqgunz for the barrel and Pappabear for the stripped upper.

mtdawg169
02-18-13, 08:28
We put a 14.5 together quick on Saturday... just trying to see how fast we could get it. It was like 20 minutes including the Forward assist, Dust cover, and dimpling the barrel for the BCM gas block set screws.

And thanks to Iraqgunz for the barrel and Pappabear for the stripped upper.

Mark, how do you handle dimpling the barrel for the set screws?

yfz
02-18-13, 08:58
Mark, how do you handle dimpling the barrel for the set screws?

I wondering the same thing. What method have you found the best for lining it up correctly put the first dimple in the barrel.

markm
02-18-13, 09:16
I put the gas tube into the block and install the roll pin. With the barrel nut torqued to final spec and obviously the upper in place... I slide the block and gas tube into place.

The gas tube tells you the correct timing of the block. Flip the assembly upside down, mark the two holes with that yellow paint pen.

Then I use a punch to put a small dimple in the middle of the paint markings for the set screws. After that I grab a 1/4" drill bit or whatever... and drill a dimple into the barrel.

It's just a... drink a beer and don't think TOO hard operation. Easier to drill on a new barrel after at least one beer.. but not so many beers that you drill through to the bore. :D

yfz
02-18-13, 09:24
Mark, the bcm gas block won't sit flush against the step in the barrel the handguard cap is usually against right?

markm
02-18-13, 09:31
Mark, the bcm gas block won't sit flush against the step in the barrel the handguard cap is usually against right?

I leave a slight space between the shoulder and the block... where the cap would go... but a gas block has a wide intake so I'm sure it'd work in either position.

Defender3
02-18-13, 10:30
I used a BRD dimpling tool I got on TOS really cheap. A guy decided it wasn't for him and sold it. I know the Brownells is the BRD, I'm not sure if the Rainier is a BRD tool. Pretty much foolproof, even for me. :D

http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?s_o=CalculatedDollarsSold (Descending)&k=dimpling+tool&ksubmit=y

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1089

Unicorn
02-19-13, 17:30
I must be an idiot, but I don't see how this holds better for installing a barrel nut. It's the same as clamping the barrel itself. All the torque seems to go to the receiver itself and the only thing keeping the receiver from turning is the index pin. With the clamp you're holding the porting that wants to turn.
I use one all the time for flash hiders/comps/brakes though.

kmrtnsn
02-19-13, 22:10
I must be an idiot, but I don't see how this holds better for installing a barrel nut. It's the same as clamping the barrel itself. All the torque seems to go to the receiver itself and the only thing keeping the receiver from turning is the index pin. With the clamp you're holding the porting that wants to turn.
I use one all the time for flash hiders/comps/brakes though.

No you're not stupid, you're just not seeing the answer (hint, it's right in front of you!)

It is not the same as clamping the barrel, or clamping the upper receiver. Think of it as a giant hex wrench, just clamped in a vice. Think of the barrel as a hex screw. Slide the upper and the barrel over the GAR, align the splines and it is locked into position with more load bearing contact surfaces on the barrel extension than available by any other method; just like a hexhead in a hex screw. Now, just tighten the barrel nut, muzzle device, etc. Easy as pie.

markm
02-20-13, 06:50
I've gotten to where I use the thing even on barrels that have pinned FSBs.

traintrax
03-21-13, 13:11
Anyone have a line on these? I can't find them in stock anywere.

Thanks.

ASH556
03-21-13, 13:54
I must be an idiot, but I don't see how this holds better for installing a barrel nut. It's the same as clamping the barrel itself. All the torque seems to go to the receiver itself and the only thing keeping the receiver from turning is the index pin. With the clamp you're holding the porting that wants to turn.
I use one all the time for flash hiders/comps/brakes though.

I've been thinking about this thing for the past week and still can't get my head past the point that you just made. Let's take the example of a simple bolt, nut, washer arrangement:

In the case of the AR15 upper receiver assembly, the upper receiver represents the bolt, because it's the part that has the threads. The barrel nut represents the nut, and the barrel is essentially the washer, because the flange on the barrel extension is being pressed between the nut and the receiver.

Now, let's say you slip a washer over a bolt and hand tighten the nut. Now you try to torque the nut down. What would happen if you secured the washer in a vise, put a torque wrench on the nut, and tried to turn? That's right, the entire bolt would turn because the coefficient of friction is higher between the threaded surfaces of the bolt and nut than it is between the washer and the bolt. Thus, the torque input exhibits the highest force on the assembly. Instead, it makes the most sense to lock the bolt into the vise, torque the nut, and allow the washer to be compressed between the head of the bolt and the nut.

So, in our representative example, the Geissele Reaction Rod is akin to holding the washer. Now, because of the index pin on the barrel extension interfacing with the slot in the upper receiver, the rotation of the "bolt" (upper receiver) is limited, but now, that little pin and slot are bearing all the force of the torque induced by the nut.

Now, I only went to GA Tech, so maybe one of you M.I.T. guys got better physics lessons than I did and can 'splain it to me, but as I see it, clamping the upper receiver is still the better way to go.

markm
03-21-13, 14:03
Now, I only went to GA Tech, so maybe one of you M.I.T. guys got better physics lessons than I did and can 'splain it to me, but as I see it, clamping the upper receiver is still the better way to go.

For me the Reaction Rod is priceless when installing/removing muzzle devices on uppers with no fixed FSB.

There's just no smart place to clamp onto when you're doing muzzle torqing with a FF rail.

I'd be happy using the Panther Claw too for barrel nut work... but the Geissele eliminates the need to have any additional action block.

ASH556
03-21-13, 14:25
For me the Reaction Rod is priceless when installing/removing muzzle devices on uppers with no fixed FSB.

There's just no smart place to clamp onto when you're doing muzzle torqing with a FF rail.

I'd be happy using the Panther Claw too for barrel nut work... but the Geissele eliminates the need to have any additional action block.

I agree the Reaction Rod makes sense for muzzle device work. I try to clamp the barrel itself usually, but found out with my MK18 that there's no barrel to clamp to without removing the rail, so I used an upper receiver block (wasn't terribly thrilled with that, but what else to do?)

Anyhow, I still don't see how the physics of using the Reaction Rod for barrel installation/removal make any sense.

markm
03-21-13, 14:26
Anyhow, I still don't see how the physics of using the Reaction Rod for barrel installation/removal make any sense.

I see your point. But I've never noticed any downside to using the RR for barrel nuttery. :confused:

Eric D.
03-21-13, 15:19
There are three places the force of friction needs to be considered: Between the threads of the receiver and barrel but, between the face of the receiver and the rear shoulder of the barrel extension, and between the forward shoulder of the barrel extension and the barrel nut.

The barrel cannot turn because it is held be the rod. The receiver could still have a tendency to turn relative to the barrel if the force of friction between the receiver threads and barrel nut is greater than the force of friction between the receiver face and the rear shoulder of the barrel extension. If that is the case, the left side of the notch will be stressed. If the force of friction between the receiver threads and barrel nut is less than the force of friction between the receiver face and the rear shoulder of the barrel extension, then the receiver will not have a tendency to turn and no stress is applied to the notch.

The applied torque is clockwise (looking down the muzzle) and all the reactions are counter clockwise. The reactions are (ignoring the rod to barrel extension interface) the three forces of friction I mentioned and any moment created by the pin in the receiver notch. The forces of friction are mainly what offset the applied torque. It is my opinion that any stress on the receiver notch will be within an acceptable limit, especially if the threads are greased and the receiver face and barrel extension are not.


I've been thinking about this thing for the past week and still can't get my head past the point that you just made. Let's take the example of a simple bolt, nut, washer arrangement:

In the case of the AR15 upper receiver assembly, the upper receiver represents the bolt, because it's the part that has the threads. The barrel nut represents the nut, and the barrel is essentially the washer, because the flange on the barrel extension is being pressed between the nut and the receiver.

Now, let's say you slip a washer over a bolt and hand tighten the nut. Now you try to torque the nut down. What would happen if you secured the washer in a vise, put a torque wrench on the nut, and tried to turn? That's right, the entire bolt would turn because the coefficient of friction is higher between the threaded surfaces of the bolt and nut than it is between the washer and the bolt. Thus, the torque input exhibits the highest force on the assembly. Instead, it makes the most sense to lock the bolt into the vise, torque the nut, and allow the washer to be compressed between the head of the bolt and the nut.

So, in our representative example, the Geissele Reaction Rod is akin to holding the washer. Now, because of the index pin on the barrel extension interfacing with the slot in the upper receiver, the rotation of the "bolt" (upper receiver) is limited, but now, that little pin and slot are bearing all the force of the torque induced by the nut.

Now, I only went to GA Tech, so maybe one of you M.I.T. guys got better physics lessons than I did and can 'splain it to me, but as I see it, clamping the upper receiver is still the better way to go.

ASH556
03-21-13, 15:45
The receiver could still have a tendency to turn relative to the barrel if the force of friction between the receiver threads and barrel nut is greater than the force of friction between the receiver face and the rear shoulder of the barrel extension. If that is the case, the left side of the notch will be stressed.

This is my concern. Of all the materials at play, (wrench, barrel nut, barrel extension indexing pin, upper receiver) the only one in that group that's aluminum instead of steel is the upper receiver. Aluminum is is much softer than any of the other steel parts used, so it is the part most likely to fail. Even with greasing the threads, I still see a potential for issues. To me it's simple physics, but it seems others haven't seen issues. I wonder how many uppers have been barreled and then disassembled with the Reaction Rod so far. I'd like to see if there's any evidence of wear from the index pin against the upper.

AKDoug
03-21-13, 16:31
I have removed and re-installed five barrels to one upper using the G.R.R. exclusively. One of these installs required a full 80 ft lbs to get the barrel nut aligned. Not a single issue with the locator pin on any of these installs and there is no noticeable wear in the aluminum receiver. However, none of these barrels received more than 200 rounds through them because I was just testing for accuracy while waiting for parts to come in for the barrels' projects.

The barrel nut threads onto the receiver. It clamps the barrel into the receiver on the shoulder. The friction between the nut and the barrel shoulder should be the only thing that puts stress between the pin and the notch in the upper receiver. The relatively low amount of torque required to remove most barrel nuts does not make me concerned about damaging an upper.

Now, if you clamp down just the upper you will still have this force against the pin. The only way to stop that would be to use a barrel clamp or G.R.R. in conjunction with an upper receiver block.

montrala
03-21-13, 16:34
I wonder how many uppers have been barreled and then disassembled with the Reaction Rod so far. I'd like to see if there's any evidence of wear from the index pin against the upper.

Every HK416 upper that was assembled at Oberndorf and had barrel removed by HK or properly equipped HK armorer. Reaction Rod is practically copy of HK barrel mounting tool. HK armorer manual call for 66ft lbs +- 7.4 fl lbs torque on barrel nut.

mtdawg169
03-21-13, 16:36
Every HK416 upper that was assembled at Oberndorf and had barrel removed by HK or properly equipped HK armorer. Reaction Rod is practically copy of HK barrel mounting tool.

KAC has a very similar armorers tool also.

horseman234
03-21-13, 17:43
I've enjoyed reading this thread, as I like to know how things work, but having no background in engineering, I can see both sides.

I have never seen Geissele produce a badly engineered product, although some of you with way more experience may have had a different experience. Has anyone bothered to email Bill Geissele, and ask him what his thoughts are on this matter? He may be able to address the concerns noted.

556Cliff
03-21-13, 21:26
Here is a link to some of Bill's comments from TOS. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_444/225617_New_armorer_s_tool_for_upper_receivers.html

Here is a link from TOS about a tool that works just like the Geissele Reaction Rod but also addresses the problem of the upper receiver torquing against the indexing pin. These guys should know, They used to cause a lot of canted FSBs due to the way they used to assemble barrels to upper receivers. Hint... (barrel blocks) Hint... ;) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_489/227022_Question_on_your_upper_assembly_jig.html

horseman234
03-22-13, 07:59
Bill's replies in those links is interesting, although I can still see your position. Regardless, at some point, and being pretty ignorant of the relative mechanical forces involved, I should defer to well respected experts like Bill. I'm pretty sure he would not knowingly produce an inferior product, and this tool cannot be a major profit center for him, so there is no great incentive to promote it. In addition, many of the people here, including Grant. IG, and MarkM who have put together more AR's than I will ever hope to, are happy with the reaction rod.

mpom
03-22-13, 08:06
Bill's replies in those links is interesting, although I can still see your position. Regardless, at some point, and being pretty ignorant of the relative mechanical forces involved, I should defer to well respected experts like Bill. I'm pretty sure he would not knowingly produce an inferior product, and this tool cannot be a major profit center for him, so there is no great incentive to promote it. In addition, many of the people here, including Grant. IG, and MarkM who have put together more AR's than I will ever hope to, are happy with the reaction rod.

That plus the fact that H&K uses a very similar tool puts me at ease. I plan on using Brownells version of this tool for future builds and muzle device changes on existing carbines and rifles, mine and those of friends.

MP

markm
03-22-13, 08:08
B.G. posts on TARDcom?

I'm throwing every Geissele product in the TRASH! :fie:

C4IGrant
03-22-13, 08:41
This is my concern. Of all the materials at play, (wrench, barrel nut, barrel extension indexing pin, upper receiver) the only one in that group that's aluminum instead of steel is the upper receiver. Aluminum is is much softer than any of the other steel parts used, so it is the part most likely to fail. Even with greasing the threads, I still see a potential for issues. To me it's simple physics, but it seems others haven't seen issues. I wonder how many uppers have been barreled and then disassembled with the Reaction Rod so far. I'd like to see if there's any evidence of wear from the index pin against the upper.

We have taken apart close to 50 uppers now using this Rod. No issues.


C4

markm
03-22-13, 08:46
We have taken apart close to 50 uppers now using this Rod. No issues.



I know I've take a few apart too, but never gave it a second thought. If something didn't look or feel right, I'd have looked closer, but it just wasn't the case.

mtdawg169
03-22-13, 09:25
I know it seems counterintuitive to some, but once you use one, it becomes more clear. Even if the pin were to shift in the slot, you can't damage the upper receiver. The upper would simply turn axially on the rod before damage could occur. Almost all damaged uppers I have seen were due to someone twisting the barrel relative to the upper, which was fixed in a vice. Using the rod, this can't happen, as the upper floats and all stress is directed to the extension. If the extension comes loose, either something wasn't torqued properly or you're a gorilla. ;)

mtdawg169
03-22-13, 09:36
This is my concern. Of all the materials at play, (wrench, barrel nut, barrel extension indexing pin, upper receiver) the only one in that group that's aluminum instead of steel is the upper receiver. Aluminum is is much softer than any of the other steel parts used, so it is the part most likely to fail. Even with greasing the threads, I still see a potential for issues. To me it's simple physics, but it seems others haven't seen issues. I wonder how many uppers have been barreled and then disassembled with the Reaction Rod so far. I'd like to see if there's any evidence of wear from the index pin against the upper.

Ash, if you come to the class in May, I'll bring mine for you to check out. IG may bring his also, but I'm not sure if he uses it in his classes.

ASH556
03-22-13, 09:43
I'll be at the class. I also did just send an e-mail to Bill. I realize at the end of the day that this is engineering minutia, but that's what I do for a living, so I'm interested in this. Physics was always my favorite subject. I thought about something else yesterday on the way home: When you have the barrel nut hand tight, the reason it won't turn with your hand anymore is that the barrel nut has seated against the barrel extension flange and is encountering resistance. I suppose with the nature of thread angles combined with the lube applied to the receiver threads, that the larger torque force then becomes the interface between the nut and the barrel flange instead of the nut and the receiver threads. I'm actually about to head out to our shop at work and try my bolt/nut/washer scenario with everything hand tight (thus transferring the larger torque force to the washer instead of the bolt) and see if by holding the washer in the vise, I can get the nut to tighten. Be right back...

ASH556
03-22-13, 10:05
Nope, as I thought before, the entire bolt wants to turn.

mtdawg169
03-22-13, 10:41
Nope, as I thought before, the entire bolt wants to turn.

For the purposes of your experiment, the "bolt" represents the upper receiver. The upper is not fixed into position with the rod, it floats freely, until it encounters friction between the nut and upper. In order for the upper to be damaged, the friction would have to be greater than the torque being placed on the nut, which I don't think is possible.

ASH556
03-22-13, 10:50
Here's the e-mail I just got back from Bill:

You are making the assumption that applied torque is greater threads to threads rather than shoulder to shoulder. I have found this is not the case. More "twisting" is put into the assembly through the barrel extension shoulder rather than the threads.

Even if it was equal the Reaction Rod has many more benefits to its use rather then working with vise blocks. Case in point, frozen flash hiders. Brutalizing an upper clamped in vise blocks is not preferable to holding with the reaction rod.

Thank you for the email.

VR

Bill Geissele

Geissele Automatics - We Manufacture Confidence

So, Bill is asserting like some of you that the force of friction between the nut and the shoulder on the barrel extension is greater than the force of friction between the nut threads and receiver threads. At this point, I guess I have to simply trust his experience. From a simple physics standpoint, though, I still don't see how it could be.

556Cliff
03-22-13, 11:07
All I can say is that I like Bill's triggers and that Bill himself seems to be a nice guy.

But I think that the more people start to use the reaction rod that we will start to see more "Bushmastered" canted front sight bases. :(

markm
03-22-13, 11:13
But I think that the more people start to use the reaction rod that we will start to see more "Bushmastered" canted front sight bases. :(

1. Have you used the thing? and..

2. You're nuts.

Heavy Metal
03-22-13, 11:14
All I can say is that I like Bill's triggers and that Bill himself seems to be a nice guy.

But I think that the more people start to use the reaction rod that we will start to see more "Bushmastered" canted front sight bases. :(

Quite the opposite.

mtdawg169
03-22-13, 11:20
I suppose we could look at as a barrel vise that locks into the extension as opposed to clamping the barrel. I don't really get the physics involved, but it works.

556Cliff
03-22-13, 11:45
1. Have you used the thing? and..

2. You're nuts.

1. I have not used one because it's downsides seem quite obvious to me.

2. Thanks for the complement. :D

556Cliff
03-22-13, 11:46
Quite the opposite.

You mean his triggers aren't good and he is not a nice guy? :confused:

AKDoug
03-22-13, 11:54
Can someone please explain to me how locking down the barrel can cause a canted sight base any more than just locking down the upper receiver?

556Cliff
03-22-13, 12:18
Can someone please explain to me how locking down the barrel can cause a canted sight base any more than just locking down the upper receiver?

Deformation of the indexing pin and indexing pin slot on the upper receiver.

It can happen with barrel blocks and upper receiver blocks to a lesser extent.

It will happen with the reaction rod as well since it acts just as the barrel blocks do on the barrel assembly. The only difference being that barrel blocks hold onto the outside of the barrel and the reaction rod locks into the inside of the barrel extension.

There is a good reason Colt aligns and installs the FSB after they assemble the barrel to the upper receiver, and that is to avoid the whole canted front sight base problem.

markm
03-22-13, 12:18
Can someone please explain to me how locking down the barrel can cause a canted sight base any more than just locking down the upper receiver?

No... because it's nonsense.

Heavy Metal
03-22-13, 12:39
You mean his triggers aren't good and he is not a nice guy? :confused:

The other thing.

Biggy
03-22-13, 12:39
No... because it's nonsense.

You got that right. Some "can't see the forest for the trees."

ASH556
03-22-13, 13:10
You got that right. Some "can't see the forest for the trees."

Alrighty then, explain it from your perspective. Or, are you just jumping on the dogpile?

markm
03-22-13, 13:14
I use the thing and mine are all at least this straight! :fie:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSapdKPRC682PRUHKFK5Y4dHP9CUcwUMaBrC-XM-2A_COS5IxUPsxDuJQSg

AKDoug
03-22-13, 13:22
556Cliff... I understand fully how Colt does things. They also have a big automated machine that torques the barrel nut. It's pretty much impossible to replicate what they do in their factory in a private setting without some really expensive tool building. BCM, Noveske and DD don't even do it Colt's way.

Like any other tool, it requires some user skill to get the proper results. The G.R.R. is better than action blocks because it doesn't put stress on the weak part, the aluminum receiver. Used properly, with care, it is just as easy to get an aligned FSB with it as any other non-factory method. That is, as long as the FSB installed barrel you bought was aligned properly with the barrel locator pin in the first place. Now, if you buy barrels without the FSB installed, the whole conversation is moot.

ra2bach
03-22-13, 13:31
I'm not understanding how anyone could think that by transferring the torque directly to the barrel that the receiver could twist. maybe I'm slow... ok I am... but I thought this was the design intent of this tool, no?

oh and ASH, I think you need to get one of these right away. I might haves some other things for us to do soon... ;)

556Cliff
03-22-13, 14:18
The other thing.

I know, I kid... ;)

556Cliff
03-22-13, 14:23
I use the thing and mine are all at least this straight! :fie:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSapdKPRC682PRUHKFK5Y4dHP9CUcwUMaBrC-XM-2A_COS5IxUPsxDuJQSg

:eek:

That scared me for a second.

markm
03-22-13, 14:26
:eek:

That scared me for a second.

:D I had to!

556Cliff
03-22-13, 14:36
556Cliff... I understand fully how Colt does things. They also have a big automated machine that torques the barrel nut.

You mean they use a machine on the standard barrel nut or are you talking about the special barrel nut for the 6940?

I knew that they used a machine for the 6940, but if they also use a machine for the std. barrel nut that would be something I didn't know.

Ken Elmore has said through E-mail that Colt uses some expensive custom barrel wrenches for the std. barrel nuts, but not a machine.

ASH556
03-22-13, 15:17
The G.R.R. is better than action blocks because it doesn't put stress on the weak part, the aluminum receiver.

This is the part I'm having the disagreement with. A simple force diagram will show that the G.R.R. does in-fact allow for stress to be put on the aluminum receiver. What does the nut screw onto? The receiver. What is the torque applied by you through the wrench to? The nut. Therefore, the torque is transferred from the armorer, through the wrench, through the nut and finally to the receiver. The receiver will in-turn want to turn as well. What opposes this motion when using the G.R.R.? Only the index pin on the barrel extension. In a battle against a steel index pin and an aluminum receiver, who do you think wins?

That's my whole point here.

ETA: Before anyone gets the idea that I'm ragging on Geissele, both of my lowers have SSA-E triggers in them that I purchased new and installed.

556Cliff
03-22-13, 16:25
This is the part I'm having the disagreement with. A simple force diagram will show that the G.R.R. does in-fact allow for stress to be put on the aluminum receiver. What does the nut screw onto? The receiver. What is the torque applied by you through the wrench to? The nut. Therefore, the torque is transferred from the armorer, through the wrench, through the nut and finally to the receiver. The receiver will in-turn want to turn as well. What opposes this motion when using the G.R.R.? Only the index pin on the barrel extension. In a battle against a steel index pin and an aluminum receiver, who do you think wins?

That's my whole point here.

ETA: Before anyone gets the idea that I'm ragging on Geissele, both of my lowers have SSA-E triggers in them that I purchased new and installed.

You and I seem to be alone here staring squintily eyed at trees in a forest... I guess... ;)

horseman234
03-22-13, 17:48
While what you two are stating makes sense, it seems the real world experience of people using the rod has not created any problems. I would think that if your theory is accurate, and Bill is wrong, negative experiences with the rod would be immediately forthcoming. I haven't seen any negative postings from people actually using the rod, although I don't visit many forums.

AKDoug
03-22-13, 18:03
This is the part I'm having the disagreement with. A simple force diagram will show that the G.R.R. does in-fact allow for stress to be put on the aluminum receiver. What does the nut screw onto? The receiver. What is the torque applied by you through the wrench to? The nut. Therefore, the torque is transferred from the armorer, through the wrench, through the nut and finally to the receiver. The receiver will in-turn want to turn as well. What opposes this motion when using the G.R.R.? Only the index pin on the barrel extension. In a battle against a steel index pin and an aluminum receiver, who do you think wins?

That's my whole point here.

ETA: Before anyone gets the idea that I'm ragging on Geissele, both of my lowers have SSA-E triggers in them that I purchased new and installed. No worries, it's a good discussion. The friction between the shoulder and the upper increases as nut torque is applied. In my mind, this friction is greater than the force applied to the locator pin. Lets look at it this way, if you didn't have a locator pin the barrel could still be tightened down just fine because the friction between the upper and the barrel collar would be sufficient to keep the barrel from turning while the nut is torqued in place.

AKDoug
03-22-13, 18:29
You mean they use a machine on the standard barrel nut or are you talking about the special barrel nut for the 6940?

I knew that they used a machine for the 6940, but if they also use a machine for the std. barrel nut that would be something I didn't know.

Ken Elmore has said through E-mail that Colt uses some expensive custom barrel wrenches for the std. barrel nuts, but not a machine. It was explained to me in an armorers class (not from Ken) that Colt uses a machine that replicates the three tightenings then final torque that is called out for in the TDP. I could be completely out of my lane, but the course was taught by a reputable instructor. I also believe, but it's not in my notes, that Colt installs the FSB and drills it after the barrel is installed in the receiver. This is not something that BCM, DD, or Noveske do to my knowledge.

I simply cannot understand how a properly installed FSB (aligned with index pin) will get tilted using a G.R.R. unless the user doesn't take care to make sure it's straight while installing. While installing my one barrel with an FSB with the G.R.R. I tightened the nut three times, got the gas tube almost lined up with the barrel nut, confirmed the FSB was straight with my straight edge, tightened barrel nut to final torque, reconfirmed the FSB was straight, done.

556Cliff
03-22-13, 19:07
It was explained to me in an armorers class (not from Ken) that Colt uses a machine that replicates the three tightenings then final torque that is called out for in the TDP. I could be completely out of my lane, but the course was taught by a reputable instructor. I also believe, but it's not in my notes, that Colt installs the FSB and drills it after the barrel is installed in the receiver. This is not something that BCM, DD, or Noveske do to my knowledge.

If anyone does know if Colt uses a machine to torque down std. barrel nuts please let us know. It certainly would be interesting to find out more about how they do things in the Colt factory.


I simply cannot understand how a properly installed FSB (aligned with index pin) will get tilted using a G.R.R. unless the user doesn't take care to make sure it's straight while installing. While installing my one barrel with an FSB with the G.R.R. I tightened the nut three times, got the gas tube almost lined up with the barrel nut, confirmed the FSB was straight with my straight edge, tightened barrel nut to final torque, reconfirmed the FSB was straight, done.

I think some people are just going to have to use the reaction rod for a while to see if any of my nutty theories come true. ;)

nickdrak
04-15-13, 21:34
Well, looks like everyone has jacked the price of the RR up 60% over it's previous price of $59.00. It is now $99.00 at both Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/444133/geissele-reaction-rod-ar-15-action-wrench-steel & Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx

Not sure if it is a price increase from the factory or a bit of price gouging by dealers. Either way that is a hefty price increase:(

SteveL
04-15-13, 22:27
Well, looks like everyone has jacked the price of the RR up 40% over it's previous price of $69.00. It is now $99.00 at both Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/444133/geissele-reaction-rod-ar-15-action-wrench-steel & Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx

Not sure if it is a price increase from the factory or a bit of price gouging by dealers. Either way that is a hefty price increase:(

That's a bummer. I started to order one on several occasions and now I wish I had.

Vgex2
04-15-13, 22:31
It went up to $99 a couple of weeks ago on the Geissele Web page (http://geissele.com/armorerstools.aspx).

markm
04-16-13, 09:04
I'm getting mine Nickel Boron'd and selling it for $200!! :cool:

Blak1508
04-16-13, 10:57
Well, looks like everyone has jacked the price of the RR up 60% over it's previous price of $59.00. It is now $99.00 at both Midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/444133/geissele-reaction-rod-ar-15-action-wrench-steel & Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx

Not sure if it is a price increase from the factory or a bit of price gouging by dealers. Either way that is a hefty price increase:(

I had one in my cart on Midway and was messing around looking at other crap to buy and when I went to check out it was 99$ I called and they honored the 60 for me. Very good CS rep I talked to.

traintrax
04-17-13, 08:06
I had one in my cart on Midway and was messing around looking at other crap to buy and when I went to check out it was 99$ I called and they honored the 60 for me. Very good CS rep I talked to.

Lucky you. I emailed Geissele last week to find out the justification for such a huge increase in cost. Never got a reply.

markm
04-17-13, 08:19
Lucky you. I emailed Geissele last week to find out the justification for such a huge increase in cost. Never got a reply.

I'm not sure what it is that is SO LOST on people. The item is hard to find and the demand is high.

NATURALLY the price is going to go up... just like Dillon's stupid swaging tool did over the last decade, and just like ****ING AMMO and every other gun item. Why is this particular piece the source of emotional collapse for so many? :rolleyes:

traintrax
04-17-13, 09:37
I would say mostly because the manufacturer raised the price, not the vendors. And it wasn't a reasonable amount in my opinion.

markm
04-17-13, 09:53
I would say mostly because the manufacturer raised the price, not the vendors. And it wasn't a reasonable amount in my opinion.

People will have to stop buying it an force the price down. ;)

ALCOAR
04-17-13, 10:37
Lucky you. I emailed Geissele last week to find out the justification for such a huge increase in cost. Never got a reply.


I would say mostly because the manufacturer raised the price, not the vendors. And it wasn't a reasonable amount in my opinion.

Here's your justification....straight from Mr. Geissele:

" Sometimes you get into a project and the initial cost estimates are not what you planned for. Either the price gets raised or the plug gets pulled. A machine running without making money is a fast way to the poorhouse. "


If I were Geissele I'd have already pulled the plug on this product. So many people bitching about not understanding how it works.....then when they do, they bitch about how much it costs.

Not worth the headache imho, when their machines could be making triggers, and rails which seem to be far less controversial than some armorer's tool.

horseman234
04-17-13, 11:00
I think that once a person actually handles and uses one of these, they can appreciate the quality of the reaction rod, and it's usefulness. It's extremely well made, and I can see how it's initial price may not have justified continued production.

Kissel
04-17-13, 11:08
I think that once a person actually handles and uses one of these, they can appreciate the quality of the reaction rod, and it's usefulness. It's extremely well made, and I can see how it's initial price may not have justified continued production.

I agree with all of that. I'm glad I have one and never use an upper receiver block anymore.

kmrtnsn
04-17-13, 11:17
When I got mine and examined the machine work I was thinking that I got an awful lot of "work" for the dollars a shelled out, or put otherwise; too good of a bargain. I am not surprised by the price increase.

mtdawg169
04-17-13, 11:21
Here's your justification....straight from Mr. Geissele:

" Sometimes you get into a project and the initial cost estimates are not what you planned for. Either the price gets raised or the plug gets pulled. A machine running without making money is a fast way to the poorhouse. "


If I were Geissele I'd have already pulled the plug on this product. So many people bitching about not understanding how it works.....then when they do, they bitch about how much it costs.

Not worth the headache imho, when their machines could be making triggers, and rails which seem to be far less controversial than some armorer's tool.

Well said. But hey, it's the internet and people wouldn't know what to do if they couldn't complain about something.

traintrax
04-17-13, 11:23
I was waiting for them to come back in stock at $59 to buy one. At $99 I will move on. Brownells has something very similar for a heck of a lot less so I don't understand the argument on the cost to manufacture them. Maybe Geissele will stop making them and all you guys that have them will have collectors items.

C4IGrant
05-02-13, 09:08
These are back in stock for those interested!

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT




C4

mtdawg169
05-02-13, 09:49
These are back in stock for those interested!

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=REACT




C4

At that price, alot of folks will be interested. ;)

Wolverine6G
05-02-13, 13:00
I could not pass it up. I'm in Indiana so shipping from Grant is usually quick

sapper36
05-02-13, 13:40
Mine showed up today and it's an awesome piece of gear. Even at the higher price I feel it's worth every penny!

bruin
05-02-13, 14:23
Thank you Grant, for keeping it at the original price. My order is in and my buddy's MUR is waiting...

Peshawar
05-02-13, 15:31
Looks like I got mine just in time. :) Price went up a few minutes ago at G&R.

Retiredbroke
05-02-13, 15:43
Yeah I had one in my cart and was trying to fill in a few things to make the minimum purchase and the price went up!

AKDoug
05-02-13, 22:53
Looks like I got mine just in time. :) Price went up a few minutes ago at G&R.

Guess that's why my post got deleted ;) Adjust pricing then announce :D

Peshawar
05-02-13, 22:58
Heh heh, yep. :big_boss:

mtdawg169
05-03-13, 01:11
I've used mine to assemble half a dozen uppers in the last couple of months. Great piece of gear.

C4IGrant
05-03-13, 07:18
Guess that's why my post got deleted ;) Adjust pricing then announce :D

We did not realize that the prices had changed so we just turned on the link. Then, looking at some pics on Geissele website, we realized that that we were violating MAP and adjusted. :nono:

So a bunch of folks on M4C won on that deal!


C4

AKDoug
05-03-13, 15:23
Glad to see they were quick ;) I almost ordered another one, but realized that I'll most likely never wear out the one I have :D

JohnnyC
05-03-13, 17:33
I ordered one. Had to add some stuff to get to the minimum order but ti's not like I need much excuse to spend money on gun parts.

Noodles
05-06-13, 16:07
.... So I borrowed a reaction rod this week to put an NSR railed gun together...

The claims about this being a great tool make it HIGHLY under-rated. It's an AMAZING tool. I've never been more pleased to change a barrel nut.

There was zero stress on the upper, where with my PRI block and traditional clam shells I see a lot of deflection. I was able to do a really nice install of the surefire brake. My gas block profile needed a little love to see the vltor gas block and that all went perfectly. And during all of this I was able to adjust the barrel at 0, 90, 180, and 270 quickly.

I'm absolutely in love with this tool. It's an absolute must. I'm going to keep the PRI tool only because it doesn't make sense to sell it. But I'll never install another barrel without the reaction rod ever again. Now I just need to will myself to return it back to my buddy!

RXM
05-06-13, 16:12
So you're saying that all those naysayers that keep bashing the tool, even though they don't own one or have ever used one, are completely wrong in their assumptions? :no:

Noodles
05-06-13, 16:21
So you're saying that all those naysayers that keep bashing the tool, even though they don't own one or have ever used one, are completely wrong in their assumptions? :no:

I'd be SHOCKED to see someone who has actually used it to have any reason to shit on it. :)

The only thing I'd like to see is a way to keep the assembly on the rod. Using it horizontally, it could be possible to pull or bump the entire assembly off. Using it vertically would be sweet if you had the right vise setup. Maybe I should have used it at 45 or so, that would have kept it fixed down and I could see while using the torque wrench.

RXM
05-06-13, 16:25
They keep it clamped vertically at the shop. I also use it in that manner as well.

Noodles
05-06-13, 16:40
They keep it clamped vertically at the shop. I also use it in that manner as well.

OH.... well, that makes sense. Ok, well, I used it horizontally and still love it :) Vertical next time most likely.

RXM
05-06-13, 16:49
So did you kill a small mammal with that reaction rod yet? That thing doubles as a fine weapon or a nut cracker.

buckjay
05-06-13, 17:49
I wish I got in on the original pricing. I was set order one the other week but don't think I can stomach paying $100 for it.

Retiredbroke
05-06-13, 17:57
I wish I got in on the original pricing. I was set order one the other week but don't think I can stomach paying $100 for it.

Me too, had the damn thing in my cart and missed it. I will buy one sooner or later.

Noodles
05-06-13, 18:24
Me too, had the damn thing in my cart and missed it. I will buy one sooner or later.

Meh, If you change 3 barrels, $100 is well worth it. Under 3, I'd probably borrow one, or wait for a sale.

Wolverine6G
05-06-13, 18:56
Its larger than I was expecting not sure why I was thinking smaller(pictures maybe) its solid,like really solid. It can double as a blunt force weapon. Well worth it!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

mtdawg169
05-08-13, 22:54
So you're saying that all those naysayers that keep bashing the tool, even though they don't own one or have ever used one, are completely wrong in their assumptions? :no:

Ummmm, yeah... Pretty much. ;)

sinlessorrow
05-08-13, 23:27
I want one eventually but the price is a bit high. What I do like is you can change out the flash hider without needing a barrel clamp.

Blak1508
05-08-13, 23:50
Yeah the G RoD would be nice, I have a BC on its way to replace an A2 on my BCM and trying to find a barrel for my Noveske upper reciever.:D

EzGoingKev
05-12-13, 14:48
I was all excited I finally found someone with one in stock and then saw the price went up!!!

okdonk
05-13-13, 04:59
Did you guys know about 2 weeks ago, Primary Arms had them for $59 (still the old price)?. They lasted for about 1 hour.

EzGoingKev
06-11-13, 12:20
Did you guys know about 2 weeks ago, Primary Arms had them for $59 (still the old price)?. They lasted for about 1 hour.
Primary Arms now has them listed for $99.

I do not know if this violates any rules but if anyone is interested they are trying to put a group buy together over at TOS.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_444/235470_.html

okdonk
06-11-13, 14:25
Primary Arms now has them listed for $99.

I do not know if this violates any rules but if anyone is interested they are trying to put a group buy together over at TOS.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_444/235470_.html

Interesting. Now i would like to know how much it cost from the group buy.

mtdawg169
06-11-13, 14:42
Interesting. Now i would like to know how much it cost from the group buy.

There are no official group buy terms set yet, from what I can see. G wants to do a one time bulk shipment and no one has stepped up to the plate to handle distribution to the buyers.

markm
06-11-13, 15:00
and no one has stepped up to the plate to handle distribution to the buyers.

Can you imagine the PAIN that dealing with those ****tards would bring? :no:

mtdawg169
06-11-13, 15:19
Can you imagine the PAIN that dealing with those ****tards would bring? :no:

Absolutely. I'm afraid he opened a can of worms just by entertaining the idea.

TXBK
06-11-13, 15:23
Premium tools bring a premium price. It is an awesome tool that is fast and takes care of your barrel and upper receiver....Win Win!

okdonk
06-11-13, 15:45
I have one and it's an awesome tool. I ditched all my other upper receiver blocks. Glad i got it for $59.

danpass
06-11-13, 16:11
I must be an idiot, but I don't see how this holds better for installing a barrel nut. It's the same as clamping the barrel itself. All the torque seems to go to the receiver itself and the only thing keeping the receiver from turning is the index pin. With the clamp you're holding the porting that wants to turn.
I use one all the time for flash hiders/comps/brakes though.
I suspect, without a barrel nut threaded on in any way, that someone can show an upper able to rotate back and forth within the clearance allowed by the pin. I can easily see how the barrel will remain stationary.

It would seem though once barrel nut torquing begins that, at some point, the clamp force between the extension's shoulder, the face of the receiver threads and the shoulder of the barrel nut overcomes any thread friction wanting to rotate the receiver.

Blak1508
06-11-13, 17:42
I will say this about the G-rod..

I'm new to building or assembling AR's but after buying my first complete and realizing what I want and do not want I decided to give building a go, backed by sheer hours on hours maybe even days of reading on here, advice from fellow members, YouTube videos, and a NRA crash course on AR basics I've managed to build a great AR. I used the excuse " I built this for my wife" the whole time when it finally came together the Geissele reaction rod was essential in the process. The build upper has changed so many times where the G rod has proved to be a life saver, from changing out the flash hinder, installing 2 different sets of hand rails and now removing the shaved FSP to install a nitride SGB (which I am currently kinda slowed down on as my novice is showing) but I will get through it and I am waiting on another set of rails to install.
So basically those that are doing their own builds or may down the road, this tool is amazing, as much stuff as I have changed out and I am sure others do the same buy something, install it, shoot with it,don't really like it, trade it for something that may better suit your needs. It really pays off in the end to have the right tool for the job. The rod is 100$ that's a shit ton less then the priceless feeling of knowing you ****ed your upper reciever or something equally as stupid just because you decided to skimp on a great tool.

I live near Geissele if you guys want to do a group buy let me know and maybe I can help.

PS : I am in no way affiliated with Geissele, I just know a great product when I see one and I am happy to support a great company who has great people working for them.
Also when people that have been building AR's for decades longer then myself say that a new tool is useful to toss in the build box I listen, worse case you could always use the reaction rod as a weapon itself. As for the build when it was fully together and I had my wife shoot for her first time ever, she shot 3 inch group at 100 yards, I was proud.

eljimbo142
06-11-13, 18:02
for those of you who can't stomach $100 http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-308-ar-barrel-extension-torque-tools-prod27452.aspx
this tool worked great for me to install nsr. saved me from having to buy a crowfoot wrench as well. even with brownells horrible shipping. it is still cheaper.

Fontaine
06-21-13, 21:51
All I can say is that I like Bill's triggers and that Bill himself seems to be a nice guy.

But I think that the more people start to use the reaction rod that we will start to see more "Bushmastered" canted front sight bases. :(

I just used the thing, and you're right.

I talked to my buddy who is the owner of West Coast Armory, and has been in the AR-15 business longer than Bushmaster has... and he echoed your thoughts.

Mainly, back in the 80s/90s, the "correct" way to work on the barrel nut was to use an aluminum clamp on the barrel. Back in those days, uppers get dinged or damaged from torque on the receivers through the barrel nut all the time.

When the clamshells and inserts came out, everyone lept for joy and bought those, glad to put less stresses on the index pin.

The reaction rod seems to go back to the old "barrel clamp" way of doing things.

I personally bought 6 of these to resell and after observing its use on my personal guns, I have no choice but to agree. Will speculate that the Reaction Rod is good for use with billet uppers and weird proprietary piston uppers as well as mass production use though.

With a clam shell i'd brace against the barrel, with the reaction rod i'd brace against the receiver.

PS: I convinced West Coast Armory to do a destructive test of both methods. WCA thinks that the upper receiver will crack before deforming the index pin, and that the reaction rod will deform/shear the index pin. Results will be posted next week hopefully, just have to find good condition, unwanted A2 uppers

556Cliff
06-21-13, 23:34
I just used the thing, and you're right.

I talked to my buddy who is the owner of West Coast Armory, and has been in the AR-15 business longer than Bushmaster has... and he echoed your thoughts.

Mainly, back in the 80s/90s, the "correct" way to work on the barrel nut was to use an aluminum clamp on the barrel. Back in those days, uppers get dinged or damaged from torque on the receivers through the barrel nut all the time.

When the clamshells and inserts came out, everyone lept for joy and bought those, glad to put less stresses on the index pin.

The reaction rod seems to go back to the old "barrel clamp" way of doing things.

I personally bought 6 of these to resell and after observing its use on my personal guns, I have no choice but to agree. Will speculate that the Reaction Rod is good for use with billet uppers and weird proprietary piston uppers as well as mass production use though.

With a clam shell i'd brace against the barrel, with the reaction rod i'd brace against the receiver.

PS: I convinced West Coast Armory to do a destructive test of both methods. WCA thinks that the upper receiver will crack before deforming the index pin, and that the reaction rod will deform/shear the index pin. Results will be posted next week hopefully, just have to find good condition, unwanted A2 uppers

Coincidence? I think not. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/615551_Reaction_Rod_question_issue.html

AKDoug
06-22-13, 00:03
When the barrel nut is tightened it draws the shoulder of the barrel against the face of the upper receiver. As it tightens, the friction between the two increases. (much like the disc brakes on a car). At a certain point the pin is no longer in play.

I have disassembled an upper I use to test barrel accuracy almost a dozen times using a G.R.R. There is absolutely no evidence on the side of the indexing notch that shows the indexing pin puts any stress onto the side of the notch, nor is there any evidence on the indexing pins of any of the barrels that show any damage.

As for aligning an FSP. It is no more difficult that aligning a receiver extension on a lower. I go through my first two cycles of torquing the nut to usually around 30 ft lbs. I check the FSB with a straight edge, hold it there while I tighten down the nut again, and finish tighten to align the gas tube. You cannot feel any twisting of the FSB as you tighten the nut and that means to me that there is also not any real pressure on the indexing pin. The two barrels I have done that have FSB's ended up as perfect as the factory BCM and Colt I uppers I have had on hand. Neither required more than a few clicks of windage to align the rear sight.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 08:49
Coincidence? I think not. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/615551_Reaction_Rod_question_issue.html

BS. Please don't post a second hand account as evidence of anything factual. The user in that post even admits that it may have been user error.

There was a time when first hand experience was almost a requirement around here and speculation was strongly frowned upon. Unless you've used it personally and had an issue, don't speculate about what damage you think it could do. There are lots of people here that have actually used it whose first hand experience proves your concerns are unfounded.

Robb Jensen
06-22-13, 09:48
Coincidence? I think not. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/615551_Reaction_Rod_question_issue.html

I've installed and removed 1000s of barrels. Only once have I sheared a barrel index pin. This was with using a DPMS Claw block horizontally in the vise. Why did it shear? Because the index pin was just a bit taller than the barrel extension edge and upon tightening the barrel nut it was dragging on the barrel nut. So now I check every single one of them and if they aren't flush or slightly shorter than the barrel extension then I file the index pin until it is.

The Geissele Reaction Rod is a fine tool, sometimes it's the only way I can safely remove a Rockestt'd on suppressor mount even after a 24hr water soak and no means to clamp the barrel in barrel blocks (long as rail covering most if not all of the barrel).

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 10:48
The Geissele rod was modeled after the HK tool of the same design so that they could replace rails for their HK 416 contract. KAC uses one for the E3 extension as well. I find it hard to comprehend that large mil contractors would use this method if there was any possibility of damaging the index pin or upper receiver during installation. Guys like Robb, Ayan, Grant and IG are also using it with good results. My personal experience mirrors theirs. There's no way you can damage anything as long as the parts are in spec and the end user actually knows what they are doing.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 11:13
Coincidence? I think not. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/615551_Reaction_Rod_question_issue.html

I just reread that thread and took notice of this:


However, I felt like something was wrong, so I took off the torque wrench and started backing off the nut. To my surprise, it took just about all of my weight on the wrench to loosen... And when it finally DID pop loose, it wasn't actually loose... the receiver was rotating on the barrel, with the nut locked firmly into place. I tried a few more times, but deciding to minimize the risk of further damage to the receiver, I used another friend's vise block instead of the Reaction Rod. The nut popped loose almost instantly and with little pressure.


This portion of the story tells me something was wrong. If the barrel was locked into the rod and the barrel nut was engaged by the barrel wrench, how is it even possible to rotate the upper receiver when the barrel nut itself never moved or loosened? This shouldn't be remotely possible with the rod if it's being used correctly. Something is missing from this story. Either it was user error or the pin was out of spec and the pop he describes was the pin breaking off when he reversed the torque. The pin would have had to been engaging the barrel nut itself for this to be possible.

SteveL
06-22-13, 13:22
The Geissele rod was modeled after the HK tool of the same design so that they could replace rails for their HK 416 contract. KAC uses one for the E3 extension as well. I find it hard to comprehend that large mil contractors would use this method if there was any possibility of damaging the index pin or upper receiver during installation. Guys like Robb, Ayan, Grant and IG are also using it with good results. My personal experience mirrors theirs. There's no way you can damage anything as long as the parts are in spec and the end user actually knows what they are doing.

After reading several times that some people think this should work with the E3 and others saying it won't, I decided to send Geissele an email asking them about it. Here's their response:


Hello Michael

Knights just has rounded corners in their barrel extensions, all you would have to do is take a dremel to the reaction rod for it to work. Thank you for the inquiry.

Thank You
Stan Fanelli
Assistant Assembly Shop Manager
Geissele Automatics
1920 W. Marshall St
Jeffersonville PA 19403
Phone 610-272 2060
Fax 610-272-2069

It kind of surprised me that their response was to take a Dremel to it.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 13:33
After reading several times that some people think this should work with the E3 and others saying it won't, I decided to send Geissele an email asking them about it. Here's their response:



It kind of surprised me that their response was to take a Dremel to it.

Sorry Steve, I meant that KAC makes one specifically for the E3. NEITHER ONE IS CROSS COMPATIBLE. The KAC version is similar in design, but the tines are slightly thinner to fit the E3 extension.

SteveL
06-22-13, 13:38
Sorry Steve, I meant that KAC makes one specifically for the E3. NEITHER ONE IS CROSS COMPATIBLE. The KAC version is similar in design, but the tines are slightly thinner to fit the E3 extension.

I didn't think you meant they were cross compatible with each other. I was just taking your post as an opportunity to post the response I got directly from Geissele when I asked them if their rod would work with an E3 upper.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 13:44
I didn't think you meant they were cross compatible with each other. I was just taking your post as an opportunity to post the response I got directly from Geissele when I asked them if their rod would work with an E3 upper.

No problem, I was pointing it out for general consumption and it wasn't necessarily directed at you. I've just seen several people ask a similar question about both tools and wanted to be sure people knew that neither one will work with both extensions.

I'm sort of surprised they would suggest taking a Dremel to it as well.

Robb Jensen
06-22-13, 14:56
IIRC the the KAC receiver extension tool works on both the SR15 and SR25 as well in 1 tool (under $100). I'll be getting one soon. Geissele is now doing a AR10 reaction rod for $199.

az doug
06-22-13, 15:25
... If the barrel was locked into the rod and the barrel nut was engaged by the barrel wrench, how is it even possible to rotate the upper receiver when the barrel nut itself never moved or loosened? This shouldn't be remotely possible with the rod if it's being used correctly. ...

The barrel nut "catches" the upper receiver when the barrel nut bottoms out on the receiver threads and begins turning, or attempting to turn, the upper receiver with the barrel nut. The tool is locked into the barrel extension, but does not "lock" into the upper receiver itself.

I still like and use Brownell's version of this tool.

Robb Jensen
06-22-13, 15:43
I use the Brownells bbl extension sometimes as well.
Usually on insanely tight bbl nuts. What I do is install the Brownells tool into the receiver, mount the PRI aluminum receiver block. Mount in my Wilton vise horizontally attach a 1/2" breaker bar to the tail end of the Brownells tool and have a co-worker hold it still while I loosen the bbl nut.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 15:45
The barrel nut "catches" the upper receiver when the barrel nut bottoms out on the receiver threads and begins turning, or attempting to turn, the upper receiver with the barrel nut. The tool is locked into the barrel extension, but does not "lock" into the upper receiver itself.

I still like and use Brownell's version of this tool.

I understand that. My point was that the description I quoted above stated the upper receiver moved but the barrel nut was still tight and it was "locked up". That person's pin sheared. I believe it sheared because it was sitting too tall as Robb described and was making contact with the barrel nut. This contact, combined with torque, caused it to shear off when he tried to reverse the torque and remove the nut.

mtdawg169
06-22-13, 15:48
IIRC the the KAC receiver extension tool works on both the SR15 and SR25 as well in 1 tool (under $100). I'll be getting one soon. Geissele is now doing a AR10 reaction rod for $199.

That's my understanding as well Robb. The tines are stepped and supposed to work with the SR15 E3 & SR25 extensions. Originally, it was supposed to also work with standard AR extensions as well, but the design was changed before going into production. Would have been nice to have a 3 in 1 tool.

C4IGrant
06-22-13, 20:40
I've installed and removed 1000s of barrels. Only once have I sheared a barrel index pin. This was with using a DPMS Claw block horizontally in the vise. Why did it shear? Because the index pin was just a bit taller than the barrel extension edge and upon tightening the barrel nut it was dragging on the barrel nut. So now I check every single one of them and if they aren't flush or slightly shorter than the barrel extension then I file the index pin until it is.

The Geissele Reaction Rod is a fine tool, sometimes it's the only way I can safely remove a Rockestt'd on suppressor mount even after a 24hr water soak and no means to clamp the barrel in barrel blocks (long as rail covering most if not all of the barrel).

Agree. This is most likely what happened.

The alignment pin is STEEL. Receivers are Aluminum. You are not going to cut it off without FIRST widening the channel in the receiver.



C4

556Cliff
06-22-13, 22:06
BS. Please don't post a second hand account as evidence of anything factual. The user in that post even admits that it may have been user error.

There was a time when first hand experience was almost a requirement around here and speculation was strongly frowned upon. Unless you've used it personally and had an issue, don't speculate about what damage you think it could do. There are lots of people here that have actually used it whose first hand experience proves your concerns are unfounded.

I don't have to use it to know that this tool works in basically the same way that barrel blocks do, the only difference being that one holds by clamping the barrel and the other holds by engaging the barrel extension.

Everyone knows the inherent problems that come with using barrel blocks to install/remove a barrel, the Geissele Reaction Rod comes with most of those inherent problems.

sagmill
08-28-13, 15:48
I have sold a fair amount of the Reaction Rods. So far feedback from customers has been almost nothing but positive.

I have had two complaints about torque going into the index pin. One complaint happened because the index pin was substandard 12L14 and it would distort. The use of a MilSpec index pin fixed things up and there was no further problem. Another customer had a way oversized index pin slot in the receiver and he could not get the pin to remain in the center of the slot (not surprising).

The tool has been on the market almost a year. From real world experience it has been shown that the tool works and makes life so much easier when working on ARs.

For those who want to lock up barrel extension and receiver so they could conceivably install a barrel without an index pin I hope to have a solution in the near future. I am not sure how viable this new tool would be since its not really needed in my opinion but we will make it.

WHG

ASH556
08-28-13, 15:58
I have sold a fair amount of the Reaction Rods. So far feedback from customers has been almost nothing but positive.

I have had two complaints about torque going into the index pin. One complaint happened because the index pin was substandard 12L14 and it would distort. The use of a MilSpec index pin fixed things up and there was no further problem. Another customer had a way oversized index pin slot in the receiver and he could not get the pin to remain in the center of the slot (not surprising).

The tool has been on the market almost a year. From real world experience it has been shown that the tool works and makes life so much easier when working on ARs.

For those who want to lock up barrel extension and receiver so they could conceivably install a barrel without an index pin I hope to have a solution in the near future. I am not sure how viable this new tool would be since its not really needed in my opinion but we will make it.

WHG
Excited!

Iraqgunz
08-28-13, 17:02
It works well enough that someone walked off with one during my class this week in Flagstaff.

ASH556
08-28-13, 17:12
It works well enough that someone walked off with one during my class this week in Flagstaff.

Ouch...lame!

You've got a roster, I'm sure you have a suspect. Just sic Mark on 'em.

dukduk
08-28-13, 17:20
It works well enough that someone walked off with one during my class this week in Flagstaff.

scum, one thing to do it to issued equipment man but personal stuff is bad bidness. hope you find out who

sorry i know its not tech' but had to say something:nono:

mtdawg169
08-28-13, 18:21
It works well enough that someone walked off with one during my class this week in Flagstaff.

You've got to be kidding. That's low.

556Cliff
08-28-13, 23:35
For those who want to lock up barrel extension and receiver so they could conceivably install a barrel without an index pin I hope to have a solution in the near future. I am not sure how viable this new tool would be since its not really needed in my opinion but we will make it.

WHG

Just copy the one pictured in this thread. > http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_489/227022_Question_on_your_upper_assembly_jig.html

Or you could make a simpler version of it I guess.

Either way I would probably buy one. ;)

krichbaum
11-07-13, 12:34
Sorry to bump this, I was looking into buying one of these so I was reading through this thread. I *think* I know where the breakdown is in understanding the change in forces applied to the receiver when comparing the GRR to a clamshell.

With the clamshell, all of the force of torquing the barrel nut is applied to the assembly, which is clamped in the vice via the clamshell. So if you're torquing that barrel nut to 80 ft/lbs, there is an 80 ft/lb rotational force applied to the receiver itself (not the index pin...that is an important distinction). When the GRR is used, the total torque applied to the assembly is through the barrel extension rather than the receiver, eliminating the potential to twist (and even break) the receiver.

That said, there is a similar force applied to the index pin and the slot in the receiver either way. The friction between the threads and the nut, and the friction between the shoulder and the nut, are the same regardless of which part of the assembly is clamped down. The difference is the direction in which the barrel and receiver will tend to move relative to each other. The only way to eliminate this is to clamp both the barrel and the receiver when torquing the nut (which was already explained).

After reading this thread and others, it just seems like there is confusion about which forces are moved from the receiver to the the barrel. The GRR doesn't do the same thing as double clamping, but it still does offer multiple advantages when torquing/loosening the barrel nut or muzzle devices. I plan to get a GRR for myself.

mtdawg169
11-07-13, 13:45
They're on sale today at Primary Arms for $80

Boba Fett v2
11-07-13, 23:54
They're on sale today at Primary Arms for $80

With free shipping too. I had to snag one for that price, even if I have no plans to use it in the immediate future.

Aaron_B
11-08-13, 06:09
Had mine for several months now, several barrel installs later for friends. Definitely one of the tools I am glad I purchased.

krichbaum
11-08-13, 07:05
With free shipping too. I had to snag one for that price, even if I have no plans to use it in the immediate future.

Yup, I ordered one too.

mtdawg169
11-08-13, 07:22
With free shipping too. I had to snag one for that price, even if I have no plans to use it in the immediate future.


Yup, I ordered one too.

Beware, you're going to want to build an upper after it arrives, just to try it out! :p

Boba Fett v2
11-08-13, 09:15
Beware, you're going to want to build an upper after it arrives, just to try it out! :p

You may be right. I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9t5XK0FhA)