View Full Version : If not Glock then who?
With the recent threads about the Glocks being problematic, I have been looking at other options for an out of the box combat grade handgun. I understand that this is the internut and problems are exagerrated, but most would admit that the Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
My Springfield 9mm XD(m) has been near flawless in 3,000+ rounds (had 2 FTF in first 100 during break in but nothing since).
I'd look at either them or an M&P if you really want an alternative, but I'm not convinced Glock is that problematic yet.
Guns-up.50
12-07-12, 22:45
hk p30 or usp
but I hear the ppqs are nice, no experience though
With the recent threads about the Glocks being problematic, I have been looking at other options for an out of the box combat grade handgun. I understand that this is the internut and problems are exagerrated, but most would admit that the Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
Looking for striker fired? Walther PPQ..HK like ergos,(Think P-30) controls, reliabilty, accuracy, with a much better trigger..current limitations are; expensive mags and limited sight options...Priced very reasonably..
DA/SA. HK P-30, Possible .45? Hk45, or 45c, others to consider, P-2000,usp compact.. Right now these are about the only pistols going that don't need anything out of the box..Ok, maybe other than changing sights..(but I do that with just about every pistol I've bought.) and that's really up to you..
JBecker 72
12-07-12, 22:50
I recently sold my 3 Glocks (17, 19, 34) and replaced them with the M&P 9 mm. I never had any of the problems others report, I just don't like shooting Glocks anymore. The Smith fits my hands so much better and I'm a more consistent shot with it.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
I'd argue that current production Glocks are still excellent choices. My next choice for a striker-fired pistol would be M&P, then PPQ. The HK offerings are the best non-striker fired pistols if you can get accustomed to the trigger.
Yama Arashi
12-07-12, 23:19
Anything from HK.
Anything from HK.
I would say this as well as long as you're willing to put the time and effort into learning LEM or DA/SA if you're not already up to speed on one of them. And with the understanding that the parts, including magazines which we all agree is a disposable item, can be expensive and sometimes difficult to get.
The upside to Glock is the availability of parts and aftermarket support.
gunrunner505
12-07-12, 23:45
M&P40 full size. Mine has been 100% reliable and very accurate. Some guys don't like the recoil of the 40 but that's a call you need to make, I don't find it bad but that's me.
You hear some guys having accuracy issues with the 9mm then you hear other guys who get a tack driver.
I haven't heard any problems with the 40s.
Diver160651A
12-07-12, 23:47
Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
First let me say, that I am a 1911 guy. I love the triggers, I love how accurate (some of them can be) and I love how they feel. Disclaimer done.
I have had many Glocks over the years. I have sold most of them because I wanted a newer fancier toy or more accurate target style firearm. It's funny, that my go to gun self-defense is a 20-year-old G 20. Many many thousands of rounds hot and mild thru barrel changes and not a hiccup.
Have you ever thought about purchasing a used older Glock?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/08/mupu3uge.jpg
Despite these as my range favorites I have a couple of trusty Glocks in handy places :)
The savings alone of buying 5 Glock 17 magazines vs. buying PPQ or XDm mags buys me an Apex extractor with change left over. Holsters, mags, more Glock pistols themselves are cheep compared to other platforms.
With the recent threads about the Glocks being problematic, I have been looking at other options for an out of the box combat grade handgun. I understand that this is the internut and problems are exagerrated, but most would admit that the Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
If you mean no upgrades to make it reliable, IMHO I believe the latest HK pistols in all calibers probably have the most consistent and best quality control and could very well be the most durable along with having above average accuracy. If H&K comes out with a striker fired P30 type pistol at SHOT and it has a decent trigger, I will probably pick one up. I have had a Walther PPQ 9mm for about nine months now and it has been reliable and accurate, but there are a few things about it I believe could have been done better from the factory in a few areas to suit some of *my* preferences. Currently I do not own any M&P nines but still have the mags and might revisit the platform in a future revision. I also like my Gen 4 nines with the Apex fix, the Vicker's upgrades, sights of my choice and with a little polishing of the FC parts. So currently, IMHO (and that is all it is) , the most reliable out of the box non striker fired 9mm pistol would be the H&K P30 9MM. Currently I would choose the Walther PPQ 9mm as the most reliable out the box striker fired 9mm (I just think they have better overall and more consistent quality control then S&W). Currently and still my favorites, and just edging out my PPQ, are my reliable Gen 4 17's and 19.
Salamander
12-08-12, 00:57
Depends what size and what caliber.
In full size striker fired guns, I'm very happy with my M&P 45. It's been 100% reliable and fairly accurate. Better ergonomics than a Glock. The biggest (only?) complaint I have is that the front sight dot popped out first trip to the range. A toothpick and some white paint, and fixed.
If I wanted a full size 9mm, I'd consider a M&P 9 with one of Grant's fitted barrels to ensure good accuracy. Yes, that adds a couple hundred dollars, but then I put $150 into my Glock before it went in the safe for good so not really much difference, and at least around here a base M&P can currently be had for a little less than a Glock.
Compact guns or non-striker fired guns, I'm currently working on that. Maybe HK, looking for one now.
The savings alone of buying 5 Glock 17 magazines vs. buying PPQ or XDm mags buys me an Apex extractor with change left over. Holsters, mags, more Glock pistols themselves are cheep compared to other platforms.And replacment parts are easier (and cheaper) to get, without having to order online and wait(yep gonna have to sport the 6shooter for while). Theres 4 stores in my SMALL town that carry Glock parts and mags.
I'm pretty happy with my M&P 9mm FS, and I was a long-time 1911 shooter, but my wife has a new Glock 26. I only mention that because she loves it. I assume she hasn't experienced cases coming straight back because that is (one of the) reasons she doesn't like the S&W Sigma she inherited. (And she hasn't complained about the G26 doing it, either.) I have put a couple hundred rounds through it with no problems, and she shoots it much more than I do.
It's obvious that some people have real problems with the new Glocks, but not everyone does. As mentioned above, for parts availability, the fix for potential problems can kinda offset the cost and/or lower availability of the alternatives.
The savings alone of buying 5 Glock 17 magazines vs. buying PPQ or XDm mags buys me an Apex extractor with change left over. Holsters, mags, more Glock pistols themselves are cheep compared to other platforms.
While quite true, the op mentioned in his first post, he was looking for a pistol that did'nt need mods out of the box..As someone who got rid of a inaccurate M&P 9mm, and am now dealing with extraction issues with my Gen3 G19, I'd say those issues alone eliminate the Glock and M&P right off the bat.. I've found holsters for the PPQ, and have one that was made here in OH, buy a small outfit, Winthrop Holsters..They make a decent IWB for a PPQ (and just about anything else) for $50..At some point, one has to ask if it's worth the throw of the dice, for cheaper mags,parts, accessories, in exchange for the possibilty of brass to the face, inaccuracy at longer ranges,(M&P) all of which can be fixed of course, At your expense and time... Don't get me wrong, I like Glocks,But I don't feel I should have to buy aftermarket parts, and fit them myself, to get it to run correctly.That's not my job, and apparently Glock dosen't feel it's theirs either..At this point, I fail to see the savings....
With the recent threads about the Glocks being problematic, I have been looking at other options for an out of the box combat grade handgun. I understand that this is the internut and problems are exagerrated, but most would admit that the Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
1. PPQ
2. HK P30/45
3. M&P 45
4. M&P 9mm (some are accurate out of the box)
5. Sig 226 (W. German marked guns)
C4
HK
FNP
MNP , upgraded with apex
The FN guns are very nice. They don't spend much pushing them commercially, but my 45 FNP is ultra sweet.
H&K USP with LEM trigger.
The Walther PPQ has my interest, its ambi, feels very good, and a great trigger. My only complaint is their mags are lower capacity than most.
HK is pretty awesome, it would be nice to see a striker fired version of the P30.
M&P's to me are in the same category as Glock right now, to get them running there are some aftermarket mods needed.
I have no experience with the FN pistols besides the Five-Seven, I've heard they are very reliable but accuracy is hit or miss.
What about the Beretta PX4? I've heard they are a huge upgrade of the 92/M9 series.
No question about it, Glock definately owns the parts market. I do own a couple older models which are fine but my Gen4 23 has given me headaches (literally) with erratic ejection to the face.
I would include the Ruger SR lineup in your due diligence research and range rental testing repertoire.
I have peers that love theirs.
The Walther PPQ has my interest, its ambi, feels very good, and a great trigger. My only complaint is their mags are lower capacity than most.
HK is pretty awesome, it would be nice to see a striker fired version of the P30.
The PPQ and Glock 19 are both about the same size, same weight, and both have a 15 round magazine.
IIRC the P30 has a 15 round magazine too.
The PPQ and Glock 19 are both about the same size, same weight, and both have a 15 round magazine.
IIRC the P30 has a 15 round magazine too.
And let's not forget, there also 17rnd factory mags (these extend about 1/2-3/4" below the grip of the pistol..I was at Grant's shop yesterday, and he had just got in factory 20rnd mags..So, for those that want them, there are larger capacity mags available.
Defaultmp3
12-08-12, 17:18
What about the Beretta PX4? I've heard they are a huge upgrade of the 92/M9 series.
This is what Todd Green stated before on the Beretta PX4:
As for the PX4, I've seen too many struggle on the line to have much faith in them. I was working at Beretta when it was being designed and we (the LE/mil team) warned them against using that rotating barrel. It was a disaster in the Cougar and while the PX4 system is improved, it still doesn't work as well as the proven tilt-barrel system.
When the members of Beretta's IDPA/USPSA pistol team were told they had to start using the PX4, most of them quit instead. They quit their paid, sponsored positions rather than shoot the gun. Clue.
Last year I had a handful of Canadian LEOs in a class who are issued the PX4 in .40 S&W. They literally had to bring a mallet with them to the class. A mallet? Yeah, I was confused, too. Then every 300-500 rounds of shooting, their guns would jam shut and they had to use the mallet to get the things apart.
I'm far from a Beretta basher. I'd carry a 92G (or better yet, a 92G Vertec) without losing a moment's sleep. But the PX4 was another misstep from Italy.
I love my FNP, never had an issue with it in the 1k rnds I've put through it, a lot of hwhich were steel case Tulammo. I havnt heard anything bad about the FNS either
No one.
In my experimentation they are either too big to conceal comfortably (HK P30 , Beretta, Full Size M&P), more problematic, or had a worse trigger.
Midsized Glocks are the perfect blend of concealablity, capacity, and shootabiliy to me.
I wish HK would learn to fricking sacrifice two rounds in the magazine and take off 1/2" from the grip of the P30. Bam! Instant Glock 19 market share take over.
Midsized Glocks are the perfect blend of concealablity, capacity, and shootabiliy to me.
PPQ is same size and weight as a Glock 19, has same capacity, and is more shootable.
The PPQ and Glock 19 are both about the same size, same weight, and both have a 15 round magazine.
IIRC the P30 has a 15 round magazine too.
I was comparing to the 17 round capacity of the Glock 17, M&P 9, and FNS. However i was not aware of the factory 17 and 20 rounds magazines available for the PPQ.
Thank you Defaultmp3 for the report of the PX4.
Defaultmp3
12-08-12, 23:25
I wish HK would learn to fricking sacrifice two rounds in the magazine and take off 1/2" from the grip of the P30. Bam! Instant Glock 19 market share take over.
So, a P2000 with flat floorplates:
http://i.imgur.com/1QlgS.jpg
USP Compact would be about the same size, too, albeit a little less functional, due to the lack of a standard rail and non-customizable grip.
PPQ is same size and weight as a Glock 19, has same capacity, and is more shootable.
not quite accurate. PPQ's grip is a bit longer
JBecker 72
12-08-12, 23:43
Maybe I got lucky with my M&P 9 (May 2012 production) because it is just as accurate as my Glock 17 was. I see some have issues with accuracy, but I feel mine is on par with all the other duty pistols out there, and when I do my part correctly it will keep them in a 6" group at 25 yards. That's fine for me.
I switched to the PPQ from a gen2 g19. I found it easier to shoot accurately. With mags inserted it is 1\4" taller than the glock.
Magic_Salad0892
12-09-12, 01:03
So, a P2000 with flat floorplates:
http://i.imgur.com/1QlgS.jpg
USP Compact would be about the same size, too, albeit a little less functional, due to the lack of a standard rail and non-customizable grip.
Slide catch isn't ambi on the USP either.
IMHO, if I couldn't shoot a Glock. In order I'd roll...
1.) Walther PPQ (Dawson Sights + 17 round magazines.)
2.) FNH FNX-9 (Stock everything.)
3.) HK-P30 (Todd Green LEM setup + 10-8 Performance sights)
4.) SIG P228 (I'd actually try out the M11-A1. Novak Sights.)
5.) Beretta 92 Centurion (+ D spring)
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-12, 01:06
For absolute zero percent drama the P30/P2000 are the best bet for an out of the box bet your ass pistol. They are expensive and they do not come with the best triggers. Cost is a serious issue for real people. The trigger is, in my opinion, strictly a matter of training.
The PPQ seems to be the current favorite up and coming pistol. Actually, it is a much older gun than it seems but they have come up with a nice trigger. I owned a P99 for years and, other than muzzle flip, it was nearly perfect. {edited for wrongness}
The M&P .40 standard size is my current home protection piece. The trigger is substandard but the reliability is 100 percent and the design allows me to install laser grips and an x300 with zero trouble. Reliability and 15 shots of .40 Caliber Gold Dots are hard to argue with. It also probably has more sight options than any gun other than the 1911 and the Glock.
I switched to the PPQ from a gen2 g19. I found it easier to shoot accurately. With mags inserted it is 1\4" taller than the glock.
For me, while my PPQ 9mm is a little more accurate overall using different bullet weights, I still can run my Gen 4 17&19 faster and with less effort than my PPQ. It would be nice if Walther would just use the common Novac dovetail cut for the rear sight, but maybe they can't. For those thinking about jumping ship and trying a different pistol platform, I think it might be wise to wait and see what new pistols are introduced at SHOT 2013, which is only a little over a month away.
To be fair, I have some sort of problem with the glock. I don't know what it is, but I moved to it after a couple of years with a beginner XD9 and in 3+ years of running the thing through competitions and practice sessions, I could never stop throwing shots badly under pressure. It made me uncomfortable as a carry gun, so I switched. The 'easier' accuracy of the Walther is what sold me. I just don't throw shots with it under pressure like I did with the Glock. I've found one-handed shooting significantly easier with the PPQ as well.
I'd say if you can find a reliable glock19 and can shoot it well, use that. Parts and mags are cheaper and easier to find and the recoil is a little less snappy.
Reading this thread, I get the impression I'm the only one who likes the XD(m)... :p
I am concerned that Walther never seems to win any contracts. They seem to try pretty hard to tailor their guns to bids but usually lose.
They've won more than a few with the P99 variants.
Just this year, Walther won a contract for the Finnish Police, Border Guard, and Customs, for about 7,800 P99Q pistols. Walther also won a Dutch Police contract this year for around 43,000 P99Q pistols. The H&K P30 was also in the running to win the Dutch Police contract.
Out of the 16 Federal States in Germany, H&K supplies pistols to the police of 7 states, Walther supplies pistols to the police of 5 states, and Sig supplies pistols to the police of 4 states. The P99 is carried by the NRW police, the largest police force of the 16 states, which includes more than 41,000 officers.
Reading this thread, I get the impression I'm the only one who likes the XD(m)... :p
I like my xd's, traded my xdm to my son.
XD's aren't popular here and generally start a pissing and moaning match.
Alaskapopo
12-09-12, 07:26
With the recent threads about the Glocks being problematic, I have been looking at other options for an out of the box combat grade handgun. I understand that this is the internut and problems are exagerrated, but most would admit that the Glocks are not quite what they used to be, ok moving on.
Which modern platform would be the best out of the box, no upgrades needed, combat grade handgun?
Glock is not in that much trouble and most of the bugs are worked out on the Gen 4's. After Glock I would go with a M&P, then a Walther PPQ and then the HK P30.
Out of the box today, I would still recommend Glocks-I believe that they've pretty much worked through the issue(s) (and the Gen4 G21 never had any, if a .45 ACP is on your radar).
If not Glock, it is a pretty constrained list of recommendations, at least from me;
Restricting my recommendations to available, brand-new guns:
HK P30/P30L/HK45/HK45C/HK2000; (expensive, with limited parts/magazine availability)
Beretta 92
FN/Browning Hi Power (expensive, somewhat limited production/availability {although their relatively limited appeal today and expense seems to combine to actually make them reasonable available for those willing to pay $1K for them}, expensive parts)
I'm not sold on M&Ps; they seem to have as many, if not more endemic issues than the most of the Gen4 Glocks (and the late Gen 3 Glocks), and when Smith eventually corrects (and apparently that can be a long time), other issues crop up-it seems like a "wack-a-mole" sort of thing, as if to dedicate the resources to correct an issue thaey had to skimp in or rob another area/component, creating a new issue...
Walther PPS is still too new/unproved under fielding/time for me to consider, as is Caracel, another potential contender.
Best, Jon
There is no perfect choice. Get a Glock which is accurate and maybe reliable, a M&P which is reliable and maybe accurate, an HK which is accurate and reliable but with a more challenging trigger, or go weird/adventuresome, and get a PPQ.
Wouldn't it be fun if 2013 is the year Glock has reliability problems with the 9 models worked out, Smith(or Apex) solves the accuracy issues with the M&P 9's (if S&W can make a Shield shoot 2 inches at 25, they can surely solve the FS reliability issue once they admit there is a problem), HK brings out a striker pistol with HK accuracy, reliability, build quality AND a more shootable trigger, and Walther gets its US operation going with more models, parts support and sight options.
Out of the box today, I would still recommend Glocks-I believe that they've pretty much worked through the issue(s) (and the Gen4 G21 never had any, if a .45 ACP is on your radar).
I would say this is not true (just read all the threads on here). On top of this, I was at a large pistol class recently where the majority of the malfunctions/issues were from Glocks. After the class, I made the comment to the instructor that I thought it weird that the problem guns in the class were Glocks. He advised me that this is what he sees in all his classes now (Glocks malfunctioning).
I'm not sold on M&Ps; they seem to have as many, if not more endemic issues than the most of the Gen4 Glocks (and the late Gen 3 Glocks), and when Smith eventually corrects (and apparently that can be a long time), other issues crop up-it seems like a "wack-a-mole" sort of thing, as if to dedicate the resources to correct an issue thaey had to skimp in or rob another area/component, creating a new issue...
As someone that has a ton of experience with the M&P (have one of the first ones ever made, certified armorer, main training gun, customize them for a living) I can tell you that the above is not true. S&W has been steadily putting money in their guns. Over the last year + they have systematically gone through the problems and fixed them (can list all the improvements if you like).
With that said, it is still true that you can get an M&P 9mm that is not all that accurate (don't argue this). The the 40's and 45's are accurate though and if you get an inaccurate 9mm, there are fitted barrel options out there.
In regards to the PPS/PPQ not out long enough to be trusted, I would say that this question has been answered by me and many other high end users & trainers.
C4
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-12, 08:39
Balance,
That is some cool info about the Walther. I am going to revise what I said. Like I said, my P99 was awesome.
I used to be M&P shy like WA above. 4-5 years ago they were really not doing well, especially in the classes I attended. But my experience has been like Grant's above. Smith seems to have sorted out the gun fairly well. I have owned P30s, P99s, Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's etc and I can't really say the others were any better than my M&P in any objective way--and some were clearly worse. For me the ability to mount laser-grips in an unobtrusive and solid way is what pushes it past the P30, which I suspect is more durable, but at this point even that is just a gut feeling.
not quite accurate. PPQ's grip is a bit longer
True, by about 3/16 inch, but the rearmost portion of the grip doesn't extend back beyond end of the slide. The result, in my experience given the same holster angle, is that the PPQ is likely to print less using an OWB holster (at least on my body).
I am not sure what to think of the" Get use to the HK trigger "after dumping my Glock I had a short lived XD 45 and Bought a USP 45 compact and it is the Best handgun I have ever own .which included SIG p220,228,232,230,239,Makarov's,Wheel Guns ,Berretta's Glock 30.
My HK was outstanding from the start the trigger didn't give me any trouble at all :confused:are ya'll talking about the switch from a striker fired weapon to a SA/DA ?
I would say this is not true (just read all the threads on here). On top of this, I was at a large pistol class recently where the majority of the malfunctions/issues were from Glocks. After the class, I made the comment to the instructor that I thought it weird that the problem guns in the class were Glocks. He advised me that this is what he sees in all his classes now (Glocks malfunctioning).
As someone that has a ton of experience with the M&P (have one of the first ones ever made, certified armorer, main training gun, customize them for a living) I can tell you that the above is not true. S&W has been steadily putting money in their guns. Over the last year + they have systematically gone through the problems and fixed them (can list all the improvements if you like).
With that said, it is still true that you can get an M&P 9mm that is not all that accurate (don't argue this). The the 40's and 45's are accurate though and if you get an inaccurate 9mm, there are fitted barrel options out there.
In regards to the PPS/PPQ not out long enough to be trusted, I would say that this question has been answered by me and many other high end users & trainers.
C4
All that I can say is that our experiences, actual and anecdotal, significantly differ. Additionally, despite many "believers", the M&P issues have been well discussed, here and elsewhere. I'm not all that happy to choose/recommend a gun that seems to almost de facto require aftermarket fixes/components.
I respect what you're saying, and what you've seen and heard, but based on what I've seen and heard, I choose to differ with you on this.
Best, Jon
As someone that has a ton of experience with the M&P (have one of the first ones ever made, certified armorer, main training gun, customize them for a living) I can tell you that the above is not true. S&W has been steadily putting money in their guns. Over the last year + they have systematically gone through the problems and fixed them (can list all the improvements if you like).
C4
Grant if you don't mind, is there any area that you think someone who runs an m&p should address from a reliability standpoint?
I do not wish to drift this thread so if you prefer I can shoot you a message.
Thanks
All that I can say is that our experiences, actual and anecdotal, significantly differ. Additionally, despite many "believers", the M&P issues have been well discussed, here and elsewhere. I'm not all that happy to choose/recommend a gun that seems to almost de facto require aftermarket fixes/components.
When discussing the M&P, it is important to make sure we are talking about guns produced affer Oct 2012.
C4
Grant if you don't mind, is there any area that you think someone who runs an m&p should address from a reliability standpoint?
I do not wish to drift this thread so if you prefer I can shoot you a message.
Thanks
Since this isn't an M&P maintenance thread, shoot me a PM for help.
C4
I have a P2000 with 15,000 rounds down the pipe and no problems, my HK45 will hit 10,000 soon enough, and it's been PERFECT. I cannot recommend HK enough. I've been with them for a long time and they have never let me down.
Now that I have changed my USPs and HK45's to V3 (Decock only) they're almost perfect!
I have a P2000 with 15,000 rounds down the pipe and no problems, my HK45 will hit 10,000 soon enough, and it's been PERFECT. I cannot recommend HK enough. I've been with them for a long time and they have never let me down.
Now that I have changed my USPs and HK45's to V3 (Decock only) they're almost perfect!
this is one thing I like about HK is the different ways to set it up .My USP is a V1 I carry it Cocked and Locked .I have thought of changing But just not sure what to go with
With that said, it is still true that you can get an M&P 9mm that is not all that accurate (don't argue this). The the 40's and 45's are accurate though and if you get an inaccurate 9mm, there are fitted barrel options out there.
And that right there is why I will not consider another M&P9 for a few more years. Adding a fitted barrel is asinine & expensive solution for pistols that should not have left the factory. More so there are some M&P fanboys that have blatantly said that 25 yards accuracy is really not needed, so its not a real issue.
The (early) M&P9 I had was great until the accuracy issues & rust issues popped up with the sub-par trigger. Even with S&W fixing the vast majority of the issues, the M&P9 accuracy issue is unacceptable.
When discussing the M&P, it is important to make sure we are talking about guns produced affer Oct 2012.
C4
That's not particularly reassuring from the standpoint of one seeking to buy one today-particularly if Smith & Wesson batch produces, and then releases to distributers per order. The "earlier " guns could be showing up as new in the retail pipeline for some time, no?
Best, Jon
So, a P2000 with flat floorplates:
http://i.imgur.com/1QlgS.jpg
USP Compact would be about the same size, too, albeit a little less functional, due to the lack of a standard rail and non-customizable grip.
This^^^
I picked up a v2 p2000 because I wanted a g19 but was scared off by reports on the gen 4 guns. I've only put a little over 2000 rounds through it but its been flawless.
I'm not sure why the gun slips under the radar so much. I think it is THE g19 alternative.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-12, 19:23
I agree. But they are pricey and most folks would rather take a risk and save the $250. Not me.
packinaglock
12-09-12, 19:29
I would say this is not true (just read all the threads on here). On top of this, I was at a large pistol class recently where the majority of the malfunctions/issues were from Glocks. After the class, I made the comment to the instructor that I thought it weird that the problem guns in the class were Glocks. He advised me that this is what he sees in all his classes now (Glocks malfunctioning).
As someone that has a ton of experience with the M&P (have one of the first ones ever made, certified armorer, main training gun, customize them for a living) I can tell you that the above is not true. S&W has been steadily putting money in their guns. Over the last year + they have systematically gone through the problems and fixed them (can list all the improvements if you like).
With that said, it is still true that you can get an M&P 9mm that is not all that accurate (don't argue this). The the 40's and 45's are accurate though and if you get an inaccurate 9mm, there are fitted barrel options out there.
In regards to the PPS/PPQ not out long enough to be trusted, I would say that this question has been answered by me and many other high end users & trainers.
C4
That's really sad to have dropped to that level. If things like this keep up it wont be long before Glock really starts loosing LEO contracts.
Depending on the day I carry a Kahr in 9mm, 1911 in 45 acp, or springfield XDM in 9mm.
I like my xd's, traded my xdm to my son.
XD's aren't popular here and generally start a pissing and moaning match.
I see... Any particular reason why?
With that said, it is still true that you can get an M&P 9mm that is not all that accurate (don't argue this). The the 40's and 45's are accurate though and if you get an inaccurate 9mm, there are fitted barrel options out there.
C4
Except, and correct me if I'm wrong, only the Storm Lake barrel that you're installing is currently available and you're back ordered on them with a pretty extensive waiting list. The APEX/Bar sto barrel is not yet even available and no other manufacturer is currently making fitted barrels for the M&P 9.
And did S&W correct the auto forward problem?
I agree. But they are pricey and most folks would rather take a risk and save the $250. Not me.
Partially, but part of it is also the HK trigger. Depending on who you ask, LEM is either great or one of the hardest triggers to master. And DA/SA is something most won't take the time to master. Plus there's the price of things like mags and RSAs. I think the initial price of the pistol is certainly part of it, but I think these other things also play a part in why HK gets bypassed.
this is one thing I like about HK is the different ways to set it up .My USP is a V1 I carry it Cocked and Locked .I have thought of changing But just not sure what to go with
Have you tried HK's LEM trigger?
I would say this is not true (just read all the threads on here). On top of this, I was at a large pistol class recently where the majority of the malfunctions/issues were from Glocks. After the class, I made the comment to the instructor that I thought it weird that the problem guns in the class were Glocks. He advised me that this is what he sees in all his classes now
C4
Grant, can you share some specifics on this? I'm interested to know if the issues are limited to 9mm and what exactly they are?
Thanks,
Mike
Have you tried HK's LEM trigger?
not yet wanting to get my hands on one before I drop the cash on one
I'm in a fairly large gun market (Dallas-Ft Worth) - when I was hunting for a M&P9 recently, I checked the dates on the guns at the big dealers at the show - most of the born-on dates were 2011 or early 2012 at best.
Wound up finding recent production (October) at a shop, but only as part of the two-barrel kit.
Partially, but part of it is also the HK trigger. Depending on who you ask, LEM is either great or one of the hardest triggers to master. And DA/SA is something most won't take the time to master.
As a novice shooter, I would agree that there is a learning curve to LEM. I certainly shoot my friend's Glocks and XDs a lot easier than my HK. At the same time, I can attribute that to my lack of training rather than a deficiency of the platform.
Plus there's the price of things like mags and RSAs. I think the initial price of the pistol is certainly part of it, but I think these other things also play a part in why HK gets bypassed.
This I don't get so much. I picked up my P2000 barely used for $600. You can get mags right now for <$30.
I've been lucky that my Glock 19 has been pretty reliable from the start. I did have some brass to the face thru about the first 200 rounds, but since then the issue has went away.
Bought a M&P .22 to try out the Smith and Wesson platform, it will be used mainly for the wife and kids to be able to shoot.
And that right there is why I will not consider another M&P9 for a few more years. Adding a fitted barrel is asinine & expensive solution for pistols that should not have left the factory. More so there are some M&P fanboys that have blatantly said that 25 yards accuracy is really not needed, so its not a real issue.
The (early) M&P9 I had was great until the accuracy issues & rust issues popped up with the sub-par trigger. Even with S&W fixing the vast majority of the issues, the M&P9 accuracy issue is unacceptable.
What is funny is that I put a fitted barrel in ALL my guns. In fact, if you have ever owned a 1911, it had a fitted barrel in it. ;)
i just fit up a Storm Lake barrel in my G19. Why? Because I CAN shoot 1.5-2" groups standing at 25yds and want a gun that can as well. So I put them in every gun I can.
On top of this, M&P's are $425. A fitted barrel (from us) is $200. To me, $625 for a reliable, accurate pistol is nothing.
C4
That's not particularly reassuring from the standpoint of one seeking to buy one today-particularly if Smith & Wesson batch produces, and then releases to distributers per order. The "earlier " guns could be showing up as new in the retail pipeline for some time, no?
Best, Jon
I guess it could happen, but the consumer can always check on when the gun was made OR deal with a S&W dealer that know when the guns they stock were made. ;)
C4
Except, and correct me if I'm wrong, only the Storm Lake barrel that you're installing is currently available and you're back ordered on them with a pretty extensive waiting list. The APEX/Bar sto barrel is not yet even available and no other manufacturer is currently making fitted barrels for the M&P 9.
And did S&W correct the auto forward problem?
This is correct. We are fitting barrels pretty quickly and I believe Apex will have their barrels in another month. It is also entirely possible that you will get a good shooting 9mm M&P.
The auto forward issue is there, but is less than you think and remember that many guns (like Glock) will autoforward as well). Part of the problem with most shooters, is that they do an improper E-Reload IMHO.
C4
Grant, can you share some specifics on this? I'm interested to know if the issues are limited to 9mm and what exactly they are?
Thanks,
Mike
I believe they were 9mm's. We saw a lot of auto forwarding (which then caused a FTF) and traditional stovepipes.
If I remember correctly, the Glock's were GEN 3's.
While the above didn't freak me out, what did is when the instructor said that this is what he was seeing in all of his classes.
C4
I believe they were 9mm's. We saw a lot of auto forwarding (which then caused a FTF) and traditional stovepipes.
If I remember correctly, the Glock's were GEN 3's.
While the above didn't freak me out, what did is when the instructor said that this is what he was seeing in all of his classes.
C4
That's an interesting observation. I've never been able to get my Glocks to auto forward, and I have a large stable. Perhaps I'm not seeing it since I mainly use a gen4 gun.
My M&P 9L auto-forwards pretty regularly and has since it was new. I just expect it. Although my Glock has been problematic, I've never been able to get it to autoforward, nor my Sig p229, nor any of my Walthers (PPS and PPQ).
That's an interesting observation. I've never been able to get my Glocks to auto forward, and I have a large stable. Perhaps I'm not seeing it since I mainly use a gen4 gun.
I can get almost any gun to do it. Some are easier than others (like the M&P).
C4
Swamp Yankee
12-10-12, 10:15
I recently purchased a P200SK for carry since I have moved to AIWB carry. I bought the gun mainly for it's reputation of reliability and the ability to ride the hammer when re-holstering. Prior to this my carry gun was a solid performing Glock 19 Gen. 3. After carrying, shooting, and training with the H&K, I was sold. The platform just makes sense for me and works well. I sold off all of other 9mm Glocks and recently purchased a P30L and will have a P30 to accompany it soon. These guns just work for me and I love the way they feel, shoot, and carry.
I believe they were 9mm's. We saw a lot of auto forwarding (which then caused a FTF) and traditional stovepipes.
If I remember correctly, the Glock's were GEN 3's.
While the above didn't freak me out, what did is when the instructor said that this is what he was seeing in all of his classes.
C4
One or two of my Glocks will "autofoward" into battery from slidelock after inserting a fresh magazine. I don't count on it (when it happens, I see it as a "bonus"), and its absolutely never caused a malfunction of any sort. All of my Glocks are Gen 3s.
I'm curious-did the instructor you're citing say that he observed autoforwarding, or that the aforementioned autofowarding was causing massive problems? I can believe the former, but would be highly skeptical of the latter. I'm also curious as to who the instructor is-if he's on the forum, it would be nice if he'd chime in to clarify.
Best, Jon
One or two of my Glocks will "autofoward" into battery from slidelock after inserting a fresh magazine. I don't count on it (when it happens, I see it as a "bonus"), and its absolutely never caused a malfunction of any sort. All of my Glocks are Gen 3s.
It is not a bonus and should never be classified as such.
I'm curious-did the instructor you're citing say that he observed autoforwarding, or that the aforementioned autofowarding was causing massive problems? I can believe the former, but would be highly skeptical of the latter. I'm also curious as to who the instructor is-if he's on the forum, it would be nice if he'd chime in to clarify.
Best, Jon
Just random malfunctions in general (meaning Glock's not running).
C4
Walther PPQ seems to be the answer, Larry Vickers gave it a very good endorsement and has no affiliation with Walther that I know of, and sells no products for it.
For me the problem is how deep into glocks I am, I have 5 glocks, and a number of holsters and more mags than I can count, as well as a mess of spare parts for them.
gunrunner505
12-11-12, 11:05
Why is auto forward seen as such a bad thing? Just curious so don't kill me...
Besides all of the issues i have had with extraction and ejection, my Glocks never have feedway stoppages during reloads UNLESS i time my strong hand thumb release improperly. I also cannot get my guns to auto forward unless i intentionally slam the crap out of the magazine upon insertion.
I think the common theme here is that auto forwarding or improper timing between the slide releasing and the magazine being seated can result in a feedway stoppage. I dont think this is necessarily related to Glocks as i am pretty sure all semi autos suffer from this since the side is attempting to pull the round UP out of the magazine instead of push it forward.
This also only happens with Wolf ammo which im starting to think might be loaded a bit on the long side in regard to AOL for 115 grain ammunition but that is purely speculation since i havent actually measured a sampling of rounds.
I'd still pursue the the glock gen4 ,if i were you.
the reprots of glock's malfunction this and that ,while documented are still overblown, ime.
i've adopted th sig platform in the last 7 months , and really like them(226&229), but kept ALL my gen4 glock which have performed flawlessly with 1000s of rounds in each.
Psalms144.1
12-11-12, 11:44
I had this exact decision to make when my 4th G19 (third replacement G19, that is) turned out to be unusable. Here's what I thought:
S&W M&P - this was the obvious first choice, since it was a platform that most closely mirrored the Glocks that I'd been carrying and training with extensively for about five years straight. However, the M&P FS in 9mm is known to have hit-and-miss long range accuracy, and is just "bigger" enough than the G19 to be problematic for concealment (I was living in S. FL at the time, so cover garments were thin and short, for the most part). I also could never find a backstrap for the FS that felt right in my hand - the "small" was the closest, but felt almost too thin. The M&Pc was too small and too light on capacity for my needs...
Sig - I work for a Sig-issued agency, so a P228/9 would fit a lot of my issued gear, and work well for muscle memory with my issued pistol. The problem with Sig is simply they're so darned heavy, especially considering the payload they deliver. Combine that with previous spotty experiences with Nitron's ability to stand up to heat, humidity and sweat, and I decided to wave off...
This led me to HK. I know, I know, I suck and they hate me. The obvious turn off for the HKs is price (twice the cost of a Glock/M&P with crappy "superluminova sights is a significant issue), and their triggers. The DA/SA on most recent HKs I've handled has been nothing short of abusive, and the LEM is a system that takes some significant getting used to. BUT, having said that, the P30 is the most ergonomically pleasing pistol I've ever used, and the accuracy is so much better than what I was getting out of my G19 that I decided to bite the bullet.
First up was a P30, vWhatever - with the standard LEM trigger. I took that one to the firing line, and it was love at first qualification - even before fiddling with the grips to find the "best fit" for my hand. I ran it stock for the first thousand rounds or so, then switched the FPB spring to the light version to get the v6 trigger - which I personally feel is the cat's ass in this platform. Because She Who Must Be Obeyed was still breaking my gozangas over the cost of the pistol, I cheaped out and went with Meprolight night sights - definitely not the best option, and the search for the perfect sight set up continues.
Shortly after making the decision to dedicate to the HK LEM trigger, I happened upon a steal on a very lightly used P2000 9mm with standard LEM and factory NS. While not as "sexy" or user-customizable as the P30, I've come to really appreciate this little pistol. G19-like in size and weight, it offers only slightly reduced capacity, rock solid reliablity, and accuracy that's simply incredible. In fact, it was using this little critter that I finally shot my first "possible" (300 out of 300 on our qualfication course). If anything, I think the P2000 might be even more accurate than it's larger brother - even though it suffers from a shorter barrel...
WRT the LEM trigger being hard to "run," standing at the 7 yard line and making the banging noise as fast as I can without throwing shots, my splits with the P30 and P2000 are only microscopically slower than my splits with the G19 (.18-.22 splits with the HKs versus .15-.18 splits with the Glock). And, mind you, between early 08 and early 12, I shot at least 40K rounds through my issued and personal Glocks, and attended semi-annual "big name" training with them. The HKs are new to me, and I haven't used either in any major training courses yet...
So, there you have MY experience - worth precisely what you paid for it. If you're really ready to make the jump away from Glock, give HK, and specifically the P2000 LEM, a hard look.
Regards,
Kevin
Why is auto forward seen as such a bad thing? Just curious so don't kill me...
Simple. It is not a reliable means of loading your pistol. It MAY work with FMJ ammo, but fail with HP's. The other issue is that you are training yourself to do E-Reloads in a manner that does NOT work in all guns and the one time the guns doesn't load, you are screwed.
We see the above all the time. Shooter thinks gun is loaded (as he slammed home the mag causing it to auto forward), aims in at the target and gets a click instead of a bang. This is generally caused by the shooter making contact with the frame prior the mag being fully seated and the slide going forward.
C4
Why is auto forward seen as such a bad thing? Just curious so don't kill me...
"Auto forward", or slide closure from slide lock following seating of the magazine, will strip a round from the magazine and load the gun. Until it doesn't. It isn't a problem necessarily until the shooter relies upon it.
The frequency with which the slide closure occurs varies by shooter and manner of operating the gun. Some experience it consistently, others less so or not at all.
When experienced, you should run the slide to ensure a round is chambered. Doing so potentially loses a live round, but ensures the gun is in a loaded condition and ready to fire.
Psalms144.1
12-11-12, 12:20
Why is auto forward seen as such a bad thing? Just curious so don't kill me..."Auto forward" can lead to a VERY fast reload, or, can lead to a slide forward empty chamber (meaning "click" instead of "bang" when you need to readdress a threat), or, it can lead to a feedway stoppage because the round starts to be fed into the chamber before the magazine is fully seated.
Of those three options, two of them are in the Bad to VERY Bad category; and you cannot be CERTAIN you got the 1/3 "good" solution without pulling the trigger to find out...
You can, on the other hand, simply re-rack the slide anytime your pistol autoforwards, which will probably enusre a chambered round, but it takes a lot of extra time.
Better to use proper technique while reloading, and avoid a pistol that constantly demonstrates this problem...
Regards,
Kevin
RogerinTPA
12-11-12, 14:39
Prior to going full on with the M&P, I had a Gen 2 G23 for around a decade prior, and could shoot it well, but the grip angle sucked for me and felt uncomfortable to shoot. After owning and shooting various pistols (1911s, both full and commander, Beretta PX40 Storm, Browning HP, M9s, S&W 459 (my first auto), 669, 6906), I have to say that the Glock series has been the most uncomfortable pistol I've ever fired. I also didn't like it's stock trigger. Needless to say, it didn't get shot that often.
My first M&P was the 45 within a year of joining this forum through Grant. I was so impressed with the ergonomics, recoil impulse, control, and accuracy of it, that within a year, I traded in all my other pistols for the M&P series (9, 9c, & 40). All my M&Ps have over 10K rounds fired, the 9 I use as my training gun has around 17K+ rounds through it. The accuracy was pretty damn good on all of them and the triggers were a little gritty, but nothing I couldn't get used to. Over all, the stock triggers were not that bad. A few years later Apex came along with the Hard Sear, so I replaced everyone except for the .45 (which had a very acceptable stock trigger) with them. The 9c is a little effin tack driver. The 9 was the least accurate of the bunch. Having said that, I felt the sights I put on them initially were crappy. I spent few months shooting it, taking it to training and letting other knowledgeable folks (Instructors) shoot it to determine if the issue was with me. Since the results were the same (shooting 4 inches low) for all who shot it, I put some new sights on her. Since replacing them, they have been dialed in POA/POI. I ordered directly from Storm Lake and got a drop in barrel for the 9 earlier this year and got it 2 months later back in July, but had to leave for AFG in the next two days. When I rotated back from AFG in Sept., I put 2K rounds on the barrel, then shot it in a VTAC 1.5 pistol this past Oct. Even though not fitted, it is a certified tack driver now.
"Auto forward", or slide closure from slide lock following seating of the magazine, will strip a round from the magazine and load the gun. Until it doesn't. It isn't a problem necessarily until the shooter relies upon it.
The frequency with which the slide closure occurs varies by shooter and manner of operating the gun. Some experience it consistently, others less so or not at all.
When experienced, you should run the slide to ensure a round is chambered. Doing so potentially loses a live round, but ensures the gun is in a loaded condition and ready to fire.
My M&P does it consistently. Fortunately, it always loads a round reliably. Not a bad idea to rack it pre-emptively anyway, I guess. Something to consider.
gunrunner505
12-11-12, 16:49
Simple. It is not a reliable means of loading your pistol. It MAY work with FMJ ammo, but fail with HP's. The other issue is that you are training yourself to do E-Reloads in a manner that does NOT work in all guns and the one time the guns doesn't load, you are screwed.
We see the above all the time. Shooter thinks gun is loaded (as he slammed home the mag causing it to auto forward), aims in at the target and gets a click instead of a bang. This is generally caused by the shooter making contact with the frame prior the mag being fully seated and the slide going forward.
C4
Thank you Grant. My M&P40 has done it twice in anger. Once in a pistol class where i recognized the auto forward and continued the drill successfully, it clambered a round, and once in practice were I didn't recognize it and racked the slide. Watched a live round spit out. I wasn't trying for it either time though .
It is not a bonus and should never be classified as such.
Just random malfunctions in general (meaning Glock's not running).
C4
Now I'm really getting curious-previously you stipulated that you/he (not sure if both of you were there) observed/experienced autofowarding (causing FTFs) and stovepiping...neither are what I've seen/observed as a common Glock problem.
Now you're saying that it's was "random malfunctions in general" which goes from you citing relative specifics to fuzzy generalities-which is it?
I'm not trying to start a flame war on this, and I'm certainly not asserting that Glocks are flawless pieces of perfection-they're not, and the issues, particularly with post-2010 Gen 3 9mm Glocks and 9mm Gen4 Glocks are well established.
But what you're bringing up really doesnt seem to fit neatly into the identified issue parameters. The obvious questions that come into my mind are what was the skill/experience/familiarity level of the shooters involved (both intrinsically and specifically with the Glocks that they were using in the class), along with if a determination was made if they were using quality factory ammunition or Uncle Festus' Reload Specials...
Again, I think that it would be valuable if the actual instructor could chime in with his specific observations and comments...
Glock has taken it's sweet time to an extent in dealing with the Gen4/late Gen 3 issues, and they seem to be self-induced manufacturing/component dimensional and/or material composition problems. On the other hands, Smith & Wesson has literally taken years to come to effective solutions to some of the M&P foilables-and I really, really take offense to the need to automatically have to factor in the need (or highly probable need) to purchase an aftermarket barrel and trigger/fire control components to make any service automatic acceptably operationally accurate/reliable-that's a rather epic fail in my book-especially when there are other viable and cost-effective alternatives available.
Best, Jon
davebee456
12-11-12, 19:17
A Few Options...
1. Buy Slightly Used or Like New Glocks from 2000 to 2009,
(I think there are plenty out there in pawn shops and guns stores...)
2. M&P (Make sure you test accuracy)
3. HK or Walther PPQ
(get ready for $50-60 Magazines and No Spare Parts)
Now I'm really getting curious-previously you stipulated that you/he (not sure if both of you were there) observed/experienced autofowarding (causing FTFs) and stovepiping...neither are what I've seen/observed as a common Glock problem.
I think you are reading too much into this. We witness auto-forwarding that would result in a round not being chambered and then malfunctions from an unknown cause. As I was shooting in the class, I couldn't stop what I was doing and diagnose what happened (sorry). Since I dont know the cause, I cannot answer as too the reason. Could be the extractor, could be lack of PM's, I just don't know. If you don't to believe that is on you, but at the end of the day, my word is good around here. ;)
But what you're bringing up really doesnt seem to fit neatly into the identified issue parameters. The obvious questions that come into my mind are what was the skill/experience/familiarity level of the shooters involved (both intrinsically and specifically with the Glocks that they were using in the class), along with if a determination was made if they were using quality factory ammunition or Uncle Festus' Reload Specials...
Again, I think that it would be valuable if the actual instructor could chime in with his specific observations and comments...
Sorry that my experiences do not match up with yours. Is it possible that I see more Glocks than you? Could it be that I talk to instructors that see more Glocks than you as well? Just a thought.
Glock has taken it's sweet time to an extent in dealing with the Gen4/late Gen 3 issues, and they seem to be self-induced manufacturing/component dimensional and/or material composition problems. On the other hands, Smith & Wesson has literally taken years to come to effective solutions to some of the M&P foilables-and I really, really take offense to the need to automatically have to factor in the need (or highly probable need) to purchase an aftermarket barrel and trigger/fire control components to make any service automatic acceptably operationally accurate/reliable-that's a rather epic fail in my book-especially when there are other viable and cost-effective alternatives available.
Best, Jon
I understand that the consumer wants a perfect gun out of the box for $400. This sometimes occurs and sometimes things need to be tweaked some. No gun is perfect and I have either done a trigger job, changed sights, fitted barrels and added after market parts to every gun I own. In the end, they all are reliable, accurate and configured to my taste. I am fine with doing this.
YMMV.
Oh, my everyday carry gun is a GEN 2 19. :)
C4
Grant, I've followed your comments on this thread, and on the concurrent thread where you discuss the mertis and costs of your proprietiary Storm Lake fitted barrel for the M&P. Using your sites pricing, just the gun and the Storm Lake barrel comes to around $650-sounds good.
But then, you'll need to factor in a FFL transfer fee in all liklihood (around $40), and possibly sales tax-in my neck of the woods, around 9-10%.
And then, again using your website's pricing, if you go with just the M&P, factory sights, the Storm Lake barrel, and APEX sear, and APEX striker block, and a DCAEK-you're up to $810...plus whatever FFL, taxes, etc. are needed-and that's without a triggerjob, which you can concurrently offer, (and with all the components/work at that point, probably isn't such a bad idea).
Obviously, at this (and at several of the preceeding) point(s), there's a cost, if not a cost-effectiveness conundrum.
You're quite frankly putting an M&P squarely in HK P30/P30L territory-and at about double the price of a Glock, which, if it does need corrective work, Glock lately seems willing to do pretty much at their dime.
So, while I applaud your offerings, research, and efforts, unless I was committed (or my agency was committed) to an M&P, I think I'd go with one of the other alternatives.
Best, Jon
Grant, I've followed your comments on this thread, and on the concurrent thread where you discuss the mertis and costs of your proprietiary Storm Lake fitted barrel for the M&P. Using your sites pricing, just the gun and the Storm Lake barrel comes to around $650-sounds good.
But then, you'll need to factor in a FFL transfer fee in all liklihood (around $40), and possibly sales tax-in my neck of the woods, around 9-10%.
And then, again using your website's pricing, if you go with just the M&P, factory sights, the Storm Lake barrel, and APEX sear, and APEX striker block, and a DCAEK-you're up to $810...plus whatever FFL, taxes, etc. are needed-and that's without a triggerjob, which you can concurrently offer, (and with all the components/work at that point, probably isn't such a bad idea).
Obviously, at this (and at several of the preceeding) point(s), there's a cost, if not a cost-effectiveness conundrum.
You're quite frankly putting an M&P squarely in HK P30/P30L territory-and at about double the price of a Glock, which, if it does need corrective work, Glock lately seems willing to do pretty much at their dime.
So, while I applaud your offerings, research, and efforts, unless I was committed (or my agency was committed) to an M&P, I think I'd go with one of the other alternatives.
Best, Jon
First, no one is telling anyone to buy a new M&P, gut it and put a bunch of parts in it. The M&P (with the new trigger bar, sear and slide catch) and a little "at home" polishing is a REALLY good trigger IMHO. There also tons of people with 9mm M&P's that shoot 4" groups. So many people will be VERY happy with a bone stock M&P that cost $425 + fees.
With that said, some people will want a gun that can shoot better than 4" groups and custom trigger. This is of course their prerogative.
Now if we look at Glock, the odds of getting one that kicks brass in your face is pretty solid these days. Will Glock take it back? Yep. Does that mean you will get a problem free Glock? No.
GEN 4 Glocks are $550. This is $100 more than the M&P. Because of this, I would take the risk that the M&P will be accurate enough for defensive use. The flip side is you get a gun that either kicks brass in your face or malfunctions all the time. In the instance that you do get an M&P that does not shoot well, you will then be $75 more than the GEN 4 with a fitted barrel installed. This will give you a more accurate and reliable weapon than the Glock. This seems like a small amount to pay for what you get
C4
Your points above are well taken. And I suppose that the true value in the Storm Lake/G4I fitted barrel is to those who already have a 9mm M&P, and are saddled with a perceptually inaccurate (or insufficiently accurate ) gun.
While I think that you're drastically overstating the rate/incidence of issue with contemporary Glocks (particularly since you're measuring them against very recent 9mm M&P production-what with the improved trigger bars, sears and slide catches), I don't really have a solid statistical base to prove otherwise, other than anecdotally.
I guess ultimately, if I were a shooter without significant experience/loyalty/job obligation to either (or any) 9mm, I guess that I could see my way towards comfortably purchasing whichever I indexed and shot the best with. Obviously, I'm personally predisposed towards Glock, but I'm not exactly unbiased, either.
I guess that if I were to meander into the direction of a 9mm M&P, I'd be inclined to take a very hard look at the Julie Goloski-Golob offering-
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765717_-1_757775_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
concurrently insuring that I got a very recent production offering, and would be on standby to order one of your fitted barrels if my accuracy expectations weren't met. And I'm not being sarcastic-forget about the pink grip inserts-it comes with all the standard ones, and a set of Warren Tactical sights, well worth the minimal tarrif increase, and a bargain at that in my opinion.
Thanks for your patience and the illuminating discussion.
Best, Jon
Your points above are well taken. And I suppose that the true value in the Storm Lake/G4I fitted barrel is to those who already have a 9mm M&P, and are saddled with a perceptually inaccurate (or insufficiently accurate ) gun.
While I think that you're drastically overstating the rate/incidence of issue with contemporary Glocks (particularly since you're measuring them against very recent 9mm M&P production-what with the improved trigger bars, sears and slide catches), I don't really have a solid statistical base to prove otherwise, other than anecdotally.
I guess ultimately, if I were a shooter without significant experience/loyalty/job obligation to either (or any) 9mm, I guess that I could see my way towards comfortably purchasing whichever I indexed and shot the best with. Obviously, I'm personally predisposed towards Glock, but I'm not exactly unbiased, either.
I guess that if I were to meander into the direction of a 9mm M&P, I'd be inclined to take a very hard look at the Julie Goloski-Golob offering-
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765717_-1_757775_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
concurrently insuring that I got a very recent production offering, and would be on standby to order one of your fitted barrels if my accuracy expectations weren't met. And I'm not being sarcastic-forget about the pink grip inserts-it comes with all the standard ones, and a set of Warren Tactical sights, well worth the minimal tarrif increase, and a bargain at that in my opinion.
Thanks for your patience and the illuminating discussion.
Best, Jon
If people are invested with Glock (and they run), I wouldn't dump them and go to the M&P. So stick with what you like.
My comments are more geared towards folks that are first time HG buyers.
Oh, just for the record, JG runs a fitted Storm Lake barrel in your competition gun. ;)
C4
Psalms144.1
12-14-12, 08:33
Jon & Grant - great discussion. I see both of your points, and I hate both of you for always making me second guess switching to the HK...
I will say, for an LE guy like me, with the BASE M&P being the same cost as a Glock, I think the financial side favors the Glock. Now, if S&W is offering a decent trigger on the M&P from the factory (the ones I tried on early production guns were soft, mushy and just plain horrible), AND they work out the accuracy issues that seem to plague the 9FS (which seem to be about as common as BTF/FTE issues with the new Glock 9s), then I think the M&P line would really be a contender. God knows there are enough people out there who simply can't get used to the Glock grip angle...
For now, though, I'll stick with my HKs for the nonce.
Regards,
Kevin
Jon & Grant - great discussion. I see both of your points, and I hate both of you for always making me second guess switching to the HK...
I will say, for an LE guy like me, with the BASE M&P being the same cost as a Glock, I think the financial side favors the Glock. Now, if S&W is offering a decent trigger on the M&P from the factory (the ones I tried on early production guns were soft, mushy and just plain horrible), AND they work out the accuracy issues that seem to plague the 9FS (which seem to be about as common as BTF/FTE issues with the new Glock 9s), then I think the M&P line would really be a contender. God knows there are enough people out there who simply can't get used to the Glock grip angle...
For now, though, I'll stick with my HKs for the nonce.
Regards,
Kevin
Oh, I wouldn't have any concerns or second guesses about runnng an HK pistol. I own them and think they are one of the best (highest quality) pistols made.
I am a gun guy. This means that I own just about one of everything. Many people think I am a Glock "hater" and a M&P "fanboy." In all honesty, I own six Glocks and only TWO M&P's! :D I also believe that one of the best (if not the best) CCW gun ever designed is the G19.
Speaking of HK, I will be an HK LE Dealer in 2013 and look forward to being known as an HK "fanboy." :thank_you2:
C4
Kevin, fairly recently on www.pistol-forum.com, we had a interesting discussion on the state of affairs regarding a quality "out-of-the-box" duty/defensive handgun. The consensus was that pretty much all of the major players' quality/quality control has significantly slipped-and that while these major players usually are willing to make things right, an inordinate burden has been placed on the end user to catch things that frankly should have been caught and made right before the gun hit the market. Although HK isn't flawless, I'd say that they're probably the best from the manufacturing and quality control standpoint-but that comes at a price (literally) and sketchy aftermarket parts/magazine availability and support (although recent reports on this have been quite good) at times.
Obviously, a potential window of opportunity exists for upstarts like Caracel (although its predecessors, designed by Wilhelm Bubits have played to less than stellar results, and their goofy sight set-up and recent recall don't exactly inspire confidence in me at this point), Walther and FN.
Interestingly, Beretta's base 92 series and SIG-Sauers Sigpro 2022 continue to play to good reviews and results, and there's always FN/Browning's venerable Hi Power (albeit at HK prices, and limited production).
I sincerely hope that market forces (and the easy commuicative capabilities inherent to users via the internet) compel the major players to get their individual and collective acts together...
Best, Jon
Swamp Yankee
12-14-12, 09:21
Speaking of HK, I will be an HK LE Dealer in 2013 and look forward to being known as an HK "fanboy." :thank_you2:
C4
The HKPro guys are going to shit bricks when they hear about this!
The HKPro guys are going to shit bricks when they hear about this!
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?? :D
C4
Urban_Redneck
12-14-12, 10:06
Kevin, fairly recently on www.pistol-forum.com,
...Obviously, a potential window of opportunity exists for upstarts like Caracel (although its predecessors, designed by Wilhelm Bubits have played to less than stellar results, and their goofy sight set-up and recent recall don't exactly inspire confidence in me at this point)...
Best, Jon
Re: Caracal recall
1. Caracal admitted that there was a recall worthy problem 3 weeks after receiving the 2 pistols that fired when dropped.
2. Caracal informed owners that pistols would need to be returned and how that would be handled, plus made the offer a free mag, F.O. front sight installed $29, discount coupon, and T-shirt to help compensate for folks trouble.
3. Caracal identified the problem (out of spec frames), the fix (exchange for a brand new pistol), an alternative (direct buy back/refund including accessories), and gave us a date window to expect shipping boxes.
4. Owners that have custom sights, slide finishes, or want to keep their early WW marked pistols are being accommodated as well, though a trip back to UAE will add some weeks (months?) to their recall ordeal.
The Caracal recall isn't complete ( I have 2 pistols to exchange :eek: ) but, it seems Caracal has been forthright, taking the right steps to inform and satisfy the folks that purchased their pistols. While I could easily exchange one or both of my pistols and buy PPQ's (my plan B), I really prefer the Caracal trigger and low bore axis.
Certainly to this point, Glock adds few zeros on anything Caracal has done numbers wise , but, that is just a matter of scale. I have always admired the Glock juggernaut that built such brand loyalty and sold thousands upon thousands, of pistols, I hope they are not squandering it away over corporate pride or, short-term profit.
My $0.02
I would be opposed to buying anything from the United Arab Emirates. Caracal is a no-go for me just on principles let alone manfuacturing and design glitches.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?? :D
C4
You might want to go over there and lurk for awhile...
Psalms144.1
12-14-12, 12:34
Speaking of HK, I will be an HK LE Dealer in 2013 and look forward to being known as an HK "fanboy." :thank_you2:
C4Grant - I have three things to say to you:
"P"
"30"
"L"
You will be my BFF and the single source of my kids not being able to afford to go to college if you can break the supply code on getting those in...
Regards,
Kevin
Swamp Yankee
12-14-12, 13:30
Grant - I have three things to say to you:
"P"
"30"
"L"
You will be my BFF and the single source of my kids not being able to afford to go to college if you can break the supply code on getting those in...
Regards,
Kevin
I just got one. It is unbelievable.
Psalms144.1
12-14-12, 16:41
I just got one. It is unbelievable.I hate you. I don't even know you, but I hate you!
You might want to go over there and lurk for awhile...
I have many times. I don't remember seeing anything out of the norm from any other fan based forums.
C4
I have many times. I don't remember seeing anything out of the norm from any other fan based forums.
C4
Well, IMO, you have more "collectors" over there vs actual "shooters".(It's been awhile since I've been there last, so, maybe things have changed) I once got into a disscussion over there about whether or not you could shoot hard cast lead out of a HK, (you can, I've put over 2000rnds through my P-2000) But one person insisted you could'nt..He finally admitted that he did'nt actually own a HK pistol, and only collected HK rifles, and was going on what he'd read...So, I think there's more of a "collector" mentality, there..vs actual shooters,
Most forums are filled with more collectors than shooters. YVMV
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-15-12, 16:45
I am glad to hear you are going to be an HK dealer Grant. Now I can buy some more stuff from you!
HKpro used to be an EXCELLENT forum (years ago). But once they started letting certain people basically lie without you being able to contradict them I decided to lump it in with Sigforum (basically a picture forum).
I just went to my LGS to take a look for a replacement to my Gen 3 G19.
The glock just doesn't feel good in my hand and after the problems its had in the past I don't feel comfortable voiding the warranty by adjusting the grip.
The gen 4 felt nice, I feel like I can live with that as it is and maintain the warranty.
The HK P30 felt great as well but the trigger felt like absolute crap. It felt so sloppy that I don't know if that ruins the gun for me. I also don't know how I feel about the mag release.
The PPQ felt great, the trigger was pretty nice. It is so dam ugly and has the same type of mag release as the HK.
And lastly Im currently in possession of an M&P. Im not fully sold on that either due to its size. I really like the mid size guns like the others.
I really haven't met my soulmate handgun yet.
Most forums are filled with more collectors than shooters. YVMV
I'd like to think this one is'nt..
I just went to my LGS to take a look for a replacement to my Gen 3 G19.
The glock just doesn't feel good in my hand and after the problems its had in the past I don't feel comfortable voiding the warranty by adjusting the grip.
The gen 4 felt nice, I feel like I can live with that as it is and maintain the warranty.
The HK P30 felt great as well but the trigger felt like absolute crap. It felt so sloppy that I don't know if that ruins the gun for me. I also don't know how I feel about the mag release.
The PPQ felt great, the trigger was pretty nice. It is so dam ugly and has the same type of mag release as the HK.
And lastly Im currently in possession of an M&P. Im not fully sold on that either due to its size. I really like the mid size guns like the others.
I really haven't met my soulmate handgun yet.
Maybe see if the LGS has a P-30 with a LEM trigger...It's different, not exactly a DA/SA..I have a P-2000 with a light LEM, and it's kinda hard for me to discribe accurately, Trust me, the LEM is much better than the standard HK DA/SA trigger. They can be shot quickly, and accurately.You might want to ask around about them, and see if you could shoot one first before buying, I'll be honest, they're not for everyone..You may not like it either.. Unless you have real long fingers, the German style mag releases are, IMO much better than the American style release button, use your trigger finger to push the release levers down..(you'd be suprised how many people try to use them with their thumbs) They are quick to pick up on, and once you use them for awhile, you probably won't want to go back to the release button...
Maybe see if the LGS has a P-30 with a LEM trigger...It's different, not exactly a DA/SA..I have a P-2000 with a light LEM, and it's kinda hard for me to discribe accurately, Trust me, the LEM is much better than the standard HK DA/SA trigger. They can be shot quickly, and accurately.You might want to ask around about them, and see if you could shoot one first before buying, I'll be honest, they're not for everyone..You may not like it either.. Unless you have real long fingers, the German style mag releases are, IMO much better than the American style release button, use your trigger finger to push the release levers down..(you'd be suprised how many people try to use them with their thumbs) They are quick to pick up on, and once you use them for awhile, you probably won't want to go back to the release button...
At first I was trying to use my thumb wondering how that was possiablity until it dawned on me that it had to be with your finger. I don't recal having to break my grip dramatically to engage it. I did like it a lot. Ill have to track down one with the LEM because the trigger in there was really a deal breaker especially at that price.
As far as size goes it wasn't all that much smaller than the M&P and slightly bigger than the Glock... But worlds more comfortable.
If not Glock then who?
I have trouble believing this is even a serious question. Pick one, most any of them are far better than gLoCk in the first place.
I have trouble believing this is even a serious question. Pick one, most any of them are far better than gLoCk in the first place.
That is stretch no matter how biased you may be against Glock. Glock has been the Colt of the handgun world and for the price point traditionally has been the best out of the box handgun on the market.
mikelowrey
12-15-12, 22:12
I have trouble believing this is even a serious question. Pick one, most any of them are far better than gLoCk in the first place.
As far as I remember, Glock has 60% or more of the Law Enforcement Market, just sayin...
As far as I remember, Glock has 60% or more of the Law Enforcement Market, just sayin...
...and your point is? They were low bidder AND we equip law enforcement with nothing but the best? -Hardly.
mikelowrey
12-15-12, 22:22
They have shown reliability, they do what they are supposed to do. And even though people has more options such as M&P, Glock is still on top.
Is like a fellow poster said:
VIP3R 237: Glock has been the Colt of the handgun world and for the price point traditionally has been the best out of the box handgun on the market.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
12-16-12, 00:44
Have not- and will not- give up my G19.
Have not- and will not- give up my G19.
If you're lucky enough to have one that works then there's absolutely no reason to do so. This thread is for those who want to replace their malfunctioning Glock or are contemplating buying a 9mm and don't want to take the chance.
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