View Full Version : Scar 17 more versatile than m4?
I've been pretty set on picking up an m4 rifle as a defensive/training weapon, the primary reason being cost.
I'm in a situation where money is less of an issue and I'm re-examining picking up a .308 semi auto, particularly the scar 17.
My sense is that the scar is much more versatile than an m4. For a manageable trade off in weight you get a round with better range, barrier performance, and terminal ballistics while still seeming to be adequate for close-in work.
Is the scar 17 a more versatile platform than the m4? What does the scar give up beyond cost and weight?
KG_mauserman
12-08-12, 00:08
First off I have and really like the SCAR 17s. I have used my 17s in competitions and a couple of classes. I think its the best light wieght .308 on the market. It has a great balance of accuracy, reliability, and wieght.
That being said for a defensive weapon get an M4 or SCAR 16s first. I can run my SCAR 17s pretty darn fast, but not as fast as I can run a 5.56 carbine. Sure the 17s would work fine as a defensive carbine but there are better options. A 5.56 carbine is faster shot to shot more controlable and going to have a larger ammunition capacity than a SCAR 17s. .308 is not a magic caliber. Yes it will do things that 5.56 wont, but it comes at a cost of higher recoil, wieght, and size. Contrary to popular belief it does not vaporize targets on contact.
Personally I perfer the SCAR platform over the AR platform, but I feel that for a first "Black Rifle" a person should get a good AR (Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske). There is way more support for the AR platform in parts, knowledge, and training to not go with that as a first rifle plus you can buy one for almost half the price of admission to a SCAR. If you have your mind set on a SCAR then I would recommend the 16s first and learn the basics on that.
I would recommend the SCAR 17s as a first rifle in only two scenerios. "A" you only want one rifle for a defensive weapon AND hunting weapon. "B" you really really want a SCAR 17s. If that's the case then get what you really want... its America!
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 01:40
There is a very good reason that the scar 17 is not general issue anywhere.
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There is a very good reason that the scar 17 is not general issue anywhere.
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I'll bite, what reason is that?
Because it's 308?
Given the cost of .308 in the last few years I'd never want my one as a first grab rifle.
My G3s, FALs and M1As don't get as much trigger time as they did 10 years ago.
lethal dose
12-08-12, 02:50
I'd say the SCAR is far less versatile if you'd even just consider parts availability alone.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-08-12, 05:29
I think 308 is more versatile than 5.56 but that wasn't the question
KG_mauserman
12-08-12, 09:36
There is a very good reason that the scar 17 is not general issue anywhere.
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Generally your posts are more informative than this. Innuendos have little value. I respect what you have to say and agree with you 90% of the time so if you have some intel on the SCAR 17s I'd love to hear what you have to say.
There is a very good reason that the scar 17 is not general issue anywhere.
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Yeah, the price of admission to implement on the heels of two decade long wars.
That said, there is more than enough evidence suggesting that the Mk17 is enjoying heavy usage by some units within the US DoD.
The SCAR17 is a very soft shooting 7.62 NATO rifle.
But, you're still going to be slower doing follow up shots than a 5.56 NATO rifle. You're also giving up mag capacity.
Is 7.62 a better all purpose* round than 5.56? Probably. But wither it's better for you depends on what you're trying to do with it.
H
*Target shooting, SD, hunting...
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 10:28
Generally your posts are more informative than this. Innuendos have little value. I respect what you have to say and agree with you 90% of the time so if you have some intel on the SCAR 17s I'd love to hear what you have to say.
I don't mean to be secret squirrel, but NDAs prevent disclosure of specifics.
What I can say is that they frequently break optics and have shown some parts failures.
I'm not saying that the gun is junk, simply pointing out that there is a reason for the cost disparity between the 17 and the M110 variants. Given a few decades of refinement, I'm sure that the 17 will be a pretty nice platform.
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I don't mean to be secret squirrel, but NDAs prevent disclosure of specifics.
What I can say is that they frequently break optics and have shown some parts failures.
I'm not saying that the gun is junk, simply pointing out that there is a reason for the cost disparity between the 17 and the M110 variants. Given a few decades of refinement, I'm sure that the 17 will be a pretty nice platform.
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I think the optic issue is pretty well known, but is there anything you can share on parts failures beyond the plastic latch issue?
There are a fair number of SCAR17s out in the wild and reports of significant issues seem almost non-existent. Other than people bitching about charging handle placement I haven't really seen more than a couple. Contrast that with the SR25, which is probably in far fewer hands, and the proportion of people who've had reliability issues seem significantly higher. I've also seen a few credible reports of issue M110s having problems (I'd really have to dig to find them as it's been awhile). It's a bit tough to reconcile this data with what your'e saying, not being privy to the information you have.
Is the reliability (and lack of reliabillty of the SCAR) a recent thing? LAV made the following comments (from a class you were in) saying:
The KAC SR25 carbines in the class not only were accurate but reliable - the only two stoppages out of 4000-5000 rds shot thru 10 different guns was an over insertion of a PMAG and a failure to feed from a PMAG ( both mag related IMO) ;I was extremely impressed. KAC has really put serious effort into making that carbine accurate and reliable. Trust me just a few years ago the results would have been different .
That makes it seem like a relatively new development.
sinlessorrow
12-08-12, 12:55
I don't mean to be secret squirrel, but NDAs prevent disclosure of specifics.
What I can say is that they frequently break optics and have shown some parts failures.
I'm not saying that the gun is junk, simply pointing out that there is a reason for the cost disparity between the 17 and the M110 variants. Given a few decades of refinement, I'm sure that the 17 will be a pretty nice platform.
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I would say the SCAR-H is still one of the best 7.62 battle rifles. The M110 line has had numerous relibility issue reports.
Actually until recently the SR-25 was not that reliable, though LAV's recent class seems to show they finally figured it out after all these years.
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 13:01
You have to understand that the M110 is an evolving platform. The current guns are a result of decades of use, input, and refinement. The ECC/M110K1 is not a Mk11 mod 0. Further, there are far more M110s in service than Mk17s/Mk20s. They have a wide user base of competent professionals, where the 17 has a much smaller, much more private user base (with essentially only 1 user group).
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Magic_Salad0892
12-08-12, 13:23
You have to understand that the M110 is an evolving platform. The current guns are a result of decades of use, input, and refinement. The ECC/M110K1 is not a Mk11 mod 0. Further, there are far more M110s in service than Mk17s/Mk20s. They have a wide user base of competent professionals, where the 17 has a much smaller, much more private user base (with essentially only 1 user group).
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Correct me if I'm wrong, F2S.
But M110 guns are also subject to the military's crappy maintenence issues. Also it should be taken into account that on the M110 system:
The bolt carrier is different. (Closer to LMT's Enhanced on the new SR-25s.)
The buffer system is slightly different.
The gas port is different.
It's a totally different animal, IMHO. It'd be like comparing a Mk. 12 to the AK. Both are good guns, but it's not really fair to compare them in any way.
KAC needs to bring back the ambi controls on the SR-25 though. I can't see why they phased 'em out.
I don't have a M110K1, but I have both variants of the MK11. If I had a K1, I'd probably carry that. However, I'm not taking a gun to a gunfight with a manufacturer spec'd rate of fire of 5rpm. That's the first reason I carry a MK17 often. I have had a few negative experiences with the M110/MK11 MOD 2; I'll carry the MK17 instead. I love the MK11 MOD 0, but in my experience it's not twice as accurate as a MK17, but about twice the weight, and more bulky. That's a big reason for it getting left in the box.
The MK17 is not without faults. People have different gripes about it. The stock, especially it's latch mechanism is an area of contention for many people. Some people either don't mind or hate the reciprocating charging handle. That's more of a preference thing. Recoil is obviously going to be more, as it is a very light gun, firing a much bigger round as compared to an M4.
The MK17 has some things going for it. Ambi controls, enough said on that. I know the M110 has them as well. In my opinion and experience, it has a better weight to accuracy ratio as compared to a lot of the .308 "AR's".
As to the original question, the MK17 is a great gun. It's not perfect, but it fills a role very well. That role is for a rifle needed to engage targets beyond the capabilities of an M4. If I had no need for that, I wouldn't carry it. Don't be dissuaded into thinking any gun is perfect, because they aren't.
MadAngler1
12-08-12, 15:41
I've been pretty set on picking up an m4 rifle as a defensive/training weapon, the primary reason being cost.
I'm in a situation where money is less of an issue and I'm re-examining picking up a .308 semi auto, particularly the scar 17.
My sense is that the scar is much more versatile than an m4. For a manageable trade off in weight you get a round with better range, barrier performance, and terminal ballistics while still seeming to be adequate for close-in work.
Is the scar 17 a more versatile platform than the m4? What does the scar give up beyond cost and weight?
jc000, I would ignore the KAC vs. FN pissing match written by some of the posters above. Instead, I think the M4 is still more versatile for most users overall than the SCAR-H or any .308 battle rifle. The SCAR-H fulfills a certain duty requirement for a battle rifle with 600-800 yard capability for Spec Ops in Afghanistan who are engaging Taliban in open terrain. 7.62 NATO makes sense in that situation, and the SCAR can still be used in house to house fighting. As the LAV pointed out in his SCAR episode, there are times where troops would find themselves heading out of a house to see Taliban running away 400-500 yards down a road. This is where a .308 battle rifle is nice for obvious reasons.
For civilians like you and me, a M4 should be more than adequate for our go to gun, as the engagements we'll deal with include either home defense or a worst case scenario zombie apocalypse fought at close range (< 200 yards). 5.56 NATO gets the job done quite nice in that situation. Shot placement is key, and the newer Hornady TAP and barrier blind rounds make the platform quite effective. Besides the factors of cost and weight you listed with the SCAR-H, the SCAR-H's heavier recoil, larger bulkier magazines, make it a little less nimble than a M4 in such a situation. Try walking around your house with a decked out M4 that has a light attached and then try to walk around carrying the SCAR. <200 yards in, I'm going to prefer the M4 unless my opponents are zombies with class IV body armor :p
I own both a SCAR-H and a couple of AR-15 variants. I would grab my M4 carbine clone first if I had to defend my home, because it's lighter, smaller, arguably easier to use (since I am more familiar with the platform) and would do the job just fine.
Am I making any sense? ;) I think it comes down to what you're using it for. Having said that, think about what you need a .308 rifle for. Do you want a battle rifle or do you have a range where you can practice out to 600-1000 yards? I don't have a long range within 120 miles of where I live, so I chose the battle rifle (SCAR-H) for collection purposes and for the intent of taking a battle rifle class in the near future. If you want a precision rig, then something like a Larue OBR makes more sense than the SCAR-H.
Wow really great responses here. Appreciate it a lot.
Hunting is definitely a consideration. Now I know I could pick up an m4 and a bolt action .308 for less than a scar 17, but I'd rather focus on one rifle.
I can't imagine a defensive situation where I'd have any sort of "back-up". Without armor and machine gun support I think the versatility of the .308 round would serve me well as a defensive and hunting weapon.
That being said, what I was not sure of was whether the benefits of .308 outweighed the deficiencies of the scar against the m4 in terms if cost, weight, close quarters ability, and "handiness". I am not looking for a precision rig.
In the end, it sounds like the trade off in the .308 round's versatility doesn't justify spending 2.5x more than the lighter, quicker m4. I'd like to spend some time lugging around and shooting with the scar as a basis of comparison but i cannot see how ill pull that one off.
Thx for all the great input.
Maybe it's just me, but after picking up the SCAR-17, I want an SR-25 to go along with it!
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 22:01
Correct me if I'm wrong, F2S.
But M110 guns are also subject to the military's crappy maintenence issues. Also it should be taken into account that on the M110 system:
The bolt carrier is different. (Closer to LMT's Enhanced on the new SR-25s.)
The buffer system is slightly different.
The gas port is different.
It's a totally different animal, IMHO. It'd be like comparing a Mk. 12 to the AK. Both are good guns, but it's not really fair to compare them in any way.
KAC needs to bring back the ambi controls on the SR-25 though. I can't see why they phased 'em out.
If you are saying that comparing a Mk11 mod whatever to a current M110/M110A1/K1/K2 is an apples to baseballs scenario, I agree.
We do have ambi controls on our most current SR25 line.
There are some contracts that do not have ambi controls, as per their requirements.
jc000, I would ignore the KAC vs. FN pissing match written by some of the posters above.
I'm not so sure that I would call that a pissing match when really it was an end user jumping in to check the claims of a KAC employee that was seizing an opportunity to bash their main competition. Additionally, the bashing was completely unprovoked as there was zero mention of KAC products, good or bad, in this thread prior to this shot across the bow. I really hope that M4C community recognizes these shenanigans.
I love KAC products and own a few, but no way is there a performance delta corresponding to a 100% price disparity between these two products. That comment is a ridiculous attempt at justifying a gun that is over the top expensive. And like the SR25 hasn't had its issues either... There are more iterations of the SR25 than there are of Magpul Pmags! How many times do you want to drop $4-$5k before they finally settle on something that works as it should! As much as I wanted one, I sure am glad I didn't buy and EMC now that the ECC is out (with yet another +$1K jump in price).
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 22:11
However, I'm not taking a gun to a gunfight with a manufacturer spec'd rate of fire of 5rpm. That's the first reason I carry a MK17 often. I have had a few negative experiences with the M110/MK11 MOD 2; I'll carry the MK17 instead.
The spec'd 5 rpm is for those that are being employed in a precision role, as per the requirements of the M110/Mk11. The shorter, newer guns are built for a different purpose (one that you are well aware of), and to a different requirement and firing schedule.
Don't be dissuaded into thinking any gun is perfect, because they aren't.
Absolutely agree.
I'm not trying to tell anyone that we make the perfect gun, simply trying to provide information when it comes up.
sinlessorrow
12-08-12, 22:13
If you are saying that comparing a Mk11 mod whatever to a current M110/M110A1/K1/K2 is an apples to baseballs scenario, I agree.
We do have ambi controls on our most current SR25 line.
There are some contracts that do not have ambi controls, as per their requirements.
How is it aples to baseballs? They are basically the same gun...no? Alsowhat is the current M110?
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 22:18
How is it aples to baseballs? They are basically the same gun...no?
Basically, yes, in the sense that a M16A1 is essentially an M4A1.
There has been a lot of refinement and advancement since the first iterations.
Failure2Stop
12-08-12, 22:48
I'm not so sure that I would call that a pissing match when really it was an end user jumping in to check the claims of a KAC employee that was seizing an opportunity to bash their main competition.
Bashing?
I noted that the Mk17 is not general issue, and has publicly known problems.
My affiliation with Knight's is crystal clear, and I understand why you may think that I am trying to denigrate their product for personal gain, but individual sales of our products and FN products has zero impact on me. I liaise between our military and government end users and our company to provide them with what they ask for. I don't sell anything, I meet requirements and refine products. Here on M4Carbine I have been a moderator for far longer than I have been an employee of Knight's. My resume is easily found by anyone looking for it. I was involved in the SCAR program since EUA 3 and am still bound by nondisclosure agreements (NDAs) from then, which I have not and will not violate.
Additionally, the bashing was completely unprovoked as there was zero mention of KAC products, good or bad, in this thread prior to this shot across the bow. I really hope that M4C community recognizes these shenanigans.
I compared the M110/M110K1 to the Mk17 since they are the only two modern 7.62 weapons being used by the military. The Mk17 is a new acquisition, and is often compared to the past performance of legacy SR25s, where it should be compared to the newer purpose-built models. These new products have the benefit of decades of data gathering and refinement. As I said before, I am sure that given the same refinement the Mk17 will iron out the issues and become more versatile.
My "drive-by" initial post was not an unprovoked assault, simply a jumping board for discussion. Some would call it a Socratic approach.
I love KAC products and own a few, but no way is there a performance delta corresponding to a 100% price disparity between these two products. That comment is a ridiculous attempt at justifying a gun that is over the top expensive. And like the SR25 hasn't had its issues either... There are more iterations of the SR25 than there are of Magpul Pmags! How many times do you want to drop $4-$5k before they finally settle on something that works as it should! As much as I wanted one, I sure am glad I didn't buy and EMC now that the ECC is out (with yet another +$1K jump in price).
I'm not here to tell you that you need a $4k anything. If you are happy with what you own, and it does what you want it to do, then I would say that you made a smart purchase. Sometimes it takes $1 to get what you need, sometimes it takes $1,000,000, it all depends on what you want.
Littlehendrick
12-08-12, 23:29
To the OP,
As others have mentioned, there is a large price difference in ammo between 556 and 762. This has huge implications when considering training. I do not know your skill set or background, but there is always something new to learn or try. Pushing out a thousand rounds for 360 or over 500, it can add up quickly. Also, the entry level cost of a scar 17 vs a "standard" AR is quite large. For the same price as a SCAR, you could have a BCM with an optic, training, and ammo. If money is not such an issue, then by all means ignore my argument. Others have also made good comments about the 308/223 discussion.
Sidenote- part of me still wants to ignore the price logic and buy a SCAR 17 for myself as a second "black rifle"
Alaskapopo
12-08-12, 23:34
I've been pretty set on picking up an m4 rifle as a defensive/training weapon, the primary reason being cost.
I'm in a situation where money is less of an issue and I'm re-examining picking up a .308 semi auto, particularly the scar 17.
My sense is that the scar is much more versatile than an m4. For a manageable trade off in weight you get a round with better range, barrier performance, and terminal ballistics while still seeming to be adequate for close-in work.
Is the scar 17 a more versatile platform than the m4? What does the scar give up beyond cost and weight?
I got a SCAR 17 and started using it as my patrol rifle. It is more versatile than the M4 or any 5.56 carbine.
I got the Scar and set it up so it could fill the role as a LEO patrol rifle where we have to deal with large animals like bear and moose. I have it set up with a off set Aimpoint R1 and a Nightforce 2.5-10. So it also can fill in if need be as a precision rifle for LEO type ranges fairly easily. It does have downsides I can not shoot it as fast as my 5.56 carbines nor is it as manurverable. But it does the mission I need it to do. I have more unique needs being in Alaska. If bears were not an issue then I would probably go back to on of my 5.56 carbines.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20Auto%20rifles/SCARwithNightforce.jpg
F2S, If my initial assessment of your intentions was off base I apologize. I appreciate your wanting to jump on board, but alluding to a body of evidence that you are bound from discussing while working for the competition is going raise flags in my mind (and going to make for a short converation that will beg more questions than it answers). I absolutely believe that you believe in and thus stand behind the superiority of your product (i.e., drink the KoolAid, we all do).
Failure2Stop
12-09-12, 09:16
Some of my posts were meant for the "AR10s don't work" thread, but got placed in here due to the course of the discussion and stop and go posting from my phone.
On the original topic:
I find the 308 to be more versatile than 5.56, individual weapons will all have their quirks. I would recommend picking a caliber first and then figuring out which gun best fits your needs.
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MadAngler1
12-09-12, 19:59
I got a SCAR 17 and started using it as my patrol rifle. It is more versatile than the M4 or any 5.56 carbine.
I got the Scar and set it up so it could fill the role as a LEO patrol rifle where we have to deal with large animals like bear and moose. I have it set up with a off set Aimpoint R1 and a Nightforce 2.5-10. So it also can fill in if need be as a precision rifle for LEO type ranges fairly easily. It does have downsides I can not shoot it as fast as my 5.56 carbines nor is it as manurverable. But it does the mission I need it to do. I have more unique needs being in Alaska. If bears were not an issue then I would probably go back to on of my 5.56 carbines.
Pat
I'm glad you pointed out the maneuverability issue. Any .308 rifle won't be as fast as a 5.56 NATO M4. Shooting moose and bear is another story, in which case lugging around a SCAR-H makes perfect sense for someone like yourself.
F2S and JPB: I think what we need is a damn randomized control trial of 10-20 FN SCAR-H vs. whatever newest iteration of a 16" inch chrome lined KAC SR-25 16" carbine using KAC 20 round steel magazines (no PMAGs). We'll fire strictly M80 ball from Winchester or Federal, along with 175 grain SMKs (M118LR). Put 5000 rounds through each gun under various conditions (dirt, snow/ice, mud, sand) with generous amounts of a modern lubricant (like Slip 2000 EWL, not plain CLP) and see who wins. I would want the trial overseen by someone like the LAV, Ken Hackathorn or the like, who can fish out the B.S. and who possesses a fair degree of technical knowledge on guns.
Until that time, I, as a civilian, lack sufficient evidence to say the SCAR-H is superior to the latest ECC SR-25 16" carbine or vice versa. It is my personal opinion that the SCAR would probably win out in terms of reliability. I base my opinion on it's operating system alone (piston vs. DI) and magazine design (partially FAL style vs. AR-10). The SR-25 would win the accuracy contest out to 800 yards since it lacks a large reciprocating mass besides the bolt carrier. My opinion of course, means squat until I see this trial carried out.
I got a SCAR 17 and started using it as my patrol rifle. It is more versatile than the M4 or any 5.56 carbine.
I got the Scar and set it up so it could fill the role as a LEO patrol rifle where we have to deal with large animals like bear and moose. I have it set up with a off set Aimpoint R1 and a Nightforce 2.5-10. So it also can fill in if need be as a precision rifle for LEO type ranges fairly easily. It does have downsides I can not shoot it as fast as my 5.56 carbines nor is it as manurverable. But it does the mission I need it to do. I have more unique needs being in Alaska. If bears were not an issue then I would probably go back to on of my 5.56 carbines.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20Auto%20rifles/SCARwithNightforce.jpg
Pat (great looking SCAR),
What barrel length is that and is it your preferred length? I know the TX Rangers asked for Mark to make them the PredatOBRs in 14.5" as they said they wanted a 7.62 for 300yd engagements.
Do you have a cartridge that you feel comfortable house clearing with?
The Nightforce which reticle did you go with? Like it?
Given the cost of .308 in the last few years I'd never want my one as a first grab rifle.
My G3s, FALs and M1As don't get as much trigger time as they did 10 years ago.
Amen.
Until the SR-25 EMC and LMT MWS came out I wouldn't have trusted a .308 AR that didn't come on an H&H, Telko, Sendra or Specialty Arms receiver.
I'd have a lot of confidence in either the KAC or SCAR-H, because I know SME's that have sold virtually every AR they had to get a couple of the high quality .308's on the market.
For them it was the right tool, but I'm a sissy, so I run 5.5 pound colt commandos and krinks. :p
YMMV
Alaskapopo
12-10-12, 01:41
Pat (great looking SCAR),
What barrel length is that and is it your preferred length? I know the TX Rangers asked for Mark to make them the PredatOBRs in 14.5" as they said they wanted a 7.62 for 300yd engagements.
Do you have a cartridge that you feel comfortable house clearing with?
The Nightforce which reticle did you go with? Like it?
Its a 16 inch gun it looks shorter because I have the rail extension. I like to hold further out ont he handguard. I think this length is about rigth for my needs.
I use 2 loads for work. For normal situations where I want to minimize over penetration I use Horndays 155 grain Amax tap which penetrates 15 inches in gelatine. For critters and the possible felony stop around vehicles I have Horndays 165 grain barrier Tap round. Which is basically an interbond bullet commonly used in hunting.
I had the Nightforce on a another gun and moved it over its the low velocity reticle which matches up perfectly with my 155 grain amax load.
Pat
Guys, not to speak for Jack, but I in no way took his post as pissing on FN. Infact, a quick search should find you several post by Jack where he states the Mk17 is a solid choice for a battle rifle role. Like Al-POPO, I sometimes carry my 17 CQC on patrol. It handles extremely well for a 7.62x51. It kicks more no doubt, but if you man up and drive the rifle accordingly, it is nothing that I feel would be detrimental in a CQC enviroment. Mine is shorter, so it does have a huge bark indoors, I'll trade that bark for having an extremely handy, lightweight rifle to deal with potential barrier problems. We are fortunate in the large selection of GTG practical 762 rifles on the market. If I had the money, no doubt I'd have the KAC too as a buddy has a KAC EM Carbine and it is ungodly accurate. My SCAR, like most all SCAR 17s is 1-3 MOA depending on ammo. The KAC my buddy has, over time has turned in some amazing groups.
To the OP: Buy a quality 556 M4 and support items. Take the cost difference from the 17 and take a class from a well vetted instructor. No matter what your background, you'll gain more in the long run via knowledge than just buying a 17 now.
COZ ZINZKI
12-29-12, 18:45
If you can handle the additional cost of a superior carbine, as the SCAR17s , by all means , try to get one now. By SUPERIOR, I do mean, easier to clean, acurate enough, for longer range ... one shot stops. I am not discounting the lethality of a fine M-4 . I have respect for the peole who have trained with all Sporting Utility Rifles . Knowing that I have 17-S. & I bought it when it was reasonable, and Larry V. TOLD ME ... from T.V. THAT HE LIKES IT.. SOLD ME... I'm tellin' ya' I'd rather be armed with my Scar 17 & 10 loaded mags; than my M-4 with the same amt. of loaded ammo. I'll take my big Apple over my medium Orange any-Day.
sinlessorrow
12-29-12, 19:40
If you can handle the additional cost of a superior carbine, as the SCAR17s , by all means , try to get one now. By SUPERIOR, I do mean, easier to clean, acurate enough, for longer range ... one shot stops. I am not discounting the lethality of a fine M-4 . I have respect for the peole who have trained with all Sporting Utility Rifles . Knowing that I have 17-S. & I bought it when it was reasonable, and Larry V. TOLD ME ... from T.V. THAT HE LIKES IT.. SOLD ME... I'm tellin' ya' I'd rather be armed with my Scar 17 & 10 loaded mags; than my M-4 with the same amt. of loaded ammo. I'll take my big Apple over my medium Orange any-Day.
Unless you shoot them in the head or severe their spinal cord one shot stops are not something that really happens.
Unless you shoot them in the head or severe their spinal cord one shot stops are not something that really happens.
Exactly, someone has been watching to many movies. Whether it's 5.56 or 7.62 a one shot kill isn't likely.
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COZ ZINZKI
12-29-12, 21:20
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
bondmid003
12-29-12, 21:49
Just my two cents but switching between regular and all caps makes your posts dificult to read. Also with a post count of six you may not want to tell others your word is gospel.
Failure2Stop
12-29-12, 21:56
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
What?
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Pat, thatt's about how my SCAR-H was setup, other than Aimpoint being T1 and NF being x24, now n/a for civilian market.
After running the setup through 2 days of a carbine class, I removed T1. I think SCAR is the worst platform to run an offset dot, but that's just my opinion.
I also use a Grip-pod instead of regular bipod and I removed the extension.
As far as the original question in regards to versatillity, here is a rifle that can be run upclose almost as effectively as M4, and then shot out to 800 or so almost as well as a precision rig. Hard to argue with versatility part, no?
sinlessorrow
12-29-12, 23:35
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
Sorry I have shot one at my local range, it's a nice rifle but nothin spectacular.
Shot placement is key with any caliber. The 7.62 is not a magic bullet, a bad placed shot is still a bad placed shot and if you hit them in a place that would equate to a one shot kill it would be the same with a 5.56 as well. Even a shotto the head does not mean the perp will die. There have been a few cases of people being shot in the head, or having a hunting knife stabbed into their skull and they lived.
I hate to break it to you but 7.62 is nothing special.
Iraq Ninja
12-30-12, 00:06
I hate to break it to you but 7.62 is nothing special.
Unless you have to shoot through something to kill someone. My experience is that 7.62 makes a big difference with vehicles, mud huts, and thick cover.
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1458844&postcount=16
GOOD LUCK..... Travis 1985 . Being a newbee myself, I'm interested in the suggestions too. S&W has a whole lot of models. but Rock River Arms..... HAS THE MORE ATTRACTIVE PRICES.
So you're no longer a rookie four weeks later? You don't really have any coherent thoughts.
sinlessorrow
12-30-12, 00:24
Unless you have to shoot through something to kill someone. My experience is that 7.62 makes a big difference with vehicles, mud huts, and thick cover.
I was talking more in the IT's so AWESOME it BLOWS people UP with ONE bullet...:cool:
kaltesherz
12-30-12, 01:14
Larry V. TOLD ME ... from T.V. THAT HE LIKES IT.. SOLD ME.
LAV has said a lot more about the AR and versatility than the SCAR H. Not that I'm knocking the Mk 17, but I've humped a 7.62 battle rifle and an M4 in combat, and for all around use the M4 is still a better option for most situations. But I didn't get that from TV, I got that from a year in Afghanistan- so shows you how much I know.
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
I have shot a Scar 17. Also, I have quite a bit of trigger time on EBR's in Iraq and Afghanistan. When you come up with a real argument get back to me.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 03:52
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
I'll go on a limb here, and say that I belive that Jeff Cooper was wrong about nearly everything he said.
Littlelebowski
12-30-12, 06:33
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
Wait...... This is a joke, right?
Littlelebowski
12-30-12, 06:47
F2S, If my initial assessment of your intentions was off base I apologize. I appreciate your wanting to jump on board, but alluding to a body of evidence that you are bound from discussing while working for the competition is going raise flags in my mind (and going to make for a short converation that will beg more questions than it answers). I absolutely believe that you believe in and thus stand behind the superiority of your product (i.e., drink the KoolAid, we all do).
I had to restrain myself from chewing you out. If you knew F2S, you wouldn't have said the things you did.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon.... in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I'm not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I'LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE... and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP... THIS YEAR .. TO FIND A -- Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH... WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW..... I' m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
You know that Cooper was wrong on lots of things right? In fact, people that spent time with him (as instructors) have some interesting tales to tell. One of my favorites is that he was so stubborn that even when HE KNEW he was wrong, he wouldn't admit it for fear that people would then second guess everything he had written or said. :rolleyes:
If you are not willing to change and or re-examine your position, you are a fool.
If you are a SCAR (16 or 17) that is fine with me. Just note that when parts break (and they do), you won't be able to run to your local gun dealer and get parts to fix it. On top of this, the 17 mags are rude money and rare. If that doesn't make you re-think the 17, you should seek medication. ;)
C4
Littlelebowski
12-30-12, 08:57
I think COZ ZINSKI is a child or or senile. Not worth our time and needs site access moderated or just needs to be outright banned.
You know that Cooper was wrong on lots of things right? In fact, people that spent time with him (as instructors) have some interesting tales to tell. One of my favorites is that he was so stubborn that even when HE KNEW he was wrong, he wouldn't admit it for fear that people would then second guess everything he had written or said. :rolleyes:
If you are not willing to change and or re-examine your position, you are a fool.
If you are a SCAR (16 or 17) that is fine with me. Just note that when parts break (and they do), you won't be able to run to your local gun dealer and get parts to fix it. On top of this, the 17 mags are rude money and rare. If that doesn't make you re-think the 17, you should seek medication. ;)
C4
I would anticipate FN will continue to service what they sell, but obviously a 17 should not be your "one and only" in today's political climate. Tomorrow (well a few of them), this could change again.
As to the original question, there is not doubt a .308/7.62 (especially the 17) will do some things better than the 5.56. Leaving the battlefield scenarios out, the number of rounds that can be carried is not even a huge consideration (IMO).
And he time difference in drills is surprisingly small, at least in my hands.
As a hunting tool, there is no comparison if a clean one shot kill (aka hunting ethics) is important - and I've killed deer with both calibers.
Shooting through things has already been covered by those that have the requisite experience.
So if you look past the pure self defense option - assuming soft targets - (or maybe you don't - assuming other than soft targets), it's pretty easy to make the case.
I would anticipate FN will continue to service what they sell, but obviously a 17 should not be your "one and only" in today's political climate. Tomorrow (well a few of them), this could change again.
You must not have dealt with FN before. I am an LE dealer for them and have found them to be a PITA company to deal with. Getting a gun "serviced" by the factory is all well an good, but is honestly a long and painful process. Many times it is faster and easier to either stock spare parts or go to your local dealer and pick up parts. Not so with the SCAR.
As to the original question, there is not doubt a .308/7.62 (especially the 17) will do some things better than the 5.56. Leaving the battlefield scenarios out, the number of rounds that can be carried is not even a huge consideration (IMO).
I wasn't going into the difference between the two calibers (as that has been discussed thousands of times). They each serve a purpose.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 10:08
I think COZ ZINSKI is a child or or senile. Not worth our time and needs site access moderated or just needs to be outright banned.
I think we should keep him around for comedic value.
If you are a SCAR (16 or 17) that is fine with me. Just note that when parts break (and they do), you won't be able to run to your local gun dealer and get parts to fix it. On top of this, the 17 mags are rude money and rare. If that doesn't make you re-think the 17, you should seek medication. ;)
C4
Nor will you able to fix a KAC .308 rifle at your LGS - I doubt they'd even be able to remove URX, and another .308 option would likely need to be shipped to Leander, TX for any fixing.
As far as mags, current insanity non withstanding, I stocked a bunch of them at $34 apiece through Midway's backorder list. This is at almost 1/3 of KAC mag price, and less than half of Larue's.
I am sure there are enough valid points to critique SCAR-H, but individual weapon support and parts/mag prices availability of alternative .308 options isn't better at all. So if .308 is what you need or want, the H may be a better logistic option. If 5.56 is sufficient, then it is obviously an easier option.
Nor will you able to fix a KAC .308 rifle at your LGS - I doubt they'd even be able to remove URX, and another .308 option would likely need to be shipped to Leander, TX for any fixing.
Many parts in the AR10 are interchangeable. So yes, you can fix many things.
As far as mags, current insanity non withstanding, I stocked a bunch of them at $34 apiece through Midway's backorder list. This is at almost 1/3 of KAC mag price, and less than half of Larue's.
I waited 12 months to receive my first shipment. I have two words for you: 308 PMAG.
I am sure there are enough valid points to critique SCAR-H, but individual weapon support and parts/mag prices availability of alternative .308 options isn't better at all. So if .308 is what you need or want, the H may be a better logistic option. If 5.56 is sufficient, then it is obviously an easier option.
Sorry, disagree.
C4
montanadave
12-30-12, 10:32
I had to restrain myself from chewing you out. If you knew F2S, you wouldn't have said the things you did.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
Good links. Interesting reading.
Many parts in the AR10 are interchangeable. So yes, you can fix many things.
I waited 12 months to receive my first shipment. I have two words for you: 308 PMAG.
Sorry, disagree.
C4
The ones that matter like BCG are proprietary and not readily available in retail. To take the KAC upper apart, you need special tooling. 308 PMAGs have been questionable in KAC, no? And don't drop free from Larue?
Yes, we disagree then.
Many parts in the AR10 are interchangeable. So yes, you can fix many things.
C4
And quite a few see broken parts or otherwise fail to function fairly early. But I'm not sure how this applies to the original question.
bondmid003
12-30-12, 11:45
Is this a discussion on the versatility of the SCAR 17 or the AR10. I'm losing track
Is this a discussion on the versatility of the SCAR 17 or the AR10. I'm losing track
It has turned into a comparison of the 2 platforms. Good discussion indeed.
At least for the short term its good to be an American and have these choices.
I do beleive since the introduction of the SCAR companies like Knights and Larue have stepped up and made better AR10s. Competition is a good thing.
If you want a lighter, handier and argueably more reliable .308 then get the SCAR. If you want a more precison weapon that you are probably more familiar with ( due to being an AR ) get a AR10 of your flavor.
If would prefer to lose some accuracy to get a lighter AR10 find a lighter barreled profile for your AR10 or if you want a tighter shooting SCAR talk FN into building a MK 20 with a 16'' barrel.
I'll go on a limb here, and say that I belive that Jeff Cooper was wrong about nearly everything he said.
I like his color codes for states of awareness, white, yellow, orange and red.
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 14:57
I like his color codes for states of awareness, white, yellow, orange and red.
I was under the impression that he learned that from the military?
(If he didn't, and in fact made them up, then I'll credit him, because those are good "conditions" to measure by.)
The ones that matter like BCG are proprietary and not readily available in retail. To take the KAC upper apart, you need special tooling. 308 PMAGs have been questionable in KAC, no? And don't drop free from Larue?
Yes, we disagree then.
Bolts are wear items and I am sure KAC bolts break, but I have never seen one break. This might be because of their design (don't know).
You can take apart a KAC rifle with ease. The only part that you need a special tool for is the URX (which they sell). I also own a wrench as do other KAC dealers so there are resources out there.
I have not seen any issues with 308 PMAG's in any gun (Colt, KAC, etc). With anything though, there are no absolutes and I am sure there is a gun or two that doesn't like them.
Dropping free for a polymer mag can be a problem (tolerance stacking). Some light sanding (of the mag) usually fixes this problem.
C4
Alaskapopo
12-30-12, 17:19
Cooper did a lot for the shooting world. For his time he was an innovator who took us forward a great deal. However like many men he stagnated and started to lose his relevance. I see this with instructors even today. They get out of the military and at first their great and teach good things but then they fail to keep an open mind and keep up with technology and then they too become not relevant.
Pat
I was under the impression that he learned that from the military?
(If he didn't, and in fact made them up, then I'll credit him, because those are good "conditions" to measure by.)
Could be. I learned it from reading one if his books years ago.
I had to restrain myself from chewing you out. If you knew F2S, you wouldn't have said the things you did.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion
Whatever man. I'm sure that F2S is and great guy and that I perhaps mischaracterized him (which I apologized for), but if you cannot understand how someone could reasonably and justifiably perceive an apparent conflict of interest when a KAC employee jumps into a thread about the SCAR and expresses a negative point of view about the product, and in particular, implying that the cost delta between the KAC and FN product is in some way representative of the alleged superior performance of the KAC product, you're either kidding yourself or your blind.
I will apologize for my misinterpreting the intentions of the information being communicated, but I will not apologize for calling out perceived breaches in the technical integrity and credibility of this site. I come to this site because I believe that as a community M4C has a membership that cares about such things (including the industry professionals).
ETA, thanks for the link, that's some good info therein.
sinlessorrow
12-30-12, 18:13
Whatever man. I'm sure that F2S is and great guy and that I perhaps mischaracterized him (which I apologized for), but if you cannot understand how someone could reasonably and justifiably perceive an apparent conflict of interest when a KAC employee jumps into a thread about the SCAR and expresses a negative point of view about the product, and in particular, implying that the cost delta between the KAC and FN product is in some way representative of the alleged superior performance of the KAC product, you're either kidding yourself or your blind.
I will apologize for my misinterpreting the intentions of the information being communicated, but I will not apologize for calling out perceived breaches in the technical integrity and credibility of this site. I come to this site because I believe that as a community M4C has a membership that cares about such things (including the industry professionals).
ETA, thanks for the link, that's some good info therein.
F2S has only recently begun working for KAC, he has been a mod here for a long long time.
TriviaMonster
12-30-12, 18:36
Whatever man. I'm sure that F2S is and great guy and that I perhaps mischaracterized him (which I apologized for), but if you cannot understand how someone could reasonably and justifiably perceive an apparent conflict of interest when a KAC employee jumps into a thread about the SCAR and expresses a negative point of view about the product, and in particular, implying how the cost delta is in some way representative of the superior performance of his company's product, you're either kidding yourself or your blind.
I will apologize for my misinterpreting the intentions of the information being communicated, but I will not apologize for calling out perceived breaches in technical integrity and credibility. I come to this site because I believe that as a community M4C has a membership that cares about such things (including the industry professionals).
I understand where you are coming from. No big deal. For the record though, F2S is an SME first and a KAC employee second. The man knows his stuff, even if he frequently runs stop signs.
And regarding Cooper, he had some good ideas, but like Pat said, he failed to adapt and we moved on. Not a huge deal as some of his stuff is still relevant, but other things like pushing .45 cal. as the only way to go is a bit dated. And Col. Cooper may have been an SME, but he was no SMJ (Subject Matter Jesus).
Littlelebowski
12-30-12, 18:43
Whatever man. I'm sure that F2S is and great guy and that I perhaps mischaracterized him (which I apologized for), but if you cannot understand how someone could reasonably and justifiably perceive an apparent conflict of interest when a KAC employee jumps into a thread about the SCAR and expresses a negative point of view about the product, and in particular, implying that the cost delta between the KAC and FN product is in some way representative of the alleged superior performance of the KAC product, you're either kidding yourself or your blind.
I will apologize for my misinterpreting the intentions of the information being communicated, but I will not apologize for calling out perceived breaches in the technical integrity and credibility of this site. I come to this site because I believe that as a community M4C has a membership that cares about such things (including the industry professionals).
ETA, thanks for the link, that's some good info therein.
I would caution you not to be so quick on the trigger regarding "calling out" folks on here and I admit I used to be the same way myself. Those NDAs really do exist and folks are legally bound by them even when they were military testers like F2S and the guy at the link I posted.
Regarding parts durability in 7.62x51mm weapons, is the SCAR better in this regard than the "classic" battle rifles (M14,G3,FN FAL)?
OP, I see you live in Virginia, were you planning at all to hunt with the platform you are considering? If so, be advised any rifle used for deer or Bear in Virginia must be .23 caliber or larger.
I was asked to speak before the State legislature later this year as an SME to try and get this reversed, but as for now....223 / 5.56 in illegal for deer and bear.
The Va Game and Inland Fishery guide is below, look halfway down the page under "Legal Use of Firearms and Archery Equipment" for further reference.
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general.asp
I like the SCAR platform, not a secret. If you want to get your hands on one, shoot me a PM. If we are close, I can assist.
Failure2Stop
01-01-13, 09:08
Regarding parts durability in 7.62x51mm weapons, is the SCAR better in this regard than the "classic" battle rifles (M14,G3,FN FAL)?
Yes.
It wasn't until 2002 until we really found out how much we could shoot 5.56 guns. We had never, as a whole, really shot individual weapons all that much previously, from pistols to rifles, and only recently have we ressurected/reheated the concept of the "battle rifle"/"heavy carbine". While I would not say that a legacy 7.62 gun (FAL/G3/M14/AR10) could not stand up to the firing schedules attainable with contemporary designs (SCAR-H, ECC/EC/EMC, PredatAR/PredatOBR), I will say that if you took a sample of 10 of each, there would be more parts failures with the legacy systems. This is compounded by the issue of parts quality in the older systems; new parts are not the same as the old parts, from quailty to origin.
One of the biggest issues is that ergonomics and optics compatability with the legacy systems are nowhere close to current designs.
OP, I see you live in Virginia, were you planning at all to hunt with the platform you are considering? If so, be advised any rifle used for deer or Bear in Virginia must be .23 caliber or larger.
I was asked to speak before the State legislature later this year as an SME to try and get this reversed, but as for now....223 / 5.56 in illegal for deer and bear.
The Va Game and Inland Fishery guide is below, look halfway down the page under "Legal Use of Firearms and Archery Equipment" for further reference.
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general.asp
I like the SCAR platform, not a secret. If you want to get your hands on one, shoot me a PM. If we are close, I can assist.
PM on it's way.
Hunting is definitely a consideration, and yes I am in Virginia.
I would agree with many on here regarding the utility of 5.56 and I recognize that 7.62 is not a death ray. I had saved so that I was entirely set on picking up a BCM this month (January) when all this crap went down. Since the days of sub-$1200 colts and BCMs appear over, and there are no Noveske/DD rifles to be found either, I am looking at all my options.
It looks like I could order a DSA FAL though I don't know when I would actually get it AND I have heard mixed reviews on recent quality. Also, I'm not sure a legacy rifle would serve me best, which led me to the SCAR 17. As mentioned previously, the SCAR seems adequate for close range work, and would excel firing through cover and over longer distances.
Anyway, it looks like my planning and saving has left me high and dry due to these unforseen-by-me circumstances, and as I refuse to be ass-raped by the price gougers I'm coming across, it sounds like this discussion is ending up more academic, really. Incredibly frustrating, though I appreciate the contributions here.
PM on it's way.
Hunting is definitely a consideration, and yes I am in Virginia.
I would agree with many on here regarding the utility of 5.56 and I recognize that 7.62 is not a death ray. I had saved so that I was entirely set on picking up a BCM this month (January) when all this crap went down. Since the days of sub-$1200 colts and BCMs appear over, and there are no Noveske/DD rifles to be found either, I am looking at all my options.
It looks like I could order a DSA FAL though I don't know when I would actually get it AND I have heard mixed reviews on recent quality. Also, I'm not sure a legacy rifle would serve me best, which led me to the SCAR 17. As mentioned previously, the SCAR seems adequate for close range work, and would excel firing through cover and over longer distances.
Anyway, it looks like my planning and saving has left me high and dry due to these unforseen-by-me circumstances, and as I refuse to be ass-raped by the price gougers I'm coming across, it sounds like this discussion is ending up more academic, really. Incredibly frustrating, though I appreciate the contributions here.
Every time I shoot my DSA 16.25" para, I question why I keep searching for something better. As a youngster I grew up on the HK rifle until after a long weekend of shooting I tried my buddies AR15. That was it. Ever since then I've been searching for a 7.62 that was ergonomically equivalent to the AR. Still have a bunch of 7.62s, including the SCAR 17s, but that FAL keeps reeling me in. I'm sure that the SCAR will grow on me, but if you can get a 16.25"-18" DSA, you may wanna go for it. The DSA railed top cover really adds to the the rifle. I can't comment on late production DSA guns, mine is over ten years and many thousands of rounds old! I'd love to get a KAC ECC, but I realize that that posssibility may be over taken by events for the forseeable future.
One of the biggest issues is that ergonomics and optics compatability with the legacy systems are nowhere close to current designs.
Truer words have never been spoken... It is so refreshing to see the 7.62 rifle updated. Since I'm a desk jocky/part time couch-commando, I don't actually have to hump anything. Thus I prefer 7.62 and .45 ACP.
Regarding parts durability in 7.62x51mm weapons, is the SCAR better in this regard than the "classic" battle rifles (M14,G3,FN FAL)?
I have heard through the grapevine that Mk17 bolts average 8-10,000 rounds. This came from a source, whom I will not name, but is very valid. Where as the Mk16 bolt is significately more substantial around the lugs than the M4, the SR25 seems more beefed up than the Mk17. Still, that is more than the average M4 bolt life span.
I would say the Mk17 is a superior option for a battle rifle over legacy systems, for the reasons F2S mentioned.Will you see them in 40-50 years in every crap whole country in the world the way you do FALs & G3s today? Not as of now because they are no where near the numbers of SCARs or SR25s produced to trickle down that far, but most likely they will still be running where ever they are.
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