View Full Version : Boy, 7, shot to death outside Pa. gun store
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-12, 21:04
Just wow . . .
MERCER, Pa. — A man's handgun went off while he was holding it as he got into his truck in the parking lot of a western Pennsylvania gun store Saturday, and the shot killed his 7-year-old son, authorities said.
No he put his God damn finger on the f**king trigger!
http://news.yahoo.com/police-boy-7-shot-death-pa-gun-store-200049283.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/08/boy-shot-to-death-pa-gun-store/1755809/#
The thing that pisses off the most about this isn't the Fudd, isn't his lack of weapon safety protocol, and isn't how absurd this entire event is. The most frustrating part is the overwhelming sense of growing momentum courtesy of the media to push every gun-related death into the headlines recently. It's clear they are trying to build enough momentum to force political action about guns, whether an AWB or worse. Having to go through this run up to it is truly insufferable and one of the most obnoxious experiences ever. And yet, here we are. And idiots like this certainly don't help things.
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-12, 21:28
The thing that pisses off the most about this isn't the Fudd, isn't his lack of weapon safety protocol, and isn't how absurd this entire event is. The most frustrating part is the overwhelming sense of growing momentum courtesy of the media to push every gun-related death into the headlines recently. It's clear they are trying to build enough momentum to force political action a bout guns, whether an AWB or worse. Having to go through this run up to it is truly insufferable and one of the most obnoxious experiences ever. And yet, here we are. And idiots like this certainly don't help things.
I understand what you’re saying and agree with you on the media sensationalism of gun related stories. I did NOT post this as “Another, another, another kid killed by a stupid SOB” thread.
Even here on M4C, we can never stress enough the fundamentals when it comes to safe firearm handling. We all know this is a software issue and not a hardware issue.
Oh yeah, totally understood. That wasn't intended as a complaint about your post in any way. :)
The thing that pisses off the most about this isn't the Fudd, isn't his lack of weapon safety protocol, and isn't how absurd this entire event is. The most frustrating part is the overwhelming sense of growing momentum courtesy of the media to push every gun-related death into the headlines recently. It's clear they are trying to build enough momentum to force political action a bout guns, whether an AWB or worse. Having to go through this run up to it is truly insufferable and one of the most obnoxious experiences ever. And yet, here we are. And idiots like this certainly don't help things.
Trying? Please, you can be assured, positively assured, that within a relatively short period of time, the illusion thats the 2nd, will be forever shit-canned!
Don't balm yourself on the "its an industry & jobs thing," Obama, and his marxist/leninist political party(yes, the dems are to a man/women, Moscow red)have no concerns about industry, jobs, or constitutional rights. They have clearly demonstrated, an uncanny ability to do whatever the hell they wish too, manufacture any result they please(corruption), with 99% of the population dutifully complying, while asking no questions as to the how, or why, it got done to them!
I have no difficulty weather-casting the immediate future, it includes a 70% chance, of a use it, or lose it forecast...As to the OP, yeah well he broke the rules, tragically, I think the instant loss of his son, supercedes any recriminations I have to offer...
What the hell do you think the media should do? Burry it? A man killed his own 7-year old son with poor training and negligence. That's a legitimate news story, and I did not see either article push an anti-2nd Amendment agenda.
Now, I hope he gets to pay the price with a stiff prison sentence. Don't give me that crap that his sorrow is enough punishment. With great rights come great responsibility. Screw it up and pay the piper.
Now, I hope he gets to pay the price with a stiff prison sentence. Don't give me that crap that his sorrow is enough punishment. With great rights come great responsibility. Screw it up and pay the piper.
I don't! Thats absolutism, which is something that I am not! The man just lost his child, and here you are, wishing to hurt him even more. It was an accident, negligent yes, but an accident. He lost his little boy forever, I think he has paid well beyond your(our)ability to hurt him further. Penalizing this poor wretch further at this point is going to serve what lofty purpose, exactly?
It serves nothing to send him to prison. It's just the knee jerk reaction we get now when a kid is negligently killed with a firearm. Had the father dropped a hammer on the kids head from the top of a ladder (just as stupid) would anyone be calling to see him sent to prison?
I don't! Thats absolutism, which is something that I am not! The man just lost his child, and here you are, wishing to hurt him even more. It was an accident, negligent yes, but an accident. He lost his little boy forever, I think he has paid well beyond your(our)ability to hurt him further. Penalizing this poor wretch further at this point is going to serve what lofty purpose, exactly?
It is NOT an accident - it was a NEGLIGENT discharge. This has been and will be the standard of this forum whenever a gun goes boom in any unintended manner. The fact that he killed his son does not change the standard. Negligence carries legal ramifications in almost every field including our right to bear arms. For example, it's an automatic Field Grade Article 15 for any negligent discharge at a clearing station at some FOBs in A-Stan that I've visited - even when nobody was hurt.
Now, there is another victim in this matter. That victim is the State of PA. The way I see it, that victim has a very good case for involuntary manslaughter.
Really hard to understand how this happened. The father carried an uncased handgun and rifle into a gun store to sell them? I bet that got the counter person's attention.
Then he his putting the handgun into the center console and somehow has his finger on the trigger AND is pointing it at his son (presumably crosswise to the console)?! All the while assuming it is unloaded.
How is this numbnuts fit to drive a car let alone handle a firearm? If he had followed just ONE of the firearm safety rules this would not have ended tragically.
It serves nothing to send him to prison. It's just the knee jerk reaction we get now when a kid is negligently killed with a firearm. Had the father dropped a hammer on the kids head from the top of a ladder (just as stupid) would anyone be calling to see him sent to prison?
Would you feel different had the bullet that he negligently discharged killed your kid?
BTW, your analogy is a little strained. I'd say that the number of homes with ladders and children actually exceeds the number of homes with children and firearms. Yet, for some reason there are a lot more accidental deaths due to parents shooting their kids as opposed to dropping ladders on their heads. Now, I wonder why that is...humm...
Really hard to understand how this happened. The father carried an uncased handgun and rifle into a gun store to sell them? I bet that got the counter person's attention.
Then he his putting the handgun into the center console and somehow has his finger on the trigger AND is pointing it at his son (presumably crosswise to the console)?! All the while assuming it is unloaded.
How is this numbnuts fit to drive a car let alone handle a firearm? If he had followed just ONE of the firearm safety rules this would not have ended tragically.
Yet, he should be free to move about society and buy more firearms according to some on this board.
A felony conviction serves the purpose of making sure that this dipshit never owns another gun.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-08-12, 23:03
might as well turn it on your self at that point
might as well turn it on your self at that point
Best post of the thread.
It is NOT an accident - it was a NEGLIGENT discharge. This has been and will be the standard of this forum whenever a gun goes boom in any unintended manner. The fact that he killed his son does not change the standard. Negligence carries legal ramifications in almost every field including our right to bear arms. For example, it's an automatic Field Grade Article 15 for any negligent discharge at a clearing station at some FOBs in A-Stan that I've visited - even when nobody was hurt.
Now, there is another victim in this matter. That victim is the State of PA. The way I see it, that victim has a very good case for involuntary manslaughter.
It carries the legal ramifications its does, almost exclusively due to the totalitarian influences, and machinations of the marxist political party. Negligence aside, it was an accident, it serves no purpose whatsoever at this point other than the interests of the state, to inflict terror upon the public via the making of an example. Thats tyrranical, and extrordinarily cruel.
You talk as though this man is a perp, well he's not, he's a father who made a terrible mistake, and he very clearly has paid for it in the most horrifying of ways...Its no different then sending him to prison for backing over his child in the drive way, just as negligent, just as accidental...
Pending some compelling new issues, this poor man should be let be...
Really hard to understand how this happened. The father carried an uncased handgun and rifle into a gun store to sell them? I bet that got the counter person's attention.
Then he his putting the handgun into the center console and somehow has his finger on the trigger AND is pointing it at his son (presumably crosswise to the console)?! All the while assuming it is unloaded.
What's missing is the part between his (if I'm reading this right) taking it into the store to sell it and coming back out with it, between which time apparently no one actually safety checked it? :confused:
Jesus Christ.
For my Christmas wish I want to take all the "this is gonna get guns banned" and "this guy was not justified in shooting this attacker" and "this guy is a dickhead because of his gun/holster choice" and all the other shit that people regurgitate over and over on the internet and take all that effort and INSTEAD focus it on the four basic rules of gun safety so that EVERY Tom, Dickhead and Harry knows the rules and stands ready to jump all over anyone who "isn't being safe" as fast as he would if he saw a AK sporter that possibly wasn't 922r compliant.
There is simply NO REASON for anyone who lawfully owns a gun whether they be a hunter, target shooter, competitor or armed for personal defense to not KNOW and OBSERVE those four basic and simple rules.
If this guy had simply followed FOUR SIMPLE RULES he wouldn't have unintentionally shot his own kid.
GeorgiaBoy
12-08-12, 23:46
Is prison supposed to be were we hold those who are considered social deviants and/or dangerous for some reason in order to keep them out of society and from hurting themselves or others, or is it a place to implement "punishment" for a deviance?
First and foremost, a prison/jail/correctional facility is to keep someone who has committed a deviant act out the rest of society. It keeps them from hurting others or from repeating the deviant act.
This guy, who shot his son, is not a social deviant. He is not dangerous. He made a mistake, an accident, committed a negligent act. The result is he lost is seven year old son. What would taking him out of society and putting him in "time out" do for him? Absolutely nothing. It's just pouring salt on a wound. He's already going to suffer enough from grief, remorse, and and sorrow.
What's missing is the part between his (if I'm reading this right) taking it into the store to sell it and coming back out with it, between which time apparently no one actually safety checked it? :confused:
It wounds like they turned him away without looking at his guns.
Jesus Christ.
For my Christmas wish I want to take all the "this is gonna get guns banned" and "this guy was not justified in shooting this attacker" and "this guy is a dickhead because of his gun/holster choice" and all the other shit that people regurgitate over and over on the internet and take all that effort and INSTEAD focus it on the four basic rules of gun safety so that EVERY Tom, Dickhead and Harry knows the rules and stands ready to jump all over anyone who "isn't being safe" as fast as he would if he saw a AK sporter that possibly wasn't 922r compliant.
There is simply NO REASON for anyone who lawfully owns a gun whether they be a hunter, target shooter, competitor or armed for personal defense to not KNOW and OBSERVE those four basic and simple rules.
If this guy had simply followed FOUR SIMPLE RULES he wouldn't have unintentionally shot his own kid.
Why do you expect people to learn rules when a sizable portion of the gun carrying public as represented on this thread want to remove the consequences of disobedience?
It's really a very simple equation for human behavior: a) allow every moron with a pulse to own a weapon + b) never mandate any training for this weapon + c) absolution of sins that arise from a and b = tragedies such as this.
Christ, how do you guys train your dog?
This guy, who shot his son, is not a social deviant. He is not dangerous. He made a mistake, an accident, committed a negligent act. The result is he lost is seven year old son. What would taking him out of society and putting him in "time out" do for him? Absolutely nothing. It's just pouring salt on a wound. He's already going to suffer enough from grief, remorse, and and sorrow.
Perhaps it will make the next guy think about four simple rules.
What if it was a careless welfare parent who didn't take the time to look and drove over their own child and killed it? What about stupid thoughtless Moms who leave babies in the car and they die while they are shopping?
Do you extend to them the same "only an accident" courtesy? Or are the actions "criminally negligent"?
Why do you expect people to learn rules when a sizable portion of the gun carrying public as represented on this thread want to remove the consequences of disobedience?
It's really a very simple equation for human behavior: a) allow every moron with a pulse to own a weapon + b) never mandate any training for this weapon + c) absolution of sins that arise from a and b = tragedies such as this.
Christ, how do you guys train your dog?
I don't EXPECT anything. I WISH that all the silly crap we mostly worry about on the internet was instead directed towards that goal.
Seems everyone with a gun I talk to has a "researched opinion" on their choice of 9mm vs. .45, I'm just wondering why the same dipshits can't put the same effort into four simple rules.
Is prison supposed to be were we hold those who are considered social deviants and/or dangerous for some reason in order to keep them out of society and from hurting themselves or others, or is it a place to implement "punishment" for a deviance?
Actually, it is 50:50 protection of society and punishment. However, I'm not in the least bit surprised that you would not acknowledge the punishment aspect.
As for this guy "not being dangerous," a dead 7-year old might disagree with you...
Reagans Rascals
12-08-12, 23:59
is it just me... or has there not been a sign that states all firearms entering the premises are to be unloaded and cased... in practically every gun store on the planet... to prevent this exact scenario...
at least there has been in every single gun store/range I've ever been to in my life...
thus... had he followed those simple rules... that were more than likely posted... his weapon would not have been loaded in the first place..
GeorgiaBoy
12-09-12, 00:14
However, I'm not in the least bit surprised that you would not acknowledge the punishment aspect.
Ok. :rolleyes:
Really hard to understand how this happened. The father carried an uncased handgun and rifle into a gun store to sell them? I bet that got the counter person's attention.
Then he his putting the handgun into the center console and somehow has his finger on the trigger AND is pointing it at his son (presumably crosswise to the console)?! All the while assuming it is unloaded.
How is this numbnuts fit to drive a car let alone handle a firearm? If he had followed just ONE of the firearm safety rules this would not have ended tragically.
Kinda what I think why was it even pointed at him ?
So he brought a loaded handgun to sell into the store ?
So at his home knowing he was going to sell it never cleaned and checked it ?
Never double checked it before he was going to sell it !
When I used to buy and sell guns a lot they always went into the store in a gun case never open carried them ever !
And no way would I give a loaded gun to a guy behind the counter ! YIKES
Pointed it at his son when getting in and had his finger on the trigger
Man so so so so sad for the little kid and family
Part of me wonders if the guy joked around and pointed it at his kid thinking it was unloaded and pulled the trigger ?
While beyond stupid what he did was beyond stupid ! And I have heard of idiots doing that before as a joke pointing so called unloaded guns at friends or handling loaded guns and they go off
JBecker 72
12-09-12, 00:21
Tragic and completely avoidable. RIP little man. :(
Ok. :rolleyes:
We've discussed your admittedly liberal social tendencies, so don't get offended.
BTW, how was that Bama game last week...Eh?
GeorgiaBoy
12-09-12, 00:34
We've discussed your admittedly liberal social tendencies, so don't get offended.
Doesn't mean you should always bring them up in a critical manner. I don't critique your obvious conservative ideology.
BTW, how was that Bama game last week...Eh?
Meh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Pq7YVZwwI
If someone gets in a car wreck by their own negligence do they get a pass if they kill someone in the car they were driving ?
Obviously the guy has no clue where he points his weapon
So lets imagine you were in the parking lot and he shot your child by accident !
Which honestly could have easily happened with what the article said anyone who points a loaded gun at their own child is dangerous to others IMHO
Would those who feel killing his kid is punishment enough just say hey its OK you shot my kid it was a accident ! That punishment enough to live with !
I can not imagine shooting my own kid ! I could not live with myself
So not saying he is not suffering but does not change facts he was negligent
If he is so stupid to accidentaly shoot his kid he might be a danger to others especially in such a distraught state !
I get where some are coming from.
If this is any kind of decent guy there is NOTHING we can do to him that he isn't already doing to himself. But that works both ways, if he truly is that remorseful it won't matter what happens to him, like somebody else mention some would turn the gun on themselves at that point.
That said, it's not something were you just say "oops" and "he's been punished enough" because there are plenty of dipshits out there who cause exactly this sort of tragedy because they are careless ****tards.
When some stupid bitch leaves her baby in the car at the shopping mall and the baby dies, without exception she is always shown on the news crying her eyes out and extremely remorseful and people line up by the dozens to suggest she should get a pass and that she has been punished enough.
I happen to disagree.
If you have a baby, there is no ACCEPTABLE excuse to forgetting your baby has been left in the car. If you cannot do that one thing then DO NOT have a baby.
By the same token, I'm pretty forgiving and accept that not everyone is a highly trained Delta operator when it comes to guns and I don't feel anyone needs specialized training to own a gun. I would prefer that everyone be instructed and practice to become a safe shooter but I don't want it to be a requirement.
That said, I think EVERYONE who owns a gun needs to KNOW and ABIDE BY the four basic rules. And if you cannot do that then DO NOT own a gun.
1. There is NO REASON to treat a firearm as if it were not loaded.
2. There is NO REASON to point a firearm at anything you are not willing to shoot.
3. There is NO REASON to put your finger on the trigger if you don't intend to pull the trigger.
4. There is NO REASON to pull the trigger if you are unsure of your target or what is behind it.
Incredibly the guy in the OP managed to violate ALL FOUR of the basic rules of gun safety and as a result he shot and killed his own son.
I feel really, really bad for the guy. I strongly suspect he has destroyed his life and he knows it. I strongly suspect he would give anything to go back and change things. I strongly suspect there isn't much that could be done to him that will punish him more than his own actions and having to live with them.
But at the same time you just DON'T forget you left your baby in the car and you just DON'T point your loaded gun at your son and put your finger on the trigger.
It sucks that this boy had to die because his dad was a complete ****ing idiot. Sometimes when Darwin takes control other innocents get hurt.
For those who think he should get a free pass I have a few questions.
What if it was someone you knew? Or someone not related to him? Would you not be screaming for vengeance?
What is the just punishment for killing his son? Should he lose the right to own a firearm because of his negligence?
Should there be any repercussions or should we just chalk it up to "oh well shit happens"?
Moose-Knuckle
12-09-12, 03:01
is it just me... or has there not been a sign that states all firearms entering the premises are to be unloaded and cased... in practically every gun store on the planet... to prevent this exact scenario...
at least there has been in every single gun store/range I've ever been to in my life...
thus... had he followed those simple rules... that were more than likely posted... his weapon would not have been loaded in the first place..
Yup.
Something tells me this guy ejected the mag from the handgun and believed it to be unloaded at that point thus taking into the store and the subsequent negligent discharged ensued. We don’t have enough details as to verify whether or not the gun was checked by the store staff once inside.
My father and I went to a gun store/range one day for a couple of hours of shooting. When we pulled up in the parking lot I mentioned to him that I needed to unload my CCW before we entered the store as I was going to shoot it on the range and it needed to be checked in by the staff. As he sat in the driver seat he said he was good to go and I asked him if he had verified that his gun was in fact unloaded as the staff would have to check it in. He told me that he had not but he knew it was unloaded. At which point he took the gun out of it's case with it's muzzle pointed at the floor board, finger off the trigger, and worked the slide rearward. Much to his surprise a bright shiny brass cased round ejected from the gun. His eyes got as big as dinner plates and I knew that really gave him a scare as he looked over my way. I smiled at him and said, "well dad it's like you always told me, there's no such thing as an unloaded gun".
If this kid’s dad had observed the four golden rules of firearm’s handling he would still be alive.
I find myself in agreement with Sensei. If every fatal firearms "accident" was prosecuted as manslaughter, how fast would all the idiots man the **** up and learn to be safe?
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-09-12, 06:16
It sucks that this boy had to die because his dad was a complete ****ing idiot. Sometimes when Darwin takes control other innocents get hurt.
For those who think he should get a free pass I have a few questions.
What if it was someone you knew? Or someone not related to him? Would you not be screaming for vengeance?
What is the just punishment for killing his son? Should he lose the right to own a firearm because of his negligence?
Should there be any repercussions or should we just chalk it up to "oh well shit happens"?
I like these questions, I find myself trying to put myself in those shoes. I don't think I would want to live, or ever touch a gun again. This is not like war or self defense, how would you wife treat you, your family. Its over for this guy already, the law should be the least of his worries:suicide::suicide::suicide:
What if it was a careless welfare parent who didn't take the time to look and drove over their own child and killed it? What about stupid thoughtless Moms who leave babies in the car and they die while they are shopping?
This is what I was thinking also. Seems to me I read about them getting charged.
Primarily because I have a now 9 year old I only chamber a round before bed and then clear in as soon as I wake the morning. It's also a big reason as to why I don't use a hammerless weapon for home defense.
Not because I would ever be as careless as that man, but because it eliminates the potential for any number of mistakes. Living in NJ I can't carry in public, so there's no protocol for me to follow in that regard for now. But even if I did tomorrow and I decided to keep a round chambered at all times I would stay with the Beretta 90-Two. This because having not been able to carry publically the past 43 years I be very complacent with the double action and of course the gun has never failed in any way so far.
As far as his punishment, I think it's rather complicated. However that's probably because if I did that then I would throw myself in front of a train or off the nearest bridge as soon as possible in hopes of catching up to my son.
HackerF15E
12-09-12, 10:06
Now, I hope he gets to pay the price with a stiff prison sentence. Don't give me that crap that his sorrow is enough punishment. With great rights come great responsibility. Screw it up and pay the piper.
Are you a parent?
Are you a parent?
Yes, I am.
Are you a parent?
again if he killed your kid would you pat him on the back give him a hug saying its OK you suffered enough
again if he killed your kid would you pat him on the back give him a hug saying its OK you suffered enough
No, but that is far a different circumstance for obvious reasons.
No, but that is far a different circumstance for obvious reasons.
Not in the eyes of the state that is also a victim in this case.
It sucks that this boy had to die because his dad was a complete ****ing idiot. Sometimes when Darwin takes control other innocents get hurt.
For those who think he should get a free pass I have a few questions.
What if it was someone you knew? Or someone not related to him? Would you not be screaming for vengeance?
What is the just punishment for killing his son? Should he lose the right to own a firearm because of his negligence?
Should there be any repercussions or should we just chalk it up to "oh well shit happens"?
Unless some new criminality is revealed, he has already paid for his negligence. Let's be honest here, you're not looking for justice, you're looking for something that doesn't exist in human beings, at any level, perfection!
In the military, we have no choice but to embrace the absolutes being highlighted here, the idea being predicated upon the belief that regimented repetition will instill an almost machine like predictability, and largely speaking, that works well in that environment.
Unfortunately this concept does not translate well to free society, further, the percentage of citizens with military training, and experience is very small. People, such as this father, are occupied with other pursuits, and they are not dedicated to the trigger, or weapon discilpine that more advanced, practiced, and experienced professional men & women have inculcated through rigorous training.
Its literally impossible to take issue with you for concluding as you have, because its true, he was an idiot, and his son has paid with his life for his lapse in judgement. Nonetheless, "shit does happen," this being "greater society" at large, not the hard tack regimentation associated with the military, he should be dealt with as compassionately as the rest of his life may suggest....
So a better question may be what if it had been you? Mr Murphy hitches a ride with everyone, awaiting his opportunity...
Not in the eyes of the state that is also a victim in this case.
Surely you know that I'm not in the least implying that the father is the primary victim as opposed to the son. The father is now a permanently ruined secondary victim by default, but certainly not the person who suffered and lost the most as a result of his extreme recklessness. And the wife isn't likely to be far behind either of them.
GeorgiaBoy
12-09-12, 18:13
Perhaps it will make the next guy think about four simple rules.
Imprisonment doesn;t deter murders, robbery, drug use, or any other deviant act. The fear of punishment isn't always a deterrent. Of course, this guy isn't a criminal. He made a careless mistake, not an intentional one.
What if it was a careless welfare parent who didn't take the time to look and drove over their own child and killed it? What about stupid thoughtless Moms who leave babies in the car and they die while they are shopping?
Do you extend to them the same "only an accident" courtesy? Or are the actions "criminally negligent"?
I wouldn't compare this situation with the situation of a "welfare parent" (as if welfare parents are the only ones that leave children in cars). Of course, whether or not someone is imprisoned for negligently killing a child should be up to individual situations, and past history of parenting.
No, but that is far a different circumstance for obvious reasons.
tell me how is it different in your eyes ?
does shooting your own kid make it less negligent then ?
only cause it was his own child
what if you were parked next to the guy with your kid going in and the gun went off his kid was not there so the round went into your kid IMHO that could have just as easily happened
then what if you were with him and he shot you dead ? what should your spouse do pat him on the back say its OK you suffered enough
again yes its his own kid but that does not take away negligence
because it could have been anyone !
if a guy drives drunk kills his family he suffered enough even though he made stupid decisions and did no harm to others around him ?
if a guy kills his kid cause of negligence speeding misses a turn should they say OK you suffered enough ?
Do any of you believe that he should ever be allowed to own another gun? I don't, and I know of only one way of making sure that it never happens. I'm all ears for additional suggestions.
Also, I know that it is popular belief around here that anyone and everyone should be able to own and/or carry a gun. Well, here is the downside of that belief - morons who are unable or refuse to follow the most basic principles will get other people killed. The best way to check that downside is to deter morons from owning guns with stiff penalties for negligent deaths. That means that we fully enforce existing laws for manslaughter and negligent homicide. Expect to go to prison if you negligently kill anyone with a gun, or leave a gun unsecure for a child to harm themselves. Otherwise, we create a special class of citizen who is immune from prosecution when they happen to kill a family member with a gun.
CarlosDJackal
12-09-12, 19:27
I just have to ask:
(1) Why did he have his handgun in his hands?
(2) Why did he have it pointed at his son?
(3) Why was his trigger finger in the trigger guard?
As far as punishment, I think he has been punished in the worst possible way.
Cagemonkey
12-09-12, 19:28
might as well turn it on your self at that pointI agree. In all seriousness, how can you live with yourself after such a tragedy.
Do any of you believe that he should ever be allowed to own another gun?
I know a well respected psychologist who hit and killed a 12-year old boy in his Toyota Prius, stone cold sober! Should he be sent to prison, and refused an automobile for the duration of his life?
Barring some criminality being revealed, he should have the same rights as any other free citizen...
It wouldn't "be me" because I don't play around with firearms and especially not in the presence of my family. Everyone in my house is trained and knows not to play around with weapons either.
Unless some new criminality is revealed, he has already paid for his negligence. Let's be honest here, you're not looking for justice, you're looking for something that doesn't exist in human beings, at any level, perfection!
In the military, we have no choice but to embrace the absolutes being highlighted here, the idea being predicated upon the belief that regimented repetition will instill an almost machine like predictability, and largely speaking, that works well in that environment.
Unfortunately this concept does not translate well to free society, further, the percentage of citizens with military training, and experience is very small. People, such as this father, are occupied with other pursuits, and they are not dedicated to the trigger, or weapon discilpine that more advanced, practiced, and experienced professional men & women have inculcated through rigorous training.
Its literally impossible to take issue with you for concluding as you have, because its true, he was an idiot, and his son has paid with his life for his lapse in judgement. Nonetheless, "shit does happen," this being "greater society" at large, not the hard tack regimentation associated with the military, he should be dealt with as compassionately as the rest of his life may suggest....
So a better question may be what if it had been you? Mr Murphy hitches a ride with everyone, awaiting his opportunity...
That is called an accident and unless there was some level of negligence involved then I would say know.
Somehow equating some jack ass with a loaded gun violating all established safety rules and then shooting his son is not even in the same chapter.
I know a well respected psychologist who hit and killed a 12-year old boy in his Toyota Prius, stone cold sober! Should he be sent to prison, and refused an automobile for the duration of his life?
Barring some criminality being revealed, he should have the same rights as any other free citizen...
It wouldn't "be me" because I don't play around with firearms and especially not in the presence of my family. Everyone in my house is trained and knows not to play around with weapons either.
The father wasn't playing around with it, he handled it improperly on two critical levels. Not trying to be a dick but there is a difference.
Edit: Posting from a mobile phone can make you look like an idiot grammar wise. Think I've learned my lesson now.
This is the kind of thread where I really miss AC...he always seemed to be able to inject knowledge and wisdom with the proper balance of compassion & toughness.
I simply cannot fathom a worse self imposed lifetime of pain??
Prayers for that whole family...they will need them!!
That is called an accident and unless there was some level of negligence involved then I would say know.
Somehow equating some jack ass with a loaded gun violating all established safety rules and then shooting his son is not even in the same chapter.
Both were accidents, both involved negligence! There is absolutely no difference between the auto and the firearm, US criminal courts have affirmed that many times, both are dangerous mechanisms, both are routinely mishandled contrary to all accepted safety protocul, resulting in many many dead and maimed.
I'm not defending this guy as a hapless victim, he clearly mishandled his firearm, however I am saying that we should be careful to avoid absolutes, humans are not machines, they make mistakes, sometimes the very best of us make them.
It wouldn't "be me" because I don't play around with firearms and especially not in the presence of my family. Everyone in my house is trained and knows not to play around with weapons either.
I fully believe you. There is nothing I can think of that is worse then the completely avoidable "accidental fatality!" Nonetheless, the state has no business criminalizing accidents unless they are "criminal." This guy may be stupid, if he is redundantly so then the state is obliged to step in, but based upon what little evidence we have here, he's not a criminal.
I find it very interesting that this thread is the second time in one week where members have responded to my criticism of stupidity with the notion that average citizens cannot expected to be trained to the level of Larry Vickers. After all, it takes a SME to comprehend basic safety.
Both instances involved people doing something really stupid with a gun. In the first case, the person was able to affect a citizen's arrest with bad tactics and plenty of risk to self and family. However, it must be a win because the good guy used a gun to catch the bad guy.
Then, there is this case where a child was killed. Two very different outcomes, but the response on this board is the same. Thus, it appears that some will overlook stupidity to cheer a favorable outcome, and forgive it when it results in a tragedy. But, only if a gun is involved. I wonder why that is?
I find it very interesting that this thread is the second time in one week where members have responded to my criticism of stupidity with the notion that average citizens cannot expected to be trained to the level of Larry Vickers. After all, it takes a SME to comprehend basic safety.
If this is what you really believe then maybe you need a good night's sleep. Obviously well intentioned but you're sounding a bit robotic and/or negative lately to be honest.
I know a well respected psychologist who hit and killed a 12-year old boy in his Toyota Prius, stone cold sober! Should he be sent to prison, and refused an automobile for the duration of his life?
Barring some criminality being revealed, he should have the same rights as any other free citizen...
not the same thing !!!
shooting someone is pure negligence !!!
to vague a description you gave IMHO to make a judgement
if the kid ran out from between a parked car ? that is flat out pretty impossible to avoid and is a accident !
or was the guy busy texting or not paying attention or on cell phone adjusting his music then yes sent to prison for sure !!!
you do not need to be a top notch spec ops guy !
basic safety is basic safety !
anyone should know you never point a gun at someone !
you never put your finger on the trigger and point it !
you always assume its loaded on top of it !
if you were bringing it in for sure you should have checked it and eve then assume its loaded never point it never put your finger on the trigger etc..
this guy sadly was wrong in so many ways !!!
again you dont need to be LV to know this stuff !!!!
this is like saying you need to be a top notch world class race care driver to avoid a accident !
no just dont play with your cell phone ! pay attention ! etc..
I find it very interesting that this thread is the second time in one week where members have responded to my criticism of stupidity with the notion that average citizens cannot expected to be trained to the level of Larry Vickers. After all, it takes a SME to comprehend basic safety.
Both instances involved people doing something really stupid with a gun. In the first case, the person was able to affect a citizen's arrest with bad tactics and plenty of risk to self and family. However, it must be a win because the good guy used a gun to catch the bad guy.
Then, there is this case where a child was killed. Two very different outcomes, but the response on this board is the same. Thus, it appears that some will overlook stupidity to cheer a favorable outcome, and forgive it when it results in a tragedy. But, only if a gun is involved. I wonder why that is?
If you handle it "improperly" and aren't following the rules then you are "playing" with it as far as I am concerned.
The father wasn't playing around with it, he handled it improperly on two critical levels. Not trying to be a dick but there is a difference.
Edit: Posting from a mobile phone can make you look like an idiot grammar wise. Think I've learned my lesson now.
If you handle it "improperly" and aren't following the rules then you are "playing" with it as far as I am concerned.
Take that smut somewhere else, pervert. :D
Moose-Knuckle
12-10-12, 03:01
is it just me... or has there not been a sign that states all firearms entering the premises are to be unloaded and cased... in practically every gun store on the planet... to prevent this exact scenario...
at least there has been in every single gun store/range I've ever been to in my life...
thus... had he followed those simple rules... that were more than likely posted... his weapon would not have been loaded in the first place..
Something tells me this guy ejected the mag from the handgun and believed it to be unloaded at that point thus taking into the store and the subsequent negligent discharged ensued. We don’t have enough details as to verify whether or not the gun was checked by the store staff once inside.
I called it . . . turns out the guy "unloaded" the handgun by removing the magazine but failed to clear the chamber. Took the handgun along with a rifle into the store to sell when the store owner told him she wasn't interested in buying them. So the store staff never handled the guns. The father returned to his truck with his son and the firearms and the rest is history . . .
Video here:
http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/playlist/980/3862096?cpt=8&title=pittsburgh_web_source_news&wpid=0
I am surprised the thought that maybe this guy did unload his weapon prior to entering the store and as he was coming out and getting into his vehicle decided to reload it and fired off a round. Negligent and irresponsible regardless. I think he should be charged with an applicable felony that would not allow him gun ownership as well as probation/porale which ever fits for a number of years. Wasting state and federal money having him locked up taking a spot for someone who truly deserves to be locked up is pointless. Maybe get some sort of system set up for these kind of firearm negligent incidents that would not allow them to own a firearm for so money years as well as require them to complete extensive training on safety as well on how to handle a firearm prior to them being allowed to own one after the probationary period. And during that period they can not get into any kind of trouble, not even a parking ticket. An idea but probably not feasable.
I am surprised the thought that maybe this guy did unload his weapon prior to entering the store and as he was coming out and getting into his vehicle decided to reload it and fired off a round. Negligent and irresponsible regardless. I think he should be charged with an applicable felony that would not allow him gun ownership as well as probation/porale which ever fits for a number of years. Wasting state and federal money having him locked up taking a spot for someone who truly deserves to be locked up is pointless. Maybe get some sort of system set up for these kind of firearm negligent incidents that would not allow them to own a firearm for so money years as well as require them to complete extensive training on safety as well on how to handle a firearm prior to them being allowed to own one after the probationary period. And during that period they can not get into any kind of trouble, not even a parking ticket. An idea but probably not feasable.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/pa2504.html
§ 2504. Involuntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person.
(b) Grading.-Involuntary manslaughter is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Where the victim is under 12 years of age and is in the care, custody or control of the person who caused the death, involuntary manslaughter is a felony of the second degree.
In PA, a 2nd degree felony buys you: 5-10 years in prison and maximum fine of $25,000.00.
Imprisonment doesn;t deter murders, robbery, drug use, or any other deviant act. The fear of punishment isn't always a deterrent. Of course, this guy isn't a criminal. He made a careless mistake, not an intentional one.
Of course it doesn't deter people from being who they are. But unless you are saying this guy is a habitual ND then prison time can teach you to follow safety rules, not run red lights and a host of other easily correctable bad behavior and deter that behavior in others.
montanadave
12-10-12, 12:27
And sometimes the fickle finger of fate simply selects your sorry ass to serve as an object lesson to others in what not to do.
not the same thing !!!
shooting someone is pure negligence !!!
to vague a description you gave IMHO to make a judgement
if the kid ran out from between a parked car ? that is flat out pretty impossible to avoid and is a accident !
or was the guy busy texting or not paying attention or on cell phone adjusting his music then yes sent to prison for sure !!!
Vague? They were both accidents that resulted in the death of a child, both involved negligence on the part of the operator. We even refer to professional gunslingers as "operators!"
In my estimation, you're being a bit obtuse here, what difference does it make what particular implement that the "operator" was mishandling when the death occurred? Cars kill far more people each year in the USA than do guns, why are negligent gun owners being singled out as somehow "criminally negligent?"
Do you follow now? Its very simple, this guy was negligent, but was he criminally so? If not, the state has no right to intervene punitively, period!
PA PATRIOT
12-10-12, 16:29
I would hope that the District Attorneys office would charge the father with Involuntary Manslaughter and then offer a plea deal of a Felony in the Third Degree conviction with little to no jail time but the father must forfeit the right to forever own firearms.
Stupidity should never be a defense or consideration when a life is negligently taken and just because the father has grief and remorse after the fact does not mean we should forgive the act which caused the tragedy. Is this a accident "No Way" as it has been said that "With great power comes great responsibility" and a firearm has the power to take life so it should be possessed with great responsibility which is in this case Safe handling.
I have always believed that to own a firearm everyone should have to attend a free firearms safety class before being able to purchase a firearm. We do this for hunting in most states and I would suggest it may prevent needless tragedy's like this.
Vague? They were both accidents that resulted in the death of a child, both involved negligence on the part of the operator. We even refer to professional gunslingers as "operators!"
In my estimation, you're being a bit obtuse here, what difference does it make what particular implement that the "operator" was mishandling when the death occurred? Cars kill far more people each year in the USA than do guns, why are negligent gun owners being singled out as somehow "criminally negligent?"
Do you follow now? Its very simple, this guy was negligent, but was he criminally so? If not, the state has no right to intervene punitively, period!
Gun owners are not being singled out. People are charged with invol manslaughter or its equivalent all the time for vehicle related deaths. A great example is a distracted driver or a truck driver who tries to drive 24-hours and falls asleep at the wheel. There are also firearms related deaths that do not warrant felony convictions. For example, a freak ricochet, or the case where a guy's friend put on a ski mask and tried to scare him (bad idea) are both cases of accidental death by firearms that should not be charged. It all depends on the person operating the car or weapon in a negligent manner, and failure to follow the basic principles of safety, or leaving a weapon unsecured defines firearm negligence.
I would hope that the District Attorneys office would charge the father with Involuntary Manslaughter and then offer a plea deal of a Felony in the Third Degree conviction with little to no jail time but the father must forfeit the right to forever own firearms.
Stupidity should never be a defense or consideration when a life is negligently taken and just because the father has grief and remorse after the fact does not mean we should forgive the act which caused the tragedy. Is this a accident "No Way" as it has been said that "With great power comes great responsibility" and a firearm has the power to take life so it should be possessed with great responsibility which is in this case Safe handling.
I have always believed that to own a firearm everyone should have to attend a free firearms safety class before being able to purchase a firearm. We do this for hunting in most states and I would suggest it may prevent needless tragedy's like this.
I agree with almost all of this. The only thing is we have to be careful requiring training before exercising a right. The classes would have to be frequent, available on various days and time of day, and widely available. And there would have to be a clause if no class is available for xx days at a convenient time then no longer required. Otherwise the state or feds could restrict who is qualified to offer safety classes, restrict funding, or only offer classes at occasional dates and centralized locations.
Gun owners are not being singled out. People are charged with invol manslaughter or its equivalent all the time for vehicle related deaths. A great example is a distracted driver or a truck driver who tries to drive 24-hours and falls asleep at the wheel. There are also firearms related deaths that do not warrant felony convictions. For example, a freak ricochet, or the case where a guy's friend put on a ski mask and tried to scare him (bad idea) are both cases of accidental death by firearms that should not be charged. It all depends on the person operating the car or weapon in a negligent manner, and failure to follow the basic principles of safety, or leaving a weapon unsecured defines firearm negligence.
Exactly, the only issue here is whether or not the accident involved criminality...From what I've read, it clearly doesn't.
Vague? They were both accidents that resulted in the death of a child, both involved negligence on the part of the operator. We even refer to professional gunslingers as "operators!"
In my estimation, you're being a bit obtuse here, what difference does it make what particular implement that the "operator" was mishandling when the death occurred? Cars kill far more people each year in the USA than do guns, why are negligent gun owners being singled out as somehow "criminally negligent?"
Do you follow now? Its very simple, this guy was negligent, but was he criminally so? If not, the state has no right to intervene punitively, period!
I know a well respected psychologist who hit and killed a 12-year old boy in his Toyota Prius, stone cold sober! Should he be sent to prison, and refused an automobile for the duration of his life?
Barring some criminality being revealed, he should have the same rights as any other free citizen...
YES VERY VAGUE !!!!
HOW did he hit the kid ?
if he was found guilt then yes punishment
if he was not found guilty then no !
if the kid ran out from between the cars and the guy saw it the moment it happened but could not break that is a accident ! most likely not the drivers fault if he was in the speed limit etc..
if the guy was busy texting not watching the road and hit the kid in a cross walk that is negligence and is the drivers fault %100
again you gave no facts no description nothing ! other than a guy hit a kid ? that is so so so so vague
Exactly, the only issue here is whether or not the accident involved criminality...From what I've read, it clearly doesn't.
Read my post above - involuntary manslaughter does not require criminal activity. It only requires that the lawful activity be done in a reckless or negligent manner. Let's see, he points a loaded gun at his son, he pulls the trigger...hmmm.
Exactly, the only issue here is whether or not the accident involved criminality...From what I've read, it clearly doesn't.
Ditto Sensei post above
ask yourself
did the dad act reckless or not use reasonable caution ?
the dad loaded the gun !
the dad never checked the gun !
the dad did not have it secured properly in a holster or case !
the dad pointed the gun at his kid !
the dad pulled the trigger when pointed at the kid !
and now the kid is dead ? not sure how you cant see a accident
any one of those many steps could have been avoided but were not !
I have always believed that to own a firearm everyone should have to attend a free firearms safety class before being able to purchase a firearm. We do this for hunting in most states and I would suggest it may prevent needless tragedy's like this.
A better idea, IMO, would be to require the salesman at the gun store/FFL, to spend a small amount of time with the buyer before they're allowed to leave with their purchase. Run through a quick checklist:
• Manual of arms. Safety, Decocker, slide release. Etc
• Loading/unloading
• Field Strip
• Maint., Lube, care, etc.
Just take 10 minutes with the customer, then wish them happy shooting.
Many gun shops do this anyways, without a law. Or at the very least, they'll ask "Do you have any experience with this weapon system? Do you have any questions about how it works?" Etc
I have always believed that to own a firearm everyone should have to attend a free firearms safety class before being able to purchase a firearm. We do this for hunting in most states and I would suggest it may prevent needless tragedy's like this.
Not that I disagree with the idea, but you understand it won't really be "free" don't you? Hunter safety courses are usually paid for by the cost of the license. Money to pay for the class will have to come from somewhere.
I'm undecided if I'd prefer it be something offered by the local PD as a community program (tax payer funded) or if it should be something offered by the local NRA chapter and be out of pocket. Either way the guys who "already know" get screwed again by the retards as they have to pay for something they understood long ago.
A better idea, IMO, would be to require the salesman at the gun store/FFL, to spend a small amount of time with the buyer before they're allowed to leave with their purchase. Run through a quick checklist:
• Manual of arms. Safety, Decocker, slide release. Etc
• Loading/unloading
• Field Strip
• Maint., Lube, care, etc.
Just take 10 minutes with the customer, then wish them happy shooting.
Many gun shops do this anyways, without a law. Or at the very least, they'll ask "Do you have any experience with this weapon system? Do you have any questions about how it works?" Etc
I can probably think of at least 100 reasons why that is a terrible idea. Among them are:
1. You are assuming a FFL knows what they are doing, are knowledgeable about guns and are safe when it comes to handling them. They sell guns, they don't necessarily know any more than the guy buying them.
2. You have now placed the burden of liability on the FFL. Guess who gets blamed for not teaching adequate "handling" when the next kid gets shot?
3. Big conflict of interest in that you are now having the guy interested in selling you products tell you how to properly handle and maintain your weapon to satisfy a requirement.
4. Customers would have to pay, or the state fund the FFL "10 minute class" otherwise if the FFL has 6 customer per hour he can't do anything else and he is now out of business. If you are expecting a free "mandatory" class it will become "Make sure you read those posters on the way out."
Before you guys get too serious about government mandated or government run safety programs, think about the DMV for a moment. Now imagine they all have a gun.
The logical answer of course is for everyone to educate themselves and seek training as needed. Sadly not everyone is logical and crap like the OP is the result. It's hard to "require" training or instruction as that can quickly become infringement and has a lot of room for abuse.
^. See. That's why I love this forum. Because guys can throw an idea out there with the best of intentions, and someone else can point out the flaws in it, and everybody learns. We're like a think-tank of sorts.
Timely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmj0DLOcdtw
Pass it on and maybe some poor sap will see this and heed it and a life will be saved.
davidjinks
12-12-12, 07:10
No matter how you slice it, everyone loses here. If the DA decides to press this the dad will likely see jail. This is t the first incident of this happening and I'm sure (Unfortunately) it won't be the last.
Not too long ago (Maybe a year or so) there was a shooting in a gunshop not too far from me here in PA. A customer was looking at a display revolver (New out of the box) and shot and killed the gunshop owner.
Someone put a live round in the chamber and then put it back on display. The owner handed to gun to the customer without ever checking it. What's the first thing most people do when they pick up a gun...try the trigger.
It's hard to say if the dad should be sent to prison. Having just killed his own child, maybe that's prison in and of itself. No one here can say if what he did was a criminal act or not. We can surely say (Having the education on how firearms work) that he definitely violated every firearm rule that is known. The end result is that a young child was killed by his father.
I can only imagine the pain and torment that he is going through. That alone doesn't excuse what he has done. However, in the end, what could possibly be his punishment that would send the message home?
Don't take what I am saying as giving this guy a pass. Bottom line is he killed his child. I just don't know if convicting him and sending him to prison would do anything more.
RogerinTPA
12-12-12, 07:39
Perhaps it will make the next guy think about four simple rules.
What if it was a careless welfare parent who didn't take the time to look and drove over their own child and killed it? What about stupid thoughtless Moms who leave babies in the car and they die while they are shopping?
Do you extend to them the same "only an accident" courtesy? Or are the actions "criminally negligent"?
The problem lies in the fact that the average gun owner doesn't know the 4 rules. From what I've seen on ranges over the years, most don't even have a bubba level of firearms safety.
And sometimes the fickle finger of fate simply selects your sorry ass to serve as an object lesson to others in what not to do.
Agreed. Occasionally, society needs a wake up call to the blinding flash of the obvious, which it chose to ignore...
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